X-No-Archive: Yes

I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
technology, or things of that nature. These theories usually further
speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
day. As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space. You
have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".

I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
entertaining. I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".

If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
much obliged...

On 19 Dec, 10:17, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
> theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
> travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
> some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
> beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
> technology, or things of that nature. These theories usually further
> speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
> teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
> day. As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
> have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space. You
> have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".
>
> I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
> entertaining. I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
> work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".
>
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

The first part of _2001; A Space Odyssey_ . Perhaps more explicitly,
the related chapters of _The Lost Worlds of 2001_

Cheers,
Nigel.

Mike Hamer wrote:
X-No-Archive: Yes
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes

The Lost Millennium, by Walt and Leigh Richmond
Saucer, by Stephen Coonts

On Dec 19, 6:13 pm, douglas winston <douglas_wins...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
> Mike Hamer wrote:
>
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes
>
> The Lost Millennium, by Walt and Leigh Richmond
> Saucer, by Stephen Coonts

Oh man, the biggest one is Stargate Atlantis.

On 19 Dec, 09:17, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> theories.
>
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

These may not be the ancient astronauts you're looking for, but ...

_Childhood's End_, Arthur C Clarke

"Staras Flonderans", Kate Wilhelm

The Trigon Disunity (_Emprise_, _Empery_, _Enigma_), Michael Kube-
McDowell

The Saga of Pliocene Exile (_The Many Coloured Land_, _The Golden
Torc, _The Non-Born King_, _the Adversary_), Julian May

On Dec 19, 11:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
> theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
> travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
> some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
> beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
> technology, or things of that nature. These theories usually further
> speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
> teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
> day. As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
> have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space. You
> have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".
>
> I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
> entertaining. I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
> work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".
>
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

"Occupation Force" by Frank Herbert. The Area 51books by Robert Doherty

In article <bb8e0356-c1b2-4166-a0b2-50e1020b01ff@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
23vl <2389vbl@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 19, 11:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
>> X-No-Archive: Yes
>>
>> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
>> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
>> theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
>> theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
>> travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
>> some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
>> beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
>> technology, or things of that nature. These theories usually further
>> speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
>> teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
>> day. As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
>> have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space. You
>> have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".
>>
>> I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
>> entertaining. I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
>> work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".
>>
>> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
>> much obliged...
>
>"Occupation Force" by Frank Herbert. The Area 51books by Robert Doherty

"The Green Plague", Larry Niven.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

On Dec 19, 4:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

Hogan's "Giants" trilogy (although opinion varies, I think these
predate the Brain Eater in his career). The first novel begins with
the discovery of a dead, space-suited person on the moon. And he's
been there for thousands of years.

James P. Hogan
"Inherit the Stars"
"The Gentle Giants of Ganymede"
"Giant's Star"

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"It's the little blue guys who never invented electronics and still
received our signal who have a lot to teach us." -- Wildepad

In article <61325667-7066-4b38-824e-fe1b37bed32b@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
JimboCat <103134.3516@compuserve.com> wrote:
>On Dec 19, 4:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
>> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
>> much obliged...
>
>Hogan's "Giants" trilogy (although opinion varies, I think these
>predate the Brain Eater in his career).

One would hope, given that the first book in that series was his
debute.

The later books, which I note you did not mention, have little
nibble marks from the encephalophage.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

A number of Ben Bova's early works. (_Star Guard_ is the one name I can
recall right now). Apparently Neanderthals made it into space, but were
smashed back by baddies for some reason, and a giant weather machine was
left on Ganymede to insure an ice age(?).

In the Perry Rhodan universe, it was strongly hinted (though not confirmed
at the time the US books stopped, iirc) that Earth was a lost colony of
Barkon.

David Weber's "Empire" universe had similar goings on, as does his Armagedon
Reef universe sorta (a "new" ancient astronaut is our viewpoint character).

I suppose you could make an AA arguement for Doc Smith's Lensman books
and Pangborn's _A Mirror for Observers_.


Ted

In article <0Acaj.25389$N67.18@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>A number of Ben Bova's early works. (_Star Guard_ is the one name I can
>recall right now). Apparently Neanderthals made it into space, but were
>smashed back by baddies for some reason, and a giant weather machine was
>left on Ganymede to insure an ice age(?).
>
If I recall correctly, the climate machines are in AS ON A DARKLING
PLAIN and that's connected to one of Bova's better stories, "Stars, Won't
You Hide Me?". As I recall it, the Neandertals got smacked for being
villains to the rest of the galaxy and when the humans turned out to be
more of the same, the great powers of the universe decided to exterminate
us once and for all.




