"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:JtA0FG.41w@kithrup.com...
> In article <JtA0AA.3qL@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <YG%9j.127$lo5.53@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
>>Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>How about Alan Rickman as the voice of Smaug?
>>
>>Oh yes, indeed. T. A. Shippey points out that Smaug talks like a
>>man of the twentieth century (the other one who does so is
>>Saruman), and further compares him to a acerbic middle-aged
>>colonel who is offended by Bilbo's presumptuousness -- he hasn't
>>even been introduced.
>
> But on second thought, I take it back. Provisionally, because
> they wouldn't appear in the same movie, so double-casting him
> *might* work. But I'd definitely cast Rickman as Denethor.

Well done. It would have to be a deleted scene, but I'd love to see
what Rickman does when Gandalf tries to hit him with his staff.

In article <ED1aj.80743$Um6.15040@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>news:JtA0FG.41w@kithrup.com...
>> In article <JtA0AA.3qL@kithrup.com>,
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>In article <YG%9j.127$lo5.53@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
>>>Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>How about Alan Rickman as the voice of Smaug?
>>>
>>>Oh yes, indeed. T. A. Shippey points out that Smaug talks like a
>>>man of the twentieth century (the other one who does so is
>>>Saruman), and further compares him to a acerbic middle-aged
>>>colonel who is offended by Bilbo's presumptuousness -- he hasn't
>>>even been introduced.
>>
>> But on second thought, I take it back. Provisionally, because
>> they wouldn't appear in the same movie, so double-casting him
>> *might* work. But I'd definitely cast Rickman as Denethor.
>
>Well done. It would have to be a deleted scene, but I'd love to see
>what Rickman does when Gandalf tries to hit him with his staff.

What scene would that be? The closest thing I recall in the way
of physical violence by Gandalf against Denethor was dragging
Faramir away from him.

If you're referring to a scene in the Jacksonian third movie, I
was so disgusted by the second that I never saw the third.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:JtA82r.DHK@kithrup.com...
> In article <ED1aj.80743$Um6.15040@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
> Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>>news:JtA0FG.41w@kithrup.com...
>>> In article <JtA0AA.3qL@kithrup.com>,
>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>In article <YG%9j.127$lo5.53@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
>>>>Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>How about Alan Rickman as the voice of Smaug?
>>>>
>>>>Oh yes, indeed. T. A. Shippey points out that Smaug talks like a
>>>>man of the twentieth century (the other one who does so is
>>>>Saruman), and further compares him to a acerbic middle-aged
>>>>colonel who is offended by Bilbo's presumptuousness -- he hasn't
>>>>even been introduced.
>>>
>>> But on second thought, I take it back. Provisionally, because
>>> they wouldn't appear in the same movie, so double-casting him
>>> *might* work. But I'd definitely cast Rickman as Denethor.
>>
>>Well done. It would have to be a deleted scene, but I'd love to see
>>what Rickman does when Gandalf tries to hit him with his staff.
>
> What scene would that be? The closest thing I recall in the way
> of physical violence by Gandalf against Denethor was dragging
> Faramir away from him.
>
> If you're referring to a scene in the Jacksonian third movie,

Yup.

> I was so disgusted by the second that I never saw the third.

Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.

In article <G03aj.73$pA7.26@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,
Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>news:JtA82r.DHK@kithrup.com...
>> In article <ED1aj.80743$Um6.15040@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
>> Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>>>news:JtA0FG.41w@kithrup.com...
>>>> In article <JtA0AA.3qL@kithrup.com>,
>>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>>In article <YG%9j.127$lo5.53@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
>>>>>Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How about Alan Rickman as the voice of Smaug?
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh yes, indeed. T. A. Shippey points out that Smaug talks like a
>>>>>man of the twentieth century (the other one who does so is
>>>>>Saruman), and further compares him to a acerbic middle-aged
>>>>>colonel who is offended by Bilbo's presumptuousness -- he hasn't
>>>>>even been introduced.
>>>>
>>>> But on second thought, I take it back. Provisionally, because
>>>> they wouldn't appear in the same movie, so double-casting him
>>>> *might* work. But I'd definitely cast Rickman as Denethor.
>>>
>>>Well done. It would have to be a deleted scene, but I'd love to see
>>>what Rickman does when Gandalf tries to hit him with his staff.
>>
>> What scene would that be? The closest thing I recall in the way
>> of physical violence by Gandalf against Denethor was dragging
>> Faramir away from him.
>>
>> If you're referring to a scene in the Jacksonian third movie,
>
>Yup.
>
>> I was so disgusted by the second that I never saw the third.
>
>Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
>portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.

