I thought I'd share my thoughts on the directions of both.

Buffy Season 8# *SPOILERS*

I'm really enjoying this and kind of think it's a much better version
of Season 4. Buffy Summers is leading an army of Slayers against the
forces of evil spread across the world while hoping that she can
finally bring about the end of all the world's vampires and demons.
Unfortunately, no sooner does she assemble her army than the United
States government and other parties want to shut her down for it. With
no budgetary constraints, what I presume to be the Initiative is much
more powerful and impressive.

It's really like visiting a bunch of Old Friends. They manage to bring
out all the humor and fun from the original series with certain
characters that never got enough attention on the show (Faith, Dawn,
and Robin Wood) all getting nice little bits. Since Anthony Stewart
Head no longer needs to commute from England, we also get to see Giles
used as much as possible. I've missed Giles since Season 5 and am glad
he's back. Plus, you can have such utterly non-Television show moments
like Dawn becoming a 25ft tall 16-year old.

The second Story Arc was focused on Faith, Buffy's former rival, and
we get to see her continue on the road to redemption after all of her
bumpy starts. Faith has been given the unenviable task of taking down
a Duchess' daughter whose inherited the powers of the Slayer but is
utterly evil. Unfortunately, Faith also deals with the fact that
"Gigi" is one of the few people that is genuinely nice to her. While
Buffy is a hero, the fact that the title character of the comic hates
Faith (you know---for attempting to kill her all those times) is
nicely realistic. Faith is trying to do the right thing but Buffy will
never forgive or trust her.

I've heard that Joss is going to be 30-40 issue "Season 8" and bring
it to a direct close, basically keeping the issue format down pat. I
appreciate when authors are straight up about how long it'll take to
actually finish a story arc. It makes me know that he won't drag out a
storyline indefinitely.

The fact that all of this is "canonical" is also a major boon since I
know this is what's happening to the REAL buffy.

Angel: After the Fall *SPOILERS*

I'm less enthused about Angel: The Fall due to the simple fact that it
seems far too removed from the television series to be entirely taken
series. Basically, the bizarre plot seems to be that Los Angeles has
either been totally overrun with demons or has literally been sucked
into Hell. Somehow, this seems to overshadow what happened to
Sunnydale that is a major focus of Season 8.

I'd like to believe that Angel has just been sucked with a lot of
residents of Los Angeles into a "false" version of the city that's
somewhere in Wolfram and Hart's Senior Partner's Home Dimension. That
would make it far more believable and is entirely within the power of
the godlike Demonic entities. My suspension of disbelief being broken
is something that makes After-The-Fall to be very hard to enjoy.

I am pleased by the return of several old friends, however. Charles
Gunn and Wesley Wyndam-Price both died in the Season Finale against
the Demonic Armies of Wolfram and Hart yet the story couldn't continue
without them. I'm pleased that Angel chose one of my solutions for the
storyline by having Wesley show up as a ghost. I was TOTALLY BLOWN
AWAY by what they chose to do to Charles Gunn, however, and rather
saddened by how he manages to *finger quotes* survive *finger quotes*
the final battle.

Honestly, I think the series is going more for shock value than it is
for genuine entertainment. While it's entirely within my belief that
Spike might attempt to set himself up as ruler of Beverly Hills with
an army of bathing beauties around him, it seems to come off as a bit
lurid to be honest. Also, Joss Whedon's comic books along with
television shows are very feminist while the women in this comic seem
to be rather uhh.....well it came off at times like I was reading Sin
City to be frank.

Since there's only two issues, there might be a point to this "Fall of
Human Civilization" style story that I'm missing but right now it just
seems wayyyy too over the top.

