On Dec 18, 11:30 pm, Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> ShellyS <shell...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> >> ShellyS <shell...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>
> (This was still lying around here, as I wanted to read it again before
> sending it off. Am still not sure whether the initial chunk is what
> you're talking about.)
>
>
>
> >> [...]
>
> >>>> Can you have a video tape of a movie/series with appropriate
> >>>> scenes run in slow motion? Pause and rewind should be an option
> >>>> anyway. :)
> >>> See, that's the problem. I don't know any action in any movie that
> >>> would fit, short of watching a lot of movies and TV shows instead
> >>> of actually writing, because nothing comes to mind that would be my
> >>> characters in the situation in my story.
>
> >> Hm. What would be your characters in the situation in your story?
>
> >> Let's start with the situation; what is that?
> > Well, there's a hostage situation, then there's another one. I've
> > also got a riot at a political rally. If I could describe the scenes
> > briefly here, I wouldn't be having problems writing them. Although
> > the rally scene worked fairly well the third time I tried it.
>
> Hm. Do you know how they're supposed to end?

No. That's why I write, to find out what happens. And the reason the
third time worked better is because I ended up adding something that
came out of the stuff I added earlier during that revision. So, the
focus got taken off the riot for me, even though I hope, not so much
for the reader, because I don't want the added bit of business to be
too obvious and ruin the surprise/suspense.
>
> Or do you want to let your characters decide the action while you write?
> You normally do the latter, no?

Yeah, the characters tell the story to me, sorta. I know it's me
writing it, but it's from my backbrain, based on the characters I
created. And I can't access that til it's time to write it happening.
>
> Take one of the hostage situations, do you know who's involved?

The protagonist and uh, other characters. In both cases, the hostages
are people he is close to and the hostage taker is a surprise villain
(this is where they are revealed as ruthless, nasty people). The
actions the protag takes depended on what has been happening to that
point, his mental state, and the things I didn't know until I wrote
them. But unlike other scenes, the prose is clumsy. Those are the
scenes that will need the most work, other than the blowing things up
part.
>
> To explain where my thoughts go (and I'm well aware that it may be
> useless to you, but I'd like to get to the bottom of this). If I were to
> do a hostage situation... I already see part of a building that's
> involved. I'd list the characters present that head of to free the
> hostages, and a list of those guarding them. There's the option of them
> ending up fighting at each other, or sneaking up, or indiduals teamed up
> in hand-to-hand combat.

Since the scenes are written and I'm in the second draft, I now know
these things. The first is in a cave underground on Mars and the
second is at a construction site in a Martian underground city. The
characters present are the ones who logically were there based on the
previous scenes: Protag, villain, hostage. First villain is going to
set off a bomb (this needs some work as to what kind of bomb -- I got
help at rec.arts.science) and the second involves a handgun of some
sort (a projectile weapon). There can't be a fight -- as I wrote it,
they couldn't get close enough, not with the hostage between them) and
there was no sneaking up. Both are outright confrontations. They're
both bad guy had one arm holding hostage as shield, in a tight space,
leaving the protag few options. He is armed. What happened was clear
to me as I wrote the scenes (especially the second one). The writing
of the scenes is much less clear (especially the second one which
lacks some of the emotional baggage the second scene has). The scenes
played out the way they had to, as the protag did what he had to do.

>
> Sneaking up is most like non-fast action. It's characters just doing
> things, only different to walking along a path, for example. Important
> is what they watch out for. (And I'd have their names arranged in a
> column, or in whatever order they walk, in my timeline file, to keep
> that straight.) You can add sounds and observations, and smells if you
> want, like in any other scene, plus some internal excitement if that's
> in character.

That's the sort of thing that sounds suspiciously like outlining in a
different format than usual. It would require me to know things before
I know them with no way of knowing if they would make sense once the
characters showed up and the scene started.
>
> Individuals teamed up in hand-to-hand combat is actual fast-action. Of
> course that has to be sparked some way, but until then it's just like
> sneaking up; however do they get into contact with the hostage-takers.
> Again, I'd have their names arranged in my timeline file; who fights
> whom, and how they stand in relation to each other, plus possible
> hostages that get in the way. But the actual fight, I think, would be
> just two people. It would be ok if suddenly a character bumps into the
> viewpoints's back, causing a problem in keeping balance or something; a
> fight is confusing. Alternately you can have your character keep half an
> eye on the surroundings, stepping out of the way. Without need to say
> where the other character came from.

Even were I able to do that do, there's no guarantee I would be able
to write it as well as I can write other types of scenes, which is the
way it's been my experience so far. Action is tough because I can't
see it and I don't have the words to compensate for that lack the way
I do for other scenes.