That tragic figure? Feh! Someone please take me to a continuum
where Jackson was strangled at birth.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:56:46 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt, wrote:

>In article <G03aj.73$pA7.26@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,
>Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>>news:JtA82r.DHK@kithrup.com...
>>> In article <ED1aj.80743$Um6.15040@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
>>> Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:JtA0FG.41w@kithrup.com...
>>>>> In article <JtA0AA.3qL@kithrup.com>,
>>>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>In article <YG%9j.127$lo5.53@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
>>>>>>Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How about Alan Rickman as the voice of Smaug?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh yes, indeed. T. A. Shippey points out that Smaug talks like a
>>>>>>man of the twentieth century (the other one who does so is
>>>>>>Saruman), and further compares him to a acerbic middle-aged
>>>>>>colonel who is offended by Bilbo's presumptuousness -- he hasn't
>>>>>>even been introduced.
>>>>>
>>>>> But on second thought, I take it back. Provisionally, because
>>>>> they wouldn't appear in the same movie, so double-casting him
>>>>> *might* work. But I'd definitely cast Rickman as Denethor.
>>>>
>>>>Well done. It would have to be a deleted scene, but I'd love to see
>>>>what Rickman does when Gandalf tries to hit him with his staff.
>>>
>>> What scene would that be? The closest thing I recall in the way
>>> of physical violence by Gandalf against Denethor was dragging
>>> Faramir away from him.
>>>
>>> If you're referring to a scene in the Jacksonian third movie,
>>
>>Yup.
>>
>>> I was so disgusted by the second that I never saw the third.
>>
>>Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
>>portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.
>
>That tragic figure? Feh! Someone please take me to a continuum
>where Jackson was strangled at birth.

Now, now, I was also _profoundly_ irritated by the LOTR movies, particularly the
character of Denethor. And Faramir. And Galadriel. Come to think of it, most
of the characters. But I hardly wish Jackson death or unlife. "Even the wise
cannot see all ends."

Robert
--
"One day Ricky the magic Pixie went to visit Dasily Bumble in her
tumbledown cottage. He found her in the bedroom. Roughly he grabbed
her heavy shoulders pulling her down on to the bed and ripping off
her..." -- MP

In article <jjijm31f1dsbgu73mqhb30dn8v18kr5lt1@4ax.com>,
Robert Massey <broad.winged.hawk@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:56:46 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt, wrote:
>
>>In article <G03aj.73$pA7.26@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,
>>Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>>>news:JtA82r.DHK@kithrup.com...
>>>> In article <ED1aj.80743$Um6.15040@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
>>>> Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:JtA0FG.41w@kithrup.com...
>>>>>> In article <JtA0AA.3qL@kithrup.com>,
>>>>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>In article <YG%9j.127$lo5.53@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
>>>>>>>Mike Schilling <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>How about Alan Rickman as the voice of Smaug?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh yes, indeed. T. A. Shippey points out that Smaug talks like a
>>>>>>>man of the twentieth century (the other one who does so is
>>>>>>>Saruman), and further compares him to a acerbic middle-aged
>>>>>>>colonel who is offended by Bilbo's presumptuousness -- he hasn't
>>>>>>>even been introduced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But on second thought, I take it back. Provisionally, because
>>>>>> they wouldn't appear in the same movie, so double-casting him
>>>>>> *might* work. But I'd definitely cast Rickman as Denethor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well done. It would have to be a deleted scene, but I'd love to see
>>>>>what Rickman does when Gandalf tries to hit him with his staff.
>>>>
>>>> What scene would that be? The closest thing I recall in the way
>>>> of physical violence by Gandalf against Denethor was dragging
>>>> Faramir away from him.
>>>>
>>>> If you're referring to a scene in the Jacksonian third movie,
>>>
>>>Yup.
>>>
>>>> I was so disgusted by the second that I never saw the third.
>>>
>>>Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
>>>portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.
>>
>>That tragic figure? Feh! Someone please take me to a continuum
>>where Jackson was strangled at birth.
>
>Now, now, I was also _profoundly_ irritated by the LOTR movies, particularly the
>character of Denethor. And Faramir. And Galadriel. Come to think of it, most
>of the characters. But I hardly wish Jackson death or unlife. "Even the wise
>cannot see all ends."