One nitpicky difference between Angel and Buffy is the core of Buffy's
Scoobie gang (Xander, Willow and Giles) is pretty much intact. Granted, it's
changed a bit (Anya being dead and, the addition of Dawn), but the core of
the groups has become pretty constant. Something seems to be missing with
Wes and Cordy being dead.
"Willowhugger" <charlie_the_cat_pooka@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e8661510-7e1c-44a7-a248-86241f89685f@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>I thought I'd share my thoughts on the directions of both.
>
> Buffy Season 8# *SPOILERS*
>
> I'm really enjoying this and kind of think it's a much better version
> of Season 4. Buffy Summers is leading an army of Slayers against the
> forces of evil spread across the world while hoping that she can
> finally bring about the end of all the world's vampires and demons.
> Unfortunately, no sooner does she assemble her army than the United
> States government and other parties want to shut her down for it. With
> no budgetary constraints, what I presume to be the Initiative is much
> more powerful and impressive.
>
> It's really like visiting a bunch of Old Friends. They manage to bring
> out all the humor and fun from the original series with certain
> characters that never got enough attention on the show (Faith, Dawn,
> and Robin Wood) all getting nice little bits. Since Anthony Stewart
> Head no longer needs to commute from England, we also get to see Giles
> used as much as possible. I've missed Giles since Season 5 and am glad
> he's back. Plus, you can have such utterly non-Television show moments
> like Dawn becoming a 25ft tall 16-year old.
>
> The second Story Arc was focused on Faith, Buffy's former rival, and
> we get to see her continue on the road to redemption after all of her
> bumpy starts. Faith has been given the unenviable task of taking down
> a Duchess' daughter whose inherited the powers of the Slayer but is
> utterly evil. Unfortunately, Faith also deals with the fact that
> "Gigi" is one of the few people that is genuinely nice to her. While
> Buffy is a hero, the fact that the title character of the comic hates
> Faith (you know---for attempting to kill her all those times) is
> nicely realistic. Faith is trying to do the right thing but Buffy will
> never forgive or trust her.
>
> I've heard that Joss is going to be 30-40 issue "Season 8" and bring
> it to a direct close, basically keeping the issue format down pat. I
> appreciate when authors are straight up about how long it'll take to
> actually finish a story arc. It makes me know that he won't drag out a
> storyline indefinitely.
>
> The fact that all of this is "canonical" is also a major boon since I
> know this is what's happening to the REAL buffy.
>
> Angel: After the Fall *SPOILERS*
>
> I'm less enthused about Angel: The Fall due to the simple fact that it
> seems far too removed from the television series to be entirely taken
> series. Basically, the bizarre plot seems to be that Los Angeles has
> either been totally overrun with demons or has literally been sucked
> into Hell. Somehow, this seems to overshadow what happened to
> Sunnydale that is a major focus of Season 8.
>
> I'd like to believe that Angel has just been sucked with a lot of
> residents of Los Angeles into a "false" version of the city that's
> somewhere in Wolfram and Hart's Senior Partner's Home Dimension. That
> would make it far more believable and is entirely within the power of
> the godlike Demonic entities. My suspension of disbelief being broken
> is something that makes After-The-Fall to be very hard to enjoy.
>
> I am pleased by the return of several old friends, however. Charles
> Gunn and Wesley Wyndam-Price both died in the Season Finale against
> the Demonic Armies of Wolfram and Hart yet the story couldn't continue
> without them. I'm pleased that Angel chose one of my solutions for the
> storyline by having Wesley show up as a ghost. I was TOTALLY BLOWN
> AWAY by what they chose to do to Charles Gunn, however, and rather
> saddened by how he manages to *finger quotes* survive *finger quotes*
> the final battle.
>
> Honestly, I think the series is going more for shock value than it is
> for genuine entertainment. While it's entirely within my belief that
> Spike might attempt to set himself up as ruler of Beverly Hills with
> an army of bathing beauties around him, it seems to come off as a bit
> lurid to be honest. Also, Joss Whedon's comic books along with
> television shows are very feminist while the women in this comic seem
> to be rather uhh.....well it came off at times like I was reading Sin
> City to be frank.
>
> Since there's only two issues, there might be a point to this "Fall of
> Human Civilization" style story that I'm missing but right now it just
> seems wayyyy too over the top.

On Dec 31 2007, 7:20 am, Willowhugger
<charlie_the_cat_po...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I thought I'd share my thoughts on the directions of both.
>
> I've heard that Joss is going to be 30-40 issue "Season 8" and bring
> it to a direct close, basically keeping the issue format down pat. I
> appreciate when authors are straight up about how long it'll take to
> actually finish a story arc. It makes me know that he won't drag out a
> storyline indefinitely.