>
> Shooting would be similar to fighting, only at a distance, and with less
> frequent changes of position of characters. One might move forwards,
> backed by the others, one at a time. That seems easy to keep track of.
> (And once again I'd arrange their names in my timeline file to have that
> straight.)
>

Shooting is harder. There are too many things that can go wrong. Does
the hostage get hit? Is it a kill shot or not? Wounded villains can be
more dangerous than dead or unhurt ones, which is why law enforcement
officials and soldiers, from all I've read, are trained to shoot to
kill. Now that so many police are killing too many unarmed people,
that's being reconsidered. Does the good guy give up his weapon or
does he hold on to it? Does the hostage taker kill the hostage and
lose his/her only bargaining chip or does he/she kill the rescuer? How
this plays out in my stories depends on the personalities of the
characters and the moment they need to act, the events that led to
that point, and so on. Psychologically, it's the most interesting one
to write, which is why I prefer it to other situations. I can
concentrate on the emotional aspect, the mental struggle, and gloss
over the physical actions.

> That doesn't say anything about well readable, of course, but it
> focusses on the positioning and viewpoint. Details can be added as the
> characters are there.

It's the readability that's my problem. Details I don't see are hard
for me to add in. I usually write in layers, so filling in is second
nature, except for action scenes.
>
> >>> I can extrapolate for a lot of things, but not when it comes to
> >>> creative endeavors. And since I need to wait for my characters to
> >>> do what they're going to do and get into the situations that
> >>> require action, what I've seen in movies years ago (I think I saw
> >>> one movie this year) has long since faded from memory. And I have
> >>> the added problem in that I need to know how all this would work
> >>> with the lower gravity on Mars.
>
> >> Imagining them simply lighter doesn't work, I guess.
> > I don't think so. For ex, if someone who isn't used to Mars' gravity
> > tried a kick, would he connect or spin himself around? So, I'm
> > playing it safe and not using action like that. I wish I could get to
> > try out gravity like on Mars, but I don't see that happening anytime
> > soon.
>
> :)
>
> How different is the gravity on Mars to swimming? (Just a thought.)

Beats me. I never learned how to swim. I can barely float. I have this
irrational fear (or maybe it's something else) of putting my head
under water.
>
> Fair ground rides have different stages of 'heaviness'. I wouldn't
> voluntarily go on any (I used to when I was younger though), and by now
> I've seen you wouldn't either. Hm.
>
> >> (Btw, I haven't been to a cinema for years, but do occasionally tape
> >> one or the other movie on TV, then watch it when I feel like it. Far
> >> more series, though. But if you don't like TV, that isn't going to
> >> help.)
> > I love TV. I just couldn't begin to see what I need in what other
> > people have done. Those aren't my characters, after all. I don't know
> > what my characters will do until they do it. It then falls to me to
> > make sure it's readable and makes sense. That's the tough part.
>
> Hm. Tough indeed.
>
> <thinking...>
>
> I seem to automatically evade such stuff. :) (Either one side or the
> other seems to be superior, smartly evading a fight or getting captured.
> Even in the S&E, where there are some battles, they're short and by far
> not every move is mentioned. The exact movements of everyone present
> don't matter. The few times the travellers are attacked before the big
> battle, I didn't even bother with the positioning.)
>
Evasion is my usual choice. I try to keep things small and tight so
the scene is mostly emotion/angst/mental struggle and not so much
physical moves, so that what physical actions there are and are not as
well written might not be too noticeable and hurt the story.

> >>> But that's not the kind of fight scenes or action scenes in my
> >>> story. I'd need the exact same number of characters in the same
> >>> positions my characters would be starting in, in a nearly exact
> >>> setting.
>
> >> I wonder what for. <puzzled> Do you want to describe every move of
> >> every character? Would the viewpoint (if you have only one
> >> viewpoint) even know what the others do?
> > No. I need to know the exact blocking of the moves, so I can pick the
> > points to write and have them all be consistent with the other points
> > I write.
>
> Blocking?

I believe it's a theater or film term. My friend/onetime-collaborator
uses it and she once tried scriptwriting, to the point of actually
getting a TV script produced. She still collects residuals on reruns
for it. It has to do with the placement of the characters and charts
the moves, like choreography I guess. She's really good at it. I'm
not. It's just one area where our skills were complementary and I
really wish her health would let her write with me, but after 6 years,
we gave up on that happening.
>
> What are the other points?

Whatever the moves the characters make will be. Until I try writing a
scene, I don't know what they are.
>
> > And I need to make it readable and interesting. So far, that's the
> > weakest part of my prose.
>
> Ok, that's something I can understand. (See 'rambling', that isn't
> interesting either. :) )

heh
>
> I wonder whether you want to show too much, though.

No. I want to show as little as I can get away with. I think the
amount of detail should be consistent with the rest of the story,
though, so it won't suddenly look like I outlined a scene and forgot
to finish it, or that I told it all rather than showed.
>
> > And the viewpoint character in a hostage situation -- him facing the
> > hostage taker and the hostage who is also visible, for ex -- so yes,
> > the pov character sees all. This isn't a fight scene per se, but it is
> > an action scene. I ended up writing it with the hostage being more
> > active, but prose-wise, it still pretty much sucks. I have to take the
> > bare bones and make that more interesting. Even I find it dull, so I
> > doubt anyone else would think otherwise. ;)
>
> :) I know the feeling.
>
> >> Maybe the questions sound dense, but I don't see what the problem
> >> is. (Sorry.)
> > The problem is that my action scenes read like telling or outlines or
> > bits of a scene but not a scene that flows the way the rest of the
> > story flows.
>
> There are some bits I do that don't read well either.
>
I just don't want these 2 key scenes to drag down the rest of the
story. Even with the bits the beta readers thought needed work, most
enjoyed the story, so that's encouraging.