--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

On Dec 19, 4:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> theories. [...]
>
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

For an extreme version, there's David Weber's "Dahak" series:
_Mutineer's Moon_, _The Armageddon Inheritance_, and _Heirs of
Empire_.

Arthur C. Clarke played with this a lot in his short fiction. For
some titles, it would be a spoiler to tell you that the story fits
this category.

David Tate

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) writes:

> In the Perry Rhodan universe, it was strongly hinted (though not confirmed
> at the time the US books stopped, iirc) that Earth was a lost colony of
> Barkon.

And retconned the other way around PR #260 or so: the Akonians (ancestors of
most of the humanoid races in the galaxy, including the Arkonides and their
many offshoots) are in fact a lost colony of Lemuria, the First Humanity,
one of the few colonies to survive the Lemurian/Haluter war semi-intact.
(As opposed to Lemuria/Terra itself, which got so badly trashed it took 50000
years for them to work their way up to basic interplanetary spaceflight again.)

As for Barkon, the authors had it blown up around PR#280 and then
tried to forget about it thereafter. Later (somewhere in the PR
#800s)they retconned the Barkonides *again* into a splinter group from
a race of "ascended beings" (to borrow terminology from Stargate), the
Querionen, who had decided to revert back to a material form. (Why
they told Perry that tale about them being the ancestors of most of
the humanoid races of the galaxy, I have *no* frakking idea.)

In article <x7abo6fr53.fsf@ichotolot.servalan.com>,
Richard Todd <rmtodd@ichotolot.servalan.com> wrote:
>
>
>ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) writes:
>
>> In the Perry Rhodan universe, it was strongly hinted (though not confirmed
>> at the time the US books stopped, iirc) that Earth was a lost colony of
>> Barkon.
>
>And retconned the other way around PR #260 or so: the Akonians (ancestors of
>most of the humanoid races in the galaxy, including the Arkonides and their
>many offshoots) are in fact a lost colony of Lemuria, the First Humanity,
>one of the few colonies to survive the Lemurian/Haluter war semi-intact.
>(As opposed to Lemuria/Terra itself, which got so badly trashed it took 50000
>years for them to work their way up to basic interplanetary spaceflight again.)
>
>As for Barkon, the authors had it blown up around PR#280 and then
>tried to forget about it thereafter. Later (somewhere in the PR
>#800s)they retconned the Barkonides *again* into a splinter group from
>a race of "ascended beings" (to borrow terminology from Stargate), the
>Querionen, who had decided to revert back to a material form. (Why
>they told Perry that tale about them being the ancestors of most of
>the humanoid races of the galaxy, I have *no* frakking idea.)

Aww man. I really liked the idea of the Barkonides making their thousands
of years long sub-light pilgrimage back to the galaxy. (And they got
everything right except reversing the only two wires which would blow
up the planet rather than turn on the space drive).


Ted

xenocyte@gmail.com <xenocyte@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 19 Dec, 09:17, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
>> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
>> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts" theories.
>>
>> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
>> much obliged...
>
>These may not be the ancient astronauts you're looking for, but ...
>
>_Childhood's End_, Arthur C Clarke
>
>"Staras Flonderans", Kate Wilhelm
>
>The Trigon Disunity (_Emprise_, _Empery_, _Enigma_), Michael Kube-
>McDowell
>
>The Saga of Pliocene Exile (_The Many Coloured Land_, _The Golden
>Torc, _The Non-Born King_, _the Adversary_), Julian May

And, expanded onto a galactic-or-larger scale, rather than just confined to
Earth, there's any number of "humanity explores the galaxy and occasionally
comes across Inexplicable And/Or Immensely-Overpowered Leftover Plot Devices",
such as Sheffield's Transcendence series or Niven's stasis boxes.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>JimboCat <103134.3516@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>On Dec 19, 4:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
>>> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
>>> much obliged...
>>
>>Hogan's "Giants" trilogy (although opinion varies, I think these
>>predate the Brain Eater in his career).
>
> One would hope, given that the first book in that series was his
>debute.
>
> The later books, which I note you did not mention, have little
>nibble marks from the encephalophage.

And, as noted earlier, there's now five books in that trilogy; the last two
show some BE signs but less than you might otherwise expect. I actually
finished the last one without becoming frustrated with more than the
already-established babbleon tendencies of some of the characters.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

On Dec 19, 1:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:

> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

Not mentioned yet are Niven's Protector and Ringworld. In the first,
humanity gets seeded from space, and in the second, it turns out that
most are living on a giant, ancient alien artifact, the Ringworld.

