SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...

"Ar Q" <ArthurQ283@hottmail.com> wrote in the "Don't forget
Journeyman's final show tonight" thread on rec.arts.tv:

> 10PM Eastern/ 9 Central.
>
> I certainly will miss this season's most enjoyable drama...

Me too.

The episode aired at 7 eastern on the Global Maritime channel,
which is available elsewhere in Canada on digital timeshifting
tiers. So I've seen it and it's a great, great ending to what
amounts to a 13-episode miniseries if indeed no other network
picks it up. It leaves all the biggest picture questions open and
sets it up perfectly for a continuation, yet it provides enough
answers and closure to make for a great wrap up. SPOILERS
here on the key elements...

Langley has basically been an observer of the phenomenon of
time travelers, but is unaware of what (or who) is causing it. He
says he'll always disavow any knowledge of time travelers for
their own protection. He also believes the phenomenon is winding
down and that Dan is now the last traveler. Dan tells him he's
wrong but declines to name Livia.

The A-plot is basically about Dan's predecessor, who died the
same day that Dan started traveling. The last Journeyman lost
his wife of 15+ years, she being killed by someone he'd pissed
off in one of his journeys. So it parallels Dan's experience in the
two-parter a few weeks ago, where Katie was almost killed. The
previous Journeyman went back and prevented himself from ever
meeting his wife, just to save her. He succeeded, but in the new
reality was tortured by her never even remembering him or their
life together.

There's a nice scene in stage 3 of Dan's mission, where Dan and
Livia set it up for Dan's predecessor to make significant headway
with his wife in a replay of sorts of their first encounter. But the
previous Journeyman still dies, for no apparent reason and a
news story later mentions his wife is breaking up with the new
guy (a politician) that she'd married. Maybe there's a Journeyman
Retirement Program where he beamed out to, and they'll both be
resuming their marriage there. :-)

Back to Dan and Katie, and Katie suggesting the drugs that this
other traveler had taken (he was in an asylum) could be used by
Dan to suppress his travels. Dan declines, telling Katie he believes
what he's doing is important. He says he'd understand if she wants
out, but Katie doesn't and they agree to stay together.

Earlier, Katie asked to see Dan disappear (as Zach had), but Katie's
sister was there so she couldn't. Later though, in perhaps the very
last scene of the series, Dan wakes up and realizes he's about to
travel. Sitting in a chair a sleeping Katie is facing, he calls to wake
her up. He beams out and then the very last shot is of Katie having
seen it, with a zoom into the reflection of that in her eye.

Very, very nice send-off to the series if that's all there is, but really
there should be more and Fox or Sci-Fi (or maybe a combination
of the two) should pick this up. Reruns of these 13 eps, and the
DVD when it's available, would help build a bigger following and
in that sense the strike-shortened season could be a blessing for
the show. Maybe it does another 13 after the strike gets settled,
to better numbers and then maybe on to several more seasons.

But again if this was it, it was a great 13-ep series that leaves
viewers wanting more. Kudos to all involved.

"KalElFan" <kalelfanNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5su2rnF1998lkU1@mid.individual.net...
> SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
>
> "Ar Q" <ArthurQ283@hottmail.com> wrote in the "Don't forget
> Journeyman's final show tonight" thread on rec.arts.tv:
>
>> 10PM Eastern/ 9 Central.
>>
>> I certainly will miss this season's most enjoyable drama...
>
> Me too.
>
> The episode aired at 7 eastern on the Global Maritime channel,
> which is available elsewhere in Canada on digital timeshifting
> tiers. So I've seen it and it's a great, great ending to what
> amounts to a 13-episode miniseries if indeed no other network
> picks it up. It leaves all the biggest picture questions open and
> sets it up perfectly for a continuation, yet it provides enough
> answers and closure to make for a great wrap up. SPOILERS
> here on the key elements...
>
> Langley has basically been an observer of the phenomenon of
> time travelers, but is unaware of what (or who) is causing it. He
> says he'll always disavow any knowledge of time travelers for
> their own protection. He also believes the phenomenon is winding
> down and that Dan is now the last traveler. Dan tells him he's
> wrong but declines to name Livia.
>
> The A-plot is basically about Dan's predecessor, who died the
> same day that Dan started traveling. The last Journeyman lost
> his wife of 15+ years, she being killed by someone he'd pissed
> off in one of his journeys. So it parallels Dan's experience in the
> two-parter a few weeks ago, where Katie was almost killed. The
> previous Journeyman went back and prevented himself from ever
> meeting his wife, just to save her. He succeeded, but in the new
> reality was tortured by her never even remembering him or their
> life together.
>
> There's a nice scene in stage 3 of Dan's mission, where Dan and
> Livia set it up for Dan's predecessor to make significant headway
> with his wife in a replay of sorts of their first encounter. But the
> previous Journeyman still dies, for no apparent reason and a
> news story later mentions his wife is breaking up with the new
> guy (a politician) that she'd married. Maybe there's a Journeyman
> Retirement Program where he beamed out to, and they'll both be
> resuming their marriage there. :-)
>
> Back to Dan and Katie, and Katie suggesting the drugs that this
> other traveler had taken (he was in an asylum) could be used by
> Dan to suppress his travels. Dan declines, telling Katie he believes
> what he's doing is important. He says he'd understand if she wants
> out, but Katie doesn't and they agree to stay together.
>
> Earlier, Katie asked to see Dan disappear (as Zach had), but Katie's
> sister was there so she couldn't. Later though, in perhaps the very
> last scene of the series, Dan wakes up and realizes he's about to
> travel. Sitting in a chair a sleeping Katie is facing, he calls to wake
> her up. He beams out and then the very last shot is of Katie having
> seen it, with a zoom into the reflection of that in her eye.
>
> Very, very nice send-off to the series if that's all there is, but really
> there should be more and Fox or Sci-Fi (or maybe a combination
> of the two) should pick this up. Reruns of these 13 eps, and the
> DVD when it's available, would help build a bigger following and
> in that sense the strike-shortened season could be a blessing for
> the show. Maybe it does another 13 after the strike gets settled,
> to better numbers and then maybe on to several more seasons.
>
> But again if this was it, it was a great 13-ep series that leaves
> viewers wanting more. Kudos to all involved.
>
Agreed. It took me awhile to warm to this one...hung in there because I'm a
fan of McKidd after his work on "Rome"...but I do hope the show gets a
second life. Maybe if Dan Vasser can travel back to the birth of the show
and...

In article <IpOdncwYQuzlcPTanZ2dnUVZ_tSknZ2d@comcast.com>,
janeanddano@yahoo.com says...
>
>
>"KalElFan" <kalelfanNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:5su2rnF1998lkU1@mid.individual.net...
>> SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
>>
>> "Ar Q" <ArthurQ283@hottmail.com> wrote in the "Don't forget
>> Journeyman's final show tonight" thread on rec.arts.tv:
>>
>>> 10PM Eastern/ 9 Central.
>>>
>>> I certainly will miss this season's most enjoyable drama...
>>
>> Me too.
>>
>> The episode aired at 7 eastern on the Global Maritime channel,
>> which is available elsewhere in Canada on digital timeshifting
>> tiers. So I've seen it and it's a great, great ending to what
>> amounts to a 13-episode miniseries if indeed no other network
>> picks it up. It leaves all the biggest picture questions open and
>> sets it up perfectly for a continuation, yet it provides enough
>> answers and closure to make for a great wrap up. SPOILERS
>> here on the key elements...
>>
>> Langley has basically been an observer of the phenomenon of
>> time travelers, but is unaware of what (or who) is causing it. He
>> says he'll always disavow any knowledge of time travelers for
>> their own protection. He also believes the phenomenon is winding
>> down and that Dan is now the last traveler. Dan tells him he's
>> wrong but declines to name Livia.
>>
>> The A-plot is basically about Dan's predecessor, who died the
>> same day that Dan started traveling. The last Journeyman lost
>> his wife of 15+ years, she being killed by someone he'd pissed
>> off in one of his journeys. So it parallels Dan's experience in the
>> two-parter a few weeks ago, where Katie was almost killed. The
>> previous Journeyman went back and prevented himself from ever
>> meeting his wife, just to save her. He succeeded, but in the new
>> reality was tortured by her never even remembering him or their
>> life together.
>>
>> There's a nice scene in stage 3 of Dan's mission, where Dan and
>> Livia set it up for Dan's predecessor to make significant headway
>> with his wife in a replay of sorts of their first encounter. But the
>> previous Journeyman still dies, for no apparent reason and a
>> news story later mentions his wife is breaking up with the new
>> guy (a politician) that she'd married. Maybe there's a Journeyman
>> Retirement Program where he beamed out to, and they'll both be
>> resuming their marriage there. :-)
>>
>> Back to Dan and Katie, and Katie suggesting the drugs that this
>> other traveler had taken (he was in an asylum) could be used by
>> Dan to suppress his travels. Dan declines, telling Katie he believes
>> what he's doing is important. He says he'd understand if she wants
>> out, but Katie doesn't and they agree to stay together.
>>
>> Earlier, Katie asked to see Dan disappear (as Zach had), but Katie's
>> sister was there so she couldn't. Later though, in perhaps the very
>> last scene of the series, Dan wakes up and realizes he's about to
>> travel. Sitting in a chair a sleeping Katie is facing, he calls to wake
>> her up. He beams out and then the very last shot is of Katie having
>> seen it, with a zoom into the reflection of that in her eye.
>>
>> Very, very nice send-off to the series if that's all there is, but really
>> there should be more and Fox or Sci-Fi (or maybe a combination
>> of the two) should pick this up. Reruns of these 13 eps, and the
>> DVD when it's available, would help build a bigger following and
>> in that sense the strike-shortened season could be a blessing for
>> the show. Maybe it does another 13 after the strike gets settled,
>> to better numbers and then maybe on to several more seasons.
>>
>> But again if this was it, it was a great 13-ep series that leaves
>> viewers wanting more. Kudos to all involved.
>>
>Agreed. It took me awhile to warm to this one...hung in there because I'm a
>fan of McKidd after his work on "Rome"...but I do hope the show gets a
>second life. Maybe if Dan Vasser can travel back to the birth of the show
>and...
>
I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.