> > And because I suck at interesting bits for such scenes, they tend to
> > be very basic and very similar to each other, whereas my other scenes
> > have all sorts of different, (I hope) interesting bits to them.
>
> Would you mind emailing me an example of each?

I'll have to find where they are in the current file, but sure. The
first is still bordering on inaccuracies, though, and I won't get to
the revision for a while as I'm going beginning to end, again.
>
> What do you think are the interesting bits in an action scene?
>

The ones I've read that I really enjoy make me feel breathless, like
I'm there and caught up in it all. The pacing is faster than I'm able
to manage. I couldn't pick out specifics as each scene is different.
It's the way authors write them. Similar to how sex scenes can be
written well or silly. ;)

(snip)
>
-- Shelly

ShellyS <shelly.s@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>> ShellyS <shell...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:

>>>> Let's start with the situation; what is that?

>>> Well, there's a hostage situation, then there's another one. I've
>>> also got a riot at a political rally. If I could describe the
>>> scenes briefly here, I wouldn't be having problems writing them.
>>> Although the rally scene worked fairly well the third time I tried
>>> it.
>>
>> Hm. Do you know how they're supposed to end?

> No. That's why I write, to find out what happens.

:) I wanted to say that's the same for me. But it occurs to me that I
know how I want a fight to end, or at least my backbrain has those
plans. (It's part of how I want the world to be.)

(I get an odd idea of an echo from the last post; characters and plots,
concerning the bad guys in the S&E. Plus the idea that it makes utter
sense for them to be... Let's talk about that if you reach that point
and complain. :) That, also re: last post, is an insight that agrees
with the whole amorphous lump. I've made a note and hope I still
understand it later.)

> And the reason the third time worked better is because I ended up
> adding something that came out of the stuff I added earlier during
> that revision. So, the focus got taken off the riot for me, even
> though I hope, not so much for the reader, because I don't want the
> added bit of business to be too obvious and ruin the
> surprise/suspense.

Understandable.

>> Or do you want to let your characters decide the action while you
>> write? You normally do the latter, no?

> Yeah, the characters tell the story to me, sorta. I know it's me
> writing it, but it's from my backbrain, based on the characters I
> created. And I can't access that til it's time to write it happening.

:) Makes perfect sense to me.

I keep getting the urge to say; "I didn't make it up!" :) (The
characters make themselves while writing, too.)

>> Take one of the hostage situations, do you know who's involved?

> The protagonist and uh, other characters. In both cases, the hostages
> are people he is close to and the hostage taker is a surprise villain
> (this is where they are revealed as ruthless, nasty people). The
> actions the protag takes depended on what has been happening to that
> point, his mental state, and the things I didn't know until I wrote
> them. But unlike other scenes, the prose is clumsy. Those are the
> scenes that will need the most work, other than the blowing things up
> part.

Hm. (So far I have no insight on why the prose is clumsy.)

>> To explain where my thoughts go (and I'm well aware that it may be
>> useless to you, but I'd like to get to the bottom of this). If I
>> were to do a hostage situation... I already see part of a building
>> that's involved. I'd list the characters present that head of to
>> free the hostages, and a list of those guarding them. There's the
>> option of them ending up fighting at each other, or sneaking up, or
>> indiduals teamed up in hand-to-hand combat.

> Since the scenes are written and I'm in the second draft, I now know
> these things.

That's not useful for future action scenes, is it?

Would you be interested in doing a new action scene, step by step? (Like
an excercise, nothing from any existing story - I know that might sound
boring.)

Perhaps we could work out a procedure that works, or something.

(I remember what brought me back to rasfc was wondering how to do an
action scene. I lacked imagination for what could happen at all, with
some big black cat that's taken on a trip in the ME. Writing the damn
thing, once I had a starting point, wasn't that difficult. I just
followed the cat - with the viewpoint character - and just got stopped a
few times wondering 'what now', again. In the end, the cat gets shown to
shred some bad person, showing how well it obeys certain commands, the
viewpoint character who set the cat to attack the other person is shown
to treat the matter coldly calculating, while being disheartened about
something else, saying something about him. It still sort of misses a
purpose for the cat, though. <sigh>)

> The first is in a cave underground on Mars and the second is at a
> construction site in a Martian underground city. The characters
> present are the ones who logically were there based on the previous
> scenes: Protag, villain, hostage. First villain is going to set off a
> bomb (this needs some work as to what kind of bomb -- I got help at
> rec.arts.science) and the second involves a handgun of some sort (a
> projectile weapon). There can't be a fight -- as I wrote it, they
> couldn't get close enough, not with the hostage between them) and
> there was no sneaking up.