Asaros's Skolian series has great space empires of humans, arising
from aliens having seeded other planets from Earth.

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) writes:

> In the Perry Rhodan universe, it was strongly hinted (though not confirmed
> at the time the US books stopped, iirc) that Earth was a lost colony of
> Barkon.

It isn't. Earth is the main world of the Galaxy's and Andromeda's
human populations, be they Tefrodians, Akonians, Terrans or Wegans.

"Mike Hamer" <mikehamer@dontreg.com> wrote in message
news:d43afd1b-1b21-4f42-9637-72112d354366@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
> theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
> travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
> some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
> beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
> technology, or things of that nature. These theories usually further
> speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
> teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
> day. As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
> have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space. You
> have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".
>
> I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
> entertaining. I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
> work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".
>
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...
>


As well as all the others, there is the novel by Buzz Aldrin and John
Barnes, _Encounter with Tiber_. Ancient astronauts, for sure. From Alpha
Centauri.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encounter_With_Tiber

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Mike Hamer wrote:
>
> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
> theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
> travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
> some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
> beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
> technology, or things of that nature.

Terry Pratchett, _Strata_
Daniel Keys Moran, _The Last Dancer_
this webcomic:
http://get-medieval.livejournal.com/738.html

--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgaertner@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"If I let myself get hung up on only doing things that had any actual
chance of success, I'd never do *anything*!" Elan, Order of the Stick

In message <fkbk95$bs5$1@reader1.panix.com>, James Nicoll
<jdnicoll@panix.com> writes
>In article <61325667-7066-4b38-824e-fe1b37bed32b@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>JimboCat <103134.3516@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>On Dec 19, 4:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
>>> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
>>> much obliged...
>>
>>Hogan's "Giants" trilogy (although opinion varies, I think these
>>predate the Brain Eater in his career).
>
> One would hope, given that the first book in that series was his
>debute.
>
> The later books, which I note you did not mention, have little
>nibble marks from the encephalophage.

So, in retrospect, does "Inherit the Stars", with Luna starting off as
Minerva's moon and ending up as the Earth's. (I found it rather a
clanger at the time, even if I didn't recognise it as betokening a
flirtation with Verykookianism.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

On 19 Dec, 10:17, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:

> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

Reynolds' _Pushing Ice_ touches on it, in that the story involves the
chase and eventual colonisation of a moon of Saturn that broke free
and is heading out of the Solar System under power: it's an alien
artifact, though I don't think it was doing much more than monitoring
the system.

In Vonnegut's "Sirens of Titan" human history is manipulated by aliens
for a specific purpose.

Clarke's _2001_ has already been mentioned, with an extraterrestrial
intelligence altering humanity's progress. The original "The
Sentinel", on which _2001_ drew, seems only to have been an alarm
device put on the moon to be set off if and when earthlings got there;
I don't think there were other objects on earth that had actively
educated humans in the way the monoliths did in _2001_ (especially in
the novel version).
--
Nick

In article <ccc3e131-bc86-473d-ab5f-19460708eb02@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Nicholas Waller <testo888@aol.com> wrote:
>On 19 Dec, 10:17, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
>
>> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
>> much obliged...
>
>Reynolds' _Pushing Ice_ touches on it, in that the story involves the
>chase and eventual colonisation of a moon of Saturn that broke free
>and is heading out of the Solar System under power: it's an alien
>artifact, though I don't think it was doing much more than monitoring
>the system.
>
There's also Clarke's "Jupiter V", except the aliens there don't
appear to have taken much notice of Earth at all.

"Jupiter V" was absorbed into the Paul Preuss Venus Prime series.
That one definitely had ancient astronauts, ones who took an interest in
the Earth.

--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

Nicholas Waller <testo888@aol.com> wrote:
>Clarke's _2001_ has already been mentioned, with an extraterrestrial
>intelligence altering humanity's progress. The original "The
>Sentinel", on which _2001_ drew, seems only to have been an alarm
>device put on the moon to be set off if and when earthlings got there;
>I don't think there were other objects on earth that had actively
>educated humans in the way the monoliths did in _2001_ (especially in
>the novel version).

Well, it was a short story, so there may have been but we didn't see them
before the story ended. But yes, The Sentinel's point was "it's an alarm
clock!"...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

David Tate wrote:
> Arthur C. Clarke played with this a lot in his short fiction. For
> some titles, it would be a spoiler to tell you that the story fits
> this category.

