A reminder: No use looking at these threads like that. It's the
gullet for you, mister.


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: Turi Meyer

"Smashed" goes a little nuts at the end, perhaps attempting to reflect
the way its three parallel leads do. The whole episode is a little
nuts, an unrelenting stream of Trio hijinx and Amy hijinx (why they
almost never give her this kind of screen time again is beyond me) and
fun little continuity porn mixed with what should be interesting dark
shifts in the direction of the story. Somehow, though, it's always
ended up seeming paradoxically like the Buffyverse's structure is
spinning out of control at the same time as huge amounts of time are
spent on not much happening. The latter is self-explanatory, while
for examples of the former... okay, how about Willow's buy-one-get-one-
free spell which announces louder than ever that she has access to
whatever spell suits the writers' fancy. The sheer level of random
crap thrown into the bar binge at the end plays into that too, and the
way Buffy and Spike get to actually scare up a whole collapsing house
to add cinematic punch to their big sex scene still seems silly.
There're quite a few strong moments in "Smashed," particularly for
those who like Amy's rat-like hyperactivity and very much so for those
who like seeing Spike in the best and worst of times. But it doesn't
hold together as a very solid hour for me. I feel like I may
appreciate the high-ish level of quotables more this time around, at
least, so slightly but not significantly improved the second time.

Meanwhile, in a new development, the episode begins with Buffy
swearing she'd never have anything to do romantically with Spike, and
ends with them together.
Rating: Decent


Season Six, Episode 9: "Wrecked"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: David Solomon

Re-reading the old thread for this one... wow, there're lots of words in
that. "Wrecked" apparently splits the difference between two
unenviable positions. On the one hand, the addiction analogy leads
the play of this particular episode towards very broad and un-subtle,
threatening to drown out everything else. I really like the visuals
during the magic trips, but drug-metaphor imagery is so unrelenting
and so deafening that it's hard for our witch's identity crisis to
breathe. Then on the other hand, it's trying something subtle that
loses a lot of people, with Willow basically ignoring what her love of
controlling dangerous magic is doing to her friends and even her love
life... until it itself becomes a threat to that very sense of control
she's so keen on. Willow becoming addicted to that dark arts feeling
is really the only thing that could finally knock some sense into her
at this point, but it also turns into a facile explanation to avoid
confronting her other issues. Her friends' compassion (a late
development not in the original story outline) is certainly admirable
in its way, but in the end, they all learn the wrong lesson from
"Wrecked," and Willow's desire to fix the world to her liking will
soon emerge again. To me that's a clever and interesting way to build
on the themes introduced in the early seasons and articulated by
"Restless." Of course there are also those who understand it just
fine, but don't think it's a narratively satisfying left turn for the
story to be taking, and/or that it's too unfocused, and/or that it
distracts from what could have been a stronger story based directly
around the themes of abuse of power and trust stemming from the Tara
breakup. To which I respond, well, that's like, your opinion, man. I
also award extra credit for the best use of Dawn in any non-S7
episode... and the last good one for a long time, unfortunately. All in
all, it's a fine episode to be one of the relatively few but self-
assured "defenders" of. (My brother loved Willow's journey this
season, so that brings our numbers up like 10%.)
Rating: Good


Season Six, Episode 10: "Gone"
Writer: David Fury
Director: David Fury

I've heard the theory that "Gone" gets a bad rap in part because of
its timing, as the first episode back from hiatus and the only ep for
another few weeks. Just thought I'd raise the suggestion. Another
part comes from things like syncing Invisible Buffy's dialogue to make
it sound like it's in the same universe as the rest of the episode;
even David has often been critical of the staging and direction of
this one, the first thing he ever shot other than that OMWF featurette
(most of the other first-timers got to cut their teeth on second-unit
scenes in other peoples' episodes). It's seriously never bothered me;
the conversations flow as naturally to me as ever during the euphoric
scene in which Buffy first checks in with her friends at the Magic
Box. It makes me grin, much like Buffy herself is (probably) doing at
getting a chance to let her new short hair down. Even more so than
"Tabula Rasa," which required more magic to make it happen, I find
Buffy's enthusiasm for the potential for fun positively infectious.
All in all, I've never quite understood the hatred for "Gone," which
leads me to rather like it. True, it's weighed down significantly by
some genuinely bad individual scenes towards the beginning
(especially!) and end. But the chance to decide that one would prefer
not to die is a worthwhile step on the recovery road. I still won't
go above Decent, but a fairly fun Decent. It's interesting to note
that in some ways, caring about life again is what leads her to hit a
different kind of rock bottom in the episodes coming up, but a case
can be made that the end of DT is a sign of hope the same way that the
last scene of this is.

Meanwhile, in a new development, the last two episodes both begin with
Buffy swearing she'd never have anything to do romantically with
Spike, and "Gone" proceeds to get them together... and then
experiments with moving things along afterward. Progress and such! I
want to be engaged in the B/S relationship as it exists during the
middle portion of this season, not in the sense of squealing about how
hot it is but in the sense of enjoying poring over the layers of
twisted feelings and history. Unfortunately, I only really notice the
kind of depth I want in OMWF and "Dead Things," and to a much lesser
extent "Gone;" the rest is all endless repetition and underwhelming
monologue-offs.
Rating: Decent


Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.

It would've made my world-view a little tidier if Drew Greenberg had
come across as smug or a jerk in his commentary track. Unfortunately
for tidiness, he seems deeply appreciative of having landed this dream
job, getting to write scripts for a show of which he was such a huge
fan. He generally comes across as a good guy. Too bad about the
whole "mostly sucking as a writer" thing.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone, but I remember that one person
continuously tried to argue that Buffy had "raped" Spike during this
period, ignored any posts saying "um, that word does not mean what you
apparently think it does," and then would repeat the assertion at a
later time. I was way more annoyed by this than it objectively
deserved. Maybe I should consider it just the tiniest of tiny tastes
of what it was like to be a fan back when this stuff first aired.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

In article
<37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
> have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
> of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
> real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
> critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
> be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
> of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
> there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
> copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
> knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
> in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
> a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
> mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
> would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
> seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.

Maybe the BBC didn't dispose of their 'junk' in the Buffyverse.

(Audio tapes do exist for every episode, so maybe that's what Andrew is
referring to, or maybe he saw many of them on PBS when he was a kid.
PBS did show a lot of the episodes that are now lost, long after the
Beeb had destroyed their archival copies, but they didn't hang on to
their own copies because they figured that they could get new ones from
the BBC.)

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

In article <dsample-BD86B1.08583528122007@news.giganews.com>,
Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote:

> In article
> <37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
> > have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
> > of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
> > real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
> > critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
> > be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
> > of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
> > there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
> > copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
> > knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
> > in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
> > a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
> > mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
> > would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
> > seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.
>
> Maybe the BBC didn't dispose of their 'junk' in the Buffyverse.
>
> (Audio tapes do exist for every episode, so maybe that's what Andrew is
> referring to, or maybe he saw many of them on PBS when he was a kid.
> PBS did show a lot of the episodes that are now lost, long after the
> Beeb had destroyed their archival copies, but they didn't hang on to
> their own copies because they figured that they could get new ones from
> the BBC.)

Years ago (about 1993, as I recall) Maryland Public TV found a copy of a
Patrick Troughton that had been lost for many years. It was found in
Hong Kong.

Don Sample wrote:
> In article
> <37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
>> have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
>> of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
>> real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
>> critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
>> be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
>> of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
>> there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
>> copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
>> knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
>> in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
>> a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
>> mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
>> would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
>> seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.
>
> Maybe the BBC didn't dispose of their 'junk' in the Buffyverse.
>
> (Audio tapes do exist for every episode, so maybe that's what Andrew is
> referring to, or maybe he saw many of them on PBS when he was a kid.
> PBS did show a lot of the episodes that are now lost, long after the
> Beeb had destroyed their archival copies, but they didn't hang on to
> their own copies because they figured that they could get new ones from
> the BBC.)
>

Or maybe he has an even geekier dad (much older brother?) with
connections, who bought the episodes on 8mm film...

You know, I don't really know how many were available, but I *do*
remember seeing ads for a couple in the old "Famous Monsters of
Filmland" magazine. There was some rare stuff available then that I
really wish I'd bought.

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

On Dec 28, 8:58 am, Don Sample <dsam...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article
> <37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6...@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>  Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time.  Andrew claims to
> > have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
> > of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
> > real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
> > critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
> > be so, so appalled).  That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
> > of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today.  More importantly,
> > there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
> > copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born.  I doubt the writers
> > knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
> > in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
> > a long time with a bunch of different actors.  The only reason I
> > mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
> > would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
> > seen every *surviving* episode.  Ah, well.