So it's not really all that fast action, but just interaction?

Perhaps it's the mindset; you expect action. What if you treat it like
any other scene? (That's a wild guess.)

> Both are outright confrontations. They're both bad guy had one arm
> holding hostage as shield, in a tight space, leaving the protag few
> options. He is armed. What happened was clear to me as I wrote the
> scenes (especially the second one). The writing of the scenes is much
> less clear (especially the second one which lacks some of the
> emotional baggage the second scene has). The scenes played out the way
> they had to, as the protag did what he had to do.

Hm. So the problem is it's unclear, and one lacking some emotions that
should be there?

>> Sneaking up is most like non-fast action. It's characters just doing
>> things, only different to walking along a path, for example.
>> Important is what they watch out for. (And I'd have their names
>> arranged in a column, or in whatever order they walk, in my timeline
>> file, to keep that straight.) You can add sounds and observations,
>> and smells if you want, like in any other scene, plus some internal
>> excitement if that's in character.

> That's the sort of thing that sounds suspiciously like outlining in a
> different format than usual.

The only thing I've got in a different file is the order of the
characters, once I see them (or decided on it), to keep that straight.
The rest comes while writing. That's why I said it's just like any other
scene; you can add whatever you write about in other scenes, too. Let
the characters show you.

If they, were, for example, sitting in a coffee shop, and one got up to
get a new coffee, would you have difficulties keeping him out of bumping
into other guests?

> It would require me to know things before I know them with no way of
> knowing if they would make sense once the characters showed up and the
> scene started.

I'd put the order/arrangements of names down after the scene started. :)
I see, for example, how they walk through a cave, and list their names
in my timeline file, to keep straight who is near enough to be talking
to whom, or offer a pat to someone. (The one walking first isn't going
to be able to give the last guy a pat. :) )

>> Individuals teamed up in hand-to-hand combat is actual fast-action.
>> Of course that has to be sparked some way, but until then it's just
>> like sneaking up; however do they get into contact with the
>> hostage-takers. Again, I'd have their names arranged in my timeline
>> file; who fights whom, and how they stand in relation to each other,
>> plus possible hostages that get in the way. But the actual fight, I
>> think, would be just two people. It would be ok if suddenly a
>> character bumps into the viewpoints's back, causing a problem in
>> keeping balance or something; a fight is confusing. Alternately you
>> can have your character keep half an eye on the surroundings,
>> stepping out of the way. Without need to say where the other
>> character came from.

> Even were I able to do that do, there's no guarantee I would be able
> to write it as well as I can write other types of scenes, which is
> the way it's been my experience so far. Action is tough because I
> can't see it and I don't have the words to compensate for that lack
> the way I do for other scenes.

Hm. Interesting. How do you compensate in other scenes?

>> Shooting would be similar to fighting, only at a distance, and with
>> less frequent changes of position of characters. One might move
>> forwards, backed by the others, one at a time. That seems easy to
>> keep track of. (And once again I'd arrange their names in my
>> timeline file to have that straight.)

> Shooting is harder. There are too many things that can go wrong. Does
> the hostage get hit?

You'll see when it happens. :) (Or afterwards find it happened.)

At least I would. :)

> Is it a kill shot or not?

Wouldn't the characters (or viewpoint) show you when one looks at the
hostage? (That's where keeping their positions straight comes in handy;
you know whether the hostage is in the field of vision, or whether the
viewpoint has to be free to look first. That of course can be done with
your action figures as well as in a file with just the names arranged in
some manner.)

> Wounded villains can be more dangerous than dead or unhurt ones, which
> is why law enforcement officials and soldiers, from all I've read, are
> trained to shoot to kill. Now that so many police are killing too many
> unarmed people, that's being reconsidered. Does the good guy give up
> his weapon or does he hold on to it? Does the hostage taker kill the
> hostage and lose his/her only bargaining chip or does he/she kill the
> rescuer? How this plays out in my stories depends on the personalities
> of the characters and the moment they need to act, the events that led
> to that point, and so on.

<puzzled> So why not just write what happens, follow the characters? Or
do you have a 'what now?' problem, too?

> Psychologically, it's the most interesting one to write, which is why
> I prefer it to other situations. I can concentrate on the emotional
> aspect, the mental struggle, and gloss over the physical actions.

Hm. I have quite a number of emotional stuff without any action in
sight. :) (The S&E offers plenty of trauma due to the bad guys, and even
one odd thing from some 'native accident plus different tribes'
nature'.)

>> That doesn't say anything about well readable, of course, but it
>> focusses on the positioning and viewpoint. Details can be added as
>> the characters are there.

> It's the readability that's my problem. Details I don't see are hard
> for me to add in. I usually write in layers, so filling in is second
> nature, except for action scenes.

Hm. (For me, there's no layering. Most of the S&E bits you read, for
example, are still as first written, save typoes and 'the the' and other
funny things that creep in.)

Is the problem that you don't know what they could be aware of, focussed
on the opponent? Or what they would take notice of?

I again wonder where the difference is to other scenes.