He is welcome to go on living in some alternate universe that I
don't live in. Or even in this one, provided he doesn't go into
filmmaking.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

On Dec 18, 11:39 pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
> portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.

Denethor, the father of Boromir and Faramir?

He _was_ contemptible. In the book. Obsessed with the fact that he was
a steward rather than a king, vindictive against Faramir who did not
choose to place all Middle-Earth in jeopardy for the sake of his
ambitions.

When his ambitions were denied, rather than redeeming himself in fight
against Sauron, he chose suicide in a dangerous hour which was no time
for self-indulgence.

What was tragic was rather the deception of Theoden by Wormtongue,
which he overcame, and Theoden's heroic death. Theoden was a hero
whose loss was tragic; Denethor was pathetic.

John Savard

In article <845b3fef-b3b0-4cc7-b9ff-f561bc9a3b9f@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Dec 18, 11:39=A0pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
>> portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.
>
>Denethor, the father of Boromir and Faramir?
>
>He _was_ contemptible. In the book. Obsessed with the fact that he was
>a steward rather than a king,

Well, that's not quite right. It was *Boromir* who was obsessed
with the fact that his father was not king. Denethor's slant was
that although not king, he was by Eru the CEO of Gondor, and
nobody was going to take that away from him ... and that it was
time and his father's time, then he wanted Nothing.

vindictive against Faramir who did not
>choose to place all Middle-Earth in jeopardy for the sake of his
>ambitions.

Well, yes, but mostly for the unpardonable sin of being still
alive when Boromir was dead. Which was merely the latest chapter
in the unpardonable sin of not being Boromir.
>
>When his ambitions were denied, rather than redeeming himself in fight
>against Sauron, he chose suicide in a dangerous hour which was no time
>for self-indulgence.

True, and if he'd been a small person on a small scale, he would
have been merely pathetic. But he was a great man, a great
leader, and one who could have remained great if he hadn't
listened to Sauron's whispers. (An image of Ar-Pharazon, in
fact.) The higher the being, the further it will fall if it
falls. As C. S. Lewis says somewhere, one does not get demons
from fallen mice, but from fallen archangels. Denethor is a
tragic hero in the classical sense, a hero who is brought low
by a tragic flaw. Boromir's was Envy. Denethor's was Pride.

And I still would like to see Alan Rickman play him. In my
mind's eye, Horatio.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:47:36 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Dec 18, 11:39 pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
>> portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.
>
>Denethor, the father of Boromir and Faramir?
>
>He _was_ contemptible. In the book. Obsessed with the fact that he was
>a steward rather than a king, vindictive against Faramir who did not
>choose to place all Middle-Earth in jeopardy for the sake of his
>ambitions.
>
>When his ambitions were denied, rather than redeeming himself in fight
>against Sauron, he chose suicide in a dangerous hour which was no time
>for self-indulgence.
>
>What was tragic was rather the deception of Theoden by Wormtongue,
>which he overcame, and Theoden's heroic death. Theoden was a hero
>whose loss was tragic; Denethor was pathetic.

Of course cutting down his screen time because of time constraints
gave him less of an opportunity to look like a tough guy before his
melt-down, but I wasn't all that impressed with him in the book
either.

Quadibloc wrote:
> On Dec 18, 11:39�pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
> > portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.
>
> Denethor, the father of Boromir and Faramir?
>
> He _was_ contemptible. In the book. Obsessed with the fact that he was
> a steward rather than a king, vindictive against Faramir who did not
> choose to place all Middle-Earth in jeopardy for the sake of his
> ambitions.

In the book, he's a tragic figure. But Jackson was completely
incapable of accomplishing anything of grandeur. And without grandeur
you can't really have that type of tragedy. And so we end up with
Denethor the Flaming Chicken running across the length of an entire
city and plunging off a cliff.

We also have Denethor getting knocked unconscious while his sworn
guards simply stand by and watch it happen. And when Denethor wakes up
later, he apparently doesn't care.

Like most things in ROTK, it was mediocre crap.