We now have the ability to critique earlier episodes in light of
episodes that may have come later in the series. I would point out in
that in Season 7 we learn of Andrews storytelling tendencies and his
propoensity to just "make stuff up" to fit his needs and convenience.
He also simply liked to talk about random things (Does small pox still
kill people? or I spy with my little eye something that begins with a
"t".) He failed to realize that "Noone cares you little monkey".

On Dec 28, 6:02 pm, Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
> > In article
> > <37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6...@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
> >> have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
> >> of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
> >> real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
> >> critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
> >> be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
> >> of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
> >> there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
> >> copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
> >> knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
> >> in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
> >> a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
> >> mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
> >> would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
> >> seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.
>
> > Maybe the BBC didn't dispose of their 'junk' in the Buffyverse.
>
> > (Audio tapes do exist for every episode, so maybe that's what Andrew is
> > referring to, or maybe he saw many of them on PBS when he was a kid.
> > PBS did show a lot of the episodes that are now lost, long after the
> > Beeb had destroyed their archival copies, but they didn't hang on to
> > their own copies because they figured that they could get new ones from
> > the BBC.)
>
> Or maybe he has an even geekier dad (much older brother?) with
> connections, who bought the episodes on 8mm film...

If I understand the situation correctly (if not, someone can correct),
DW (during the relevant time period) was always recorded on videotape,
not film.

-AOQ

> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Turi Meyer

> whatever spell suits the writers' fancy. The sheer level of random
> crap thrown into the bar binge at the end plays into that too, and the

having more and enjoying less?
amy lets willow have whatever willow wants - unlike tara in similar scene
and willow quickly bores of it

unfortunately willows pride keeps her from examining her feelings

> Meanwhile, in a new development, the episode begins with Buffy
> swearing she'd never have anything to do romantically with Spike, and
> ends with them together.

im not so sure buffy does have anything romantically to do with spike

back when he was making comedies (intentionally)
woody allens characters would remark about having a profound religious experience
sex can be part of relation to enhance the emotional intimacy
it can also be used to avoid emotional intimacy
(as with bethany comparing herself to a hotel room and her spirit the maid)

ultimately buffy realizes spike has nothing inside to connect with spiritually
and that she is just using him to avoid emotional connections

perhaps also its her form of cutting

> Season Six, Episode 10: "Gone"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: David Fury
>
> scenes in other peoples' episodes). It's seriously never bothered me;
> the conversations flow as naturally to me as ever during the euphoric
> scene in which Buffy first checks in with her friends at the Magic
> Box. It makes me grin, much like Buffy herself is (probably) doing at

as spike points out
buffys metaphorical self-abnegation is become literal

she isnt lighthearted
shes dead and thereby released from the rules and constraints of society

> Meanwhile, in a new development, the last two episodes both begin with
> Buffy swearing she'd never have anything to do romantically with
> Spike, and "Gone" proceeds to get them together... and then

i think this the second just out of frame fellatio
with the first with buffybot

they did find a way to depict hard core sex on screen
on prime time tv

> of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
> there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
> copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers

tom baker episodes were the first to be popular in the usa
and andrew might be thinking he was the beginning of the series
not realizing there were three doctors before that

andrew is not the brightest villian to trip over his shoelaces

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> On Dec 28, 6:02 pm, Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Don Sample wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6...@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
>>>> have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
>>>> of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
>>>> real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
>>>> critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
>>>> be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
>>>> of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
>>>> there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
>>>> copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
>>>> knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
>>>> in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
>>>> a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
>>>> mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
>>>> would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
>>>> seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.
>>> Maybe the BBC didn't dispose of their 'junk' in the Buffyverse.
>>> (Audio tapes do exist for every episode, so maybe that's what Andrew is
>>> referring to, or maybe he saw many of them on PBS when he was a kid.
>>> PBS did show a lot of the episodes that are now lost, long after the
>>> Beeb had destroyed their archival copies, but they didn't hang on to
>>> their own copies because they figured that they could get new ones from
>>> the BBC.)
>> Or maybe he has an even geekier dad (much older brother?) with
>> connections, who bought the episodes on 8mm film...
>
> If I understand the situation correctly (if not, someone can correct),
> DW (during the relevant time period) was always recorded on videotape,
> not film.
>
> -AOQ

I *think* that's (mostly) correct, but I know for a fact that 8mm copies
of some episodes (or partials) did exist - beyond the fact that I
remember them being for sale through ads in the back of FMoFL magazine,
you can easily find references to some on-studio 8mm material by
searching - I believe one of the reconstructed episodes was actually
reconstructed using this. And then, there were 16mm film copies made of
some episodes as well, not to mention some off-screen copies. Also note
that this stuff, once it's in the hands of collectors, may never appear
again regardless of any demand for it. One of the films that was
available from FMoFL (or at least, clips from it) was the 1929 silent
serial "Queen of the Northwoods." So far, I've only found one internet
supplier who has it listed in their stock, although there are lots of
references to it. You'd think, with the interest in all things vintage,
that whatever material was available would long ago have been
transferred to digital and be all over the 'net.

Of course, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with my original post, too...

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> On Dec 28, 6:02 pm, Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Don Sample wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6...@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
>>>> have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_
>>>> because of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if
>>>> that's the real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid
>>>> saying anything critical about something "English," because you
>>>> know Spike would just be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite
>>>> hold up - first of all, much of DW isn't available on DVD either,
>>>> even today. More importantly, there are dozens of episodes of
>>>> _Doctor Who_ for which every known copy was destroyed, years
>>>> before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers knew this, which is
>>>> understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who in 2001 was
>>>> basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for a long
>>>> time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I mention
>>>> all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
>>>> would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
>>>> seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.
>>
>>> Maybe the BBC didn't dispose of their 'junk' in the Buffyverse.
>>
>>> (Audio tapes do exist for every episode, so maybe that's what
>>> Andrew is referring to, or maybe he saw many of them on PBS when he
>>> was a kid. PBS did show a lot of the episodes that are now lost,
>>> long after the Beeb had destroyed their archival copies, but they
>>> didn't hang on to their own copies because they figured that they
>>> could get new ones from the BBC.)
>>
>> Or maybe he has an even geekier dad (much older brother?) with
>> connections, who bought the episodes on 8mm film...
>
> If I understand the situation correctly (if not, someone can correct),
> DW (during the relevant time period) was always recorded on videotape,
> not film.

And 405-line videotape at that (at least in the early - black and white -
years.) But to have any hope of overseas sales, it would be converted to
16mm film. Any 8mm copies would be derived from that, or filmed off-air.
--
John Briggs

On Dec 27, 11:42 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder:  No use looking at these threads like that.  It's the
> gullet for you, mister.

> (My brother loved Willow's journey this
season, so that brings our numbers up like 10%.)


Hey AOQ, I'm right there with you and your brother. I truly enjoyed
Willow's arc for the season. (Or to paraphrase Joss...C'mon who
doesn't like Dark Willow?) I guess that brings the number up to maybe
10.1 %.

"mariposas rand mair fheal" <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-C9F6D1.20154428122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> > Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> > Director: Turi Meyer
>
> <snip>
>
> tom baker episodes were the first to be popular in the usa
> and andrew might be thinking he was the beginning of the series
> not realizing there were three doctors before that
>
> andrew is not the brightest villian to trip over his shoelaces
>
Argh! That's just so wrong, under-rating the geek factor of Andrew! Not
knowing that there were other actors playing DW before Tom Baker would be
like saying that Roger Moore played the first James Bond. Andrew would have
none of this second-guessing his ability on trivia.

--
==Harmony Watcher==

In article <m6eej.50888$DP1.5132@pd7urf2no>,
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nobody@nonesuch.com> wrote:

> "mariposas rand mair fheal" <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-C9F6D1.20154428122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > > Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> > > Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> > > Director: Turi Meyer
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > tom baker episodes were the first to be popular in the usa
> > and andrew might be thinking he was the beginning of the series
> > not realizing there were three doctors before that
> >
> > andrew is not the brightest villian to trip over his shoelaces
> >
> Argh! That's just so wrong, under-rating the geek factor of Andrew! Not

andrew isnt a geek
he has delusions of geekiness

andrew is just a shlub


> knowing that there were other actors playing DW before Tom Baker would be
> like saying that Roger Moore played the first James Bond. Andrew would have
> none of this second-guessing his ability on trivia.
>
> --
> ==Harmony Watcher==
>
>

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

On Dec 29 2007, 12:23 pm, Homer Sapiens <ej.spa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey AOQ, I'm right there with you and your brother. I truly enjoyed
> Willow's arc for the season. (Or to paraphrase Joss...C'mon who
> doesn't like Dark Willow?)