>>>> Imagining them simply lighter doesn't work, I guess.

>>> I don't think so. For ex, if someone who isn't used to Mars'
>>> gravity tried a kick, would he connect or spin himself around? So,
>>> I'm playing it safe and not using action like that. I wish I could
>>> get to try out gravity like on Mars, but I don't see that happening
>>> anytime soon.
>>
>> :)
>>
>> How different is the gravity on Mars to swimming? (Just a thought.)

> Beats me. I never learned how to swim. I can barely float. I have
> this irrational fear (or maybe it's something else) of putting my
> head under water.

Ow.

I wouldn't try rolls (I've got no sense of orientation at all), but
diving is ok, even though I nearly drowned once as a kid before I
learned to swim - water is just something I'm not afraid of at all. (But
some of my characters can't swim either, in both bigger stories. Perhaps
you're even better suited to sympathise with them in the S&E. :) )

>>> I love TV. I just couldn't begin to see what I need in what other
>>> people have done. Those aren't my characters, after all. I don't
>>> know what my characters will do until they do it. It then falls to
>>> me to make sure it's readable and makes sense. That's the tough
>>> part.
>>
>> Hm. Tough indeed.
>>
>> <thinking...>
>>
>> I seem to automatically evade such stuff. :) (Either one side or the
>> other seems to be superior, smartly evading a fight or getting
>> captured. Even in the S&E, where there are some battles, they're
>> short and by far not every move is mentioned. The exact movements of
>> everyone present don't matter. The few times the travellers are
>> attacked before the big battle, I didn't even bother with the
>> positioning.)

Btw, reading the 0007 scene before sending it off, I remembered being
very pleased with myself after writing it, at how I evaded an action
scene. <g>

> Evasion is my usual choice. I try to keep things small and tight so
> the scene is mostly emotion/angst/mental struggle and not so much
> physical moves, so that what physical actions there are and are not
> as well written might not be too noticeable and hurt the story.

I'm coming to think that maybe your approach is better. (My own action
scenes lack the emotional stuff that's all over the place elsewhere.)

>>>> I wonder what for. <puzzled> Do you want to describe every move of
>>>> every character? Would the viewpoint (if you have only one
>>>> viewpoint) even know what the others do?

>>> No. I need to know the exact blocking of the moves, so I can pick
>>> the points to write and have them all be consistent with the other
>>> points I write.
>>
>> Blocking?

> I believe it's a theater or film term. My friend/onetime-collaborator
> uses it and she once tried scriptwriting, to the point of actually
> getting a TV script produced. She still collects residuals on reruns
> for it.

Cool.

> It has to do with the placement of the characters and charts
> the moves, like choreography I guess. She's really good at it. I'm
> not. It's just one area where our skills were complementary and I
> really wish her health would let her write with me, but after 6
> years, we gave up on that happening.

That's sad.

>> What are the other points?

> Whatever the moves the characters make will be. Until I try writing a
> scene, I don't know what they are.

We've got that in common. :) (Perhaps that's why it's so difficult for
me to see what the problem is.)

>> I wonder whether you want to show too much, though.

> No. I want to show as little as I can get away with. I think the
> amount of detail should be consistent with the rest of the story,
> though, so it won't suddenly look like I outlined a scene and forgot
> to finish it, or that I told it all rather than showed.

Understandable. (Just not the problem. <sigh> Sorry.)

>>> And because I suck at interesting bits for such scenes, they tend
>>> to be very basic and very similar to each other, whereas my other
>>> scenes have all sorts of different, (I hope) interesting bits to
>>> them.
>>
>> Would you mind emailing me an example of each?

> I'll have to find where they are in the current file, but sure. The
> first is still bordering on inaccuracies, though, and I won't get to
> the revision for a while as I'm going beginning to end, again.

So send it whenever it suits you best. :)

A normal scene, for comparison, might help understanding, too.

>> What do you think are the interesting bits in an action scene?

> The ones I've read that I really enjoy make me feel breathless, like
> I'm there and caught up in it all. The pacing is faster than I'm able
> to manage. I couldn't pick out specifics as each scene is different.
> It's the way authors write them. Similar to how sex scenes can be
> written well or silly. ;)

:)

Perhaps that's the problem; I don't find action scenes particularly
interesting, and remember at least one time looking at later pages to
see who survived.

Perhaps someone else is reading along, though, and can glean more from
your further explanations. (I'm still trying to pinpoint the problem;
I'd like to understand or even just accidentally ask the right
question.)

--
Tina
Reading: Seasons&Elements 1, Controlled by Magic: 196213 words
WISuspension: Magic Earth series
Posted to Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition.

On Dec 25, 12:37 pm, Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> ShellyS <shell...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> >> ShellyS <shell...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> >>>> Let's start with the situation; what is that?
> >>> Well, there's a hostage situation, then there's another one. I've
> >>> also got a riot at a political rally. If I could describe the
> >>> scenes briefly here, I wouldn't be having problems writing them.
> >>> Although the rally scene worked fairly well the third time I tried
> >>> it.
>
> >> Hm. Do you know how they're supposed to end?
> > No. That's why I write, to find out what happens.
>
> :) I wanted to say that's the same for me. But it occurs to me that I
> know how I want a fight to end, or at least my backbrain has those
> plans. (It's part of how I want the world to be.)