:: Denethor, the father of Boromir and Faramir?
:: He _was_ contemptible. In the book. Obsessed with the fact that he
:: was a steward rather than a king, vindictive against Faramir who did
:: not choose to place all Middle-Earth in jeopardy for the sake of his
:: ambitions.

: Justin Alexander <justin@thealexandrian.net>
: In the book, he's a tragic figure.

Why is it "tragic" to have your judgement and common sense
completely short-circuited by royalty-envy? Oh, boo hoo,
I'm not king, boo, hoo, hoo, and now what with the return
of the king and all, I can't order minions around anymore.
Gloom, dispair, and agony on me.

Feh. I don't really see "tragic" there. I could of course be wrong.

This is not, of course, to say that the Jackson treatment is not ungood.


Wayne Throop throopw@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw

On Dec 21, 5:02 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:

> This is not, of course, to say that the Jackson treatment is not ungood.

It could be that it's doubleplusungood, and I'm just too much of an
oldthinker to bellyfeel it.

I thought the first movie's few changes from the book were done for
valid cinematic reasons, although there was one I regretted and felt
was arguable. With the second movie, I did not attempt to keep track,
though.

John Savard

throopw@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote in
news:1198281761@sheol.org:

>:: Denethor, the father of Boromir and Faramir?
>:: He _was_ contemptible. In the book. Obsessed with the fact
>:: that he was a steward rather than a king, vindictive against
>:: Faramir who did not choose to place all Middle-Earth in
>:: jeopardy for the sake of his ambitions.

>: Justin Alexander <justin@thealexandrian.net>
>: In the book, he's a tragic figure.

> Why is it "tragic" to have your judgement and common sense
> completely short-circuited by royalty-envy?

It wasn't. Denethor wasn't remotely short of common sense. If
anything, it was his common sense that led him to be suspicious of
help from half-legendary peoples and putative war-captains whose
primary claim to fame was to be descended from the line that
presided over the end of the North kingdom most of a millennium
ago. (Imagine Gordon Brown being faced with someone claiming to be
the heir of Arthur. a) Why believe him? b) If he is, so what?)

Parenting issues aside, his political instincts were well-suited to
realpolitik and normal military and diplomatic matters, and he'd
run Gondor well for a generation. His instinct to use the most
powerful weapon in the world as a weapon, or failing that to hide
it away, rather than to attempt to send it COD to the one place in
the world that it could immediately win the war for the Enemy,
wasn't bad judgment for those not overly trusting of Providence.
*Gandalf's* plan was the Hail Elbereth pass. Denethor's strategy
was a probable loser (and he knew it-- hence his despair) but it
was the straightforward sensible option.

And Faramir's coming into contact with the one thing that could
forestall Gondor being ground down by superior numbers and sending
it on to try to get past Sauron's garrisons would be enough to
madden even someone not grieving his favored son. Even if it would
work in theory, you might as well send an untrained private who
knew no German on a mission to walk to Berlin in 1943.

> Oh, boo hoo,
> I'm not king, boo, hoo, hoo, and now what with the return
> of the king and all, I can't order minions around anymore.

Denethor was too proud to declare himself an illegitimate king
rather than a legitimate steward, and said as much to Boromir.
(Who probably would have liked to be King.) And sure, he liked
power more than was ideal. But there are defensible reasons to
question handing over supreme executive power to someone whose
ancestors have been camping out in the North for a time span
comparable to the distance between us and the Norman Conquest, on
the eve of a war that threatens the existence of the state. Or
even to risk a panicked citizenry flocking to a charismatic self-
declared savior to the detriment of things like actually manning
the defenses and making the Enemy pay for every inch of ground.
(In practice, Aragorn knew what he was doing. What guarantee could
Denethor-- even a Denethor utterly free of self-interest-- have
that that would be the case?)

Denethor was wrong, because he lacked the virtue of Faith and gave
into the sin of despair, and because he trusted only in worldly
strength. In other words, he was reasonable-- up to the point when
his nerve broke, and he decided that it was better to die than to
face whatever fate Sauron could cook up for him-- when the right
choices were to be unreasonable: to ride, like Theoden, singing
against impossible odds; to trust, like Faramir, in hopeless plans;
to depend, like Gandalf, on the impossible.