And it was a wise choice to hold off. Part of the misdirection and
wrong lessons after "Wrecked" emerged because the writers didn't like
the original plan of having Tara and Warren die at this point in the
season would've been (At a later point she supposedly was also
supposed to get thrown out of the house and grow increasingly
isolated, but Marti and company decided it would make the eventual arc
too obvious, and also that it made more sense character-wise for Buffy
to identify with Wil.) This leads some people to complain that the
middle of the season feels too much like Willow's story is spinning in
its wheels while waiting for the end-of-year arc. I think it's worth
it, because the Dark Willow episodes benefit tremendously from being a
quick burst of magic and evil. I don't know whether or not there's
enough story there to sustain an extended arc, and am happier with
just the three good episodes of all Willow, all the time.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: No use looking at these threads like that. It's the
> gullet for you, mister.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Turi Meyer
>
> "Smashed" goes a little nuts at the end, perhaps attempting to reflect
> the way its three parallel leads do. The whole episode is a little
> nuts, an unrelenting stream of Trio hijinx and Amy hijinx (why they
> almost never give her this kind of screen time again is beyond me) and
> fun little continuity porn mixed with what should be interesting dark
> shifts in the direction of the story. Somehow, though, it's always
> ended up seeming paradoxically like the Buffyverse's structure is
> spinning out of control at the same time as huge amounts of time are
> spent on not much happening. The latter is self-explanatory, while
> for examples of the former... okay, how about Willow's buy-one-get-one-
> free spell which announces louder than ever that she has access to
> whatever spell suits the writers' fancy. The sheer level of random
> crap thrown into the bar binge at the end plays into that too, and the
> way Buffy and Spike get to actually scare up a whole collapsing house
> to add cinematic punch to their big sex scene still seems silly.
> There're quite a few strong moments in "Smashed," particularly for
> those who like Amy's rat-like hyperactivity and very much so for those
> who like seeing Spike in the best and worst of times. But it doesn't
> hold together as a very solid hour for me. I feel like I may
> appreciate the high-ish level of quotables more this time around, at
> least, so slightly but not significantly improved the second time.
>
> Meanwhile, in a new development, the episode begins with Buffy
> swearing she'd never have anything to do romantically with Spike, and
> ends with them together.

I think the contrast is quite well done. We have Buffy trying to retreat
from adulthood with the little girl pigtails (a look emphasised by the scene
where she's jumping up and down to see over the heads of the crowd). But it
can't work for long.

Dramatically there are some advantages to Spike and Buffy having sex,
especially in giving Buffy a guilty secret, and a determination not to go
there again. But the big downside is that it puts the final nail in the
coffin for vampirism as a metaphor for sex. Having the Slayer and the Slayer
Killer have actual sex is a bit like putting "Memento" into time order -
turning something clever into something pretty dull.


> Rating: Decent

Decent for me too. It's my 114th favourite BtVS episode, 16th best in season
6 (last year was 117th and 16th)

> Season Six, Episode 9: "Wrecked"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Re-reading the old thread for this one... wow, there're lots of words in
> that. "Wrecked" apparently splits the difference between two
> unenviable positions. On the one hand, the addiction analogy leads
> the play of this particular episode towards very broad and un-subtle,
> threatening to drown out everything else. I really like the visuals
> during the magic trips, but drug-metaphor imagery is so unrelenting
> and so deafening that it's hard for our witch's identity crisis to
> breathe.

The show could be said to demonstrating some creativity in ways to destroy
metaphor. In Smashed it simply abandons metaphor for reality. Then in
Wrecked it employs a metaphor so laboured as to make me feel embarrassed for
the cast. It's possible that the drug use for magic metaphor was actually
quite clever when it was introduced earlier in the season - but it is
impossible for me to tell that now, because Wrecked runs the idea into the
ground and taints whatever merit there may have been in it when presented
with a degree of subtlety. So, points for an apt title.

> Rating: Good

Weak for me. It is my 135th favourite BtVS episode, 21st best in season 6
(unchanged since 2006 - unsurprisingly, since I didn't watch it this time
around).


> Season Six, Episode 10: "Gone"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: David Fury
>
> I've heard the theory that "Gone" gets a bad rap in part because of
> its timing, as the first episode back from hiatus and the only ep for
> another few weeks. Just thought I'd raise the suggestion.

> Rating: Decent

It's Good for me. My theory on the hatred often directed at it is that it is
one of a group of "fairly funny" episodes that for me are all close to the
Good/Decent divide - IMG, Him, Beer Bad, Reptile Boy - all of which are
widely reviled. It seems that if a BtVS episode steers towards humour, most
BtVS fans will only forgive it if it achieves hilarity. Whimsy or
light-heartedness isn't good enough. But for me, in season 6 in particular,
almost any humour is good humour.

Gone is my 71st favourite BtVS episode, 9th best in season 6 (last year was
76th and 10th).

> Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
> have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
> of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
> real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
> critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
> be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
> of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
> there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
> copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
> knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
> in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
> a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
> mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
> would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
> seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.

Personally, coming from a cultural milieu in which "everyone knows" that
many early Doctor Who episodes are lost, I took it for granted that Andrew
was making a clumsy lie in his attempt to suck up to Spike. A very Andrew
thing to do. And even if that fact about Doctor Who wasn't widely known in
America when this went to air, Andrew strikes me as the kind of guy who
would know.


--
Apteryx

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:00:25 +1300, Apteryx said...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: No use looking at these threads like that. It's the
> > gullet for you, mister.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
> > Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> > Director: Turi Meyer
> >
> Dramatically there are some advantages to Spike and Buffy having sex,
> especially in giving Buffy a guilty secret, and a determination not to go
> there again. But the big downside is that it puts the final nail in the
> coffin for vampirism as a metaphor for sex. Having the Slayer and the Slayer
> Killer have actual sex is a bit like putting "Memento" into time order -
> turning something clever into something pretty dull.

But that first happened in S2 with Angel.

--
Mark Myers
usenet at mcm2007 dot plus dot com
I call that a radical interpretation of the text.

"Mark Myers" <nospam@see.sig> wrote in message
news:MPG.21e6f833a1190408989789@news.altopia.net.. .
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:00:25 +1300, Apteryx said...
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> >A reminder: No use looking at these threads like that. It's the
>> > gullet for you, mister.
>> >
>> >
>> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> > Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
>> > Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>> > Director: Turi Meyer
>> >
>> Dramatically there are some advantages to Spike and Buffy having sex,
>> especially in giving Buffy a guilty secret, and a determination not to go
>> there again. But the big downside is that it puts the final nail in the
>> coffin for vampirism as a metaphor for sex. Having the Slayer and the
>> Slayer
>> Killer have actual sex is a bit like putting "Memento" into time order -
>> turning something clever into something pretty dull.
>
> But that first happened in S2 with Angel.

Angel wasn't a "real" vampire. He was a noble vampire, a vampire with a
soul, on a mission to help the hopeless (how lame is that?). He was
identified as an ally of Buffy and as a love interest before he was outed as
a vampire. Even when Temporarily Evil, he played the role of nasty
ex-boyfriend and part-time super-villain rather than the traditional
vampire's role of sexual threat. And his hair stuck up.

--
Apteryx

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:06:08 +1300, "Apteryx" <apteryx@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>"Mark Myers" <nospam@see.sig> wrote in message
>news:MPG.21e6f833a1190408989789@news.altopia.net.. .
>> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:00:25 +1300, Apteryx said...
>>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>> >A reminder: No use looking at these threads like that. It's the
>>> > gullet for you, mister.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> > Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"
>>> > Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>>> > Director: Turi Meyer
>>> >
>>> Dramatically there are some advantages to Spike and Buffy having sex,
>>> especially in giving Buffy a guilty secret, and a determination not to go
>>> there again. But the big downside is that it puts the final nail in the
>>> coffin for vampirism as a metaphor for sex. Having the Slayer and the
>>> Slayer
>>> Killer have actual sex is a bit like putting "Memento" into time order -
>>> turning something clever into something pretty dull.
>>
>> But that first happened in S2 with Angel.
>
>Angel wasn't a "real" vampire. He was a noble vampire, a vampire with a
>soul, on a mission to help the hopeless (how lame is that?). He was
>identified as an ally of Buffy and as a love interest before he was outed as
>a vampire. Even when Temporarily Evil, he played the role of nasty
>ex-boyfriend and part-time super-villain rather than the traditional
>vampire's role of sexual threat. And his hair stuck up.