But not for "The Possessed", one of his more fanciful on the subject.
Spoiler for those who actually look for them:
<http://arthur-clarke-fansite.blogspot.com/2007/04/possessed-intellect-in-abstract.html>

In article <0Acaj.25389$N67.18@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) said:

> A number of Ben Bova's early works. (_Star Guard_ is the one name
> I can recall right now). Apparently Neanderthals made it into
> space, but were smashed back by baddies for some reason, and a
> giant weather machine was left on Ganymede to insure an ice age(?).

And indeed, Ganymede remains frozen to this very day.

--
William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com>

On Dec 19, 2:13 pm, Stewart Robert Hinsley

> So, in retrospect, does "Inherit the Stars", with Luna starting off as
> Minerva's moon and ending up as the Earth's. (I found it rather a
> clanger at the time, even if I didn't recognise it as betokening a
> flirtation with Verykookianism.)

I thought it was horrific, and was glad that Hogan seemed to improve
later. The Two Faces of Tomorrow and Thrice Upon a Time seemed to me
to show he was getting in the grove of being able to write actual
science fiction. And then...

On Dec 19, 11:06 pm, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
> In article <0Acaj.25389$N67...@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
> t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) said:
>
> > A number of Ben Bova's early works. (_Star Guard_ is the one name
> > I can recall right now). Apparently Neanderthals made it into
> > space, but were smashed back by baddies for some reason, and a
> > giant weather machine was left on Ganymede to insure an ice age(?).
>
> And indeed, Ganymede remains frozen to this very day.

Historically, it seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter for
science fiction purposes. Why is that?

wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) writes:

> In article <0Acaj.25389$N67.18@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
> ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) said:
>
>> A number of Ben Bova's early works. (_Star Guard_ is the one name
>> I can recall right now). Apparently Neanderthals made it into
>> space, but were smashed back by baddies for some reason, and a
>> giant weather machine was left on Ganymede to insure an ice age(?).
>
> And indeed, Ganymede remains frozen to this very day.

Soeaking of Neanderthals: Can anyone identify this story?

French (?) archeologists find an astronaut's helmet and a movie camera
of alien (?) origin and decipher it. They travel to the stars and find
advances Neanderthals whose ancestors got relocated because they were
in danger of being overrun by Cro Magnons, along with part of their
fauna. No big fights.

On Dec 20, 12:12 am, Peter Bruells <user...@rogue.de> wrote:

> French (?) archeologists find an astronaut's helmet and a movie camera
> of alien (?) origin and decipher it. They travel to the stars and find
> advances Neanderthals whose ancestors got relocated because they were
> in danger of being overrun by Cro Magnons, along with part of their
> fauna. No big fights.

If they were in danger of being overrun, they presumably suffered some
serious adaptive disadvantage. Which raises the question, why are the
star Neanderthals now advanced?

Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> writes:

> On Dec 20, 12:12 am, Peter Bruells <user...@rogue.de> wrote:
>
>> French (?) archeologists find an astronaut's helmet and a movie camera
>> of alien (?) origin and decipher it. They travel to the stars and find
>> advanced Neanderthals whose ancestors got relocated because they were
>> in danger of being overrun by Cro Magnons, along with part of their
>> fauna. No big fights.
>
> If they were in danger of being overrun, they presumably suffered some
> serious adaptive disadvantage. Which raises the question, why are the
> star Neanderthals now advanced?

Beats me, I read that book about 30 years ago or so. IIRC they were
telepathic and less violant than Cro-Magnons. So they couldn't
compete with savage humans but they could live with civilized humans.

In message <m2zlw5rb23.fsf@rogue.de>, Peter Bruells <usernet@rogue.de>
writes
>Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Dec 20, 12:12 am, Peter Bruells <user...@rogue.de> wrote:
>>
>>> French (?) archeologists find an astronaut's helmet and a movie camera
>>> of alien (?) origin and decipher it. They travel to the stars and find
>>> advanced Neanderthals whose ancestors got relocated because they were
>>> in danger of being overrun by Cro Magnons, along with part of their
>>> fauna. No big fights.
>>
>> If they were in danger of being overrun, they presumably suffered some
>> serious adaptive disadvantage. Which raises the question, why are the
>> star Neanderthals now advanced?
>
>Beats me, I read that book about 30 years ago or so. IIRC they were
>telepathic and less violant than Cro-Magnons. So they couldn't
>compete with savage humans but they could live with civilized humans.
>
Not the same work, but Dean Ing's "Briar Patch" in the Man-Kzin Wars
series has telepathic Neanderthals.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 19, 11:06 pm, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>> t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) said:
>> > A number of Ben Bova's early works. (_Star Guard_ is the one name
>> > I can recall right now). Apparently Neanderthals made it into
>> > space, but were smashed back by baddies for some reason, and a
>> > giant weather machine was left on Ganymede to insure an ice age(?).
>>
>> And indeed, Ganymede remains frozen to this very day.
>
>Historically, it seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter for
>science fiction purposes. Why is that?

