In article <87tzmevj6u.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>,
Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote:
>
>(It may be the case that she *prefers* not to write fiction because
>she has limited energy and prefers to spend it on Usenet, Hal, and
>cats, but that's also a far cry from being *unable* to write fiction,
>and it's also not what she's been complaining of.)

It's weirder than that. I can write a Usenet post because all I
have to do is type something, hit 's' and send it out upon an
unprotected universe. If I try to write fiction I have to
contemplate sending it out into a much more difficult environment,
that of editors and (ultimately) paying readers. Considering
that the last several things I've written haven't been good
enough to make it in that environment, even after they'd reached
the Schroedinger's-cat stage where they were simultaneously the
best I could do and so awful I couldn't stand to touch 'em any
more.... by now every sentence, every phrase, comes up against
"wait a minute, that isn't good enough, that wasn't good enough
LAST time," and it gets tossed back into the stewpot and I try to
fish around for something better and don't find it.

I don't think it's the CFS directly, though that keeps me from
having much energy and leaves me with a VERY short attention span
-- I spend most of my waking hours reading, but reading two or
three books at a time, all of which I have read before.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

On Dec 19, 7:57 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <87tzmevj6u....@mithril.chromatico.net>,
> Charlton Wilbur <cwil...@chromatico.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Considering
> that the last several things I've written haven't been good
> enough to make it in that environment, even after they'd reached
> the Schroedinger's-cat stage where they were simultaneously the
> best I could do and so awful I couldn't stand to touch 'em any
> more.... by now every sentence, every phrase, comes up against
> "wait a minute, that isn't good enough, that wasn't good enough
> LAST time," and it gets tossed back into the stewpot and I try to
> fish around for something better and don't find it.

This does sound a very strong case for murdering your internal critic.
Didn't you write a lot when you did that online thing? Was that
because it wasn't published in the formal sense? Maybe you could do
that again or publish on a web page until you get your confidence
back?

Nicky

> I don't think it's the CFS directly, though that keeps me from
> having much energy and leaves me with a VERY short attention span
> -- I spend most of my waking hours reading, but reading two or
> three books at a time, all of which I have read before.
>
That sounds fun.

Nicky
> Albany, California
> djhe...@kithrup.com

In article <1t79f1z7z347g$.1s2ij1fdz6umt.dlg@40tude.net>,
Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:55:50 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
><djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtBE52.5A6@kithrup.com>
>in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
>> In article <4960cf05-cfc6-49c4-8267-2e95939ae478@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>> Nicky <nicky.matthews@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>> This does sound a very strong case for murdering your
>>> internal critic.
>
>> If I murder him, and if I then produce lots of verbiage,
>> and then that verbiage doesn't sell because it's lousy, I
>> am no better off than I was. Worse, in fact, because now
>> I'm perceived as somebody who writes lousy verbiage, like
>> wossname with the Rockoids.
>
>Not by those of us who have no trouble recognizing lousy
>verbiage and unsalable (or at least unsold) verbiage as
>distinct categories. There are of course stories that are
>in both categories at once, but I can readily name stories
>that in my view prove that neither category is a subset of
>the other.

Hm. You would have to give me some examples. From where I sit,
if it hasn't sold (after repeated attempts on the part of a very
patient agent), then it's lousy.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:01:59 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtBH7B.987@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:

> In article <1t79f1z7z347g$.1s2ij1fdz6umt.dlg@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:55:50 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
>><djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtBE52.5A6@kithrup.com>
>>in rec.arts.sf.composition:

>>> In article <4960cf05-cfc6-49c4-8267-2e95939ae478@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Nicky <nicky.matthews@btinternet.com> wrote:

>>[...]

>>>> This does sound a very strong case for murdering your
>>>> internal critic.

>>> If I murder him, and if I then produce lots of verbiage,
>>> and then that verbiage doesn't sell because it's lousy, I
>>> am no better off than I was. Worse, in fact, because now
>>> I'm perceived as somebody who writes lousy verbiage, like
>>> wossname with the Rockoids.

>>Not by those of us who have no trouble recognizing lousy
>>verbiage and unsalable (or at least unsold) verbiage as
>>distinct categories. There are of course stories that are
>>in both categories at once, but I can readily name stories
>>that in my view prove that neither category is a subset of
>>the other.

> Hm. You would have to give me some examples.