(And it was impossible-- even having reached the heart of the Enemy
realm through thousands of soldiers and worse monsters, in the
event Frodo couldn't throw the Ring into the Fire. Only "chance,
if chance you call it", prevented disaster. That's not a
reasonable thing to bank on.)

Mike

In article <1198281761@sheol.org>, Wayne Throop <throopw@sheol.org> wrote:
>:: Denethor, the father of Boromir and Faramir?
>:: He _was_ contemptible. In the book. Obsessed with the fact that he
>:: was a steward rather than a king, vindictive against Faramir who did
>:: not choose to place all Middle-Earth in jeopardy for the sake of his
>:: ambitions.
>
>: Justin Alexander <justin@thealexandrian.net>
>: In the book, he's a tragic figure.
>
>Why is it "tragic" to have your judgement and common sense
>completely short-circuited by royalty-envy? Oh, boo hoo,
>I'm not king, boo, hoo, hoo, and now what with the return
>of the king and all, I can't order minions around anymore.
>Gloom, dispair, and agony on me.

Yeah, but that's not Denethor you're talking about, that's
Boromir. Denethor's stand was that it was his job to run Gondor
until a genuine king of *Gondorian* blood came to take over, and
Aragorn's descent from the Gondorian line was through a female.
I don't know if Gondor had a Salic law, but so far as Denethor
was concerned, Aragorn was an outlander. A mere descendant of
Isildur, not of Anarion.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

In article <Xns9A0DBFFF5D837mss2mediaonenet@130.133.1.4>,
Michael S. Schiffer <mschiffe@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>throopw@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote in
>news:1198281761@sheol.org:
>
>>:: Denethor, the father of Boromir and Faramir?
>>:: He _was_ contemptible. In the book. Obsessed with the fact
>>:: that he was a steward rather than a king, vindictive against
>>:: Faramir who did not choose to place all Middle-Earth in
>>:: jeopardy for the sake of his ambitions.
>
>>: Justin Alexander <justin@thealexandrian.net>
>>: In the book, he's a tragic figure.
>
>> Why is it "tragic" to have your judgement and common sense
>> completely short-circuited by royalty-envy?
>
>It wasn't. Denethor wasn't remotely short of common sense. If
>anything, it was his common sense that led him to be suspicious of
>help from half-legendary peoples and putative war-captains whose
>primary claim to fame was to be descended from the line that
>presided over the end of the North kingdom most of a millennium
>ago. (Imagine Gordon Brown being faced with someone claiming to be
>the heir of Arthur. a) Why believe him? b) If he is, so what?)
>
>Parenting issues aside, his political instincts were well-suited to
>realpolitik and normal military and diplomatic matters, and he'd
>run Gondor well for a generation. His instinct to use the most
>powerful weapon in the world as a weapon, or failing that to hide
>it away, rather than to attempt to send it COD to the one place in
>the world that it could immediately win the war for the Enemy,
>wasn't bad judgment for those not overly trusting of Providence.
>*Gandalf's* plan was the Hail Elbereth pass. Denethor's strategy
>was a probable loser (and he knew it-- hence his despair) but it
>was the straightforward sensible option.

Well said.
>
>And Faramir's coming into contact with the one thing that could
>forestall Gondor being ground down by superior numbers and sending
>it on to try to get past Sauron's garrisons would be enough to
>madden even someone not grieving his favored son. Even if it would
>work in theory, you might as well send an untrained private who
>knew no German on a mission to walk to Berlin in 1943.

Actually, since you put it that way, consider Rudolf Hess. He
was Hitler's Number Two, and he took a plane and parachuted into
Britain, expecting to be allowed to walk into Buckingham Palace
and argue with King George that for him to surrender to Germany
would be the best thing for Britain. Even Hitler, if he'd been
consulted, would have said that was crazy.
>
>Denethor was too proud to declare himself an illegitimate king
>rather than a legitimate steward, and said as much to Boromir.

"Boromir used to ask his father, 'How long does it take to make a
Steward a King, if the King come not'? 'Not long, perhaps, in
places of less royalty. In Gondor, not a thousand generations
would suffice.'"

>(Who probably would have liked to be King.)

No probably about it.