And he looked bloody stupid.

--
You've reached the Tittles. We can't come to the phone right now
If you want to leave a message for Christine, Press 1
For Bentley, Press 2
Or to speak to, or worship, Master Tarfall, Underlord of Pain, Press 3

mine, in which
I receive neither evil nor good from men. I try to be just, true, sincere,
and faithful to all men; I have a tender heart for those to whom God has
more closely united me; and whether I am alone, or seen of men, I do all my
actions in the sight of God, who must judge of them, and to whom I have
consecrated them all.

These are my sentiments; and every day of my life I bless my Redeemer, who
has implanted them in me, and who, of a man full of weakness, of miseries,
of lust, of pride, and of ambition, has made a man free from all these evils
by the power of His grace, to which all the glory of it is due, as of myself
I have only misery and error.

551. Dignior plagis quam osculis non timeo quia amo.[94]

552. The Sepulchre of Jesus Christ.--Jesus Christ was dead, but seen on the
Cross. He was dead, and hidden in the Sepulchre.

Jesus Christ was buried by the saints alone.

Jesus Christ wrought no miracle at the Sepulchre.

Only the saints entered it.

It is there, not on the Cross, that Jesus Christ takes a new life.

It is the last mystery of the Passion and the Redemption.

Jesus Christ had nowhere to rest on earth but in the Sepulchre. His enemies
only ceased to persecute Him at the Sepulchre.

553. The Mystery of Jesus.--Jesus suffers in His passions the torments which
men inflict upon Him; but in His agony He suffers the torments which He
inflicts on himself; turbare semetipsum.95 This is a suffering from no
human, but an almighty hand, for He must be almighty to bear it.

Jesus seeks some comfort at least in His three dearest friends, and they are
asleep. He prays them to bear with Him for a little, and they leave Him with
entire indifference, having so little compassion that it could not prevent
their sleeping even for a moment. And thus Jesus was left alone to the wrath
of God.

Jesus is alone on the earth, without any one not only to feel and share His
suffering, but even to know of it; He and Heaven were alone in that
knowledge.

Jesus is

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: No use looking at these threads like that. It's the
> gullet for you, mister.

I think I'm gonna boot.


> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 8: "Smashed"

> "Smashed" goes a little nuts at the end, perhaps attempting to reflect
> the way its three parallel leads do. The whole episode is a little
> nuts, an unrelenting stream of Trio hijinx and Amy hijinx (why they
> almost never give her this kind of screen time again is beyond me) and
> fun little continuity porn mixed with what should be interesting dark
> shifts in the direction of the story. Somehow, though, it's always
> ended up seeming paradoxically like the Buffyverse's structure is
> spinning out of control at the same time as huge amounts of time are
> spent on not much happening. The latter is self-explanatory, while
> for examples of the former... okay, how about Willow's buy-one-get-one-
> free spell which announces louder than ever that she has access to
> whatever spell suits the writers' fancy.

In practical terms, they already did have unlimited access. The difference
is demonstrating that Willow has unlimited access. One mitigating factor to
the scope is that this is a spell Willow knows exists. (Amy has cast it
before.) So Willow's spell can be seen as really revealing something that
already exists as opposed to making something up. A subtle distinction I
know, but it matters to me because it makes it just a little easier for the
spell to serve the other functions of demonstrating both Willow's power and
her short cut mentality.

More broadly I think this is one of the more pivotal episodes of the season,
and is meant to let loose big. Willow fully succumbs to the lure of magic
as pure self indulgence and leaves herself wide open to the unexpected.
(Her attitude reminds me a little of drunken Willow in Something Blue.)
Meanwhile Buffy, in a parallel fall from grace, finds the notion of coming
back wrong the perfect excuse for escaping herself and diving into Spike
sex.

With Willow, they're piling on all her life influences, culminating in a
self indulgent spasm at the Bronze showing how out of control and dangerous
she is both. With Spuffy, they're also drawing on the Angel/Buffy parallel
where sex changes everything and all hell breaks loose.


> The sheer level of random
> crap thrown into the bar binge at the end plays into that too, and the
> way Buffy and Spike get to actually scare up a whole collapsing house
> to add cinematic punch to their big sex scene still seems silly.

There are definitely clunky elements to the episode. I've never cared for
the play of the bar binge. Somehow I expect Willow to have more imagination
than make people wear stupid clothes and fly about. Plus, the music kind of
sucks. I think the collapsing house is great though. There's a myriad of
symbolic usages, but mainly I just like the idea that sex between the two
is earth shaking. (Which I think it has to be to support the ongoing
parallel between Spike and Angel.)


> There're quite a few strong moments in "Smashed," particularly for
> those who like Amy's rat-like hyperactivity

She really is great this episode. The peak of her sporadic BtVS career.


> and very much so for those
> who like seeing Spike in the best and worst of times.

Oh, God yes. It's been way too long since we've really seen the monster in
Spike. The swagger. The ruthlessness. And that trade-mark grin. Letting
that loose in Spike may be the best thing about the episode.


> But it doesn't
> hold together as a very solid hour for me. I feel like I may
> appreciate the high-ish level of quotables more this time around, at
> least, so slightly but not significantly improved the second time.

There's a lot of big stuff this episode. Amy's back. Willow goes wild.
Spike's chip doesn't work on Buffy. Buffy came back wrong. Little fun
stuff too. Andrew going all Mission Impossible. Buffy's mortification that
Spike would call her on the phone like he's her boyfriend or something.
Tara reconnecting with Dawn. And so on.

It really matters too. I love the Buffy/Willow parallel that's pushed very
heavily here through Gone - especially this episode where we see each
yearning to escape themselves and acting recklessly on that desire.

The essential content of the episode deserves an Excellent in my book, but
unfortunately the play of it has problems. A lot of stuff is played out too
long. (I love the Boba Fett idea, but there's way too much of it.) Other
stuff is overdone. And then there's all the time in the Magic Box with not
much of anything happening. It's weird that an episode that's really
overflowing with content so often feels labored. So I can't give it such a
high ranking. But the content still gets me. It remains a solid Good in
the end.


> Meanwhile, in a new development, the episode begins with Buffy
> swearing she'd never have anything to do romantically with Spike, and
> ends with them together.

I talked a lot about that last time and surely could write a few thousand
more words on what that hot and cold relationship means to Spuffy (Spike
sends more mixed messages than he's aware of too) and how silly I think your
criticism is. I'll just quickly reiterate that this version of their
waffling only lasts from the kiss in OMWF until the sex this episode -
slightly more than 2 episodes - and that it's central to their relationship.
(The tension between desire and regret within Buffy continues through most
of the season.) Also, I don't think it's right to conflate the kisses with
this sex as equivalent endings with them together. This is BtVS. Sex is a
big deal - house destroying in this case. Especially between Buffy and a
vampire. It's suppose to mark when everything changes.


> Rating: Decent

Back in the S6D2 discussion you were asking me about the season's threat to
Buffy's identity as oppose to her desire to die. I'm still not sure what
you were getting at, but this seems a good moment to expand on that subject
some.

I don't think that Buffy's identity is actually very threatened. Oh, I
think she thinks so. Plus she's got a problem hanging onto any identity at
all during her disinterest in living. But I think the essential parts of
her will always come forth eventually - and much of this season shows that
happening as she painfully re-acquires meaning to her life.

That doesn't mean, however, that she's on a path to be like she was before.
Part of what's going on is letting go of illusions about herself -
especially the more juvenile ones. (Growing up.) This is a critical moment
in that story, where she is compelled to let go of years of attitude towards
Spike, best expressed in FFL when she says she can never do it with Spike
because he's beneath her. Buffy uses an equivalent expression this episode
when she tells Spike, "You're not a man. You're a thing." But this time
it's said with a desperate anger rather than the cold superiority of FFL.
Soon enough she knows she doesn't have an answer to Spike insisting that
they're equals now, and in a wonderful combination of despair and desire she
succumbs to his charms. (Another reason why the sex is a culmination - it's
the proof that he's good enough for her - no longer beneath her. Or so he
thinks.)

It's here that she essentially gives up on her old identity - so she
thinks - and tries to escape from herself. (This will actually grow for a
while, but this is still the big moment of change.) On the one hand she
despairs at losing herself. On the other she revels in the freedom from
that burden. Coming back wrong is a blessing in a curse.