Graydon's Doorstop. Michelle's _Cantata in Coral and
Ivory_. Both good, but both highly idiosyncratic.
(Presumably I needn't give examples of lousy verbiage that
has been published!)

[...]

Brian

In article <4lajm3thueo12gddhacaj1ho0jrkc0ml8f@4ax.com>,
Marilee J. Layman <marilee@mjlayman.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:55:50 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <4960cf05-cfc6-49c4-8267-2e95939ae478@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>>Nicky <nicky.matthews@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On Dec 19, 7:57 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>>> In article <87tzmevj6u....@mithril.chromatico.net>,
>>>> Charlton Wilbur <cwil...@chromatico.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Considering
>>>> that the last several things I've written haven't been good
>>>> enough to make it in that environment, even after they'd reached
>>>> the Schroedinger's-cat stage where they were simultaneously the
>>>> best I could do and so awful I couldn't stand to touch 'em any
>>>> more.... by now every sentence, every phrase, comes up against
>>>> "wait a minute, that isn't good enough, that wasn't good enough
>>>> LAST time," and it gets tossed back into the stewpot and I try to
>>>> fish around for something better and don't find it.
>>>
>>>This does sound a very strong case for murdering your internal critic.
>>
>>If I murder him, and if I then produce lots of verbiage, and then
>>that verbiage doesn't sell because it's lousy, I am no better off
>>than I was. Worse, in fact, because now I'm perceived as
>>somebody who writes lousy verbiage, like wossname with the
>>[redacted]
>
>This is why you write and send it to some of us, not out to the
>public.

Send how? See below.

> After we read it, and you decide how to make changes, *then*
>it goes to the publisher.
>
>You know, I still have a folder here on Agent for _Pastures New_, and
>I never got to read it. It got lost somewhere on the way.

Ohhhh yes. I was wondering about mentioning that. I printed
out, I think, five copies, and didn't get anywhere much because
(a) people didn't forward the copies when they were supposed to
[sometimes because they moved and lost 'em], and (b) even those
who had read them didn't SAY anything because Oh horrors, they
wouldn't want to commit SPOILERS for those who hadn't read it
yet. With the result that I got no comments at all except from
Helen, who sent me some interesting remarks in private email.

It was very kind of Irina to put together a mailing list for
prospective readers of _PN_ to comment, but since no one was
willing to say anything on the list until everyone had read the
book, which never happened, I don't want to go that way again.

I am also not going to try sending paper printouts out into the
uncharted wilderness, either.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

In article <JtBH7B.987@kithrup.com>,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> Hm. You would have to give me some examples. From where I sit,
> if it hasn't sold (after repeated attempts on the part of a very
> patient agent), then it's lousy.
>

It's nonfiction, not fiction, but _Future Imperfect_, which should be
coming out sometime this summer, was in the hands of a competent agent
for years without finding a publisher. Eventually I happened to be
reviewing something for a publisher, the editor I was corresponding with
asked me if I had anything currently, I pointed him at the webbed draft,
and his (and the firm's) response was quite enthusiastic.

I suspect that with fiction as well, it's sometimes a matter of finding
the particular publisher who likes the kind of thing you want to write.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now

In article <JtBruH.MC7@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <fkcb6u$rs7$1@gnus01.u.washington.edu>,
>Mary K. Kuhner <mkkuhner@kingman.gs.washington.edu> wrote:

> (I wish
>>I had a publication record like that....)

>But it consists almost entirely of sales to one person, whose
>standards (as I've said) were rather bizarre and not very high.

Meh. For how many years did she run a successful magazine?
Magazines fold like napkins every month; if she made it work,
she had tastes that clicked with enough readership to make it
work.

You're doing something here that I also do, and am trying hard
to unlearn: you're looking for validation, but cutting down
anything that might actually *be* validation. If you say "If
they sell they are good" you must not turn around and say,
"Oops, no, they sold so the buyer's tastes must be bad." That
just digs you into a hole. Hey, they sold. That's better
than I've done so far. And if it happened once, it can happen
again.

>If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. I was looking over
>the abandoned Chapter Ones last night and thinking, it would be
>really nice if I could write the varvel story. But it's got to
>be told in multiple viewpoints and somewhere along the third or
>fourth one I broke down ... can't remember now ... I think maybe
>I couldn't get inside the character's head.