Um... actually, it's the _Buffy_ comics that keep growing in size.
The original plan was for something like 20 issues, and then it kept
growing, and growing, and whether there'll be a cutoff for "Season
Nine" is anyone's guess. _After The Fall_, on the other hand, seems
to have held fairly steady at a proposed 12 issues, although that's
not final.

> Angel: After the Fall *SPOILERS*
>
> I'm less enthused about Angel: The Fall due to the simple fact that it
> seems far too removed from the television series to be entirely taken
> series.

Both comics have more weird creatures and alien environments than I'm
used to, and that's been an adjustment about equally so in both comics
for me. Having such a high proportion of things take place in a
largely realistic human world filled with humans and things the look
human is something that always helped keep the shows anchored.

> I am pleased by the return of several old friends, however. Charles
> Gunn and Wesley Wyndam-Price both died in the Season Finale against
> the Demonic Armies of Wolfram and Hart yet the story couldn't continue
> without them. I'm pleased that Angel chose one of my solutions for the
> storyline by having Wesley show up as a ghost. I was TOTALLY BLOWN
> AWAY by what they chose to do to Charles Gunn, however, and rather
> saddened by how he manages to *finger quotes* survive *finger quotes*
> the final battle.

After Issue #2, it's hard to disagree too much with those who say that
Gunn is the most exciting part of the ATF comics.

> Honestly, I think the series is going more for shock value than it is
> for genuine entertainment. While it's entirely within my belief that
> Spike might attempt to set himself up as ruler of Beverly Hills with
> an army of bathing beauties around him, it seems to come off as a bit
> lurid to be honest.

That's just a typical Buffyverse reversal, though. Start with this
opulent scene of Spike's paradise, then reveal how miserable he
actually is and more importantly, that he's not really in charge of
anything. The comics can get grandiose and lurid in a way that TV
can't.

> Also, Joss Whedon's comic books along with
> television shows are very feminist while the women in this comic seem
> to be rather uhh.....well it came off at times like I was reading Sin
> City to be frank.

_Angel_ has always been a little more male-dominated than I'd
personally prefer, both on TV and in these comics.

-AOQ

Willowhugger <charlie_the_cat_pooka@yahoo.com> writes:

>I'm really enjoying this and kind of think it's a much better version
>of Season 4.

It is a bit like that - season 4 done right without the problems of
Lindsey Crouse vanishing, Seth Green going off to do films, Marc
Blucas not being as big a hit with the fans as they'd hoped...

Another way of looking at it is: from the middle of season 5 though
season 7, Buffy especially went to a seriously bad place emotionally.
Now she's had a year of relative normality, she's recovering a little
of her old personality - a more mature version, yes, but recognisably
how she used to be. Hence the comments ("complaints") that she's
reverting to her S4 personality.

>Plus, you can have such utterly non-Television show moments
>like Dawn becoming a 25ft tall 16-year old.

She was 16 in season 7. In season 8, she's an 18-year old college
student. (The assumption that at least 18 months have passed between
'Chosen' and 'The Long Way Home' seems to be commonly held).


>I'm less enthused about Angel: The Fall due to the simple fact that it
>seems far too removed from the television series to be entirely taken
>series. Basically, the bizarre plot seems to be that Los Angeles has
>either been totally overrun with demons or has literally been sucked
>into Hell. Somehow, this seems to overshadow what happened to
>Sunnydale that is a major focus of Season 8.

The idea that season 6 of Angel would have been "post-apocalyptic" has
been circulating for years, though - certainly before AtF was ever
conceived of directly.

> Also, Joss Whedon's comic books along with
>television shows are very feminist while the women in this comic seem
>to be rather uhh.....well it came off at times like I was reading Sin
>City to be frank.

Happily, Brian Lynch has acknowledged this as a genuine problem and
promised to do what he can to change it. (Besides, the way the female
characters are drawn is down to the artist, not the writer).

Stephen

On Dec 31 2007, 11:20 pm, Willowhugger
<charlie_the_cat_po...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Angel: After the Fall *SPOILERS*

> I'm less enthused about Angel: The Fall due to the simple fact that it
> seems far too removed from the television series to be entirely taken
> series.

Serious?

> Basically, the bizarre plot seems to be that Los Angeles has
> either been totally overrun with demons or has literally been sucked
> into Hell. Somehow, this seems to overshadow what happened to
> Sunnydale that is a major focus of Season 8.