But something else is happening simultaneously. This goes back to Spike's
words to Buffy in OMWF.

Life's not a song
Life isn't bliss
Life is just this
It's living
You'll get along
The pain that you feel
You only can heal
By living
You have to go one living
So one of us is living.

This is when Buffy starts living again. Not living well, mind you. But
living still. And so, this is also when things start mattering again.
Which will hurt like hell, but still represents the start of her path back
to health. I think this is also what leads her to realize in Gone that she
still wants to live. (Though her feelings about Willow's pain probably help
get her there too.)


> Season Six, Episode 9: "Wrecked"

> Re-reading the old thread for this one... wow, there're lots of words in
> that. "Wrecked" apparently splits the difference between two
> unenviable positions. On the one hand, the addiction analogy leads
> the play of this particular episode towards very broad and un-subtle,
> threatening to drown out everything else. I really like the visuals
> during the magic trips, but drug-metaphor imagery is so unrelenting
> and so deafening that it's hard for our witch's identity crisis to
> breathe. Then on the other hand, it's trying something subtle that
> loses a lot of people, with Willow basically ignoring what her love of
> controlling dangerous magic is doing to her friends and even her love
> life... until it itself becomes a threat to that very sense of control
> she's so keen on. Willow becoming addicted to that dark arts feeling
> is really the only thing that could finally knock some sense into her
> at this point, but it also turns into a facile explanation to avoid
> confronting her other issues. Her friends' compassion (a late
> development not in the original story outline) is certainly admirable
> in its way, but in the end, they all learn the wrong lesson from
> "Wrecked," and Willow's desire to fix the world to her liking will
> soon emerge again.

In the Buffy parallel story, Buffy actually does worse because she can't let
go of the Spike addiction. Of course she hasn't crashed yet like Willow.


> To me that's a clever and interesting way to build
> on the themes introduced in the early seasons and articulated by
> "Restless." Of course there are also those who understand it just
> fine, but don't think it's a narratively satisfying left turn for the
> story to be taking, and/or that it's too unfocused, and/or that it
> distracts from what could have been a stronger story based directly
> around the themes of abuse of power and trust stemming from the Tara
> breakup. To which I respond, well, that's like, your opinion, man. I
> also award extra credit for the best use of Dawn in any non-S7
> episode

Well... best in S6 anyway. I really like much of MT's S5 work.


> ... and the last good one for a long time, unfortunately. All in
> all, it's a fine episode to be one of the relatively few but self-
> assured "defenders" of. (My brother loved Willow's journey this
> season, so that brings our numbers up like 10%.)

I love her journey too - including this episode.


> Rating: Good

I just read my old comments to your first review, and I don't think I can
expand on them at all. I'll only repeat that I have no problem with the
drug analogy in this episode. I know the audience feels blind sided. So
does Willow. That's part of the point. She has reduced magic to self
gratification and has become so reckless in that pursuit that she's left
herself open to the likes of a Rack, who she knows nothing about. We see
all of Willow's weaknesses paraded before us these last two episodes. One
of them is naivety. When you run head down through the woods, you'll run
into something eventually. It could be a bush. Or maybe a tree. Or maybe
off the cliff you didn't imagine could be there. Rack is supposed to be an
unexpected penalty. The expected penalty will come later.

I really dug the tripping this time - and Dawn - and the conversation at the
end between Willow and Buffy. So my rating nudged up to a low Excellent.


> Season Six, Episode 10: "Gone"

> I've heard the theory that "Gone" gets a bad rap in part because of
> its timing, as the first episode back from hiatus and the only ep for
> another few weeks. Just thought I'd raise the suggestion. Another
> part comes from things like syncing Invisible Buffy's dialogue to make
> it sound like it's in the same universe as the rest of the episode;
> even David has often been critical of the staging and direction of
> this one, the first thing he ever shot other than that OMWF featurette
> (most of the other first-timers got to cut their teeth on second-unit
> scenes in other peoples' episodes). It's seriously never bothered me;

<shrug> I don't dislike that exactly, but I'm always conscious of the
acoustical difference in voices and little timing discrepancies. It's
enough to nag a little like an itch. But there's still funny stuff in the
episode.


> the conversations flow as naturally to me as ever during the euphoric
> scene in which Buffy first checks in with her friends at the Magic
> Box. It makes me grin, much like Buffy herself is (probably) doing at
> getting a chance to let her new short hair down. Even more so than
> "Tabula Rasa," which required more magic to make it happen, I find
> Buffy's enthusiasm for the potential for fun positively infectious.
> All in all, I've never quite understood the hatred for "Gone," which
> leads me to rather like it. True, it's weighed down significantly by
> some genuinely bad individual scenes towards the beginning
> (especially!) and end. But the chance to decide that one would prefer
> not to die is a worthwhile step on the recovery road. I still won't
> go above Decent, but a fairly fun Decent. It's interesting to note
> that in some ways, caring about life again is what leads her to hit a
> different kind of rock bottom in the episodes coming up, but a case
> can be made that the end of DT is a sign of hope the same way that the
> last scene of this is.
>
> Meanwhile, in a new development, the last two episodes both begin with
> Buffy swearing she'd never have anything to do romantically with
> Spike, and "Gone" proceeds to get them together... and then
> experiments with moving things along afterward. Progress and such! I
> want to be engaged in the B/S relationship as it exists during the
> middle portion of this season, not in the sense of squealing about how
> hot it is but in the sense of enjoying poring over the layers of
> twisted feelings and history. Unfortunately, I only really notice the
> kind of depth I want in OMWF and "Dead Things," and to a much lesser
> extent "Gone;" the rest is all endless repetition and underwhelming
> monologue-offs.

They don't get domestic until S7. This year we've got the constant tension
between the monster and the human in both of them as they struggle to learn
who they really are - which is neither what they were nor what they
thought/feared/hoped they'd become.

> Rating: Decent

I like the ending of this episode a whole lot as Willow and Buffy find an
unexpected common ground. There's really a nice kind of re-bonding going on
with them. Alas, Buffy's still got a secret and has fallen off her wagon.
So it doesn't go much further. Still, wanting to live is something.


> Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
> have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
> of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
> real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
> critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
> be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
> of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
> there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
> copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
> knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
> in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
> a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
> mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
> would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
> seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.

I confess I've never seen a single episode of either - and really couldn't
follow much of your commentary. Yet I still feel kind of geeky. Maybe I'm
really one of those country geeks a gawking. <shudder>


> It would've made my world-view a little tidier if Drew Greenberg had
> come across as smug or a jerk in his commentary track. Unfortunately
> for tidiness, he seems deeply appreciative of having landed this dream
> job, getting to write scripts for a show of which he was such a huge
> fan. He generally comes across as a good guy. Too bad about the
> whole "mostly sucking as a writer" thing.

Hmmm. That must be one of those jokes I don't get. (Geeks a gawking.)


> Thoughts?

Sorry for being so late with this. Things in RL just refuse to cooperate.
I'm still dedicated to catching up eventually.

OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13otqprcsncc80c@news.supernews.com:

> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:37052a28-8376-4cb4-9012-d3629f4e6bd9@f53g2000hsg.googlegroup
> s.com...
>> Season Six, Episode 9: "Wrecked"
>

>
> I just read my old comments to your first review, and I don't
> think I can expand on them at all. I'll only repeat that I have
> no problem with the drug analogy in this episode. I know the
> audience feels blind sided. So does Willow. That's part of the
> point.

I don't have any particular problems with the drug analogy, here or
later. In part because the analogy isn't (and I don't think is
ever intended to be) exact.

One of the regular posters remarked some years ago about this
plotline that magic wasn't a metaphor for drugs--drugs were a
metaphor for magic. That is, Willow's problems with magic were
being fit into the "drug addiction" pattern by herself (and the
other Scoobies and us) because it was a familiar pattern that fit
SOME of what was going on.

My general view of this plotline is that some forms of magic
(likely including what Rack provides) can probably be reasonably
described as addictive. That it was useful (probably necessary)
for Willow to stop using all magic for a while. But that
eventually she needed to start thinking more deeply about when and
how magic should be used. And that there were hints of all of this
throughout this particular plotline.

Note that in the parallel Willow/Buffy scene near the end, Buffy is
clearly not dealing with the real problem. Perhaps a hint that
Willow isn't either?

Side note on Willow's comment about yak cheese.

There actually is an annual Bra cheese festival. However, it's
named after a town in Piedmont, Italy, not after the undergarment.
Don't know whether the festival features yak cheese.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
news:krudnQIhConbehLanZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@rcn.net...