And sure, he liked
>power more than was ideal. But there are defensible reasons to
>question handing over supreme executive power to someone whose
>ancestors have been camping out in the North for a time span
>comparable to the distance between us and the Norman Conquest, on
>the eve of a war that threatens the existence of the state. Or
>even to risk a panicked citizenry flocking to a charismatic self-
>declared savior to the detriment of things like actually manning
>the defenses and making the Enemy pay for every inch of ground.
>(In practice, Aragorn knew what he was doing. What guarantee could
>Denethor-- even a Denethor utterly free of self-interest-- have
>that that would be the case?)
>
>Denethor was wrong, because he lacked the virtue of Faith and gave
>into the sin of despair, and because he trusted only in worldly
>strength. In other words, he was reasonable-- up to the point when
>his nerve broke, and he decided that it was better to die than to
>face whatever fate Sauron could cook up for him-- when the right
>choices were to be unreasonable: to ride, like Theoden, singing
>against impossible odds; to trust, like Faramir, in hopeless plans;
>to depend, like Gandalf, on the impossible.
>
>(And it was impossible-- even having reached the heart of the Enemy
>realm through thousands of soldiers and worse monsters, in the
>event Frodo couldn't throw the Ring into the Fire. Only "chance,
>if chance you call it", prevented disaster. That's not a
>reasonable thing to bank on.)

*Excellent* analysis.

In fact, what Gandalf was banking on was that power which, as he
said to Frodo, had *meant* Bilbo to find the Ring. He trusted in
the One, and his trust was valid.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:00:03 GMT in rec.arts.sf.written,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote,
> Denethor is a
>tragic hero in the classical sense, a hero who is brought low
>by a tragic flaw. Boromir's was Envy. Denethor's was Pride.

Denethor was brought down by Sauron through his use of the Palantir.
Jackson fails to mention that, and IMO it inescapably changes the
view of the tragedy of Denethor, to the point of missing the point.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:00:03 GMT in rec.arts.sf.written,
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote,
>Well, yes, but mostly for the unpardonable sin of being still
>alive when Boromir was dead. Which was merely the latest chapter
>in the unpardonable sin of not being Boromir.

Faramir was the exemplar of the man who could not be tempted by the
power of the ring. "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the
highway." Doubtless something to do with him not being Boromir.
What Jackson did to the character of Faramir is worse than what he
did to Denethor.

..

In article <13mote6s67giucd@corp.supernews.com>,
David Harmon <bad@example.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:00:03 GMT in rec.arts.sf.written,
>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote,
>>Well, yes, but mostly for the unpardonable sin of being still
>>alive when Boromir was dead. Which was merely the latest chapter
>>in the unpardonable sin of not being Boromir.
>
>Faramir was the exemplar of the man who could not be tempted by the
>power of the ring. "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the
>highway." Doubtless something to do with him not being Boromir.
>What Jackson did to the character of Faramir is worse than what he
>did to Denethor.

I never saw Jackson's third film, so I can't say. What he did to
Faramir was pretty awful.

Being now old and not likely to get anyplace, effect-on-the-world-wise,
I prefer to live in a better world, one inside my head, where
Peter Jackson never set hand to camera.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@kithrup.com

On 22 Dec 2007 00:52:18 GMT, Michael S. Schiffer, wrote:

>It wasn't. Denethor wasn't remotely short of common sense. If
>anything, it was his common sense that led him to be suspicious of
>help from half-legendary peoples and putative war-captains whose
>primary claim to fame was to be descended from the line that
>presided over the end of the North kingdom most of a millennium
>ago. (Imagine Gordon Brown being faced with someone claiming to be
>the heir of Arthur. a) Why believe him? b) If he is, so what?)

<snip the rest of an excellent character analysis of Denethor>

Bravo! I was trying to frame a similar reply, but you put it into words far
better than I could have done.
--
"I would shake your hand, but I fear it would come off." --BA 2:2

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:JtFFpu.3By@kithrup.com:

>...Denethor's stand was that it was his job to run Gondor
> until a genuine king of *Gondorian* blood came to take over, and
> Aragorn's descent from the Gondorian line was through a female.
> I don't know if Gondor had a Salic law, but so far as Denethor
> was concerned, Aragorn was an outlander. A mere descendant of
> Isildur, not of Anarion.
>...