It's the only Galilean one that doesn't end in a vowel?

Dave "so obviously it's the macho one?" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

On Dec 20, 6:28 am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> Gene Ward Smith <genewardsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 19, 11:06 pm, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>
> >> And indeed, Ganymede remains frozen to this very day.
>
> >Historically, it seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter for
> >science fiction purposes. Why is that?
>
> It's the only Galilean one that doesn't end in a vowel?

I assume you mean "doesn't end with a vowel sound", given that it
certainly ends with an 'e'. And, indeed, the Greek name *does* end
with a vowel sound in the standard nominative declension[1]; we just
mispronounce it.

> "so obviously it's the macho one?"

Not to anyone with even a passing awareness of who Ganymede was in
Greek myth.

David Tate

[1] I am *almost* sure of this, and welcome correction from anyone who
knows more Greek than I do, which would be lots of you.

In article <fkd48p$er1$1@panix2.panix.com>,
William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <0Acaj.25389$N67.18@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
>ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) said:
>
>> A number of Ben Bova's early works. (_Star Guard_ is the one name
>> I can recall right now). Apparently Neanderthals made it into
>> space, but were smashed back by baddies for some reason, and a
>> giant weather machine was left on Ganymede to insure an ice age(?).
>
>And indeed, Ganymede remains frozen to this very day.
>
Whoops, I forgot to mention something in my reply: the weather
machines were on Titan.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

In article <df0d56fc-c366-4bcf-8b0e-13f09d981a9a@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 19, 11:06 pm, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>> In article <0Acaj.25389$N67...@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
>> t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) said:
>>
>> > A number of Ben Bova's early works. (_Star Guard_ is the one name
>> > I can recall right now). Apparently Neanderthals made it into
>> > space, but were smashed back by baddies for some reason, and a
>> > giant weather machine was left on Ganymede to insure an ice age(?).
>>
>> And indeed, Ganymede remains frozen to this very day.
>
>Historically, it seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter for
>science fiction purposes. Why is that?
>
It's the largest Galilean moon.

One thing that surprised me about some SF in the early space probe
era is that a lot of authors don't seem to have anticipated the discovery
of more moons around the gas giants.

Ob Cool Science related to gas giant moons: Both Tethys and Dione
appear to be flinging jets of material into space.

http://www.saturntoday.com/news/viewpr.rss.html?pid=24322

--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

On Dec 19, 3:17 am, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
> theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
> travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
> some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
> beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
> technology, or things of that nature. These theories usually further
> speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
> teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
> day. As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
> have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space. You
> have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".
>
> I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
> entertaining. I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
> work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".
>
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

This was going to be a YASID but I managed to find it myself, a fine
example of the primitive-man-meets-space-aliens subgenre:

Murray Leinster, "This Star Shall Be Free", Super Science Stories,
November, 1949; anthologized in Conklin's _Invaders of Earth_etc.

Mike Hamer <mikehamer@dontreg.com> wrote:

>
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...

When I was ten or so, I read a novel that involved an old base on the
Moon where the ancient owners had spoken Sumerian. Does anyone remember
it?

--
Harry Erwin <http://www.theworld.com/~herwin>
My neuroscience wikiwiki is at
<http://scat-he-g4.sunderland.ac.uk/~harryerw/phpwiki/index.php>

James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
> Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>> wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>>> And indeed, Ganymede remains frozen to this very day.

>> Historically, it seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter
>> for science fiction purposes. Why is that?

> It's the largest Galilean moon.

It's the largest moon in the solar system.

> One thing that surprised me about some SF in the early space probe
> era is that a lot of authors don't seem to have anticipated the
> discovery of more moons around the gas giants.

Or maybe they figured that any newly discovered moons would be too
small to be interesting.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

In article <slrnfmkis5.217.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Historically, [Ganymede] seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter
>>for science fiction purposes. Why is that?
>
>It's the only Galilean one that doesn't end in a vowel?
>
>Dave "so obviously it's the macho one?" DeLaney

Its name derives from the mythological figure from whose Roman
name we get the word "catamite". I'll let you decide how macho
that is.