> One of the regular posters remarked some years ago about this
> plotline that magic wasn't a metaphor for drugs--drugs were a
> metaphor for magic.

I used that argument in the previous AOQ run through. Alas, it seemed to
get burried in debate about how metaphors work. And there also are people
who don't accept the distinction as meaningful. But I'm with you.


> That is, Willow's problems with magic were
> being fit into the "drug addiction" pattern by herself (and the
> other Scoobies and us) because it was a familiar pattern that fit
> SOME of what was going on.
>
> My general view of this plotline is that some forms of magic
> (likely including what Rack provides) can probably be reasonably
> described as addictive. That it was useful (probably necessary)
> for Willow to stop using all magic for a while. But that
> eventually she needed to start thinking more deeply about when and
> how magic should be used. And that there were hints of all of this
> throughout this particular plotline.

I agree. And I must also congratulate AOQ for finding that line first time
through and generally being so sensible about this sensitive subject.
Possibly his finest reviewing hour.

However, I do have one problem with M.E.'s choice here - the aftermath.
Recovering addict is a terrible ongoing story, and even when you finesse
that by making Rack's magic different and showing that Willow's "real"
problem is something else, you still have that forever addicted element in
the character that I think drags it down some. It's not awful and doesn't
hurt the end of S6 at all. But I don't think it works very well either. In
the near term episodes. And a lot of the under current to S7. I can't stop
thinking that getting Willow to move towards a kind of "white" magic is lot
like the wino's solution - switch to beer.

But getting back to your point, I think the really big clue to where things
really are heading is Willow talking about losing herself in the magic.
That will be a huge theme in her season ending flame-out. Which is also
tied into the kind of magic she's using. It's not just Xander that saves
her. It's also the Coven's dose of purer magic that allows her to connect
back to her humanity.


> Note that in the parallel Willow/Buffy scene near the end, Buffy is
> clearly not dealing with the real problem. Perhaps a hint that
> Willow isn't either?

It's funny that you say that. I was thinking of saying something similar,
but left it out for space. But I was coming from the opposite direction. I
was thinking that since Willow isn't dealing with her real problem, maybe
that's a hint that Buffy isn't either. Evidently you think it's clear she's
not - and I suppose it's clear to me that her "addiction" to Spike isn't her
real problem. But what exactly is?

OBS

On Jan 16, 11:44 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:

> One mitigating factor to
> the scope is that this is a spell Willow knows exists. (Amy has cast it
> before.) So Willow's spell can be seen as really revealing something that
> already exists as opposed to making something up. A subtle distinction I
> know, but it matters to me because it makes it just a little easier for the
> spell to serve the other functions of demonstrating both Willow's power and
> her short cut mentality.

Um, okay. I guess that works.

> > There're quite a few strong moments in "Smashed," particularly for
> > those who like Amy's rat-like hyperactivity
>
> She really is great this episode. The peak of her sporadic BtVS career.

I want to like Amy more, but as discussed, there's so little of her in
so little of a coherent pattern. This episode is definitely her peak,
and once again makes me lament that they couldn't find more for Allen
to do.

> The essential content of the episode deserves an Excellent in my book, but
> unfortunately the play of it has problems. A lot of stuff is played out too
> long. (I love the Boba Fett idea, but there's way too much of it.) Other
> stuff is overdone. And then there's all the time in the Magic Box with not
> much of anything happening. It's weird that an episode that's really
> overflowing with content so often feels labored. So I can't give it such a
> high ranking. But the content still gets me.

I may be overdoing all the harping on Mr. Greenberg, but I find that
he's proficient in taking concepts that sound like they should be
great, on paper, and turning them into middling or weak episodes.
("The Killer In Me," anyone?)

> > Meanwhile, in a new development, the episode begins with Buffy
> > swearing she'd never have anything to do romantically with Spike, and
> > ends with them together.
>
> I talked a lot about that last time and surely could write a few thousand
> more words on what that hot and cold relationship means to Spuffy (Spike
> sends more mixed messages than he's aware of too) and how silly I think your
> criticism is. I'll just quickly reiterate that this version of their
> waffling only lasts from the kiss in OMWF until the sex this episode -
> slightly more than 2 episodes - and that it's central to their relationship.
> (The tension between desire and regret within Buffy continues through most
> of the season.) Also, I don't think it's right to conflate the kisses with
> this sex as equivalent endings with them together. This is BtVS. Sex is a
> big deal - house destroying in this case. Especially between Buffy and a
> vampire. It's suppose to mark when everything changes.

Nothing changes, though. Buffy's back to giving pretty much the same
opening speech next week.

> Back in the S6D2 discussion you were asking me about the season's threat to
> Buffy's identity as oppose to her desire to die. I'm still not sure what
> you were getting at, but this seems a good moment to expand on that subject
> some.

I was just musing out loud, really, about when things are worse for
her. On the one hand, OMWF is a low point. That's when she wants to
die; after that, progressively less so. But then "Dead Things" feels
like a sort of rock bottom too. Does being more alive make Spike more
of a threat? Is the level that she cares about the perceived identity
threat ultimately a sign of recovery? That kind of thing.

You seem to come to a similar conclusion to the way I was thinking
about it.

["Wrecked"]
> I really dug the tripping this time - and Dawn - and the conversation at the
> end between Willow and Buffy. So my rating nudged up to a low Excellent.

I think some people have complained about the tripping sequences,
which doesn't make sense to me - maybe floating people isn't their cup
of tea. I would think that no matter how one felt about the plot,
Willow's experiences would be unquestionably audiovisual highlights,
especially the first one.

> > Additional comments on S6D3: Okay, geek-out time. Andrew claims to
> > have seen every episode of _Doctor Who_, but not _Red Dwarf_ because
> > of its lack of a DVD release (although it's not clear if that's the
> > real explanation; maybe he's just trying to avoid saying anything
> > critical about something "English," because you know Spike would just
> > be so, so appalled). That doesn't quite hold up - first of all, much
> > of DW isn't available on DVD either, even today. More importantly,
> > there are dozens of episodes of _Doctor Who_ for which every known
> > copy was destroyed, years before Andrew was born. I doubt the writers
> > knew this, which is understandable - many Americans' knowledge of Who
> > in 2001 was basically that it was a British fantasy show that ran for
> > a long time with a bunch of different actors. The only reason I
> > mention all this is that I think a more accurate version of the joke
> > would've actually been slightly funnier: have Andrew say that he's
> > seen every *surviving* episode. Ah, well.
>
> I confess I've never seen a single episode of either - and really couldn't
> follow much of your commentary. Yet I still feel kind of geeky. Maybe I'm
> really one of those country geeks a gawking.

Again, not surprising to me that the writers wouldn't know this, since
back when I first watched "Smashed," I was basically vaguely aware
that DW existed, and not much else. Many younger Americans are (or
were, before the _Who_ revival) in that boat, including those who
consider themselves serious geeks.

Anyway, short version: The BBC salvaged its old videotape library for
spare tape, back before the idea of TV shows as art that should be
preserved had really caught on. The effect is that the archives of
many black and white shows from the '50s and '60s are now lost in
their entirety. The early years of _Doctor Who_ only survive in a
partial form, and fan recordings are basically the only reason we have
any of it. I think that's all you need to know to understand this
particular discussion.

> Sorry for being so late with this. Things in RL just refuse to cooperate.
> I'm still dedicated to catching up eventually.

Hey, looking forward to it.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:62008914-f17c-447f-b156-ea064e82ebc2@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 16, 11:44 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:

>> > There're quite a few strong moments in "Smashed," particularly for
>> > those who like Amy's rat-like hyperactivity
>>
>> She really is great this episode. The peak of her sporadic BtVS career.
>
> I want to like Amy more, but as discussed, there's so little of her in
> so little of a coherent pattern. This episode is definitely her peak,
> and once again makes me lament that they couldn't find more for Allen
> to do.

Well, think of it this way. She provides an excellent opportunity to
imagine your own story.


>> Back in the S6D2 discussion you were asking me about the season's threat
>> to
>> Buffy's identity as oppose to her desire to die. I'm still not sure what
>> you were getting at, but this seems a good moment to expand on that
>> subject
>> some.
>
> I was just musing out loud, really, about when things are worse for
> her. On the one hand, OMWF is a low point. That's when she wants to
> die; after that, progressively less so. But then "Dead Things" feels
> like a sort of rock bottom too. Does being more alive make Spike more
> of a threat? Is the level that she cares about the perceived identity
> threat ultimately a sign of recovery? That kind of thing.