The Salic Law question is relevant at least in theory, since Aragorn
was descended from Anarion in the female line. But the reasons
Gondor had rejected Arvedui's claim muddied the waters on the
question somewhat. In the event, I don't think it's fully clear
which of the several theories under which Aragorn might be inheriting
is the controlling one, since (in the absence of Denethor and Boromir
and with the support of Faramir and the prince of Dol Amroth), all
roads point the same way: "heir of the High King Elendil", "heir of
the senior line of Isildur", "descendant of the last-but-one king of
Gondor in Anarion's line", or, for that matter, "acclamation by the
people of the capital, as the victorious leader of the late War". (In
a lesser land than Gondor, that last alone could have been more than
enough by itself, with the existing lords-- faced with a numerous
army now fanatically loyal to the recent arrival-- ratifying the line
of descent while carefully not noticing if the ink isn't dry on the
documentation.)

Mike

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:JtFG8y.3zt@kithrup.com:
>...
>>Denethor was too proud to declare himself an illegitimate king
>>rather than a legitimate steward, and said as much to Boromir.
>
> "Boromir used to ask his father, 'How long does it take to make
> a Steward a King, if the King come not'? 'Not long, perhaps, in
> places of less royalty. In Gondor, not a thousand generations
> would suffice.'"

And that for the Carolingians and, closer to (Tolkien's) home, the
Stuarts and those monarchs whose claims descended from them. (Or
rather, for the royalty of the Frankish lands and of Scotland.)

Mike

Mike Schilling wrote:
> Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series: the
> portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.

It would have worked okay for me if Jackson had simply included some
obvious hint that Denethor had been messing with a Palantir. The
corrupting power of Sauron was well established, and we'd seen a great
leader taken down by the lesser influence of Saruman in the previous
movie, so everything would have fit nicely. Oh well. Maybe Jackson could
edit a Palantir into the pyre scene in a future release, like there was
in the book.

David Harmon wrote:
> Faramir was the exemplar of the man who could not be tempted by the
> power of the ring. "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the
> highway." Doubtless something to do with him not being Boromir.
> What Jackson did to the character of Faramir is worse than what he
> did to Denethor.

After playing up the corrupting power of the ring to such a degree that
Gandalf was terrified of even _touching_ it, I think I'd have considered
Faramir to be an unrealistically saintly being if he weren't the
slightest bit tempted. IMO he turns out to be all the stronger for
having been tempted and then turning away from that temptation.

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 09:47:38 GMT in rec.arts.sf.written, Bryan
Derksen <bryan.derksen@shaw.ca> wrote,
>After playing up the corrupting power of the ring to such a degree that
>Gandalf was terrified of even _touching_ it, I think I'd have considered
>Faramir to be an unrealistically saintly being if he weren't the
>slightest bit tempted. IMO he turns out to be all the stronger for
>having been tempted and then turning away from that temptation.

In some sense, everyone was tempted.

Gandalf said "Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the
Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity,
pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good."

Galadriel says "I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to
ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might
do, should the Great Ring come into my hands"

But at no moment did either of them think that either could wield
the ring and have good come of it. And the same for Faramir. Sure,
he would have been glad to have a powerful weapon with which to
defend the beauty and wisdom of Gondor. But, warned in part by the
fate of Boromir, he knew the "... heirloom of power and peril ... a
fell weapon, perchance devised by the Dark Lord" was not it.

Is that unrealistically saintly? Unrealistically wise is more like
it. Faramir matches Gandalf and Galadriel in understanding just how
bad the results would be: Númenor a kingdom of fear. Is it saintly
not to want that?

But either way, too unrealistic for Peter Jackson, to have a real
hero without his face rubbed in the dirt. I don't even begin to
think that makes him a stronger character. I'd rather believe with
Tolkien that a man can sometimes be unrealistically wise.

~ ~ ~

All that said, I'll repeat what I have said before: I'm exceedingly
glad to have seen Jackson's movies. Flawed though they are, I don't
think anyone alive could have done better (or, why didn't they.)

..

Michael S. Schiffer <mschiffe@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
> *Gandalf's* plan was the Hail Elbereth pass.

See also "what about a catapult?"

--
Nate Edel http://www.cubiclehermit.com/
preferred email |
is "nate" at the | "This is not a funny signature... or is it?"
posting domain |

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 22:49:17 -0800, archmage@sfchat.org (Nate Edel)
wrote:

>Michael S. Schiffer <mschiffe@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:

>> *Gandalf's* plan was the Hail Elbereth pass.
>
>See also "what about a catapult?"