Why don't you tell us a bit about it, and see if we can find a
point of entry?

It's too early right now to be fussing over final product.
Worry about whether you can sell it after you find a technique
that lets you write it.

What's a varvel, anyway?

Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@eskimo.com

In article <1198175503snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk>,
Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <JtD1A5.BpH@kithrup.com> djheydt@kithrup.com "Dorothy
>J Heydt" writes:
>
>> In the story, varvel is a plant. [...]
>>
>> I think it would be a fun story if I could only put it together.
>
>I think so too. My feeling is that you have described the main
>info which should be conveyed over the first 10Kww or so, 20Kww
>if you are weaving the feed properly into the plot. Next, we'd
>like to know what deviates from this simple understanding: does
>the presence of Earth observers trigger any latent behaviour in
>the varvel-people, causing them to "complete" the show they try
>to put on each cycle;

OK, the presence of the local people (who are Terrans genetically
but have been living on this world for about 10K years) doesn't
affect them much; it's part of the locals' culture that the
Anhold (the repeaters) are practically gods and are to be
revered, not argued with. The presence of one Terran observer
during the last cycle didn't have any noticeable effect either,
because he was being very scientific and detached and carefully
NOT interfering.

This cycle, however, it's going to be different. Not so much
because of the presence of the visiting scientific and news teams
-- though one of the latter is an unusually beautiful young woman,
the sight of whom tends to cause any male, Anhold or other, to
stand and stare and forget to finish his sentence. But the real
spoke in the wheel is the older scientist, the one who saw the
previous cycle. He fell in love with the Gwenivere-figure, did
nothing about it, has regretted it ever since -- because she died
at the end of the last cycle, they ALL die, they ALWAYS die, in
bloody combat and maybe a couple of suicides. He's determined,
this cycle, to prevent this from happening.


why is the cycle 19 years (coincidence is
>it, that this matches an important Lunar cycle);

It's a prime number. Seeding at that kind of time period ensures
that although critters will come from miles around to eat the
seeds, they won't get them all.

Nineteen (approximately) years is an important lunar cycle for
Earth, but these guys aren't on Earth and I haven't decided if
they have a moon or not. If not, we can assume that the
Transporters, before transporting everybody, terraformed the
planet at least to the point of hauling away excess atmosphere
and setting it up to be an oxidizing, not a reducing one.

is the purpose
>of the Movers/Transporters benign/malign/instructive/cautionary
>or what;

Nobody knows. Nobody knows ANYTHING about them and we're not
going to find out a great deal in this book, either, though we
may find some interesting ruins (such have already been found on
Mars).

why did the arrival of human settlers not affect these
>varvel-people way back -- or did it without anyone realising...

Which human settlers are you talking about? The ones that were
deposited, with the rest of the flora and fauna, some 10K years
ago? The varvel also is basically a modified Terran species, an
unknown-on-earth variant of bamboo. They grew up together, as it
were. The really interesting aspect is that, since this
particular stand of varvel has been sprouting people since the
memory of man on that planet runneth not to the contrary, and
since they're always the same people, *with the same memories,*
they might perhaps have memories about the Transporters ... maybe
.... if anybody can get the opportunity to ask them.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

In article <1rzku4cg68hjj$.a3ta85qwty1b$.dlg@40tude.net>,
Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:13:17 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
><djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD1A5.BpH@kithrup.com>
>in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
>[...]
>
>> Part of what the book is supposed to do is to explore whether
>> character, once established, is destiny: whether the leopard can
>> change his spots, so to speak.
>
>_`You see. You can progress.'_

Ah, bah! What's that from? I recognize it but I can't place it.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:45:34 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD5Jy.I1C@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:

> In article <1rzku4cg68hjj$.a3ta85qwty1b$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:13:17 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
>><djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD1A5.BpH@kithrup.com>
>>in rec.arts.sf.composition:

>>[...]

>>> Part of what the book is supposed to do is to explore whether
>>> character, once established, is destiny: whether the leopard can
>>> change his spots, so to speak.

>>_`You see. You can progress.'_

> Ah, bah! What's that from? I recognize it but I can't place it.

You were the one person I thought *might* recognize it.
It's spoken by Lady Silver Wheels, the charming hostess of
Glass Castle who none the less sets a very spare table.