I think of As You Were as her low point with Spike - when it's gotten really
empty, but, like a run down addict, she can't stop going to him. I think of
Dead Things a little differently. It might even be better to describe that
as her high point with Spike - when for a moment she thinks that maybe she
really can lose herself in Spike.


OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13p0d2sdk3vugf6@news.supernews.com:

> "Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:krudnQIhConbehLanZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@rcn.net...
>

>
>
>> Note that in the parallel Willow/Buffy scene near the end,
>> Buffy is clearly not dealing with the real problem. Perhaps a
>> hint that Willow isn't either?
>
> It's funny that you say that. I was thinking of saying
> something similar, but left it out for space. But I was coming
> from the opposite direction. I was thinking that since Willow
> isn't dealing with her real problem, maybe that's a hint that
> Buffy isn't either. Evidently you think it's clear she's not -
> and I suppose it's clear to me that her "addiction" to Spike
> isn't her real problem. But what exactly is?

Mostly, I think, the serious depression that started late in S5.

Added on to that are all the issues related to growing up and trying
to figure out where she wants her life to go from here.

To a large extent, Spike is a convenient way of avoiding dealing with
all of this.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13p1rf7med6hk40@news.supernews.com:

>
> I think of As You Were as her low point with Spike - when it's
> gotten really empty, but, like a run down addict, she can't stop
> going to him.

I see AYW differently. It isn't any sort of low point, instead it's
almost the final step in her recovery. There's one more
supernaturally influenced bit of backsliding in Normal Again. And
then the crisis at the end of the season that confirms the recovery.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
news:1LCdnSI5btlbqwzanZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@rcn.net...
> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:13p1rf7med6hk40@news.supernews.com:
>
>>
>> I think of As You Were as her low point with Spike - when it's
>> gotten really empty, but, like a run down addict, she can't stop
>> going to him.
>
> I see AYW differently. It isn't any sort of low point, instead it's
> almost the final step in her recovery. There's one more
> supernaturally influenced bit of backsliding in Normal Again. And
> then the crisis at the end of the season that confirms the recovery.

I'm differentiating Spike obsession from her general problem and recovery.
Indeed, I see Spike as a critical aid to her recovery in that it gets her
experiencing life again and re-discovering how things matter. But that's
not just Spike doing that, and the problem with the Spike obsession is just
a subset of the function Spike serves and of her season long problem.
Seeing it as a process of making life matter, the final step isn't until the
last episode when she looks upon Dawn and really sees her growing sister, as
opposed to just her endless job of protecting Dawn. (I know that doesn't
play all that great, but I'm pretty sure the Dawn sequence is intended to be
the culmination of the season's journey for Buffy.)

As for Spike, I don't think she makes the final step until she proves to
herself that she really can resist him in Seeing Red. (Along with
validating her judgment about Spike.)

I do, however, agree that AYW contains the definitive step forward for Buffy
with regard to Spike. It's just that the pattern of this season is to go
with it's darkest just before the dawn. For me AYW contains both the low
point and the dramatic reversal for the Spuffy story. When she goes to
Spike for comfort after seeing Riley, I doubt she ever felt dirtier
(complete with Doublemeat odor) or more despairing with him. And then when
discovered by Riley, never so humiliated and shamed. To me, that's hitting
bottom. Of course that's part of what it takes for her to turn away.
(That's also classic addiction theory. You've got to hit bottom before
recovery. A reminder that Willow's drug analogy is made in part to support
the parallel with Buffy.)

Normal Again works a little like that too for the broader story in that the
worst comes just as Buffy seems closest to recovery.

I've always liked the broad seasonal metaphor of Buffy digging her way out
of her grave. It seems to me to fit the flow of the season because digging
your way out of grave requires pulling dirt down on you to move up. And you
are most thoroughly buried in that dirt just as you're about to break
through to the surface. That moment before escape is also the most likely
moment for giving up.

OBS

On Jan 18, 12:20 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:62008914-f17c-447f-b156-ea064e82ebc2@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> > I was just musing out loud, really, about when things are worse for
> > her. On the one hand, OMWF is a low point. That's when she wants to
> > die; after that, progressively less so. But then "Dead Things" feels
> > like a sort of rock bottom too. Does being more alive make Spike more
> > of a threat? Is the level that she cares about the perceived identity
> > threat ultimately a sign of recovery? That kind of thing.
>
> I think of As You Were as her low point with Spike - when it's gotten really
> empty, but, like a run down addict, she can't stop going to him. I think of
> Dead Things a little differently. It might even be better to describe that
> as her high point with Spike - when for a moment she thinks that maybe she
> really can lose herself in Spike.

Now we're just talking about degrees and semantics, but to me there's
certainly nothing in AYW - either its depiction of degradation or of
progress - that even comes close to the anguish Buffy shows us when
pounding on Spike in DT.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:90551d14-8190-4ae9-a582-1d25cf63a161@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 18, 12:20 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:62008914-f17c-447f-b156-ea064e82ebc2@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>> > I was just musing out loud, really, about when things are worse for
>> > her. On the one hand, OMWF is a low point. That's when she wants to
>> > die; after that, progressively less so. But then "Dead Things" feels
>> > like a sort of rock bottom too. Does being more alive make Spike more
>> > of a threat? Is the level that she cares about the perceived identity
>> > threat ultimately a sign of recovery? That kind of thing.
>>
>> I think of As You Were as her low point with Spike - when it's gotten
>> really
>> empty, but, like a run down addict, she can't stop going to him. I think
>> of
>> Dead Things a little differently. It might even be better to describe
>> that
>> as her high point with Spike - when for a moment she thinks that maybe
>> she
>> really can lose herself in Spike.
>
> Now we're just talking about degrees and semantics, but to me there's
> certainly nothing in AYW - either its depiction of degradation or of
> progress - that even comes close to the anguish Buffy shows us when
> pounding on Spike in DT.

Or her weeping in Tara's arms begging her not to forgive her. (Does that
remind you a little of 5X5 Faith? There's a sisterhood between them even if
they don't really like each other.) I believe I understand you. I'm just
framing peaks and valleys differently. (I think there are multiple peaks
and valleys in the S6 story. Or at least valleys.) Believe me, I do
consider DT as pivotal for Buffy's recovery and her relationship with Spike
both. (DT has both a high and a low for the Spike relationship.) It's just
that post-DT, when the luster (for lack of a better word) is gone from Spike
and her excuse (coming back wrong) is stripped away, she still keeps going
back to Spike for what I consider to be the truly pathetic stage of their
relationship. That's a different valley than DT - and a passionless one -
but not upward movement until Riley knocks some sense into her.

OBS

On Jan 21, 1:12 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:90551d14-8190-4ae9-a582-1d25cf63a161@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jan 18, 12:20 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:62008914-f17c-447f-b156-ea064e82ebc2@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > I was just musing out loud, really, about when things are worse for
> >> > her. On the one hand, OMWF is a low point. That's when she wants to
> >> > die; after that, progressively less so. But then "Dead Things" feels
> >> > like a sort of rock bottom too. Does being more alive make Spike more
> >> > of a threat? Is the level that she cares about the perceived identity
> >> > threat ultimately a sign of recovery? That kind of thing.
>
> >> I think of As You Were as her low point with Spike - when it's gotten
> >> really
> >> empty, but, like a run down addict, she can't stop going to him. I think
> >> of
> >> Dead Things a little differently. It might even be better to describe
> >> that
> >> as her high point with Spike - when for a moment she thinks that maybe
> >> she
> >> really can lose herself in Spike.
>
> > Now we're just talking about degrees and semantics, but to me there's
> > certainly nothing in AYW - either its depiction of degradation or of
> > progress - that even comes close to the anguish Buffy shows us when
> > pounding on Spike in DT.
>
> Or her weeping in Tara's arms begging her not to forgive her. (Does that
> remind you a little of 5X5 Faith? There's a sisterhood between them even if
> they don't really like each other.) I believe I understand you. I'm just
> framing peaks and valleys differently. (I think there are multiple peaks
> and valleys in the S6 story. Or at least valleys.) Believe me, I do
> consider DT as pivotal for Buffy's recovery and her relationship with Spike
> both. (DT has both a high and a low for the Spike relationship.) It's just
> that post-DT, when the luster (for lack of a better word) is gone from Spike
> and her excuse (coming back wrong) is stripped away, she still keeps going
> back to Spike for what I consider to be the truly pathetic stage of their
> relationship. That's a different valley than DT - and a passionless one -
> but not upward movement until Riley knocks some sense into her.