"I don't care who you are, that's funny right there!"
--
"I think between us, Bill Clinton and I have settled any lingering myths
about the brilliance of Rhodes scholars."
Kris Kristofferson

In article <13mote6s67giucd@corp.supernews.com>, source@netcom.com
says...
> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:00:03 GMT in rec.arts.sf.written,
> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote,
> >Well, yes, but mostly for the unpardonable sin of being still
> >alive when Boromir was dead. Which was merely the latest chapter
> >in the unpardonable sin of not being Boromir.
>
> Faramir was the exemplar of the man who could not be tempted by the
> power of the ring. "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the
> highway." Doubtless something to do with him not being Boromir.
> What Jackson did to the character of Faramir is worse than what he
> did to Denethor.
>
I was looking forward to that scene, too, an all too brief respite in
the long weary trek to Mordor. Jackson was warned - in fact the guy who
PLAYED Faramir knew better. Apparently Jackson thought it would damage
people's suspension of disbelief to have someone actually withstand it,
even though Faramir did so without actually SEEING it; refused to in
fact just in case he wasn't as strong as he thought he was. Sigh...
--
Kay Shapero
http://www.kayshapero.net
Address munged - to email use kay at the domain of my website, above.

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:25:15 -0800, Kay Shapero <kay@see.my.sig.invalid>
wrote:

>I was looking forward to that scene, too, an all too brief respite in
>the long weary trek to Mordor. Jackson was warned - in fact the guy who
>PLAYED Faramir knew better. Apparently Jackson thought it would damage
>people's suspension of disbelief to have someone actually withstand it,
>even though Faramir did so without actually SEEING it; refused to in
>fact just in case he wasn't as strong as he thought he was. Sigh...

Show, don't tell.


Jasper

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> True, and if he'd been a small person on a small scale, he would
> have been merely pathetic. But he was a great man, a great
> leader, and one who could have remained great if he hadn't
> listened to Sauron's whispers. (An image of Ar-Pharazon, in
> fact.)

Sauron told Ar-Pharazon lies about why men die and deluded him into
thinking he could confront the Valar on something like equal terms.
To believe Sauron, Ar-Pharazon must have been half-mad to begin with.
What Sauron told Denethor was true; Mordor was growing stronger as
Gondor grew weaker, and soon would be strong enough to defeat it
militarily and enslave its people. The conclusion that Gondor was
doomed and that Denethor had nothing to look forward to but the
destruction of everything his people had build over an entire Age was
actually the logical one. Believing anything else required a mad
faith in prophecies and the doings of wizards and elves. Ar-Pharazon
failed by being a grasping megalomaniac, fueled by his fear of
personal death. Denethor failed by being too much of a cold-blooded
realist, fueled by his horror of the death of the nation he led. I
know which one I feel more sympathy for.

Bryan Derksen wrote:
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>> Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series:
>> the portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.
>
> It would have worked okay for me if Jackson had simply included some
> obvious hint that Denethor had been messing with a Palantir. The
> corrupting power of Sauron was well established, and we'd seen a
> great
> leader taken down by the lesser influence of Saruman in the previous
> movie, so everything would have fit nicely. Oh well. Maybe Jackson
> could edit a Palantir into the pyre scene in a future release, like
> there was in the book.

Sauron shot first?

"Mike Schilling" <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote in news:5aldj.81614
$Um6.63557@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net:

> Bryan Derksen wrote:
>> Mike Schilling wrote:
>>> Good for you; you missed the very worst thing in the whole series:
>>> the portrayal of Denethor as a contemptible loony.
>>
>> It would have worked okay for me if Jackson had simply included some
>> obvious hint that Denethor had been messing with a Palantir. The
>> corrupting power of Sauron was well established, and we'd seen a
>> great
>> leader taken down by the lesser influence of Saruman in the previous
>> movie, so everything would have fit nicely. Oh well. Maybe Jackson
>> could edit a Palantir into the pyre scene in a future release, like
>> there was in the book.
>
> Sauron shot first?

Sauron dropped something into Denethor's drink. He'd also bought out the
staff of the Cantina, and the cops that patrol the neighborhood.

cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.