--
David Goldfarb | Nunc, Pince, tibi nocendus sum.
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu |
goldfarb@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Aniinsani

In article <0756d9a7-4b5e-461e-99b9-87dabe640f58@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com>,
David Tate <dtate@ida.org> wrote:
>And, indeed, the Greek name [Ganymede] *does* end
>with a vowel sound in the standard nominative declension[1]; we just
>mispronounce it.
>
>[1] I am *almost* sure of this, and welcome correction from anyone who
>knows more Greek than I do, which would be lots of you.

Actually, when I looked it up I discovered that in Greek the name
ends in an S. (Well, in a sigma.) The English used to translate
Greek and Latin names as roots, leaving off the endings, and Anglicize
them to boot, which is why we speak of Homer, Plato, Virgil, and Horace
rather than Homeros, Platon, Virgilius, and Horatius. I assume that
something similar happened to "Ganymedes".

--
David Goldfarb |"Get your mind out of the gutter -- you're blocking
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu | my snorkel."
goldfarb@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Frank Ney, on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated

David Goldfarb <goldfarb@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>>Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Historically, [Ganymede] seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter
>>>for science fiction purposes. Why is that?
>>
>>It's the only Galilean one that doesn't end in a vowel?
>>
>>Dave "so obviously it's the macho one?" DeLaney
>
>Its name derives from the mythological figure from whose Roman
>name we get the word "catamite". I'll let you decide how macho that is.

Okay, that's now _two_ people who have Gone There, and I've got to ascribe it
to the mainstream not knowing (or actively avoiding learning) any details of
the subculture involved, and depending on stereotypes they've heard about. You
want macho, you don't go to a football game, you go to a leather bar.

(Plus, I'm fairly sure that the people doing the unconscious analysis of the
name, in general, would not go that deep submentally AND mostly would not have
the knowledge handy (more so in recent decades) to make the connection in the
first place.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:17:17 -0500, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David
DeLaney) wrote:

>David Goldfarb <goldfarb@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>>>Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>Historically, [Ganymede] seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter
>>>>for science fiction purposes. Why is that?
>>>
>>>It's the only Galilean one that doesn't end in a vowel?
>>>
>>>Dave "so obviously it's the macho one?" DeLaney
>>
>>Its name derives from the mythological figure from whose Roman
>>name we get the word "catamite". I'll let you decide how macho that is.
>
>Okay, that's now _two_ people who have Gone There, and I've got to ascribe it
>to the mainstream not knowing (or actively avoiding learning) any details of
>the subculture involved, and depending on stereotypes they've heard about. You
>want macho, you don't go to a football game, you go to a leather bar.

I think there is a perception that, while "pitchers" may be macho,
"catchers" are not.
>
>(Plus, I'm fairly sure that the people doing the unconscious analysis of the
>name, in general, would not go that deep submentally AND mostly would not have
>the knowledge handy (more so in recent decades) to make the connection in the
>first place.)
--
"Why do we never get an answer
When we're knocking at the door
With a thousand million questions
About hate and death and war?"
David J. Hayward

On Dec 23, 9:17 am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:

> Okay, that's now _two_ people who have Gone There, and I've got to ascribe it
> to the mainstream not knowing (or actively avoiding learning) any details of
> the subculture involved, and depending on stereotypes they've heard about. You
> want macho, you don't go to a football game, you go to a leather bar.

And what does the myth of Ganymede have to do with leather bars? His
schtick was that he was the pretty one.

In article <slrnfmt4d5.aas.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) said:

> You want macho, you don't go to a football game, you go
> to a leather bar.

If this newsgroup had a quotefile, that'd go in it.

--
William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com>

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:17:17 -0500, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:
>David Goldfarb <goldfarb@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>>>Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Historically, [Ganymede] seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter
>>>>for science fiction purposes. Why is that?
>>>
>>>It's the only Galilean one that doesn't end in a vowel?
>>>
>>>Dave "so obviously it's the macho one?" DeLaney
>>
>>Its name derives from the mythological figure from whose Roman
>>name we get the word "catamite". I'll let you decide how macho that is.
>
>Okay, that's now _two_ people who have Gone There, and I've got to ascribe it
>to the mainstream not knowing (or actively avoiding learning) any details of
>the subculture involved, and depending on stereotypes they've heard about. You
>want macho, you don't go to a football game, you go to a leather bar.