That sort of frames the problem I'm having with this phase of the arc
as a whole (that kinda gets focused onto AYW, which ends up
responsible for ending it). The relationship is pathetic both before
and after "Dead Things," with little difference in depiction. I feel
like it ought to change things, somehow (well, it does eventually, but
not before a few episodes of almost guaranteed anticlimax). One of
the multiple reasons DT is such a great episode is for the way it
captures both the degree to which Spike is in fact getting into her
(insert crude joke here) and the intensity to which she's repulsed by
her situation. Beyond that (and "Gone," which has its own agenda),
it's all degrading and passionless. The lack of luster is part of the
story from the beginning, in fact - there's a reason for the chosen
location for the sex scene in "Doublemeat Palace," for example. (I'm
sure some will argue for passion in her "trying to feel something"
sexual aggressiveness in "Tabula Rasa" and "Smashed," but then, she
does that in AYW too.) So although we all seem to see what "As You
Were" is on paper supposed to accomplish for the series, I'm not
convinced it really does.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:2d5a4556-ebca-444c-b445-52c0d2f4fa65@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 21, 1:12 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:90551d14-8190-4ae9-a582-1d25cf63a161@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jan 18, 12:20 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> >> messagenews:62008914-f17c-447f-b156-ea064e82ebc2@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > I was just musing out loud, really, about when things are worse for
>> >> > her. On the one hand, OMWF is a low point. That's when she wants
>> >> > to
>> >> > die; after that, progressively less so. But then "Dead Things"
>> >> > feels
>> >> > like a sort of rock bottom too. Does being more alive make Spike
>> >> > more
>> >> > of a threat? Is the level that she cares about the perceived
>> >> > identity
>> >> > threat ultimately a sign of recovery? That kind of thing.
>>
>> >> I think of As You Were as her low point with Spike - when it's gotten
>> >> really
>> >> empty, but, like a run down addict, she can't stop going to him. I
>> >> think
>> >> of
>> >> Dead Things a little differently. It might even be better to describe
>> >> that
>> >> as her high point with Spike - when for a moment she thinks that maybe
>> >> she
>> >> really can lose herself in Spike.
>>
>> > Now we're just talking about degrees and semantics, but to me there's
>> > certainly nothing in AYW - either its depiction of degradation or of
>> > progress - that even comes close to the anguish Buffy shows us when
>> > pounding on Spike in DT.
>>
>> Or her weeping in Tara's arms begging her not to forgive her. (Does that
>> remind you a little of 5X5 Faith? There's a sisterhood between them even
>> if
>> they don't really like each other.) I believe I understand you. I'm
>> just
>> framing peaks and valleys differently. (I think there are multiple peaks
>> and valleys in the S6 story. Or at least valleys.) Believe me, I do
>> consider DT as pivotal for Buffy's recovery and her relationship with
>> Spike
>> both. (DT has both a high and a low for the Spike relationship.) It's
>> just
>> that post-DT, when the luster (for lack of a better word) is gone from
>> Spike
>> and her excuse (coming back wrong) is stripped away, she still keeps
>> going
>> back to Spike for what I consider to be the truly pathetic stage of their
>> relationship. That's a different valley than DT - and a passionless
>> one -
>> but not upward movement until Riley knocks some sense into her.
>
> That sort of frames the problem I'm having with this phase of the arc
> as a whole (that kinda gets focused onto AYW, which ends up
> responsible for ending it). The relationship is pathetic both before
> and after "Dead Things," with little difference in depiction. I feel
> like it ought to change things, somehow (well, it does eventually, but
> not before a few episodes of almost guaranteed anticlimax). One of
> the multiple reasons DT is such a great episode is for the way it
> captures both the degree to which Spike is in fact getting into her
> (insert crude joke here) and the intensity to which she's repulsed by
> her situation. Beyond that (and "Gone," which has its own agenda),
> it's all degrading and passionless. The lack of luster is part of the
> story from the beginning, in fact - there's a reason for the chosen
> location for the sex scene in "Doublemeat Palace," for example. (I'm
> sure some will argue for passion in her "trying to feel something"
> sexual aggressiveness in "Tabula Rasa" and "Smashed," but then, she
> does that in AYW too.) So although we all seem to see what "As You
> Were" is on paper supposed to accomplish for the series, I'm not
> convinced it really does.

I have thoughts on all that, but not terribly organized. Let me nibble at
some edges.

Pulling Buffy's life back together isn't synonymous with getting over
Spike - even when steps are made through the Spike connection. Reaffirming
her principles from Ted and Consequences is more about reconnecting to her
life than it is about Spike. It does say something about Spike too as his
soulless limitations are demonstrated and Buffy's sense that he represents
everything she's supposed to be against comes into especially sharp focus.
But that's not the totality of Spike. When Spike mouths Faith's words about
the balance of lives saved being in her favor, it's really easy to see what
a shock that would be to Buffy. But Spike isn't Faith. Even as he
demonstrates his inability to get humanity, he also demonstrates his
devotion to Buffy. It's clear his motivation is to protect her in DT. And
as Buffy beats the crap out of him in her disgust, he accepts it and even
turns from vamp to human face - exactly the opposite of what a vampire
normally does, which kind of belies what she's accusing him of. (Besides,
her rage and disgust is more at herself than at Spike.) It's confusing.
And that confusion is shown in DT too when Buffy breaks down with Tara,
asking why she keeps going to Spike even though she knows he's bad.

There are a whole bunch of complications surrounding Spike and Buffy's
development not covered by DT - or just hinted at. Seeing the evil
bloodsucking fiend doesn't resolve all the ways he's been there for Buffy -
pre-dating the first kiss. There are a ton of little things that have gone
on that aren't degrading at all. The degrading aspect does indeed
demonstrate that Spike can't be what he or she imagined he might be. But
Buffy has really always demonstrated an awareness of that, even if she
pushes it into the background periodically. So he's not everything. He's
still something. I think that goes to the whole mystery of Spike caught in
a neverland between vampire and human.

I think DT is where the issue of trust is overtly raised. But not settled.
That's something addressed more strongly in AYW, and then brought into the
harsh light in Seeing Red. (As much as any single element can be the heart
of this, I think the issue of trust is the one ultimately settled on.)

Stepping a little further back, much of what Buffy is doing this season is
resolving leftover issues from S5. Like letting go of Joyce and letting
Dawn loose from merely being an object to be protected. One big one that
catches everybody by surprise - not least Buffy herself - is finally moving
past Riley. Dealing with her both her guilt and her yearnings. I believe
that AYW reveals how much Spike was standing in for Riley (which also adds
oomph to the notion of using Spike) and how much Buffy was trapped by her
neediness for that kind of devotion. Much has been spoken of how Spike has
looked to Buffy as a role model. Doesn't it also make sense that he would
look to Riley as a role model (subconsciously anyway) too?

There are probably some Angel components too, which I'll leave to your
imagination.

Buffy has also been letting Spike get away with stuff for years now. Long
before this affair she's tolerated and even allied with Spike in spite of
all the crap he pulls off. Channeling Burt for a minute, how can she be a
decent Slayer that way? Even when he's acting good, he's still stealing
from the Magic Box basement and who knows what else. That's something else
that AYW brings into focus and ties into the trust angle.

And then there's the reality that some of this connection isn't going to be
understood by anyone. Not this year anyway. Part is probably just because
of who they are - a natural connection demonstrated all the way back in
Becoming. Some of it is meant to bubble up in S7 I believe. The hint of
possibilities within Spike this year recognized by Buffy then, and
understood by her to be true then when nobody else is able or willing to see
it. S6 rolls into S7 in a number of ways. Part of it is, of course, laying
the groundwork for Spike's redemption. I think another part is laying the
groundwork for Buffy to accept redemption.

Anyway, as far as going ahead with the degradation even when she's aware and
disgusted by it, I think there's unfinished business. Her self abuse over
Riley is a big one. And just generally she doesn't believe she's worth
better yet. Riley will help with both counts. Riley aside, I don't think
she's really getting how much Spike being there for her matters and how much
it still feels like Spike really is all there is. And things she may never
get about her attraction to him, but will get past as she gets stronger in
other ways.

Probably not entirely satisfying, but the season piles all sorts of things
onto Buffy that all have to get filtered through the Spike story too. It's
quite a mess she's wading through. It's not over with AYW either. (Her
jealousy in Entropy for example.) It's not really settled until Seeing Red.
The last influence I'll mention that I think is there is gratitude. Spike
saved her life in OMWF and was the pathway to living again. I don't think
that Buffy consciously recognizes that in S6, though she gets it some in S7
with a little reinforcement. Still it ought to be something that helps draw
her to him.

OBS