Brian

In article <1aw2f33bfvrxn$.1nqq78ev0z4gj.dlg@40tude.net>,
"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:45:34 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
> <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD5Jy.I1C@kithrup.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
> > In article <1rzku4cg68hjj$.a3ta85qwty1b$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> > Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
> >>On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:13:17 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
> >><djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD1A5.BpH@kithrup.com>
> >>in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
> >>[...]
>
> >>> Part of what the book is supposed to do is to explore whether
> >>> character, once established, is destiny: whether the leopard can
> >>> change his spots, so to speak.
>
> >>_`You see. You can progress.'_
>
> > Ah, bah! What's that from? I recognize it but I can't place it.
>
> You were the one person I thought *might* recognize it.
> It's spoken by Lady Silver Wheels, the charming hostess of
> Glass Castle who none the less sets a very spare table.

As you will see when it reaches you, my reaction was very much the same
as yours.

Which demonstrates that even a book that wasn't very successful can have
a long term effect on some readers.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now

In article <1aw2f33bfvrxn$.1nqq78ev0z4gj.dlg@40tude.net>,
"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:45:34 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
> <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD5Jy.I1C@kithrup.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
> > In article <1rzku4cg68hjj$.a3ta85qwty1b$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> > Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
> >>On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:13:17 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
> >><djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD1A5.BpH@kithrup.com>
> >>in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
> >>[...]
>
> >>> Part of what the book is supposed to do is to explore whether
> >>> character, once established, is destiny: whether the leopard can
> >>> change his spots, so to speak.
>
> >>_`You see. You can progress.'_
>
> > Ah, bah! What's that from? I recognize it but I can't place it.
>
> You were the one person I thought *might* recognize it.

Whereas I was the one who did, having been reminded of the same book you
were.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now

In article <JtD5Cp.HMp@kithrup.com>,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> is the purpose
> >of the Movers/Transporters benign/malign/instructive/cautionary
> >or what;
>
> Nobody knows. Nobody knows ANYTHING about them and we're not
> going to find out a great deal in this book, either, though we
> may find some interesting ruins (such have already been found on
> Mars).

But the Varvel/Anhold phenomenon might hold clues.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now

In article <87tzmdrq7a.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net>,
Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote:
>>>>>> "DJH" == Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> writes:
>
> DJH> In article <1aw2f33bfvrxn$.1nqq78ev0z4gj.dlg@40tude.net>,
> DJH> Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:45:34 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
> >> <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD5Jy.I1C@kithrup.com> in
> >> rec.arts.sf.composition:
> >>
> >>> In article <1rzku4cg68hjj$.a3ta85qwty1b$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> >>> Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:13:17 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
> >>>> <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtD1A5.BpH@kithrup.com>
> >>>> in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> >>
> >>>> [...]
> >>
> >>>>> Part of what the book is supposed to do is to explore
> >>>>> whether character, once established, is destiny: whether the
> >>>>> leopard can change his spots, so to speak.
> >>
> >>>> _`You see. You can progress.'_
> >>
> >>> Ah, bah! What's that from? I recognize it but I can't place
> >>> it.
> >> You were the one person I thought *might* recognize it. It's
> >> spoken by Lady Silver Wheels, the charming hostess of Glass
> >> Castle who none the less sets a very spare table.
>
> DJH> Bah! You're right!
>
>(fx: furiously waving )

_The Dragon Rises,_ By Adrienne Martine-Barnes. It seems there
are people who are Eternal Archetypes, who from time to time are
born among men and act out their traditional dramas and end in
their usual tragedies and return to the Castle of Glass until
next time. The book follows the last bow of one who has been
both Arthur Pendragon and Vlad Tepes, among others, and how he
learned to break the pattern, retire from combat to an academic
life, and live happily ever after. A *little* like the Anhold,
though not much.

I used to know Adrienne very well, and she was writing the
sequel, _The Lion Wakes,_ while I was writing _The Interior
Life._ Alas, _Lion_ never sold (I still have a copy in MS.), so
Adrienne never wrote the third book, _The Serpent Dances._

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

In article <6PwhiwEIcvaHFwAG@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
Jacey Bedford <lookinsig@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>In message <JtD1A5.BpH@kithrup.com>, Dorothy J Heydt
><djheydt@kithrup.com> writes
>
><snip varvel outline>
>>
>>I think it would be a fun story if I could only put it together.
>Oh YEAH!!!
>
>Sounds great.
>
>What happens to the varvelfolks after the betrayal? Do they kill each
>other? Die? Live on sadder but wiser and watch the next generation go
>through it again nineteen years later?