My backbrain controls the characters, not what will happen. So, the
characters do their thing and what happens happens based on their
personalities and little obstacles my backbrain tosses into the mix,
like a natural disaster, perhaps, or someone else showing up
unexpectedly, although that would be in keeping with that newcomer who
might be a completely new character to the story at that point. I love
when my backbrain surprises me like that.

When I wrote the rally scene the first time, I knew there might be a
shooting because that had been hinted at in an earlier scene, but
until I wrote the rally scene itself, I didn't know if anyone would
die. And even then, once he'd been shot, I didn't know if he died
until the next scene when it was reported he was being treated for a
minor wound. If he'd died, the story would've veered off in a
direction much different than what I ended up with, I'm sure.

>
> (I get an odd idea of an echo from the last post; characters and plots,
> concerning the bad guys in the S&E. Plus the idea that it makes utter
> sense for them to be... Let's talk about that if you reach that point
> and complain. :) That, also re: last post, is an insight that agrees
> with the whole amorphous lump. I've made a note and hope I still
> understand it later.)
>

OK.

> > And the reason the third time worked better is because I ended up
> > adding something that came out of the stuff I added earlier during
> > that revision. So, the focus got taken off the riot for me, even
> > though I hope, not so much for the reader, because I don't want the
> > added bit of business to be too obvious and ruin the
> > surprise/suspense.
>
> Understandable.
>
> >> Or do you want to let your characters decide the action while you
> >> write? You normally do the latter, no?
> > Yeah, the characters tell the story to me, sorta. I know it's me
> > writing it, but it's from my backbrain, based on the characters I
> > created. And I can't access that til it's time to write it happening.
>
> :) Makes perfect sense to me.
>
> I keep getting the urge to say; "I didn't make it up!" :) (The
> characters make themselves while writing, too.)
>

I know it's that I can't access the info except when my backbrain
allows it: at writing time, in the shower, and when I'm in bed. Which
is why notepads are kept at the ready for jotting down things I don't
want to forget, because once my backbrain tells me something, it's
gone. And over the years, I've learned how to incorporate the notes
either into the actual writing or to read them as a way of reminding
my backbrain what it was working on.

> >> Take one of the hostage situations, do you know who's involved?
> > The protagonist and uh, other characters. In both cases, the hostages
> > are people he is close to and the hostage taker is a surprise villain
> > (this is where they are revealed as ruthless, nasty people). The
> > actions the protag takes depended on what has been happening to that
> > point, his mental state, and the things I didn't know until I wrote
> > them. But unlike other scenes, the prose is clumsy. Those are the
> > scenes that will need the most work, other than the blowing things up
> > part.
>
> Hm. (So far I have no insight on why the prose is clumsy.)
>

It's because I don't visualize and unlike other scenes where I can
pull sufficient words out to show what's happening, I don't have all
the right words for action. My reading vocabulary is my largest, my
speaking vocabulary is my smallest, and my writing vocabulary is in
the middle somewhere, but it does have its deficiencies and one reason
I can fall into cliches, which tend to be more obvious in action
scenes, it seems.

> >> To explain where my thoughts go (and I'm well aware that it may be
> >> useless to you, but I'd like to get to the bottom of this). If I
> >> were to do a hostage situation... I already see part of a building
> >> that's involved. I'd list the characters present that head of to
> >> free the hostages, and a list of those guarding them. There's the
> >> option of them ending up fighting at each other, or sneaking up, or
> >> indiduals teamed up in hand-to-hand combat.
> > Since the scenes are written and I'm in the second draft, I now know
> > these things.
>
> That's not useful for future action scenes, is it?
>

No. ;) Because, until I write it, I don't know it.

> Would you be interested in doing a new action scene, step by step? (Like
> an excercise, nothing from any existing story - I know that might sound
> boring.)
>

I've never been able to do writing exercises because there's nothing
"real" at stake. I can write because the stories are to me real. To do
an exercise like that, I'd have to take the time to create a new set
of characters (usually takes me 2-4 weeks to work up characters) and
come up with a situation I want to write, ie another story! ;)

> Perhaps we could work out a procedure that works, or something.
>
(snip)

>
> > The first is in a cave underground on Mars and the second is at a
> > construction site in a Martian underground city. The characters
> > present are the ones who logically were there based on the previous
> > scenes: Protag, villain, hostage. First villain is going to set off a
> > bomb (this needs some work as to what kind of bomb -- I got help at
> > rec.arts.science) and the second involves a handgun of some sort (a
> > projectile weapon). There can't be a fight -- as I wrote it, they
> > couldn't get close enough, not with the hostage between them) and
> > there was no sneaking up.
>
> So it's not really all that fast action, but just interaction?
>

Not fast, no. But tense. It's supposed to be tense.