Ganymede, as far as I know, wasn't macho even in that sense -- and frankly
I have *never* heard the leather bar thing being described as 'macho'.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>David Goldfarb <goldfarb@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>>>>Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>Historically, [Ganymede] seems to have been the favorite moon of Jupiter
>>>>>for science fiction purposes. Why is that?
>>>>
>>>>It's the only Galilean one that doesn't end in a vowel?
>>>>
>>>>Dave "so obviously it's the macho one?" DeLaney
>>>
>>>Its name derives from the mythological figure from whose Roman
>>>name we get the word "catamite". I'll let you decide how macho that is.
>>
>>Okay, that's now _two_ people who have Gone There, and I've got to ascribe it
>>to the mainstream not knowing (or actively avoiding learning) any details of
>>the subculture involved, and depending on stereotypes they've heard about. You
>>want macho, you don't go to a football game, you go to a leather bar.
>
>Ganymede, as far as I know, wasn't macho even in that sense --

Right - but to get _that_ far with your thoughts, you have to go deeper into
the analysis than just 'there are four moons here named Callisto Europa Io
Ganymede, which shall I use?', and actually know something about the myths
behind them. At which point you stand some chance of having an Education that
you're using. This is a separate complaint, that the people with that Education
aren't also educated about _other_ things distant from their milieu.

>and frankly
>I have *never* heard the leather bar thing being described as 'macho'.

Heh. Perhaps listening to the actual voices of those involved might dispel
the impression - but it's a place where men are looking for other men on the
basis that they're attracted to masculinity, and though not all of them get
onto that train, many of them ride it out past the stops that straight men
wanting to appear macho get off at. ... hmmm, I think I strained that poor
metaphor, it's making little whining noises. Anyway, it's also not straight-
line-correlated to which position(s) they like to take in bed after the
pairing-off rituals are over with - it's a) just the stereotype that you can
tell "who's the pretty boy with the willowy build? he's the one that's gonna be
the bottom" and b) how much relative macho the various positions involve
anyway.

But I see by the flashing of the little mental light that this has gone too
far into TMI-no-matter-who-it's-from for many people, so I'll stop here.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

On Dec 24, 10:54 am, Jasper Janssen <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote:

> Ganymede, as far as I know, wasn't macho even in that sense -- and frankly
> I have *never* heard the leather bar thing being described as 'macho'.

It's one of the stereotypes--for example the leather guys in Pulp
Fiction were macho. Of course, they were also scary serial killers,
which is often the rest of the stereotype. See Cruising for what may
be the classic expression of this trope.

On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:10:52 -0500, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:
>Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:

>>>Okay, that's now _two_ people who have Gone There, and I've got to ascribe it
>>>to the mainstream not knowing (or actively avoiding learning) any details of
>>>the subculture involved, and depending on stereotypes they've heard about. You
>>>want macho, you don't go to a football game, you go to a leather bar.
>>
>>Ganymede, as far as I know, wasn't macho even in that sense --
>>and frankly
>>I have *never* heard the leather bar thing being described as 'macho'.
>
>Heh. Perhaps listening to the actual voices of those involved might dispel
>the impression - but it's a place where men are looking for other men on the
>basis that they're attracted to masculinity, and though not all of them get

Sure, but 'macho' and 'masculine' seem to me to be related-but-different
concepts. Perhaps exaggeratedly masculine, sure. The description 'macho',
never heard it used in this context. But if I'm interpreting you correctly
it's the word used *by* the subculture? Maybe there's a usage-difference
between the subculture and the world-at-large? Or am I just sheltered?

Jasper

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 01:42:33 +0100, Jasper Janssen
<jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:10:52 -0500, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
>wrote:
>>Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>>>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>
>>>>Okay, that's now _two_ people who have Gone There, and I've got to ascribe it
>>>>to the mainstream not knowing (or actively avoiding learning) any details of
>>>>the subculture involved, and depending on stereotypes they've heard about. You
>>>>want macho, you don't go to a football game, you go to a leather bar.
>>>
>>>Ganymede, as far as I know, wasn't macho even in that sense --
>>>and frankly
>>>I have *never* heard the leather bar thing being described as 'macho'.
>>
>>Heh. Perhaps listening to the actual voices of those involved might dispel
>>the impression - but it's a place where men are looking for other men on the
>>basis that they're attracted to masculinity, and though not all of them get
>
>Sure, but 'macho' and 'masculine' seem to me to be related-but-different
>concepts. Perhaps exaggeratedly masculine, sure.

What else is macho?

The description 'macho',
>never heard it used in this context. But if I'm interpreting you correctly
>it's the word used *by* the subculture? Maybe there's a usage-difference
>between the subculture and the world-at-large? Or am I just sheltered?

You are just sheltered.

>
>Jasper
>

On Dec 19, 4:39 am, ncwa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 19 Dec, 10:17, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> > recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> > theories.  For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
> > theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
> > travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
> > some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
> > beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
> > technology, or things of that nature.  These theories usually further
> > speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
> > teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
> > day.  As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
> > have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space.  You
> > have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".
>
> > I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
> > entertaining.  I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
> > work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".
>
> > If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> > much obliged...