There might be journeyman novels to read.

On Dec 19, 11:30 pm, pgalimat...@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias)
wrote:
> In article <IpOdncwYQuzlcPTanZ2dnUVZ_tSkn...@comcast.com>,
> janeandd...@yahoo.com says...
>
>
>
> >"KalElFan" <kalelfanNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:5su2rnF1998lkU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
>
> >> "Ar Q" <ArthurQ...@hottmail.com> wrote in the "Don't forget
> >>Journeyman'sfinal show tonight" thread on rec.arts.tv:
>
> >>> 10PM Eastern/ 9 Central.
>
> >>> I certainly will miss this season's most enjoyable drama...
>
> >> Me too.
>
> >> The episode aired at 7 eastern on the Global Maritime channel,
> >> which is available elsewhere in Canada on digital timeshifting
> >> tiers. So I've seen it and it's a great, great ending to what
> >> amounts to a 13-episode miniseries if indeed no other network
> >> picks it up. It leaves all the biggest picture questions open and
> >> sets it up perfectly for a continuation, yet it provides enough
> >> answers and closure to make for a great wrap up. SPOILERS
> >> here on the key elements...
>
> >> Langley has basically been an observer of the phenomenon of
> >> time travelers, but is unaware of what (or who) is causing it. He
> >> says he'll always disavow any knowledge of time travelers for
> >> their own protection. He also believes the phenomenon is winding
> >> down and that Dan is now the last traveler. Dan tells him he's
> >> wrong but declines to name Livia.
>
> >> The A-plot is basically about Dan's predecessor, who died the
> >> same day that Dan started traveling. The lastJourneymanlost
> >> his wife of 15+ years, she being killed by someone he'd pissed
> >> off in one of his journeys. So it parallels Dan's experience in the
> >> two-parter a few weeks ago, where Katie was almost killed. The
> >> previousJourneymanwent back and prevented himself from ever
> >> meeting his wife, just to save her. He succeeded, but in the new
> >> reality was tortured by her never even remembering him or their
> >> life together.
>
> >> There's a nice scene in stage 3 of Dan's mission, where Dan and
> >> Livia set it up for Dan's predecessor to make significant headway
> >> with his wife in a replay of sorts of their first encounter. But the
> >> previousJourneymanstill dies, for no apparent reason and a
> >> news story later mentions his wife is breaking up with the new
> >> guy (a politician) that she'd married. Maybe there's aJourneyman
> >> Retirement Program where he beamed out to, and they'll both be
> >> resuming their marriage there. :-)
>
> >> Back to Dan and Katie, and Katie suggesting the drugs that this
> >> other traveler had taken (he was in an asylum) could be used by
> >> Dan to suppress his travels. Dan declines, telling Katie he believes
> >> what he's doing is important. He says he'd understand if she wants
> >> out, but Katie doesn't and they agree to stay together.
>
> >> Earlier, Katie asked to see Dan disappear (as Zach had), but Katie's
> >> sister was there so she couldn't. Later though, in perhaps the very
> >> last scene of the series, Dan wakes up and realizes he's about to
> >> travel. Sitting in a chair a sleeping Katie is facing, he calls to wake
> >> her up. He beams out and then the very last shot is of Katie having
> >> seen it, with a zoom into the reflection of that in her eye.
>
> >> Very, very nice send-off to the series if that's all there is, but really
> >> there should be more and Fox or Sci-Fi (or maybe a combination
> >> of the two) should pick this up. Reruns of these 13 eps, and the
> >> DVD when it's available, would help build a bigger following and
> >> in that sense the strike-shortened season could be a blessing for
> >> the show. Maybe it does another 13 after the strike gets settled,
> >> to better numbers and then maybe on to several more seasons.
>
> >> But again if this was it, it was a great 13-ep series that leaves
> >> viewers wanting more. Kudos to all involved.
>
> >Agreed. It took me awhile to warm to this one...hung in there because I'm a
> >fan of McKidd after his work on "Rome"...but I do hope the show gets a
> >second life. Maybe if Dan Vasser can travel back to the birth of the show
> >and...
>
> I just watched the lastJourneyman. Damn the writers and producers.
> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.

On Dec 19, 11:30 pm, pgalimat...@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias)
wrote:
> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.

Me too.
There were rough spots squeezing a lot of stuff in, but the writers
really thought through a lot of it. (And I like Big Band.)
If it does not get picked up somewhere, which would be a shame, I hope
the authors give an interview and explain their world view.

--
- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu>
Free Cory Maye

"David Chesler" <chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:e876e24b-dde8-4594-abc7-afb9c772b82f@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 19, 11:30 pm, pgalimat...@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias)
> wrote:
>> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
>> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
>> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.
>
> Me too.
> There were rough spots squeezing a lot of stuff in, but the writers
> really thought through a lot of it. (And I like Big Band.)
> If it does not get picked up somewhere, which would be a shame, I hope
> the authors give an interview and explain their world view.
>


Me three. It's a shame so many genre shows have started slowly the last
couple of years. Some ended up being good enough to warrant a second season,
but they didn't get it because their numbers never recovered. I've really
enjoyed seeing Lisa Sheridan again after Invasion traveled that path.

--Robin

"Robin Miller" <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote in message
news:5Amaj.572$Tt5.20@newsfe07.lga...
>
> "David Chesler" <chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> news:e876e24b-dde8-4594-abc7-afb9c772b82f@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Dec 19, 11:30 pm, pgalimat...@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias)
>> wrote:
>>> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
>>> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
>>> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.
>>
>> Me too.
>> There were rough spots squeezing a lot of stuff in, but the writers
>> really thought through a lot of it. (And I like Big Band.)
>> If it does not get picked up somewhere, which would be a shame, I hope
>> the authors give an interview and explain their world view.
>>
>
>
> Me three. It's a shame so many genre shows have started slowly the last
> couple of years. Some ended up being good enough to warrant a second
> season, but they didn't get it because their numbers never recovered. I've
> really enjoyed seeing Lisa Sheridan again after Invasion traveled that
> path.
>
> --Robin
>
>


Sorry to follow myself up, but I've just read some of the other threads. We
lose The 4400, The Dead Zone, and Journeyman all on the same day? Wow.

--Robin

pgalimatias@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias) wrote:

> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
> NBC for denying me more.

As an episode of the show, I thought it was above-average, but not
extraordinary, but I have to agree with KalElFan that it did a
terrific job of wrapping up the first chapter in Dan's life as a
time-traveler, while leaving a great deal still to be said about
what's behind it all.

At the end, I felt I had reached the end of the first book of a
series: one that had its own resolution, but left more story to
be told.

> I'm not watching what fills its space.

Don't be an idiot. Not watching what replaces it isn't going to
bring JOURNEYMAN back.

I'll be watching what replaces it, because I *like* what's
replacing it: the next season of MEDIUM.

-- jayembee

(snip)
> >
> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.
>
Ditto. No NBC for me till Medium starts, it has nothing else that interests
me.

"David Chesler" <chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:e876e24b-dde8-4594-abc7-afb9c772b82f@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 19, 11:30 pm, pgalimat...@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias)
> wrote:
>> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
>> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
>> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.
>
> Me too.
> There were rough spots squeezing a lot of stuff in, but the writers
> really thought through a lot of it.

I didn't dislike it but, like the psychic crap in the previous episode, this
one had...problems.

If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could Dan
travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die in that
one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?

Dan's boss won't remember that Dan said he was doing a story about CT's
death becasue that timeline never happened but...what was Dan working on in
the timeline that did happen? Will there be a pile of mysterious work on
his desk that he did but has no memory of? Forget about losing a day or two
becasue of the travelling itself, Dan is losing months of work every time he
changes the timeline!

Still, minor quibbles and probably easily explained and/or fanwanked. I
sure appreciated a show that gave me the opportunity to pick such nits!