> Perhaps it's the mindset; you expect action. What if you treat it like
> any other scene? (That's a wild guess.)
>

I don't think fighting kind of action. To me, action is everything
other than talking or walking or sitting around eating while
talking. ;)

> > Both are outright confrontations. They're both bad guy had one arm
> > holding hostage as shield, in a tight space, leaving the protag few
> > options. He is armed. What happened was clear to me as I wrote the
> > scenes (especially the second one). The writing of the scenes is much
> > less clear (especially the second one which lacks some of the
> > emotional baggage the second scene has). The scenes played out the way
> > they had to, as the protag did what he had to do.
>
> Hm. So the problem is it's unclear, and one lacking some emotions that
> should be there?
>

The problem is the words are dull, pedestrian.

> >> Sneaking up is most like non-fast action. It's characters just doing
> >> things, only different to walking along a path, for example.
> >> Important is what they watch out for. (And I'd have their names
> >> arranged in a column, or in whatever order they walk, in my timeline
> >> file, to keep that straight.) You can add sounds and observations,
> >> and smells if you want, like in any other scene, plus some internal
> >> excitement if that's in character.
> > That's the sort of thing that sounds suspiciously like outlining in a
> > different format than usual.
>
> The only thing I've got in a different file is the order of the
> characters, once I see them (or decided on it), to keep that straight.
> The rest comes while writing. That's why I said it's just like any other
> scene; you can add whatever you write about in other scenes, too. Let
> the characters show you.
>

The characters played out the scenes. Now I have to revise the words
so they're interesting to read. Other scenes don't need as much word
revision as those scenes do.

> If they, were, for example, sitting in a coffee shop, and one got up to
> get a new coffee, would you have difficulties keeping him out of bumping
> into other guests?
>

Not a problem. I don't show the other characters. I focus on what's
important.

> > It would require me to know things before I know them with no way of
> > knowing if they would make sense once the characters showed up and the
> > scene started.
>
> I'd put the order/arrangements of names down after the scene started. :)
> I see, for example, how they walk through a cave, and list their names
> in my timeline file, to keep straight who is near enough to be talking
> to whom, or offer a pat to someone. (The one walking first isn't going
> to be able to give the last guy a pat. :) )
>
>
>
> >> Individuals teamed up in hand-to-hand combat is actual fast-action.
> >> Of course that has to be sparked some way, but until then it's just
> >> like sneaking up; however do they get into contact with the
> >> hostage-takers. Again, I'd have their names arranged in my timeline
> >> file; who fights whom, and how they stand in relation to each other,
> >> plus possible hostages that get in the way. But the actual fight, I
> >> think, would be just two people. It would be ok if suddenly a
> >> character bumps into the viewpoints's back, causing a problem in
> >> keeping balance or something; a fight is confusing. Alternately you
> >> can have your character keep half an eye on the surroundings,
> >> stepping out of the way. Without need to say where the other
> >> character came from.
> > Even were I able to do that do, there's no guarantee I would be able
> > to write it as well as I can write other types of scenes, which is
> > the way it's been my experience so far. Action is tough because I
> > can't see it and I don't have the words to compensate for that lack
> > the way I do for other scenes.
>
> Hm. Interesting. How do you compensate in other scenes?

I don't have to compensate for it. I know what it's like to eat and
walk and such. ;) I don't have to visualize the more mundane, ordinary
aspects of life and I mostly have the words for that.

>
> >> Shooting would be similar to fighting, only at a distance, and with
> >> less frequent changes of position of characters. One might move
> >> forwards, backed by the others, one at a time. That seems easy to
> >> keep track of. (And once again I'd arrange their names in my
> >> timeline file to have that straight.)
> > Shooting is harder. There are too many things that can go wrong. Does
> > the hostage get hit?
>
> You'll see when it happens. :) (Or afterwards find it happened.)
>
> At least I would. :)
>
> > Is it a kill shot or not?
>
> Wouldn't the characters (or viewpoint) show you when one looks at the
> hostage? (That's where keeping their positions straight comes in handy;
> you know whether the hostage is in the field of vision, or whether the
> viewpoint has to be free to look first. That of course can be done with
> your action figures as well as in a file with just the names arranged in
> some manner.)
>

I'm not shown anything. I don't visualize. And unless I'm put in the
situation, I won't have experience to fall back on in the hopes that
would give me better words to use. I don't want that experience,
actually. ;)

> > Wounded villains can be more dangerous than dead or unhurt ones, which
> > is why law enforcement officials and soldiers, from all I've read, are
> > trained to shoot to kill. Now that so many police are killing too many
> > unarmed people, that's being reconsidered. Does the good guy give up
> > his weapon or does he hold on to it? Does the hostage taker kill the
> > hostage and lose his/her only bargaining chip or does he/she kill the
> > rescuer? How this plays out in my stories depends on the personalities
> > of the characters and the moment they need to act, the events that led
> > to that point, and so on.
>
> <puzzled> So why not just write what happens, follow the characters? Or
> do you have a 'what now?' problem, too?
>

I can do all the emotional, psychological stuff. It's the boring
writing of the movements of the characters I need to improve, so the
prose holds up with the rest of the story. Right now, there's a dip in
the writing level that bugs me because it brings things down a notch
or two instead of ratcheting up the suspense as it should.