They all kill each other. The remaining few may commit suicide.
This has happened over and over since the memory of man runneth
not to the contrary. This time, should I ever write the thing,
ONE person is going to survive.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

In article <13mlocvehv00a6e@corp.supernews.com>,
Bill Swears <wswears@gci.net> wrote:
>Right now, a google search nets Varvel as the name of an Italian gearbox
>company, a cartoonist, and a musician in St. Louis. I think if I find a
>word or a name that sounds like a word or a name, it usually is one.

Also a former bridge partner of mine, with whom I've lost touch.
I should see if I can track him down again.

--
David Goldfarb |"Ah, Amerikanski humor. Is most funny.
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu |
goldfarb@csua.berkeley.edu |
| We bomb now." -- J. Michael Straczynski

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 00:48:35 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:JtDJKz.C8C@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.composition:

[...]

> I used to know Adrienne very well, and she was writing the
> sequel, _The Lion Wakes,_ while I was writing _The Interior
> Life._ Alas, _Lion_ never sold (I still have a copy in MS.), so
> Adrienne never wrote the third book, _The Serpent Dances._

Is _The Lion Wakes_ as enjoyable as _The Dragon Rises_?

Brian

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:56:07 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <4lajm3thueo12gddhacaj1ho0jrkc0ml8f@4ax.com>,
>Marilee J. Layman <marilee@mjlayman.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:55:50 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4960cf05-cfc6-49c4-8267-2e95939ae478@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>>>Nicky <nicky.matthews@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>On Dec 19, 7:57 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>>>> In article <87tzmevj6u....@mithril.chromatico.net>,
>>>>> Charlton Wilbur <cwil...@chromatico.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Considering
>>>>> that the last several things I've written haven't been good
>>>>> enough to make it in that environment, even after they'd reached
>>>>> the Schroedinger's-cat stage where they were simultaneously the
>>>>> best I could do and so awful I couldn't stand to touch 'em any
>>>>> more.... by now every sentence, every phrase, comes up against
>>>>> "wait a minute, that isn't good enough, that wasn't good enough
>>>>> LAST time," and it gets tossed back into the stewpot and I try to
>>>>> fish around for something better and don't find it.
>>>>
>>>>This does sound a very strong case for murdering your internal critic.
>>>
>>>If I murder him, and if I then produce lots of verbiage, and then
>>>that verbiage doesn't sell because it's lousy, I am no better off
>>>than I was. Worse, in fact, because now I'm perceived as
>>>somebody who writes lousy verbiage, like wossname with the
>>>[redacted]
>>
>>This is why you write and send it to some of us, not out to the
>>public.
>
>Send how? See below.

Just like you sent the post.

>> After we read it, and you decide how to make changes, *then*
>>it goes to the publisher.
>>
>>You know, I still have a folder here on Agent for _Pastures New_, and
>>I never got to read it. It got lost somewhere on the way.
>
>Ohhhh yes. I was wondering about mentioning that. I printed
>out, I think, five copies, and didn't get anywhere much because
>(a) people didn't forward the copies when they were supposed to
>[sometimes because they moved and lost 'em], and (b) even those
>who had read them didn't SAY anything because Oh horrors, they
>wouldn't want to commit SPOILERS for those who hadn't read it
>yet. With the result that I got no comments at all except from
>Helen, who sent me some interesting remarks in private email.
>
>It was very kind of Irina to put together a mailing list for
>prospective readers of _PN_ to comment, but since no one was
>willing to say anything on the list until everyone had read the
>book, which never happened, I don't want to go that way again.

Yeah, I thought that might be why it died out. I was very unhappy to
be near the end of one of the copy's list.

But this time, instead of a mailing list, you can just email it to the
people you want to read it and get answers back from them in email.

>I am also not going to try sending paper printouts out into the
>uncharted wilderness, either.
>
>Dorothy J. Heydt
>Albany, California
>djheydt@kithrup.com
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com

In the meanwhile, I have taken a look at what there is of Chapter
One, and I think I've seen what's wrong with it. It wants to
switch point of view here and there, and the rhythm is wrong.
I've got a segment with Fr. Michael, and then a segment with the
youngster who wants to get out from under his father's thumb, and
then a segment with Fr. Michael again with the abovementioned
father. And the transition between those two segments is really
bad.