In article <Jdmaj.28820$JW4.20386@trnddc05>,
pgalimatias@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias) wrote:

> In article <IpOdncwYQuzlcPTanZ2dnUVZ_tSknZ2d@comcast.com>,
> janeanddano@yahoo.com says...
> >
> >
> >"KalElFan" <kalelfanNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:5su2rnF1998lkU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
> >>
> >> "Ar Q" <ArthurQ283@hottmail.com> wrote in the "Don't forget
> >> Journeyman's final show tonight" thread on rec.arts.tv:
> >>
> >>> 10PM Eastern/ 9 Central.
> >>>
> >>> I certainly will miss this season's most enjoyable drama...
> >>
> >> Me too.
> >>
> >> The episode aired at 7 eastern on the Global Maritime channel,
> >> which is available elsewhere in Canada on digital timeshifting
> >> tiers. So I've seen it and it's a great, great ending to what
> >> amounts to a 13-episode miniseries if indeed no other network
> >> picks it up. It leaves all the biggest picture questions open and
> >> sets it up perfectly for a continuation, yet it provides enough
> >> answers and closure to make for a great wrap up. SPOILERS
> >> here on the key elements...
> >>
> >> Langley has basically been an observer of the phenomenon of
> >> time travelers, but is unaware of what (or who) is causing it. He
> >> says he'll always disavow any knowledge of time travelers for
> >> their own protection. He also believes the phenomenon is winding
> >> down and that Dan is now the last traveler. Dan tells him he's
> >> wrong but declines to name Livia.
> >>
> >> The A-plot is basically about Dan's predecessor, who died the
> >> same day that Dan started traveling. The last Journeyman lost
> >> his wife of 15+ years, she being killed by someone he'd pissed
> >> off in one of his journeys. So it parallels Dan's experience in the
> >> two-parter a few weeks ago, where Katie was almost killed. The
> >> previous Journeyman went back and prevented himself from ever
> >> meeting his wife, just to save her. He succeeded, but in the new
> >> reality was tortured by her never even remembering him or their
> >> life together.
> >>
> >> There's a nice scene in stage 3 of Dan's mission, where Dan and
> >> Livia set it up for Dan's predecessor to make significant headway
> >> with his wife in a replay of sorts of their first encounter. But the
> >> previous Journeyman still dies, for no apparent reason and a
> >> news story later mentions his wife is breaking up with the new
> >> guy (a politician) that she'd married. Maybe there's a Journeyman
> >> Retirement Program where he beamed out to, and they'll both be
> >> resuming their marriage there. :-)
> >>
> >> Back to Dan and Katie, and Katie suggesting the drugs that this
> >> other traveler had taken (he was in an asylum) could be used by
> >> Dan to suppress his travels. Dan declines, telling Katie he believes
> >> what he's doing is important. He says he'd understand if she wants
> >> out, but Katie doesn't and they agree to stay together.
> >>
> >> Earlier, Katie asked to see Dan disappear (as Zach had), but Katie's
> >> sister was there so she couldn't. Later though, in perhaps the very
> >> last scene of the series, Dan wakes up and realizes he's about to
> >> travel. Sitting in a chair a sleeping Katie is facing, he calls to wake
> >> her up. He beams out and then the very last shot is of Katie having
> >> seen it, with a zoom into the reflection of that in her eye.
> >>
> >> Very, very nice send-off to the series if that's all there is, but really
> >> there should be more and Fox or Sci-Fi (or maybe a combination
> >> of the two) should pick this up. Reruns of these 13 eps, and the
> >> DVD when it's available, would help build a bigger following and
> >> in that sense the strike-shortened season could be a blessing for
> >> the show. Maybe it does another 13 after the strike gets settled,
> >> to better numbers and then maybe on to several more seasons.
> >>
> >> But again if this was it, it was a great 13-ep series that leaves
> >> viewers wanting more. Kudos to all involved.
> >>
> >Agreed. It took me awhile to warm to this one...hung in there because I'm a
> >fan of McKidd after his work on "Rome"...but I do hope the show gets a
> >second life. Maybe if Dan Vasser can travel back to the birth of the show
> >and...
> >
> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.

Well, I dunno; it sounded to me as if they were about to launch into
one of those interminable "plot arcs" that writers use to avoid actually
exploring interesting ideas. Instead of doing some serious tweaking
of the past -- and not just a few decades back, going back a bit further
-- and then working out some interesting consequences both personal
and on the larger cultural canvas, lo, they wheeled in (by way of
"Langley") the dangerous bad guys who want to *control* the time
travelers in order to change things their way. What that leads to, as
inevitably as night follows day, is ep after ep jacked up to a fever
pitch by kidnappings and disappearances of those "in the know" --
Jack, wife and kid, etc. etc. -- by BG's trying to manipulate Dan. Lots
of angst and running around: no thinking, no real imagining of what
changes committed fairly blindly and without that kind of coercion,
might mean for the world.

For a very different treatment of this idea, not on screen but in print,
check out a series by Kage Baker, which is about time travelers from
all over history who are sent back to rescue persons and significant
artifacts. Their food/drink of choice, by the way, is "theobroma" --
chocolate . . . she has a very convincing and evolved approach to the
whole going-back-to-do-X idea.

C

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:54:25 -0600, Robin Miller wrote:

> "David Chesler" <chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> news:e876e24b-dde8-4594-abc7-afb9c772b82f@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
[snip]

>> Me too.
>> There were rough spots squeezing a lot of stuff in, but the writers
>> really thought through a lot of it. (And I like Big Band.)
>> If it does not get picked up somewhere, which would be a shame, I hope
>> the authors give an interview and explain their world view.

> Me three. It's a shame so many genre shows have started slowly the last
> couple of years.

Journeyman didn't start slow IMHO. I was hooked after 1 episode.

[snip]

--
"Intellect without humanity is not good enough...what the world is
suffering from at the present time is not so much an overabundance of
intellect as an insufficiency of humanity." - Ashley Montagu

"Robin Miller" <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote in news:5Amaj.572$Tt5.20
@newsfe07.lga:

>
> Me three. It's a shame so many genre shows have started slowly the last
> couple of years.

In the past, they'd have had a chance. Cheers took a few years to catch
on. Now, there isn't any time given to work.

Ian Galbraith <me@privacy.net> wrote in news:vad3kjqgu35y
$.u9j53on4po5w.dlg@40tude.net:

> Journeyman didn't start slow IMHO. I was hooked after 1 episode.

First 30 mins were slow for me, but I watched the last half, after walking
away and enjoyed it, and when I was able to watch it since then, it was
good. I actually missed the last 15 tonight cuz I didn't look at the clock
and when they went in to the last comercial break, right as Dan did his
first "leap" I figured that was the end, fitting end if it had been to my
mind.

"Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:

> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
> Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
> in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?

Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
tho, but he died, how didn't matter.

On Dec 20, 12:50 am, jayembee <jayembeenos...@snurcher.com> wrote:
> pgalimat...@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias) wrote:
> > I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
> > The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
> > NBC for denying me more.
>
> As an episode of the show, I thought it was above-average, but not
> extraordinary, but I have to agree with KalElFan that it did a
> terrific job of wrapping up the first chapter in Dan's life as a
> time-traveler, while leaving a great deal still to be said about
> what's behind it all.
>
> At the end, I felt I had reached the end of the first book of a
> series: one that had its own resolution, but left more story to
> be told.
>

--- Journeyman was one of those shows that really didn't hook me but I
could see in it a potential for it to have been a much more
interesting show than it was. Still, it did have some nice touches to
it, largely thanks to Kevin McKidd, someone who just grabs hold of you
with his almost brutal looks and fairly convincing charcterization and
refuses to let go. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets another series
in the near future, one that might better caoitalize on his looks and
characterization [maybe a tough p.i. or spy role (he does have a
certain vague resemblance to Daniel Craig)].

Anyway, I felt this finale to be more like what should've actually
have been the pilot for the series, with some tweaking and editing of
course to make it so. The problem I had with Journeyman all along, as
did apparently the tons of viewers who deliberately avoided the
series, was the whole mystery slant to why he time traveled - it was a
hook without any real bait. The explanation in the finale was all
that was needed to more easily make alienated viewers of this series
lock onto it. The explanation also set up what obviously would've
been the next arc in the series which could've been used as the actual
first arc instead of all that had preceded the finale, which I found
was more of an unnecessary 12-episode prologue. More than the show
itself, I'd really be interested to see what else McKidd ends up in.


> > I'm not watching what fills its space.
>
> Don't be an idiot. Not watching what replaces it isn't going to
> bring JOURNEYMAN back.
>
> I'll be watching what replaces it, because I *like* what's
> replacing it: the next season of MEDIUM.
>
> -- jayembee

KalElFan wrote:

> SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
>
> "Ar Q" <ArthurQ283@hottmail.com> wrote in the "Don't forget
> Journeyman's final show tonight" thread on rec.arts.tv:
>
> > 10PM Eastern/ 9 Central.
> >
> > I certainly will miss this season's most enjoyable drama...
>
> Me too.
>
> The episode aired at 7 eastern on the Global Maritime channel,
> which is available elsewhere in Canada on digital timeshifting
> tiers. So I've seen it and it's a great, great ending to what
> amounts to a 13-episode miniseries if indeed no other network
> picks it up. It leaves all the biggest picture questions open and
> sets it up perfectly for a continuation, yet it provides enough
> answers and closure to make for a great wrap up. SPOILERS
> here on the key elements...
>

> The A-plot is basically about Dan's predecessor, who died the
> same day that Dan started traveling. The last Journeyman lost
> his wife of 15+ years, she being killed by someone he'd pissed
> off in one of his journeys. So it parallels Dan's experience in the
> two-parter a few weeks ago, where Katie was almost killed. The
> previous Journeyman went back and prevented himself from ever
> meeting his wife, just to save her. He succeeded, but in the new
> reality was tortured by her never even remembering him or their
> life together.

I have a better idea for Evans: Go back to assassinate the person who had
murdered his wife!

> There's a nice scene in stage 3 of Dan's mission, where Dan and
> Livia set it up for Dan's predecessor to make significant headway
> with his wife in a replay of sorts of their first encounter. But the
> previous Journeyman still dies, for no apparent reason and a
> news story later mentions his wife is breaking up with the new
> guy (a politician) that she'd married. Maybe there's a Journeyman
> Retirement Program where he beamed out to, and they'll both be
> resuming their marriage there. :-)

I bet that Evans was so exicted at dancing with his retroactive ex-wife that
he had a heart attack! He did look somewhat fat.