Pohl's _Beyond the Blue Event Horizon_ and by extension, the whole
Heechee seeries. oops, wait, you wanted "good" SF, and IMO, while
_Gateway_ easily qualifies, its sequels do not.


-DES

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:09:17 -0800 (PST), "David E. Siegel"
<siegel@acm.org> wrote:

>Pohl's _Beyond the Blue Event Horizon_ and by extension, the whole
>Heechee seeries. oops, wait, you wanted "good" SF, and IMO, while
>_Gateway_ easily qualifies, its sequels do not.

While _Gateway_ is an excellent novel, its sequels do contain some
good SF as well.

Mike Hamer wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
> theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
> travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
> some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
> beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
> technology, or things of that nature. These theories usually further
> speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
> teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
> day. As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
> have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space. You
> have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".
>
> I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
> entertaining. I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
> work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".
>
> If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> much obliged...
>

I haven't seen anyone mention the most obvious one.
Erick Von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods? The book that started the fad
in the early 70's.
Yes I wasted part of my life by reading it and some others when they
came out. The book and theories and evidence are total crap only taken
seriously by suckers or the gullible. So read it as fiction or its
place in the whole ancient astronauts craze.
Its been discredited by many authorities and critical examination.
Along with the Bermuda Triangle and others.
I even recall seeing some PBS NOVA episodes debunking them.

but ancient astronauts is still a valid SF premise and genre
Personally I prefer the time travellers. Why can't they be from the
future instead of another planet? ;-)

I did like the book about the prophet Ezekiels chariot being a spaceship.
It was an interesting design.


tphile

On Dec 23, 12:17 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> David Goldfarb <goldf...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>
> >Its name derives from the mythological figure from whose Roman
> >name we get the word "catamite".  I'll let you decide how macho that is..
>
> Okay, that's now _two_ people who have Gone There,

I'm not sure you're clear on where 'There' is, in this case.

> and I've got to ascribe it
> to the mainstream not knowing (or actively avoiding learning) any details of
> the subculture involved,

The subculture of cup-bearers to the gods? Or of adolescent sex
partners of adult ancient Greek men? Those would seem to be the
relevant ones, and neither has anything to do with either football
games OR leather bars.

> (Plus, I'm fairly sure that the people doing the unconscious analysis of the
> name, in general, would not go that deep submentally AND mostly would not
> have the knowledge handy (more so in recent decades) to make the
> connection in the first place.)

I can't track the pronouns and indirect references here to figure out
what you're asserting. It sounds like you're interpreting a
recognition of Ganymede's role in the myth as somehow asserting that
all homosexual men are effeminate. I don't see how you get there;
it's like claiming that any allusion to Minerva's mythological
attributes would somehow deny that women can be feminine.

David Tate

On Dec 29, 10:34 pm, tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:

> I haven't seen anyone mention the most obvious one.
> Erick Von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods?  The book that started the fad
> in the early 70's.
> Yes I wasted part of my life by reading it and some others when they
> came out.  The book and theories and evidence are total crap only taken
> seriously by suckers or the gullible.  So read it as fiction or its
> place in the whole ancient astronauts craze.

I stumbled across this book at my local library when I was still a
young lad. All of the science fiction books were on one shelf, and
this was elsewhere. I wondered at the time why it was misfiled.

John Halpenny

On Dec 19, 4:39 am, ncwa...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 19 Dec, 10:17, Mike Hamer <mikeha...@dontreg.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
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> > I realize this may be heading off into "X-Files"-land, but I have
> > recently been doing a lot of reading about "Ancient Astronauts"
> > theories. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, some
> > theorists speculate that space aliens (or other human beings)
> > travelled through space and visited Earth some millennia ago, and had
> > some effect or other upon humanity, possibly inter-breeding with human
> > beings, or teaching humanity about written communication or advanced
> > technology, or things of that nature. These theories usually further
> > speculate that although the "ancient astronaut" origins of these
> > teachings have been forgotten, their effects continue to the present
> > day. As proof, some theorists point to ancient Mayan structures that
> > have no discernible meaning except from the air, or from space. You
> > have probably heard of other findings pointed to as "proof".
>
> > I am deeply skeptical of these theories, but find them very
> > entertaining. I am looking for fictional stories that build on or
> > work with these themes, like the '80s b-movie "Hangar 18".
>
> > If anyone knows of any good SF that deals with these themes, I'd be
> > much obliged...

Ancient shores, Jack McDevitt