And then the next thing is just a mention of one of the Terran
research team, an engineer IIRC, and then Fr. Michael again talking
to the newly arrived Terrans. I presume that I wanted to include
something from the engineer's point of view, but I don't really
know what that is. I have the vague recollection that he's a
jerk, but of what form his jerkishness takes, I know nothing.
When first seen, he's standing with his head thrust up the
chimney of a fireplace (fortunately, the fire has not yet been
lit), examining its structure and comparing it to quite
independently invented Terran chimneys.

And the scene with the Terrans stinks of infodump, and then they
all go in to dinner and it's not even infodump, it's just talking
heads. Feh.

So I know some of the things that's wrong with it, but not how to
fix it.

Anyone got suggestions?

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

In article <JtE1wF.95n@kithrup.com>,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> In the meanwhile, I have taken a look at what there is of Chapter
> One, and I think I've seen what's wrong with it. It wants to
> switch point of view here and there, and the rhythm is wrong.
> I've got a segment with Fr. Michael, and then a segment with the
> youngster who wants to get out from under his father's thumb, and
> then a segment with Fr. Michael again with the abovementioned
> father. And the transition between those two segments is really
> bad.
>
> And then the next thing is just a mention of one of the Terran
> research team, an engineer IIRC, and then Fr. Michael again talking
> to the newly arrived Terrans. I presume that I wanted to include
> something from the engineer's point of view, but I don't really
> know what that is. I have the vague recollection that he's a
> jerk, but of what form his jerkishness takes, I know nothing.
> When first seen, he's standing with his head thrust up the
> chimney of a fireplace (fortunately, the fire has not yet been
> lit), examining its structure and comparing it to quite
> independently invented Terran chimneys.
>
> And the scene with the Terrans stinks of infodump, and then they
> all go in to dinner and it's not even infodump, it's just talking
> heads. Feh.
>
> So I know some of the things that's wrong with it, but not how to
> fix it.
>
> Anyone got suggestions?

Your repeating people are so odd that the terrans might well take
reports of them as a myth or metaphor or something. Could you introduce
the idea in some conversation with Terrans and locals talking at cross
purposes as a result?

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now

In message <JtDJnA.CCE@kithrup.com>, Dorothy J Heydt
<djheydt@kithrup.com> writes
>In article <6PwhiwEIcvaHFwAG@parkhead.demon.co.uk>,
>Jacey Bedford <lookinsig@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>In message <JtD1A5.BpH@kithrup.com>, Dorothy J Heydt
>><djheydt@kithrup.com> writes
>>
>><snip varvel outline>
>>>
>>>I think it would be a fun story if I could only put it together.
>>Oh YEAH!!!
>>
>>Sounds great.
>>
>>What happens to the varvelfolks after the betrayal? Do they kill each
>>other? Die? Live on sadder but wiser and watch the next generation go
>>through it again nineteen years later?
>
>They all kill each other. The remaining few may commit suicide.
>This has happened over and over since the memory of man runneth
>not to the contrary. This time, should I ever write the thing,
>ONE person is going to survive.
Yay!

Only one?

Jacey
(likes happy endings, though not without price)

--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
posting via usenet and not googlegroups, ourdebate
or any other forum that reprints usenet posts as
though they were the forum's own

In article <JtEst3.K47@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>the Anhold (those are the varvel people)

The current governor of our state is a problem for this name.
Every time I see "Anhold" it comes out "Ahnold" in my mind,
and I have to stop and look at the word again to get it right.

--
David Goldfarb |"I suppose an idiot plot is better than
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu | no plot at all."
goldfarb@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Katie Schwarz

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:06:30 +0000 (UTC), David Goldfarb
<goldfarb@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in
<news:fkhdd6$1dn4$1@agate.berkeley.edu> in
rec.arts.sf.composition:

> In article <JtEst3.K47@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:

>>the Anhold (those are the varvel people)

> The current governor of our state is a problem for this name.
> Every time I see "Anhold" it comes out "Ahnold" in my mind,
> and I have to stop and look at the word again to get it right.

The fact that it would be appearing side by side with
'Baihold' should help a bit.

Brian