> Back to Dan and Katie, and Katie suggesting the drugs that this
> other traveler had taken (he was in an asylum) could be used by
> Dan to suppress his travels. Dan declines, telling Katie he believes
> what he's doing is important. He says he'd understand if she wants
> out, but Katie doesn't and they agree to stay together.

I suggest that Dan obtain those anti-time travel drugs and use them when he
wants a vacation.

> Earlier, Katie asked to see Dan disappear (as Zach had), but Katie's
> sister was there so she couldn't. Later though, in perhaps the very
> last scene of the series, Dan wakes up and realizes he's about to
> travel. Sitting in a chair a sleeping Katie is facing, he calls to wake
> her up. He beams out and then the very last shot is of Katie having
> seen it, with a zoom into the reflection of that in her eye.

I suggest that Dan let Jack see him disappear too!

Evans had been keeping a time travel journal. Why hasn't Dan been keeping
such a journal?

Victor Velazquez wrote:

> "David Chesler" <chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> news:e876e24b-dde8-4594-abc7-afb9c772b82f@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Dec 19, 11:30 pm, pgalimat...@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias)
> > wrote:
> >> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
> >> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
> >> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.
> >
> > Me too.
> > There were rough spots squeezing a lot of stuff in, but the writers
> > really thought through a lot of it.
>
> I didn't dislike it but, like the psychic crap in the previous episode, this
> one had...problems.
>
> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could Dan
> travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die in that
> one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>
> Dan's boss won't remember that Dan said he was doing a story about CT's
> death becasue that timeline never happened but...what was Dan working on in
> the timeline that did happen? Will there be a pile of mysterious work on
> his desk that he did but has no memory of? Forget about losing a day or two
> becasue of the travelling itself, Dan is losing months of work every time he
> changes the timeline!

Couldn't Dan just look up his stuff on his computer?

"M. Halbrook" wrote:

> "Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
> > If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
> > Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
> > in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>
> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.

Why would one time traveler need to die to allow another one to start?

On Dec 20, 5:03 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
>



> I have a better idea for Evans: Go back to assassinate the person who had
> murdered his wife!

He said he tried to fix things but it kept getting worse. This
follows what we learned from Livia in the 2-parter.

> Maybe there's a Journeyman
> > Retirement Program where he beamed out to, and they'll both be
> > resuming their marriage there. :-)
>
> I bet that Evans was so exicted at dancing with his retroactive ex-wife that
> he had a heart attack! He did look somewhat fat.

Both the psychic's detection of Zach and Lauren's deja vu suggest
that there is some "right" timeline.

> Evans had been keeping a time travel journal. Why hasn't Dan been keeping
> such a journal?

1. Evans had been doing it 15 years. We don't know when he started
the journal. (And when and why did he collect those those artifiacts,
the ring and the video? BTW, what format was that video?)

2. Maybe Dan figures he can just buy the DVD

--
- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu>
Free Cory Maye

"M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0BEECD24564mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...
> "Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
>> Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
>> in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>
> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.

Then what was Dan going back in time (twice!) to fix?

kalelfan@yahoo.com wrote:

s

p

o

i

l

e

r


s

p

a

c

e

>SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...

>Langley has basically been an observer of the phenomenon of
>time travelers, but is unaware of what (or who) is causing it. He
>says he'll always disavow any knowledge of time travelers for
>their own protection. He also believes the phenomenon is winding
>down and that Dan is now the last traveler. Dan tells him he's
>wrong but declines to name Livia.

I'm pleased they finally explained Langley. He was definitely in fear of
his life. The only disappointing bit in the script was that Jack didn't
realize the obvious. He could have gotten the guy killed.

It was very interesting that Langley just didn't want to know too much,
realizing exactly how much danger he was in from "the low men" and from
the Vengeful Phenomenon too. I wonder if a colleague working on the
project was killed.

>The A-plot is basically about Dan's predecessor, who died the
>same day that Dan started traveling. The last Journeyman lost
>his wife of 15+ years, she being killed by someone he'd pissed
>off in one of his journeys. So it parallels Dan's experience in the
>two-parter a few weeks ago, where Katie was almost killed. The
>previous Journeyman went back and prevented himself from ever
>meeting his wife, just to save her. He succeeded, but in the new
>reality was tortured by her never even remembering him or their
>life together.

>There's a nice scene in stage 3 of Dan's mission, where Dan and
>Livia set it up for Dan's predecessor to make significant headway
>with his wife in a replay of sorts of their first encounter. But the
>previous Journeyman still dies, for no apparent reason and a
>news story later mentions his wife is breaking up with the new
>guy (a politician) that she'd married. Maybe there's a Journeyman
>Retirement Program where he beamed out to, and they'll both be
>resuming their marriage there. :-)

It was very sweet ending for him, but disgusting too. Why did his wife
die? It's certainly predictable that a Journeyman would be highly
motivated to save a loved one. He told Dan he tried to intervene several
times, making things worse, till he finally took a selfless act, making
sure she never met him.

Ever vengeful, the Timeline Manipulator decreed that he shall be
institutionalized and that he'd die at the appointed time, whether by
someone else's hand or by natural causes.

He got to have one romantic dance with his wife, then died. That's one
tough retirement program, not even a gold watch.

>Back to Dan and Katie, and Katie suggesting the drugs that this
>other traveler had taken (he was in an asylum) could be used by
>Dan to suppress his travels. Dan declines, telling Katie he believes
>what he's doing is important. He says he'd understand if she wants
>out, but Katie doesn't and they agree to stay together.

That's why the show was so good. Katie loves him, but it's really hard
on her and even if she thinks Dan is Doing Good, she selfishly wants him
all to herself. She's human. It's believable. Still she asked him to
always come back to her.

I stuck with the show SPECIFICALLY because the characters were drawn so
well and their marriage was believable. I did not like the "A" plots of
the early episodes, which I found boring. By the series end, they mostly
made the plots more interesting, although I agree with others who
criticized the introduction of metaphysics on the penultimate episode.

>Earlier, Katie asked to see Dan disappear (as Zach had), but Katie's
>sister was there so she couldn't. Later though, in perhaps the very
>last scene of the series, Dan wakes up and realizes he's about to
>travel. Sitting in a chair a sleeping Katie is facing, he calls to wake
>her up. He beams out and then the very last shot is of Katie having
>seen it, with a zoom into the reflection of that in her eye.

>Very, very nice send-off to the series if that's all there is,

It really was. I'm particularly greatful to the producers that, while
the long-term mystery remained, short-term plot threads were wrapped up
nicely. Unlike too many other shows, they didn't try to temporarily
break up Dan and Katie. It ended on a bit of magic.

I know the sister-in-law was supposed to be obnoxious, but that was weak
writing. If the producers had to have some character always trying to
break up Dan and Katie (as if they didn't have enough problems), why not
just leave Jack in the dark? He was more fun. The sister-in-law was on
for several episodes! Took way too long for Katie to tell her to stop
interferring.

>But again if this was it, it was a great 13-ep series that leaves
>viewers wanting more. Kudos to all involved.

Yes, indeed. Ahem, cough hack cough "Dead Zone" hack cough ahem ahem

In article <Xns9A0C8884E9E9jayembeesnurcher@140.99.99.130>,
jayembee <jayembeenospam@snurcher.com> wrote:

> pgalimatias@hotmail.com (Pelerin Galimatias) wrote:
>
> > I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
> > The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
> > NBC for denying me more.
>
> As an episode of the show, I thought it was above-average, but not
> extraordinary, but I have to agree with KalElFan that it did a
> terrific job of wrapping up the first chapter in Dan's life as a
> time-traveler, while leaving a great deal still to be said about
> what's behind it all.
>
> At the end, I felt I had reached the end of the first book of a
> series: one that had its own resolution, but left more story to
> be told.
>
> > I'm not watching what fills its space.
>
> Don't be an idiot. Not watching what replaces it isn't going to
> bring JOURNEYMAN back.
>
> I'll be watching what replaces it, because I *like* what's
> replacing it: the next season of MEDIUM.

I'm not watching what fills its space.

:)

--
R.I.P. Bionic Woman:
The latest reason the WGA should revoke Laeta Kalogridis's union card,
or shut their doors in shame.

Robin Miller <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:

>Sorry to follow myself up, but I've just read some of the other threads. We
>lose The 4400, The Dead Zone, and Journeyman all on the same day? Wow.

We lost "The Dead Zone" when they wrote that awful sixth season. I
watched each episode, but perhaps two were tolerable. The show went
entirely off track.

"The 4400" had a decent season, a vast improvement over the third
season, so perhaps they would have wrapped up the story arc with a
decent explanation for what was going on.

M. Halbrook <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Robin Miller" <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:

>>Me three. It's a shame so many genre shows have started slowly the last
>>couple of years.

>In the past, they'd have had a chance. Cheers took a few years to catch
>on. Now, there isn't any time given to work.

Cheers would have been cancelled, but it was championed by a top network
executive who liked it.

"David Chesler" <chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:3aa45680-e221-4191-bf7b-311abde32c5b@a35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 20, 5:03 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> > SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
>>
>
>
>

> 1. Evans had been doing it 15 years. We don't know when he started
> the journal. (And when and why did he collect those those artifiacts,
> the ring and the video? BTW, what format was that video?)
>


I think it was video8
http://www.mediacollege.com/video/format/8mm/video8.html

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:476a7d4d$0$47152$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readf reenews.net...
> Robin Miller <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:
>
>>Sorry to follow myself up, but I've just read some of the other threads.
>>We
>>lose The 4400, The Dead Zone, and Journeyman all on the same day? Wow.
>
> We lost "The Dead Zone" when they wrote that awful sixth season. I
> watched each episode, but perhaps two were tolerable. The show went
> entirely off track.