Yeah, but remembering that this is set at the same time as Season 9 of
Buffy and it isn't such as issue.

===
= DUG.
===

> Happily, Brian Lynch has acknowledged this as a genuine problem and
> promised to do what he can to change it. (Besides, the way the female
> characters are drawn is down to the artist, not the writer).

Really, where'd he acknowledge it?

Willowhugger <charlie_the_cat_pooka@yahoo.com> writes:

>> Happily, Brian Lynch has acknowledged this as a genuine problem and
>> promised to do what he can to change it. (Besides, the way the female
>> characters are drawn is down to the artist, not the writer).
>
>Really, where'd he acknowledge it?

I can't find the original quote - it was probably either on the IDW
forum or Whedonesque - but it was mentioned that he'd asked Urru to
tone things down a little. (Which would take effect from issue #4 or
#5 or so, since the others are already drawn.)

He's also made some sarcastic comments about how people seem to be
obsessed with the boobies and ignoring the actual plot developments,
though...

Stephen

Stephen Tempest <stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk> writes:

> I can't find the original quote -
But now I can! It was on his MySpace page:

begin quote:
I was reading through issue 2 last night, and now I get the comment
about the ample bosom on some of the ladies. Understand that the scene
I was reading took place somewhere wherein that wouldn't be a weird
thing, but your messages and quibbles made something that was going to
happen a little later happen a little sooner, and, as the book goes
on, you'll see a marked difference.

While I would never change story or character arcs depending on reader
reaction, things like that, yeah, there is something we can do.

Also, the talk of the artwork being muddy or hard-to-follow. We're
already on that, and a colorist was chosen for number 2 that lightened
things up a little. It's still Angel, he's still in hell, but I think
we've taken care of that problem too. Issue 2's covers are a marked
improvement over 1, and 3 is a marked improvement over 2. See?
Democracy at work!
- Brian Lynch

Stephen

Duggy <Paul.Duggan@jcu.edu.au> wrote in
news:dd23d91e-e451-45d9-a7f6-e078c160524f@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.c
om:

> On Dec 31 2007, 11:20 pm, Willowhugger
> <charlie_the_cat_po...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Angel: After the Fall *SPOILERS*
>

>
>> Basically, the bizarre plot seems to be that Los Angeles has
>> either been totally overrun with demons or has literally been
>> sucked into Hell. Somehow, this seems to overshadow what
>> happened to Sunnydale that is a major focus of Season 8.
>
> Yeah, but remembering that this is set at the same time as
> Season 9 of Buffy and it isn't such as issue.

Except that the Buffy "S8" comics seem to be taking place AFTER the
Angel "After the Fall" comics.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

> Also, the talk of the artwork being muddy or hard-to-follow. We're
> already on that, and a colorist was chosen for number 2 that lightened
> things up a little. It's still Angel, he's still in hell, but I think
> we've taken care of that problem too.

The artwork of L.A.'s hell looks like a Todd Schorr painting, from the
lowbrow/pop surrealist art movement, except with less color. But I
see that Mr.Lynch's team is working to change that with a new
colorist.

On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:55:27 -0600, Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com>
wrote:

>Duggy <Paul.Duggan@jcu.edu.au> wrote in
>news:dd23d91e-e451-45d9-a7f6-e078c160524f@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.c
>om:
>
>> On Dec 31 2007, 11:20 pm, Willowhugger
>> <charlie_the_cat_po...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Angel: After the Fall *SPOILERS*
>>
>
>>
>>> Basically, the bizarre plot seems to be that Los Angeles has
>>> either been totally overrun with demons or has literally been
>>> sucked into Hell. Somehow, this seems to overshadow what
>>> happened to Sunnydale that is a major focus of Season 8.
>>
>> Yeah, but remembering that this is set at the same time as
>> Season 9 of Buffy and it isn't such as issue.
>
>Except that the Buffy "S8" comics seem to be taking place AFTER the
>Angel "After the Fall" comics.

Buffy Season 8 is clearly meant to take place a significant time after
Season 7...a couple years at least...as for Angel, remember that time
passes differently in hell dimensions...assuming LA eventually
returns, it may not have been gone very long at all.