> > Psychologically, it's the most interesting one to write, which is why
> > I prefer it to other situations. I can concentrate on the
>
> ...
>
> read more »
hmmmmm.... A continuation. I didn't realize, and I don't want to lose
this, so I'll answer separately.

-- Shelly

On Dec 25, 12:37 pm, Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> ShellyS <shell...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> >> ShellyS <shell...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Tina_H...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>
>
(snipped the stuff I answered in the first round, and of course, I
forgot where I left off)

> >> That doesn't say anything about well readable, of course, but it
> >> focusses on the positioning and viewpoint. Details can be added as
> >> the characters are there.
> > It's the readability that's my problem. Details I don't see are hard
> > for me to add in. I usually write in layers, so filling in is second
> > nature, except for action scenes.
>
> Hm. (For me, there's no layering. Most of the S&E bits you read, for  
> example, are still as first written, save typoes and 'the the' and other  
> funny things that creep in.)
>

Sometimes, I get the whole thing mostly at once. Other times, I need
to just get the action down and I can fill in the descriptions later.
That's because I often think faster than I can type.

> Is the problem that you don't know what they could be aware of, focussed  
> on the opponent? Or what they would take notice of?
>

No, it's because the words to describe someone sitting and eating and
having a conversation aren't usually good enough for tense, hostage-
taking situations and other action type of scenes. If I'm boring
myself, I'll likely bore readers. ;)


> I again wonder where the difference is to other scenes.
>
(snip)
>

>
> Btw, reading the 0007 scene before sending it off, I remembered being  
> very pleased with myself after writing it, at how I evaded an action  
> scene. <g>

lol. I'm writing suspense. I don't want to avoid action scenes. As a
reader, I often feel cheated when things happen off page. A recent
comic book I read did that repeatedly. There were plenty of fight
scenes, but the main, important scenes happened off the page and I
wasn't the only reader disappointed.

>
> > Evasion is my usual choice. I try to keep things small and tight so
> > the scene is mostly emotion/angst/mental struggle and not so much
> > physical moves, so that what physical actions there are and are not
> > as well written might not be too noticeable and hurt the story.
>
> I'm coming to think that maybe your approach is better. (My own action  
> scenes lack the emotional stuff that's all over the place elsewhere.)

For me, it's what I think I'm better at writing, but I do want to grow
as a writer and that means getting better at the more physical stuff.
If I can see or get a feel of the physical better, maybe I can find
better words for that.

>
(snip)
>

>
> >> What are the other points?
> > Whatever the moves the characters make will be. Until I try writing a
> > scene, I don't know what they are.
>
> We've got that in common. :) (Perhaps that's why it's so difficult for  
> me to see what the problem is.)

Maybe. :)

>
> >> I wonder whether you want to show too much, though.
> > No. I want to show as little as I can get away with. I think the
> > amount of detail should be consistent with the rest of the story,
> > though, so it won't suddenly look like I outlined a scene and forgot
> > to finish it, or that I told it all rather than showed.
>
> Understandable. (Just not the problem. <sigh> Sorry.)

I don't expect anyone to magically solve the problem. It might just
need a lot of practice, but if I'm ever going to finish the WIR and
submit it, I don't have the luxury of much more time for
practicing. ;)

>
> >>> And because I suck at interesting bits for such scenes, they tend
> >>> to be very basic and very similar to each other, whereas my other
> >>> scenes have all sorts of different, (I hope) interesting bits to
> >>> them.
>
> >> Would you mind emailing me an example of each?
> > I'll have to find where they are in the current file, but sure. The
> > first is still bordering on inaccuracies, though, and I won't get to
> > the revision for a while as I'm going beginning to end, again.
>
> So send it whenever it suits you best. :)

OK.
>
> A normal scene, for comparison, might help understanding, too.
>
> >> What do you think are the interesting bits in an action scene?
> > The ones I've read that I really enjoy make me feel breathless, like
> > I'm there and caught up in it all. The pacing is faster than I'm able
> > to manage. I couldn't pick out specifics as each scene is different.
> > It's the way authors write them. Similar to how sex scenes can be
> > written well or silly. ;)
>
> :)
>
> Perhaps that's the problem; I don't find action scenes particularly  
> interesting, and remember at least one time looking at later pages to  
> see who survived.
>

I read a lot of suspense thriller type books. Some are SF and some
aren't. I think I pretty much grew up with the action/adventure genre
as much as I did SF. I like the plotting of thrillers, trying to
figure things out and I write that way, so that fits well together.

> Perhaps someone else is reading along, though, and can glean more from  
> your further explanations. (I'm still trying to pinpoint the problem;  
> I'd like to understand or even just accidentally ask the right  
> question.)
>

Some of this I answered in my Part 1 answer to this post. I think it's
largely a matter of vocabulary and pacing, actually.
> --

-- Shelly