Oh, I agree, it was horrible. They ditched all the characters in order to
save money and it just left a shell of a show. And then to see Rev. Purdy
show up as the head replicator...


> "The 4400" had a decent season, a vast improvement over the third
> season, so perhaps they would have wrapped up the story arc with a
> decent explanation for what was going on.


Joel Gretsch loses two gigs in the same say...

As was mentioned in one of the original threads on the announcement, the
problems with Billy Campbell and Laura Allen really handicapped the show,
perhaps forcing the writers to go in different directions than they would
have otherwise.

--Robin

Crowfoot wrote:

> For a very different treatment of this idea, not on screen but in print,
> check out a series by Kage Baker, which is about time travelers from
> all over history who are sent back to rescue persons and significant
> artifacts. Their food/drink of choice, by the way, is "theobroma" --
> chocolate . . . she has a very convincing and evolved approach to the
> whole going-back-to-do-X idea.

Theobroma is their crack.... I love Kage Baker's company books!

On Dec 20, 9:33 am, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> Robin Miller <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:
> >Sorry to follow myself up, but I've just read some of the other threads. We
> >lose The 4400, The Dead Zone, and Journeyman all on the same day? Wow.
>
> We lost "The Dead Zone" when they wrote that awful sixth season. I
> watched each episode, but perhaps two were tolerable. The show went
> entirely off track.

IIRC, they had just re-introduced Armageddon, and we were cliff-
hanging to find out why it was still going to happen and all that. I
was looking forward to it this summer. I also thought USA had a good
schedule thing going, owning the summers. So I'm surprised as well as
disappointed.

> "The 4400" had a decent season, a vast improvement over the third
> season, so perhaps they would have wrapped up the story arc with a
> decent explanation for what was going on.

IIRC we were seeing a lot more of the future towards the end of last
season, and I was looking for that wrap-up as well.

Oh well, I've got a mess of DVDs I haven't gotten around to watching,
and a bunch more that I haven't even bought/rented; if I've got the
time to watch TV I'll have material.

And if we're still under the cone of spoilage for Journeyman,
didjanotice that Senator Craig was resigning on the air when they
revisited September? I'd have to check but I don't think that was in
the background in the original episode. (I was a late start, so I
didn't actually see those incidents, if they were shown, in the first
episodes. I hope I get a chance to watch them on DVD or USA or
something sometime.)

--
- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu>
Free Cory Maye

"Deke" <no spam@starband.net> wrote in message
news:bb7a9$476a0270$943f4036$16733@STARBAND.NET...
>
> (snip)
>> >
>> I just watched the last Journeyman. Damn the writers and producers.
>> The last episode was so damn good that if this is the end I'll hate
>> NBC for denying me more. I'm not watching what fills its space.
>>
> Ditto. No NBC for me till Medium starts, it has nothing else that
> interests
> me.
>
>
Really? I loved Journeyman...but...Life...Heroes...30 Rock...My Name is
Earl...I like more. Then there are even a few others I won't stop watching
because of my disappointment.

I just think these networks ALL quit to quickly on shows for their own good.
There have been many far better shows (IMO of course) to be cancelled after
one season...as well as quite a few of late that didn't even air all the
episodes produced. That's what really astounds me...to spend all that money
on a production...then leave some in the can. While showing reruns!

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:54:15 -0600, "Victor Velazquez"
<k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns9A0BEECD24564mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...
>> "Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:
>>
>>> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
>>> Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
>>> in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>>
>> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
>> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
>
>Then what was Dan going back in time (twice!) to fix?
>

Dan was going back in time to break up the Councilman's marriage and
very possibly keep him from ascending to higher political office.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:07:37 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>"M. Halbrook" wrote:
>
>> "Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:
>>
>> > If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
>> > Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
>> > in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>>
>> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
>> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
>
>Why would one time traveler need to die to allow another one to start?

Conservation of energy.

"David Johnston" <david@block.net> wrote in message
news:26flm3hipamreacq9vd9gaku2i3frkgh5v@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:54:15 -0600, "Victor Velazquez"
> <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:Xns9A0BEECD24564mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...
>>> "Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
>>>> Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
>>>> in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>>>
>>> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
>>> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
>>
>>Then what was Dan going back in time (twice!) to fix?
>>
>
> Dan was going back in time to break up the Councilman's marriage and
> very possibly keep him from ascending to higher political office.

Oh, so all the stuff with the other traveler was something of a red herring,
right?

Robin Miller <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:

>As was mentioned in one of the original threads on the announcement, the
>problems with Billy Campbell and Laura Allen really handicapped the show,
>perhaps forcing the writers to go in different directions than they would
>have otherwise.

I suppose. It doesn't explain a completely different direction with the
beings from the future, or why they got rid of the son and then brought
him back, why they gave Tom an instant fantasy wife then got rid of her,
any justification for any of Isabelle's plots, etc. When they brought
back Isabelle's father in the fourth season, for a moment it looked like
they were going to de-grow Isabelle and have the father raise her right,
which would have been an interesting development.

And we saw too little of Maia, in my opinion, the creepiest of all the 4400s.
They set her up so that she'd be the most important of the 4400s to
"preserving the future", then marginalized her.

Billy Campbell's loss hurt the show, but Laura Allen ain't responsible
for the Isabelle fiasco. Hell, they had a decent actor to replace
Campbell in Garret Dillahunt, but instead they used him to introduce
those other representatives of the future, then killed him off, then
changed his side's direction into a Founders-style conspiracy.

Spoilers for "Perfidia," 12/19/07.

..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..

"Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> writes:

: "M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:Xns9A0BEECD24564mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...

:: Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3
:: times tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
:
: Then what was Dan going back in time (twice!) to fix?

Given what ended up happening, I thought that the controller was giving
Crazy Traveler one last dance so that he could die happy. Also so that
his once-wife would be steered off the path that she was on with the
politician, whom she didn't seem to like much. From what he had said,
he went off mission in order to save her life before. Maybe one last
dance for both of them was the best that the controller could do given
the situation that Crazy Traveler had left him with.

It suggests that the only thing that the controller cannot foresee with
almost omniscient accuracy is the individual decisions of travelers when
they're on missions.

They seemed to be suggesting that only people born during the appearance
of Time Travelers' Comet (I forget the name of it) would end up becoming
travelers. But if only Dan and Livia were born at those times in the
20th century, then how did Crazy Traveler become a traveler? Or is the
comet just a propitious sign? Maybe those not born under the sign of
the comet are the ones that go crazy from the stress of traveling?

-Micky

On 20 Dec 2007 14:36:06 GMT, "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>M. Halbrook <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>"Robin Miller" <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:
>
>>>Me three. It's a shame so many genre shows have started slowly the last
>>>couple of years.
>
>>In the past, they'd have had a chance. Cheers took a few years to catch
>>on. Now, there isn't any time given to work.
>
>Cheers would have been cancelled, but it was championed by a top network
>executive who liked it.

Of course personally I thought it would have been a better world
without Cheers.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:59:48 +0000 (UTC),
MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

:They seemed to be suggesting that only people born during the appearance
:of Time Travelers' Comet (I forget the name of it) would end up becoming
:travelers. But if only Dan and Livia were born at those times in the
:20th century, then how did Crazy Traveler become a traveler?

It's never been said that only Dan and Livia were
born at those times (well, not on the show).
--
/buddha@nirvana.net/h:k

George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote in
news:fkehjk$euo$1@pcls6.std.com:

> Spoilers for "Perfidia," 12/19/07.
>
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> Given what ended up happening, I thought that the controller was
> giving Crazy Traveler one last dance so that he could die happy. Also
> so that his once-wife would be steered off the path that she was on
> with the politician, whom she didn't seem to like much. From what he
> had said, he went off mission in order to save her life before. Maybe
> one last dance for both of them was the best that the controller could
> do given the situation that Crazy Traveler had left him with.
>
> It suggests that the only thing that the controller cannot foresee
> with almost omniscient accuracy is the individual decisions of
> travelers when they're on missions.
>
> They seemed to be suggesting that only people born during the
> appearance of Time Travelers' Comet (I forget the name of it) would
> end up becoming travelers. But if only Dan and Livia were born at
> those times in the 20th century, then how did Crazy Traveler become a
> traveler? Or is the comet just a propitious sign? Maybe those not
> born under the sign of the comet are the ones that go crazy from the
> stress of traveling?

I think Dan went back this time so that he could get a better idea what
was happening to him. In addition, he got Evan's notebook, and he might
learn something from reading it. Giving Evan a last dance with his wife
might have been a side effect.

They never did ask Evan what his birthday was. He might have the same
birthday as Dan. With all the travelling, maybe he just hasn't aged
well.

--
Geoff

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:59:48 +0000 (UTC),
MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:


>They seemed to be suggesting that only people born during the appearance
>of Time Travelers' Comet (I forget the name of it) would end up becoming
>travelers. But if only Dan and Livia were born at those times in the
>20th century, then how did Crazy Traveler become a traveler?

Who said only Dan and Livia were the only ones born at those times?

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:28:30 -0600, "Victor Velazquez"
<k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"David Johnston" <david@block.net> wrote in message
>news:26flm3hipamreacq9vd9gaku2i3frkgh5v@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:54:15 -0600, "Victor Velazquez"
>> <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:Xns9A0BEECD24564mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...
>>>> "Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:
>>>>
>>>>> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
>>>>> Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
>>>>> in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>>>>
>>>> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
>>>> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
>>>
>>>Then what was Dan going back in time (twice!) to fix?
>>>
>>
>> Dan was going back in time to break up the Councilman's marriage and
>> very possibly keep him from ascending to higher political office.
>
>Oh, so all the stuff with the other traveler was something of a red herring,
>right?
>

I think so, yeah although meeting the other traveler helped Dan and
encouraged him to avoid going off the rails. But quite often the
person whose life Dan interfered with is not in the end the person Dan
was supposed to help.

"Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1ZCdnYRkZvKX6ffanZ2dnUVZ_uKpnZ2d@comcast.com:

>> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
>> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
>
> Then what was Dan going back in time (twice!) to fix?

The former wife's life.

"Dano" <janeanddano@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:E8KdnfBXSqxwNvfanZ2dnUVZ_o2vnZ2d@comcast.com:

> That's what really astounds me...to spend all that money
> on a production...then leave some in the can. While showing reruns!
>

If they did that, then the killed show may actually get an audience, and
then they'd have to admit they were wrong and try to bring it back.

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in news:476A3EE9.EEF0DB85
@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us:

>> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
>> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
>
> Why would one time traveler need to die to allow another one to start?
>

Only two there are, no more no less, a master and an apprentice :D

Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>Spoilers for "Perfidia," 12/19/07.
>
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>

>They seemed to be suggesting that only people born during the appearance
>of Time Travelers' Comet (I forget the name of it) would end up becoming
>travelers. But if only Dan and Livia were born at those times in the
>20th century, then how did Crazy Traveler become a traveler? Or is the
>comet just a propitious sign? Maybe those not born under the sign of
>the comet are the ones that go crazy from the stress of traveling?

I'm going to give the producers credit and believe that if the show had
survived they would have dropped the metaphysical back story for being
insulting to the audience.

In article <476ac8e5$0$47149$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreene ws.net>,
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Robin Miller <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:
>
> >As was mentioned in one of the original threads on the announcement, the
> >problems with Billy Campbell and Laura Allen really handicapped the show,
> >perhaps forcing the writers to go in different directions than they would
> >have otherwise.
>
> I suppose. It doesn't explain a completely different direction with the
> beings from the future, or why they got rid of the son and then brought
> him back, why they gave Tom an instant fantasy wife then got rid of her,
> any justification for any of Isabelle's plots, etc. When they brought
> back Isabelle's father in the fourth season, for a moment it looked like
> they were going to de-grow Isabelle and have the father raise her right,
> which would have been an interesting development.
>
> And we saw too little of Maia, in my opinion, the creepiest of all the 4400s.
> They set her up so that she'd be the most important of the 4400s to
> "preserving the future", then marginalized her.
>
> Billy Campbell's loss hurt the show, but Laura Allen ain't responsible
> for the Isabelle fiasco. Hell, they had a decent actor to replace
> Campbell in Garret Dillahunt, but instead they used him to introduce
> those other representatives of the future, then killed him off, then
> changed his side's direction into a Founders-style conspiracy.

Other than that they were pretty much on track though.

--
R.I.P. Bionic Woman:
The latest reason the WGA should revoke Laeta Kalogridis's union card,
or shut their doors in shame.

On Dec 20, 2:28 am, "M. Halbrook" <mdhalbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Victor Velazquez" <k-can...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.co m:
>
> > If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
> > Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
> > in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>
> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.

No, we never saw him die, just because he had no pulse when they were
taking him in the ambulance means nothing. They could have revived him
and maybe he is travelling again. Maybe his heart attack was just his
body clearing out the last of the sedatives that were preventing him
from traveling. We don't know that he had to die in order for Dan to
begin travelling. If the show went on, I'm sure we'd see him again in
Season 2.

"M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0C914B1C031mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...
> "Dano" <janeanddano@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:E8KdnfBXSqxwNvfanZ2dnUVZ_o2vnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>> That's what really astounds me...to spend all that money
>> on a production...then leave some in the can. While showing reruns!
>>
>
> If they did that, then the killed show may actually get an audience, and
> then they'd have to admit they were wrong and try to bring it back.

Well that would be a real tragedy now wouldn't it? To have a successful
show.

Anim8rFSK <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote:

> jayembee <jayembeenospam@snurcher.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll be watching what replaces it, because I *like* what's
>> replacing it: the next season of MEDIUM.
>
> I'm not watching what fills its space.
>
>:)

Yeah, but we already know about your blinders.

-- jayembee

Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:37:38 -0500 from KalElFan
<kalelfanNOSPAM@yahoo.com>:
> But again if this was it, it was a great 13-ep series that leaves
> viewers wanting more. Kudos to all involved.

Hear, hear! Monday's episode was one of the best things I've seen on
TV this season, and yesterday's was nearly as good. The series
floundered a bit around episodes 6-10, but it came back strong and I
wish NBC had had more faith in it.

I just hate network execs' short attention spans! And it's not like
they've got great stuff to run as replacements -- instead we get more
dreck like 1 versus 100.

Many all-time great series, like Barney Miller and IIRC All in the
Family, took at least half a season to settle in, show their true
worth, and get viewers. I don't know that Journeyman was in that
class, but it certainly showed potential to grow into a solid
performer. If today's execs had been in charge back then we never
would have had great series because they are unwilling to give a show
time to build.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"You may be the Universe's butt puppet, but I'm its right-
hand fist of fate." -- /Wonderfalls/

MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

> They seemed to be suggesting that only people born during the
> appearance of Time Travelers' Comet (I forget the name of it)
> would end up becoming travelers.

Weeeellllll...no. All we know is that the appearances of that comet
correspond to the births of two travelers. It could be a coincidence,
it could be significant only in how Dan and Livia seem linked.

> But if only Dan and Livia were born at those times in the 20th
> century, then how did Crazy Traveler become a traveler?

We don't know that Dan and Livia are the only two born during the
comet's appearances. Given that we've only met three travelers,
know the birthdates for two of them, and have no idea whether any
of the other travelers have corresponding birthdates, you seem
to be assuming facts not in evidence.

-- jayembee

David Chesler wrote:

> On Dec 20, 5:03 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>>>SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
>>
>
>
>
>>I have a better idea for Evans: Go back to assassinate the person who had
>>murdered his wife!
>
>
> He said he tried to fix things but it kept getting worse. This
> follows what we learned from Livia in the 2-parter.


My daughter said "His wife's dead. How is it getting worse?"

Anim8rFSK <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>Robin Miller <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:

>>>As was mentioned in one of the original threads on the announcement, the
>>>problems with Billy Campbell and Laura Allen really handicapped the show,
>>>perhaps forcing the writers to go in different directions than they would
>>>have otherwise.

>>I suppose. It doesn't explain a completely different direction with the
>>beings from the future, or why they got rid of the son and then brought
>>him back, why they gave Tom an instant fantasy wife then got rid of her,
>>any justification for any of Isabelle's plots, etc. When they brought
>>back Isabelle's father in the fourth season, for a moment it looked like
>>they were going to de-grow Isabelle and have the father raise her right,
>>which would have been an interesting development.

>>And we saw too little of Maia, in my opinion, the creepiest of all the 4400s.
>>They set her up so that she'd be the most important of the 4400s to
>>"preserving the future", then marginalized her.

>>Billy Campbell's loss hurt the show, but Laura Allen ain't responsible
>>for the Isabelle fiasco. Hell, they had a decent actor to replace
>>Campbell in Garret Dillahunt, but instead they used him to introduce
>>those other representatives of the future, then killed him off, then
>>changed his side's direction into a Founders-style conspiracy.

>Other than that they were pretty much on track though.

Hardly. They changed directions in Season 3, changed again in Season 4,
and apparently intended to go elsewhere should there have been a Season 5.

While it would have been impossible to unmish the mosh, perhaps they
could have wrapped things up with some coherence within a single season.

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>Many all-time great series, like Barney Miller and IIRC All in the
>Family, took at least half a season to settle in, show their true
>worth, and get viewers.

Don't agree with you there. Both Barney Miller and All in the Family
showed fine writing throughout the first season. About the only thing
Barney Miller changed was Harris's character, initially a jive-talking
stereotype, toned way down almost immediately.

I'm sure it took the audience a while to find both shows.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 02:00:14 GMT, peachy ashie passion
<exquisitepeach@hotmail.com> wrote:

>David Chesler wrote:
>
>> On Dec 20, 5:03 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>>>>SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I have a better idea for Evans: Go back to assassinate the person who had
>>>murdered his wife!
>>
>>
>> He said he tried to fix things but it kept getting worse. This
>> follows what we learned from Livia in the 2-parter.
>
>
> My daughter said "His wife's dead. How is it getting worse?"

Not only did his wife stay dead, but a lot of other people joined her.

Victor Velazquez wrote:
> "M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A0BEECD24564mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...
>> "Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:
>>
>>> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
>>> Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to
>>> die in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
>>
>> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3
>> times tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
>
> Then what was Dan going back in time (twice!) to fix?

To give him one last dance with the love of his life.

--
Because of heavy computing requirements we are currently using some of
your unallocated brain capacity for backup processing. Please ignore
any hallucinations, voices, or unusual dreams you may experience.
Please avoid concentration intensive tasks until further notice. Thank
you.

Dano wrote:
> "M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A0C914B1C031mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...
>> "Dano" <janeanddano@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:E8KdnfBXSqxwNvfanZ2dnUVZ_o2vnZ2d@comcast.com:
>>
>>> That's what really astounds me...to spend all that money
>>> on a production...then leave some in the can. While showing reruns!
>>>
>>
>> If they did that, then the killed show may actually get an audience,
>> and then they'd have to admit they were wrong and try to bring it
>> back.
>
> Well that would be a real tragedy now wouldn't it? To have a
> successful show.

It used to be fairly common knowledge that the first season of a show was
almost always going to be less than it could have been simply because it
takes time for the crew (writers, actors, regular directors, etc.) to work
the kinks out and get the show's "feel" right. The cable networks seem to
(usually) remember that and give shows a chance to find their feet but the
broadcast networks seem to be in too much of a panic from the increased
competition to remember such basics as that. They're still working with a
pre-cable mentality and seem to not be able to comprehend that the industry
has and still is changing.

--
Because of heavy computing requirements we are currently using some of
your unallocated brain capacity for backup processing. Please ignore
any hallucinations, voices, or unusual dreams you may experience.
Please avoid concentration intensive tasks until further notice. Thank
you.

In article <kaednYlcfsv8X_fanZ2dnUVZ_uOmnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "David Johnston" <david@block.net> wrote in message
> news:26flm3hipamreacq9vd9gaku2i3frkgh5v@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:54:15 -0600, "Victor Velazquez"
> > <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>"M. Halbrook" <mdhalbrook@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:Xns9A0BEECD24564mdhalbrookyahoocom@140.99.99. 130...
> >>> "Victor Velazquez" <k-canute@hotmail.com> wrote in
> >>> news:_tGdnRdqNqXgm_fanZ2dnUVZ_rqlnZ2d@comcast.com:
> >>>
> >>>> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
> >>>> Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to die
> >>>> in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?
> >>>
> >>> Dan needed him to die to be able to travel, How he died changed 3 times
> >>> tho, but he died, how didn't matter.
> >>
> >>Then what was Dan going back in time (twice!) to fix?
> >>
> >
> > Dan was going back in time to break up the Councilman's marriage and
> > very possibly keep him from ascending to higher political office.
>
> Oh, so all the stuff with the other traveler was something of a red herring,
> right?

It was related. The marriage broke up as a result of the other traveler
being able to interact with the wife. Dan was there to help him
accomplish that. In the non-Dan timelines, the guy tried to meet her
himself, but because he acted like a crazy stalker, he always got
himself killed instead. Dan and Livia calmed him down and dressed him
up nice. Also, Dan used his city hall contact and press pass to get
them into the dance.

--
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***

In article <O6Faj.24031$0T3.9409@trnddc08>, exquisitepeach@hotmail.com (peachy ashie passion) writes:
| David Chesler wrote:
|
| > On Dec 20, 5:03 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
| >
| >>>SPOILER warning in the thread title and note crossposts...
| >>
| >
| >
| >
| >>I have a better idea for Evans: Go back to assassinate the person who had
| >>murdered his wife!
| >
| >
| > He said he tried to fix things but it kept getting worse. This
| > follows what we learned from Livia in the 2-parter.
|
|
| My daughter said "His wife's dead. How is it getting worse?"

Given the nasty things GTF has done to Dan (who was pretty much cooperating
with GTF to the best of his ability) we probably can't imagine the tortures
it dreamed up for someone who was activley trying to use time travel to
salvage his own life against GTF's wishes. Based on what we have seen,
an obvious approach would be to keep setting up situations where the
wife could be saved, but only at the expense of many other lives. As
long as the leaper hasn't reached GTF's level of immorality that is
always going ot be a great hammer.

The scary thing is that even with what Dan now knows he still thinks he is
working for the good guys.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On Dec 20, 10:31 pm, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
> Given the nasty things GTF has done to Dan (who was pretty much cooperating
> with GTF to the best of his ability) we probably can't imagine the tortures
> it dreamed up for someone who was activley trying to use time travel to
> salvage his own life against GTF's wishes.  Based on what we have seen,
> an obvious approach would be to keep setting up situations where the
> wife could be saved, but only at the expense of many other lives.  As
> long as the leaper hasn't reached GTF's level of immorality that is
> always going ot be a great hammer.
>
> The scary thing is that even with what Dan now knows he still thinks he is
> working for the good guys.

Someone's .sig used to say "Nature doesn't have good and evil, it
only has consequences." You see the bad things that happen from going
off-mission as punishment; it could also be that the leaps are only to
times and places where something that once went wrong can be set
right; almost every other change that could be enacted there and then
would make things worse.

But even as I'm typing I don't believe it -- most of our decisions,
and everybody's decisions, over the years don't have late, bad,
unavoidable consequences. For the "only bad consequences possible"
scenario, we have to believe that this is the second-best of all
possible worlds (where the best of all possible worlds is the timeline
altered as the mission dictates.,)

--
- David Chesler <chesler@post.harvard.edu>
Free Cory Maye

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:03:20 -0800 (PST), David Chesler
<chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote:

>On Dec 20, 10:31 pm, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>> Given the nasty things GTF has done to Dan (who was pretty much cooperating
>> with GTF to the best of his ability) we probably can't imagine the tortures
>> it dreamed up for someone who was activley trying to use time travel to
>> salvage his own life against GTF's wishes.  Based on what we have seen,
>> an obvious approach would be to keep setting up situations where the
>> wife could be saved, but only at the expense of many other lives.  As
>> long as the leaper hasn't reached GTF's level of immorality that is
>> always going ot be a great hammer.
>>
>> The scary thing is that even with what Dan now knows he still thinks he is
>> working for the good guys.
>
> Someone's .sig used to say "Nature doesn't have good and evil, it
>only has consequences." You see the bad things that happen from going
>off-mission as punishment; it could also be that the leaps are only to
>times and places where something that once went wrong can be set
>right; almost every other change that could be enacted there and then
>would make things worse.
>
> But even as I'm typing I don't believe it -- most of our decisions,
>and everybody's decisions, over the years don't have late, bad,
>unavoidable consequences.

But the changes that Dan experienced weren't all that bad. They were
just inconvenient because of the missmatch between his memories and
what "really" happened. It is not some kind of huge tragedy that
Dan's son is now his daughter. It's just something Dan can't cope
with because it's too big a change.



For the "only bad consequences possible"
>scenario, we have to believe that this is the second-best of all
>possible worlds (where the best of all possible worlds is the timeline
>altered as the mission dictates.,)

In article <a01dae2c-235b-44c6-8ac8-935682f004cd@x29g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, chesler@post.harvard.edu (David Chesler) writes:
| On Dec 20, 10:31=A0pm, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
| > Given the nasty things GTF has done to Dan (who was pretty much cooperatin=
| g
| > with GTF to the best of his ability) we probably can't imagine the torture=
| s
| > it dreamed up for someone who was activley trying to use time travel to
| > salvage his own life against GTF's wishes. =A0Based on what we have seen,
| > an obvious approach would be to keep setting up situations where the
| > wife could be saved, but only at the expense of many other lives. =A0As
| > long as the leaper hasn't reached GTF's level of immorality that is
| > always going ot be a great hammer.
| >
| > The scary thing is that even with what Dan now knows he still thinks he is=
|
| > working for the good guys.
|
| Someone's .sig used to say "Nature doesn't have good and evil, it
| only has consequences."

I find it inconceivable that there is not a sentient entity controlling
the leaps, so this seems inapplicable.

| You see the bad things that happen from going
| off-mission as punishment;

I see the bad things that had nothing to do with going off-mission as
"advance punishment" (aka conditioning). Wrecking Dan's car, setting
him up for a hit-and-run-charge, getting him banned from flying, etc.
were intentional (and presumably purposeful) abuse.

| it could also be that the leaps are only to
| times and places where something that once went wrong can be set
| right; almost every other change that could be enacted there and then
| would make things worse.

This would also require that there was no time/place where the wife's
death was the thing that could be set right at reasonable cost. If
there were such a time/place, a benevolent GTF would have sent the
leaper there. That the leaper did find a solution (reminiscent of
the solution in the movie The Butterfly Effect) at all strongly suggests
that the wife's death was not in and of itself "necessary".

| But even as I'm typing I don't believe it -- most of our decisions,
| and everybody's decisions, over the years don't have late, bad,
| unavoidable consequences. For the "only bad consequences possible"
| scenario, we have to believe that this is the second-best of all
| possible worlds (where the best of all possible worlds is the timeline
| altered as the mission dictates.,)

Well, it's second-best only shortly after the earliest thing that needs
to be fixed, and it presumably remains best only between that fix and
the need for the next fix. Our present may be many fixes removed from
best. With a model like that you probably want to make your fixes in
chronological order unless you are really, really clever.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

In article <476b2238$0$47152$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreene ws.net>,
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> Anim8rFSK <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
> >"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> >>Robin Miller <Not_My@Real_Adddress.com> wrote:
>
> >>>As was mentioned in one of the original threads on the announcement, the
> >>>problems with Billy Campbell and Laura Allen really handicapped the show,
> >>>perhaps forcing the writers to go in different directions than they would
> >>>have otherwise.
>
> >>I suppose. It doesn't explain a completely different direction with the
> >>beings from the future, or why they got rid of the son and then brought
> >>him back, why they gave Tom an instant fantasy wife then got rid of her,
> >>any justification for any of Isabelle's plots, etc. When they brought
> >>back Isabelle's father in the fourth season, for a moment it looked like
> >>they were going to de-grow Isabelle and have the father raise her right,
> >>which would have been an interesting development.
>
> >>And we saw too little of Maia, in my opinion, the creepiest of all the
> >>4400s.
> >>They set her up so that she'd be the most important of the 4400s to
> >>"preserving the future", then marginalized her.
>
> >>Billy Campbell's loss hurt the show, but Laura Allen ain't responsible
> >>for the Isabelle fiasco. Hell, they had a decent actor to replace
> >>Campbell in Garret Dillahunt, but instead they used him to introduce
> >>those other representatives of the future, then killed him off, then
> >>changed his side's direction into a Founders-style conspiracy.
>
> >Other than that they were pretty much on track though.
>
> Hardly. They changed directions in Season 3, changed again in Season 4,
> and apparently intended to go elsewhere should there have been a Season 5.

Sarcasm
>
> While it would have been impossible to unmish the mosh, perhaps they
> could have wrapped things up with some coherence within a single season.

--
R.I.P. Bionic Woman:
The latest reason the WGA should revoke Laeta Kalogridis's union card,
or shut their doors in shame.

"David Johnston" <david@block.net> wrote in message
news:1tfmm3188ic1jbratvp2n9e93oi7gea6gg@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:03:20 -0800 (PST), David Chesler
> <chesler@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 20, 10:31 pm, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>>> Given the nasty things GTF has done to Dan (who was pretty much
>>> cooperating
>>> with GTF to the best of his ability) we probably can't imagine the
>>> tortures
>>> it dreamed up for someone who was activley trying to use time travel to
>>> salvage his own life against GTF's wishes. Based on what we have seen,
>>> an obvious approach would be to keep setting up situations where the
>>> wife could be saved, but only at the expense of many other lives. As
>>> long as the leaper hasn't reached GTF's level of immorality that is
>>> always going ot be a great hammer.
>>>
>>> The scary thing is that even with what Dan now knows he still thinks he
>>> is
>>> working for the good guys.
>>
>> Someone's .sig used to say "Nature doesn't have good and evil, it
>>only has consequences." You see the bad things that happen from going
>>off-mission as punishment; it could also be that the leaps are only to
>>times and places where something that once went wrong can be set
>>right; almost every other change that could be enacted there and then
>>would make things worse.
>>
>> But even as I'm typing I don't believe it -- most of our decisions,
>>and everybody's decisions, over the years don't have late, bad,
>>unavoidable consequences.
>
> But the changes that Dan experienced weren't all that bad. They were
> just inconvenient because of the missmatch between his memories and
> what "really" happened. It is not some kind of huge tragedy that
> Dan's son is now his daughter.

You say that only because you're not the one who's wiped out of existence.
Ask the boy if he minds being replaced or how huge a tragedy it is from his
perspective to no longer exist.

On 21 Dec 2007 05:07:41 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:


>| it could also be that the leaps are only to
>| times and places where something that once went wrong can be set
>| right; almost every other change that could be enacted there and then
>| would make things worse.
>
>This would also require that there was no time/place where the wife's
>death was the thing that could be set right at reasonable cost. If
>there were such a time/place, a benevolent GTF would have sent the
>leaper there. That the leaper did find a solution (reminiscent of
>the solution in the movie The Butterfly Effect) at all strongly suggests
>that the wife's death was not in and of itself "necessary".

The leaper found a solution that ruined his own life and his utility
as a bopper, and may have had worse consequences because she ended up
with a bad man and helped his political career.

In article <clomm31mr80edoh6vtm40hoo4set209bto@4ax.com>, david@block.net (David Johnston) writes:
| On 21 Dec 2007 05:07:41 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
|
|
| >| it could also be that the leaps are only to
| >| times and places where something that once went wrong can be set
| >| right; almost every other change that could be enacted there and then
| >| would make things worse.
| >
| >This would also require that there was no time/place where the wife's
| >death was the thing that could be set right at reasonable cost. If
| >there were such a time/place, a benevolent GTF would have sent the
| >leaper there. That the leaper did find a solution (reminiscent of
| >the solution in the movie The Butterfly Effect) at all strongly suggests
| >that the wife's death was not in and of itself "necessary".
|
| The leaper found a solution that ruined his own life and his utility
| as a bopper, and may have had worse consequences because she ended up
| with a bad man and helped his political career.

Sure, GTF is willing to go to extremes to punish disobedience, even
if it puts one of its own pawns out of commission in the process and
creates potential problems that another leaper has to fix. But since
Dan wasn't required to kill the wife her death itself was apparently
not critical to (GTF's view of) the time line.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On 21 Dec 2007 07:14:04 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

>In article <clomm31mr80edoh6vtm40hoo4set209bto@4ax.com>, david@block.net (David Johnston) writes:
>| On 21 Dec 2007 05:07:41 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>|
>|
>| >| it could also be that the leaps are only to
>| >| times and places where something that once went wrong can be set
>| >| right; almost every other change that could be enacted there and then
>| >| would make things worse.
>| >
>| >This would also require that there was no time/place where the wife's
>| >death was the thing that could be set right at reasonable cost. If
>| >there were such a time/place, a benevolent GTF would have sent the
>| >leaper there. That the leaper did find a solution (reminiscent of
>| >the solution in the movie The Butterfly Effect) at all strongly suggests
>| >that the wife's death was not in and of itself "necessary".
>|
>| The leaper found a solution that ruined his own life and his utility
>| as a bopper, and may have had worse consequences because she ended up
>| with a bad man and helped his political career.
>
>Sure, GTF is willing to go to extremes to punish disobedience,

What do you mean extremes? He did it to himself. He wiped out his
marriage. He told people that he was a time traveller and got himself
locked up in the bin. Just because things happen when these guys
don't follow the mission profile doesn't mean they are being
"punished". It just means that actions have consequences.

Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:06:50 -0600 from Victor Velazquez <k-
canute@hotmail.com>:
> If Crazy Traveler got hit by a bus or shot by the guards, how could
> Dan travel back to keep that from happening when Dan needed CT to
> die in that one particular way for Dan to be able to travel at all?

Two alternative explanations.

EITHER,

Dan *didn't* need Evan to die. For all we know, it's just a
coincidence that Dan started traveling the same day Evan died. We do
know there used to be more travelers (unless Langley's lying about
that); that argues against there being a fixed number of traveler
"slots".

OR,

Even if Evan's death *was* a prerequisite to Dan's traveling, the
story indicates that it did not have to be a death in that particular
way. Dan traveled within the universe where Evan was shot to death,
within the universe where he was struck by a vehicle, and within the
universe where he died on the dance floor.


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"You may be the Universe's butt puppet, but I'm its right-
hand fist of fate." -- /Wonderfalls/

Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:06:50 -0600 from Victor Velazquez <k-
canute@hotmail.com>:
> Forget about losing a day or two
> becasue of the travelling itself, Dan is losing months of work every time he
> changes the timeline!

But he gets it back in the timeline he switches into, because his
self in that timeline will have been doing that work. (It's hard to
express this in tenses that are clear.)

At least, that's assuming that he keeps good notes, and keeps them in
his desk or computer and not in his person. If he keeps his notes in
his head, he's screwed.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"You may be the Universe's butt puppet, but I'm its right-
hand fist of fate." -- /Wonderfalls/

21 Dec 2007 02:22:40 GMT from Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> >Many all-time great series, like Barney Miller and IIRC All in the
> >Family, took at least half a season to settle in, show their true
> >worth, and get viewers.
>
> Don't agree with you there. Both Barney Miller and All in the Family
> showed fine writing throughout the first season. About the only thing
> Barney Miller changed was Harris's character, initially a jive-talking
> stereotype, toned way down almost immediately.

I've got the first season on Barney Miller on DVD, and while there
was a lot that was good, there was a lot that was weak too. I'm
thinking particularly of the first episode here, but I remember being
disappointed with several episodes and feeling that they were
definitely inferior to later ones.

Not that the show was bad, just that it took some time to get as good
as the show I remembered.

> I'm sure it took the audience a while to find both shows.

And that's the point, really. Back then the execs would give shows
time to find an audience; now they don't.

Fox is the worst. At least NBC actually put all 13 episodes of
Journeyman on the air without making us buy the DVDs like Fox with
Wonderfalls, Firefly, Tru Caling, ....

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"You may be the Universe's butt puppet, but I'm its right-
hand fist of fate." -- /Wonderfalls/

Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:15:25 -0500 from Barry Margolin
<barmar@alum.mit.edu>:
> The marriage broke up as a result of the other traveler
> being able to interact with the wife. Dan was there to help him
> accomplish that.

That to me was the least credible part of the episode. It made no
sense that she should begin to recall, even dimly, her life from
other timelines, since for *this* Lauren those other timelines had
never existed.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"You may be the Universe's butt puppet, but I'm its right-
hand fist of fate." -- /Wonderfalls/

Stan Brown wrote:

> Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:15:25 -0500 from Barry Margolin
> <barmar@alum.mit.edu>:
>
>>The marriage broke up as a result of the other traveler
>>being able to interact with the wife. Dan was there to help him
>>accomplish that.
>
>
> That to me was the least credible part of the episode. It made no
> sense that she should begin to recall, even dimly, her life from
> other timelines, since for *this* Lauren those other timelines had
> never existed.
>
I don't think she remembered him at all. But she did feel attracted
to him. She said she sort of, may have vaguely remembered him from
college because she didn't have any other way of explaining why
she did feel that attraction.

Alane

Stan Brown wrote:

> Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:15:25 -0500 from Barry Margolin
> <barmar@alum.mit.edu>: