In the S7 ep "Empty Places", just before they throw Buffy out, Anya tells her, "You really do
think you're better than we are... But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I
mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy... But you
didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve
these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better
than us. It makes you luckier than us."
So was Buffy really "luckier"?
If she had never become the Slayer she would never have left Hemery High and probably would
have been Prom Queen, and Homecoming Queen, Sophomore Class Queen, Junior Class Queen, Senior
Class Queen, etc etc. And most likely would have married the Varsity Football Quarterback right
after graduation. And her parents may not have split up. So just how lucky WAS she?
Of course, the Hellmouth probably would have ended up being ruled by the Master, as it was in
"The Wish", but that's another topic for another day.

--
David
http://geocities.com/daviderl31/buffy.htm
Transcripts - http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/guide.shtml

David E. Milligan wrote:

> So was Buffy really "luckier"?
> If she had never become the Slayer she would never have left Hemery High and probably would
>have been Prom Queen, and Homecoming Queen, Sophomore Class Queen, Junior Class Queen, Senior
>Class Queen, etc etc. And most likely would have married the Varsity Football Quarterback
>
Yes, but then she wouldn't have had a TV series.

On Jan 3, 11:13 am, Paulf Foley <paulfxfo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Yes, but then she wouldn't have had a TV series.

I don't know: "Buffy the Homecoming Queen" could have been successful.

===
= DUG.
===

On Jan 3, 10:57 am, "David E. Milligan" <david...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
> Of course, the Hellmouth probably would have ended up being ruled by the Master, as it was in
> "The Wish", but that's another topic for another day.

It also assumes that whoever else was Slayer wouldn't have stopped The
Master.

===
= DUG.
===

She wasn't luckier, she was more lucky.

"Paulf Foley" <paulfxfoley@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13nodltfj7gt04d@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> David E. Milligan wrote:
>
>> So was Buffy really "luckier"?
>> If she had never become the Slayer she would never have left Hemery High and probably would
>> have been Prom Queen, and Homecoming Queen, Sophomore Class Queen, Junior Class Queen, Senior
>> Class Queen, etc etc. And most likely would have married the Varsity Football Quarterback
> Yes, but then she wouldn't have had a TV series.
>
Buffy 90201?

I always saw Buffy's fate as a Slayer to be a burden to her. She was
portrayed as sacrificing her life and always being alone. I don't know
if I would call that lucky. Remember the origin of the Slayer line.
The shadowmen actually captured the first Slayer, chained her to the
earth and then let a demon spirit rape and violate her shackled body.
I don't know if that is the origin of a "lucky" lineage. Buffy was
only truly free and happy (when the smile started to show) at the end
of S7 as other Slayers were created and she did not have to fight the
fight alone any more.

=
On Jan 2, 7:57 pm, "David E. Milligan" <david...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>     In the S7 ep "Empty  Places", just before they throw Buffy out, Anya tells her, "You really do
> think you're better than we are... But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I
> mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy... But you
> didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve
> these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better
> than us. It makes you luckier than us."
>     So was Buffy really "luckier"?
>     If she had never become the Slayer she would never have left Hemery High and probably would
> have been Prom Queen, and Homecoming Queen, Sophomore Class Queen, Junior Class Queen,  Senior
> Class Queen, etc etc. And most likely would have married the Varsity Football Quarterback right
> after graduation. And her parents may not have split up.      So just how lucky WAS she?
>     Of course, the Hellmouth probably would have ended up being ruled by the Master, as it was in
> "The Wish", but that's another topic for another day.
>
> --
> Davidhttp://geocities.com/daviderl31/buffy.htm
> Transcripts -http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/guide.shtml

In article
<b5e36cf7-1e6a-422b-9d80-01a8c9e8110f@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Homer Sapiens <ej.sparks@gmail.com> wrote:

> I always saw Buffy's fate as a Slayer to be a burden to her. She was
> portrayed as sacrificing her life and always being alone. I don't know
> if I would call that lucky.

Plus it got her killed, twice.

By the time "Empty Places" came around, Buffy had pretty much earned it.

(And re-iterating an important point: Buffy threw herself out of her
house. It wasn't anybody else's idea. She issued an ultimatum: follow
my lead, or I go. They chose not to follow her lead, she left.)

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

"Don Sample" <dsample@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-E84664.11242704012008@news.giganews.com...
> In article
> <b5e36cf7-1e6a-422b-9d80-01a8c9e8110f@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Homer Sapiens <ej.sparks@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I always saw Buffy's fate as a Slayer to be a burden to her. She was
>> portrayed as sacrificing her life and always being alone. I don't know
>> if I would call that lucky.
>
> Plus it got her killed, twice.
>
> By the time "Empty Places" came around, Buffy had pretty much earned it.
>
> (And re-iterating an important point: Buffy threw herself out of her
> house. It wasn't anybody else's idea. She issued an ultimatum: follow
> my lead, or I go. They chose not to follow her lead, she left.)
>

Well, kinda sorta --
BUFFY -- I can't watch you just throw away everything that ... I know I'm right about this. I just
need a little ... I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.
DAWN -- Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together
on this. You can't be a part of it. So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too.

--
David
http://geocities.com/daviderl31/buffy.htm


> --
> Quando omni flunkus moritati
> Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

"David E. Milligan" <davideml@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_pWej.58271$L%6.13527@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
> In the S7 ep "Empty Places", just before they throw Buffy out, Anya
tells her, "You really do
> think you're better than we are... But we don't know. We don't know if
you're actually better. I
> mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean,
that's the legacy... But you
> didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up
to you and say you deserve
> these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that
doesn't make you better
> than us. It makes you luckier than us."
> So was Buffy really "luckier"?
> If she had never become the Slayer she would never have left Hemery
High and probably would
> have been Prom Queen, and Homecoming Queen, Sophomore Class Queen, Junior
Class Queen, Senior
> Class Queen, etc etc. And most likely would have married the Varsity
Football Quarterback right
> after graduation. And her parents may not have split up. So just how
lucky WAS she?
> Of course, the Hellmouth probably would have ended up being ruled by
the Master, as it was in
> "The Wish", but that's another topic for another day.
>
> --
> David
> http://geocities.com/daviderl31/buffy.htm
> Transcripts - http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/guide.shtml
>
>

Anya was being a bitch. She had no business whatsoever criticizing Buffy -
especially considering her past as a Vengence Demon.
What was "handed" to Buffy, as Anya so eloquently stated, was a deeply
heavey burden...one which caused her a great deal of greif and trouble
throughout her life since she became a Slayer.
She had lost her good reputation, having it replaced with one of a
troublemaker.
She fought, patrolled, for coutnless hours each week to protect people from
the threats of Vampires and whatever other monsters came to the Hellmouth.
She has faced death, and in fact even died, twice...and yet kept coming
back, slugging away, never giving up.
So, damnit, she most assuredly WAS better than those young, powerless
Potentials she was charged to protect..the same once who backbited and
murmered and complained about her strategies....and she was a HELL of a lot
better than little Miss Serial Murderess Anyanka.
Anya was a bitch for her little tirade....Dawn acted like a bitch for
telling Buffy to go...and what really took that cake was Rona's bitchy
little comment when Buffy left the house ("Ding Dong, the Witch is DEAD").
Buffy had literally, personally saved Roan's life a couple of months earlier
and THIS is how she treats her? Ungrateful little snot....

> Anya was being a bitch. She had no business whatsoever criticizing Buffy -

the context of the comment was a bunch of weak normal humans
being reluctant to leap into battle death and dismemberment
menanced by ungodly otherworldly foes

buffy and faith had an advantage in that activity at that moment

also there was no particular reason to assume buffy was the best leader
she followed the old pattern that the loudest bellower fights his way to the top
but that doesnt mean good fighting skills are good leadership skills
(see also battle of maldon)

> So, damnit, she most assuredly WAS better than those young, powerless
> Potentials she was charged to protect..the same once who backbited and
> murmered and complained about her strategies....and she was a HELL of a lot
> better than little Miss Serial Murderess Anyanka.

in the end anya a mere weak mortal woman agreed to fight
without the essence of demon giving her strength
just a piece of steel in her hands
and she paid dearly for the decision

> Anya was a bitch for her little tirade....Dawn acted like a bitch for
> telling Buffy to go...and what really took that cake was Rona's bitchy
> little comment when Buffy left the house ("Ding Dong, the Witch is DEAD").

buffy made a mistake
unfortunate but that wasnt what caused the rebellion
it was her insistence on repeating the same mistake the same way

rona already had one broken arm due to buffy
what would happen the next time?

> Buffy had literally, personally saved Roan's life a couple of months earlier
> and THIS is how she treats her? Ungrateful little snot....

suppose a doctor saves your life
does that you obligate you to be her personal slave
and live or die at your doctors command?


all parties handled the situation badly
including st buffy

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

"Joseph S. Powell, III" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:yZ5pj.66$SF5.29@newsfe06.lga...
>
> "David E. Milligan" <davideml@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:_pWej.58271$L%6.13527@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>> In the S7 ep "Empty Places", just before they throw Buffy out, Anya
> tells her, "You really do
>> think you're better than we are... But we don't know. We don't know if
> you're actually better. I
>> mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean,
> that's the legacy... But you
>> didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up
> to you and say you deserve
>> these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that
> doesn't make you better
>> than us. It makes you luckier than us."
>> So was Buffy really "luckier"?
>> If she had never become the Slayer she would never have left Hemery
> High and probably would
>> have been Prom Queen, and Homecoming Queen, Sophomore Class Queen, Junior
> Class Queen, Senior
>> Class Queen, etc etc. And most likely would have married the Varsity
> Football Quarterback right
>> after graduation. And her parents may not have split up. So just how
> lucky WAS she?
>> Of course, the Hellmouth probably would have ended up being ruled by
> the Master, as it was in
>> "The Wish", but that's another topic for another day.
>>
>> --
>> David
>> http://geocities.com/daviderl31/buffy.htm
>> Transcripts - http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/guide.shtml
>>
>>
>
> Anya was being a bitch. She had no business whatsoever criticizing Buffy -
> especially considering her past as a Vengence Demon.
> What was "handed" to Buffy, as Anya so eloquently stated, was a deeply
> heavey burden...one which caused her a great deal of greif and trouble
> throughout her life since she became a Slayer.
> She had lost her good reputation, having it replaced with one of a
> troublemaker.
> She fought, patrolled, for coutnless hours each week to protect people
> from
> the threats of Vampires and whatever other monsters came to the Hellmouth.
> She has faced death, and in fact even died, twice...and yet kept coming
> back, slugging away, never giving up.
> So, damnit, she most assuredly WAS better than those young, powerless
> Potentials she was charged to protect..the same once who backbited and
> murmered and complained about her strategies....and she was a HELL of a
> lot
> better than little Miss Serial Murderess Anyanka.
> Anya was a bitch for her little tirade....Dawn acted like a bitch for
> telling Buffy to go...and what really took that cake was Rona's bitchy
> little comment when Buffy left the house ("Ding Dong, the Witch is DEAD").
> Buffy had literally, personally saved Roan's life a couple of months
> earlier
> and THIS is how she treats her? Ungrateful little snot....

The ultimate point of the season is empowerment - for everybody - and this
incident was a tease at that theme. The problem of the year was that Buffy
held all the power alone, which was shown to be a weakness for the group,
and then solved by broadly sharing it. Anya's gripe is common to many
people in a position where somebody else has power over them. Think about
it for yourself. Do you/would you feel lucky to be relieved of the "burden"
of controlling your own life? Is the one with the power automatically
right? The logic behind calling this a burden is the same European colonial
powers used and was called the white man's burden.

Anya wasn't speaking of "lucky" as peaches 'n' cream good. She was just
pointing out that for no particular reason Buffy got handed the power and
the rest of them were left out.

The philosophical issues run deeper than that, and the arguments aren't all
in favor of Anya's position. But then, bowing to the power isn't the only
option either.

OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in message news:13q9u78roli5m15@news.supernews.com...
> "Joseph S. Powell, III" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:yZ5pj.66$SF5.29@newsfe06.lga...
>>
>> "David E. Milligan" <davideml@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:_pWej.58271$L%6.13527@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>>> In the S7 ep "Empty Places", just before they throw Buffy out, Anya
>> tells her, "You really do
>>> think you're better than we are... But we don't know. We don't know if
>> you're actually better. I
>>> mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean,
>> that's the legacy... But you
>>> didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up
>> to you and say you deserve
>>> these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that
>> doesn't make you better
>>> than us. It makes you luckier than us."
>>> So was Buffy really "luckier"?
>>> If she had never become the Slayer she would never have left Hemery
>> High and probably would
>>> have been Prom Queen, and Homecoming Queen, Sophomore Class Queen, Junior
>> Class Queen, Senior
>>> Class Queen, etc etc. And most likely would have married the Varsity
>> Football Quarterback right
>>> after graduation. And her parents may not have split up. So just how
>> lucky WAS she?
>>> Of course, the Hellmouth probably would have ended up being ruled by
>> the Master, as it was in
>>> "The Wish", but that's another topic for another day.
>>>
>>> --
>>> David
>>> http://geocities.com/daviderl31/buffy.htm
>>> Transcripts - http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/guide.shtml
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Anya was being a bitch. She had no business whatsoever criticizing Buffy -
>> especially considering her past as a Vengence Demon.
>> What was "handed" to Buffy, as Anya so eloquently stated, was a deeply
>> heavey burden...one which caused her a great deal of greif and trouble
>> throughout her life since she became a Slayer.
>> She had lost her good reputation, having it replaced with one of a
>> troublemaker.
>> She fought, patrolled, for coutnless hours each week to protect people from
>> the threats of Vampires and whatever other monsters came to the Hellmouth.
>> She has faced death, and in fact even died, twice...and yet kept coming
>> back, slugging away, never giving up.
>> So, damnit, she most assuredly WAS better than those young, powerless
>> Potentials she was charged to protect..the same once who backbited and
>> murmered and complained about her strategies....and she was a HELL of a lot
>> better than little Miss Serial Murderess Anyanka.
>> Anya was a bitch for her little tirade....Dawn acted like a bitch for
>> telling Buffy to go...and what really took that cake was Rona's bitchy
>> little comment when Buffy left the house ("Ding Dong, the Witch is DEAD").
>> Buffy had literally, personally saved Roan's life a couple of months earlier
>> and THIS is how she treats her? Ungrateful little snot....
>
> The ultimate point of the season is empowerment - for everybody - and this incident was a tease
> at that theme. The problem of the year was that Buffy held all the power alone, which was shown
> to be a weakness for the group, and then solved by broadly sharing it. Anya's gripe is common to
> many people in a position where somebody else has power over them. Think about it for yourself.
> Do you/would you feel lucky to be relieved of the "burden" of controlling your own life? Is the
> one with the power automatically right? The logic behind calling this a burden is the same
> European colonial powers used and was called the white man's burden.
>
> Anya wasn't speaking of "lucky" as peaches 'n' cream good. She was just pointing out that for no
> particular reason Buffy got handed the power and the rest of them were left out.
>
> The philosophical issues run deeper than that, and the arguments aren't all in favor of Anya's
> position. But then, bowing to the power isn't the only option either.
>
> OBS
Just one comment. Anaya said Buffy was just handed the power. But just how much of a crap
shoot is it when a Potential is chosen? Maybe whatever/whoever selects the next Slayer chooses the
most "worthy" -- the one who can do the best job when she is needed, where she is needed (this time
at the Sunnydale Hellmouth, which seems to have become particularly active).
And a question. Had the Master risen, taken over Sunnydale, etc. (Everything in 'The Wish"
happened) would the mayor still have Ascended (most likely to the extreme displeasure of the
Master)?

--
David
http://geocities.com/daviderl31/buffy.htm

"David E. Milligan" <davideml@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:7Ahpj.57446$k27.3876@bignews2.bellsouth.net.. .
>
> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> news:13q9u78roli5m15@news.supernews.com...
>> "Joseph S. Powell, III" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
>> news:yZ5pj.66$SF5.29@newsfe06.lga...
>>>
>>> "David E. Milligan" <davideml@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>> news:_pWej.58271$L%6.13527@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>>>> In the S7 ep "Empty Places", just before they throw Buffy out,
>>>> Anya
>>> tells her, "You really do
>>>> think you're better than we are... But we don't know. We don't know if
>>> you're actually better. I
>>>> mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean,
>>> that's the legacy... But you
>>>> didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come
>>>> up
>>> to you and say you deserve
>>>> these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So
>>>> that
>>> doesn't make you better
>>>> than us. It makes you luckier than us."
>>>> So was Buffy really "luckier"?
>>>> If she had never become the Slayer she would never have left Hemery
>>> High and probably would
>>>> have been Prom Queen, and Homecoming Queen, Sophomore Class Queen,
>>>> Junior
>>> Class Queen, Senior
>>>> Class Queen, etc etc. And most likely would have married the Varsity
>>> Football Quarterback right
>>>> after graduation. And her parents may not have split up. So just
>>>> how
>>> lucky WAS she?
>>>> Of course, the Hellmouth probably would have ended up being ruled
>>>> by
>>> the Master, as it was in
>>>> "The Wish", but that's another topic for another day.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David
>>>> http://geocities.com/daviderl31/buffy.htm
>>>> Transcripts - http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/guide.shtml
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Anya was being a bitch. She had no business whatsoever criticizing
>>> Buffy -
>>> especially considering her past as a Vengence Demon.
>>> What was "handed" to Buffy, as Anya so eloquently stated, was a deeply
>>> heavey burden...one which caused her a great deal of greif and trouble
>>> throughout her life since she became a Slayer.
>>> She had lost her good reputation, having it replaced with one of a
>>> troublemaker.
>>> She fought, patrolled, for coutnless hours each week to protect people
>>> from
>>> the threats of Vampires and whatever other monsters came to the
>>> Hellmouth.
>>> She has faced death, and in fact even died, twice...and yet kept coming
>>> back, slugging away, never giving up.
>>> So, damnit, she most assuredly WAS better than those young, powerless
>>> Potentials she was charged to protect..the same once who backbited and
>>> murmered and complained about her strategies....and she was a HELL of a
>>> lot
>>> better than little Miss Serial Murderess Anyanka.
>>> Anya was a bitch for her little tirade....Dawn acted like a bitch for
>>> telling Buffy to go...and what really took that cake was Rona's bitchy
>>> little comment when Buffy left the house ("Ding Dong, the Witch is
>>> DEAD").
>>> Buffy had literally, personally saved Roan's life a couple of months
>>> earlier
>>> and THIS is how she treats her? Ungrateful little snot....
>>
>> The ultimate point of the season is empowerment - for everybody - and
>> this incident was a tease at that theme. The problem of the year was
>> that Buffy held all the power alone, which was shown to be a weakness for
>> the group, and then solved by broadly sharing it. Anya's gripe is common
>> to many people in a position where somebody else has power over them.
>> Think about it for yourself. Do you/would you feel lucky to be relieved
>> of the "burden" of controlling your own life? Is the one with the power
>> automatically right? The logic behind calling this a burden is the same
>> European colonial powers used and was called the white man's burden.
>>
>> Anya wasn't speaking of "lucky" as peaches 'n' cream good. She was just
>> pointing out that for no particular reason Buffy got handed the power and
>> the rest of them were left out.
>>
>> The philosophical issues run deeper than that, and the arguments aren't
>> all in favor of Anya's position. But then, bowing to the power isn't the
>> only option either.
>>
>> OBS
> Just one comment. Anaya said Buffy was just handed the power. But
> just how much of a crap shoot is it when a Potential is chosen? Maybe
> whatever/whoever selects the next Slayer chooses the most "worthy" -- the
> one who can do the best job when she is needed, where she is needed (this
> time at the Sunnydale Hellmouth, which seems to have become particularly
> active).

Questions like that are why the issue isn't as simple as it not being fair
that only Buffy has the power. But Anya doesn't say that Buffy is a bad
selection. She just asks how someone's supposed to know. It's at least as
speculative to think a Slayer is chosen according to ability as it is to
think it's by chance. Maybe more speculative because it looks random.

Be that as it may, within the specific S7 story we are being shown that all
the power funneled through one person is an impediment to success. Anya's
part I think has less to do with whether her analysis is right, than how it
demonstrates that Buffy's isolation of power creates a gulf between her and
the people she's supposed to be leading. It's hard to lead when your
followers don't trust you. And separation of power breeds mistrust.



> And a question. Had the Master risen, taken over Sunnydale, etc.
> (Everything in 'The Wish" happened) would the mayor still have Ascended
> (most likely to the extreme displeasure of the Master)?

Well, some people think that one of the people shown captured by the Master
was the Mayor. If that's correct, then it seems most likely that there
wouldn't be any ascension. But if that wasn't him - or if he escaped - and
he did ascend, then the issue would be whether there were enough people
around to feed him in those first critical minutes. There might not have
been. The Master's army of vamps would have greatly depleted the local
population, and rounded up all they could of the remainder to support the
Master's mass production scheme. The Mayor might well have withered from
lack of food upon ascension. But if he got through that, then I think the
Master would have to either flee or die.

OBS

> > And a question. Had the Master risen, taken over Sunnydale, etc.
> > (Everything in 'The Wish" happened) would the mayor still have Ascended
> > (most likely to the extreme displeasure of the Master)?
>
> Well, some people think that one of the people shown captured by the Master
> was the Mayor. If that's correct, then it seems most likely that there

in the bronze tied to a pool table is a suit that looks like wilkins
but isnt
its like the girl outside the bronze who looks the faith

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

"Joseph S. Powell, III" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in
news:yZ5pj.66$SF5.29@newsfe06.lga:

>
> "David E. Milligan" <davideml@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:_pWej.58271$L%6.13527@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>> In the S7 ep "Empty Places", just before they throw Buffy out,
>> Anya
> tells her, "You really do
>> think you're better than we are... But we don't know. We don't know
>> if
> you're actually better. I
>> mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean,
> that's the legacy... But you
>> didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come
>> up
> to you and say you deserve
>> these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So
>> that
> doesn't make you better
>> than us. It makes you luckier than us."
>> So was Buffy really "luckier"?


I think that line shows how much Buffy as person, and even Buffyverse as
show itself, had changed over the years.

In the early years nobody would have taken that statement serious, but
then in the early years nobody would have made such a statement at all
because everybody knew how much she suffered.

So did Buffy 'deserve' her Slayer Powers? Well, yes ( -not that she
deserved the suffering-but that happened to all those fighting the good
fight around her as well).
But of all the people that could have gotten the Slayer Power (strength,
enhanced skills, dreams), she had the most talent, creativety and
rightiousness to put them to use to protect the people around her.

And it were these talents and her personality that made her friends
choose/accept her as their leader, not just her Powers as slayer.

However, In the later years, Buffy mistakenly started thinking of these
reasons as one; she was the leader because she was the slayer. Probably
under influence of lines by Faith (S3) and Spike (S4/5/6//7) ('you are
better then them' etc). Maybe finally accepting them when she faced the
Watchers counsil about Glory.
And then she started to (ab?)use her powers to force her decisions on the
people around them, because they could not enforce their opinions without
her help, but she could without them.

And in this area, being the Slayer does indeed made her luckier: she
could afford to make mistakes (and make other people go along with them
against their will) and live where normal people would die.


To name an example: When Giles wanted to revenche Jenny by going after
Angelus, he would have died without her help, but she could stop him.
But when Buffy toke revenche after Riley left, and when Angel went crazy
and fired his crew, they went along with it and lived without needing
other people to save them untill they wanted to.


==================

This is what makes Anya's line so convincing, but is it why Anya said it?

Probably not - it was the season why they had Anya-as-(former)demon
relate to the professional choises Buffy had to make as a Slayer.

So looking at it from Anya's perspective; she was chosen by D'Hoffryn to
be a vengence demon, *after* she had 'proven' herself in his eyes. And
she lost the powers after she failed him.
Also, she knows exactly how importand having powers is in the dangerous
demon world.

For Buffy, there was no test before she got her powers. And there was no-
one to take her powers away if she failed.

Furthermore, from the lines of Anya, D'Hoffryn, Halfreck and others, we
get the view of Anya that she considered it her duty to 'revenche' the
woman that were 'hurt', and that she was only doing her duty without
personal time or playing favorites (after all she accepted that Buffy had
to kill her) - so perhaps she felt that Buffy was being unfair to place
her human friends and the potentials in danger when it was only Buffy's
responsibility duty to face the First.



--

+0==)]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

<MBB>-

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13qbubbac0cbfda@news.supernews.com:

> Be that as it may, within the specific S7 story we are being
> shown that all the power funneled through one person is an
> impediment to success. Anya's part I think has less to do with
> whether her analysis is right, than how it demonstrates that
> Buffy's isolation of power creates a gulf between her and the
> people she's supposed to be leading. It's hard to lead when
> your followers don't trust you. And separation of power breeds
> mistrust.
>

Generally agree with the above analysis. And Buffy's tendency to
periodically isolate herself from her friends does have something to
do with her being the Slayer.

Although I will note that mostly the Scoobies do trust Buffy. And
those occasions when they don't tend to be when Buffy has shown clear
signs that her judgement is off for some reason. This doesn't mean
that Buffy is necessarily wrong on those occasions, just that the
Scoobies generally have reasonable justifications for doubting her.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
news:RO-dnbd7Z9g0xzvanZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:13qbubbac0cbfda@news.supernews.com:
>
>> Be that as it may, within the specific S7 story we are being
>> shown that all the power funneled through one person is an
>> impediment to success. Anya's part I think has less to do with
>> whether her analysis is right, than how it demonstrates that
>> Buffy's isolation of power creates a gulf between her and the
>> people she's supposed to be leading. It's hard to lead when
>> your followers don't trust you. And separation of power breeds
>> mistrust.
>>
>
> Generally agree with the above analysis. And Buffy's tendency to
> periodically isolate herself from her friends does have something to
> do with her being the Slayer.
>
> Although I will note that mostly the Scoobies do trust Buffy. And
> those occasions when they don't tend to be when Buffy has shown clear
> signs that her judgement is off for some reason. This doesn't mean
> that Buffy is necessarily wrong on those occasions, just that the
> Scoobies generally have reasonable justifications for doubting her.

I think that's where the S7 idea gets interesting. They have reasons to
question her judgement in S7 too. In the past the lesson from that is to
trust Buffy anyway. There are signs of something similar at work in S7 -
Spike's redemption, Caleb really is protecting something valuable. Things
that break in favor of Buffy's judgement over the others. (It's not like
their solutions improve matters either.) Indeed, the most frustrating part
of that for me is that the Scoobies don't seem to have learned any of their
past lessons, but I don't need to go into that now.

So, in many ways it's set up to be akin to past conflicts. But there are a
couple big differences. One is that Buffy isn't hiding stuff. She's
actually pretty straight forward with information. Keeping secrets is
replaced with a kind of assumed authority. Without the complications of
secrets, the blame for poor judgement is more readily assigned to Buffy's
hubris. More importantly, even though her judgement might be superior to
that of the Scoobies, she still doesn't have a solution. Specifically she's
stuck at not being strong enough, which leads to the ultimate solution. To
get her (and everyone) to change the paradigm, they have to make the old one
fail.

The neat thing about this is that the means to finding the solution is still
all about Buffy being Buffy - connecting up to her series long story. She
remains uncompromising in principle when she stubbornly refuses the demon
dose from the shamans. Setting aside all the feminist stuff in that
encounter, what's she's doing then is refusing to set herself apart and walk
away from her humanity. They were effectively offering her (-er- trying to
force) an enhanced version of the slayer trap that removes her from her
normal life. And she's not going to do that. What this results in is more
than restating the old problem. It sets up the situation where she finally
has to solve the trap, because rejecting their offer makes being the Slayer
not enough to win. The final step is ending the self isolation and turning
back to those around her - seeing that the necessary power has to be found
in them. So it ends up as the old story of the Slayer with friends - who
just happen to be Slayers too this time.

Anyway, I think Anya's relative distance from Buffy, and her blunt but
incisive nature, allows her to so baldly present the question of imperial
hubris. (Buffy's right because she has the power.) But Anya hasn't been
the only source for that conflict this season. The potentials think that
way. Buffy's been clashing with Xander on a similar vein since Selfless.
Giles really resents it since he's so sure that he knows better himself.
Willow actually has some history clashing with Buffy over who gets to decide
for Willow. Although I think she's swayed in late S7 (along with Dawn) more
by Buffy's seeming certainty that only she can know what to do.

Of course all of that is a little bit of a misdirect. It's not about
quality of judgement. It's about the power.

OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13qd7s5mqf1m991@news.supernews.com:

> "Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:RO-dnbd7Z9g0xzvanZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
>> news:13qbubbac0cbfda@news.supernews.com:
>>
>>> Be that as it may, within the specific S7 story we are being
>>> shown that all the power funneled through one person is an
>>> impediment to success. Anya's part I think has less to do
>>> with whether her analysis is right, than how it demonstrates
>>> that Buffy's isolation of power creates a gulf between her and
>>> the people she's supposed to be leading. It's hard to lead
>>> when your followers don't trust you. And separation of power
>>> breeds mistrust.
>>>
>>
>> Generally agree with the above analysis. And Buffy's tendency
>> to periodically isolate herself from her friends does have
>> something to do with her being the Slayer.
>>
>> Although I will note that mostly the Scoobies do trust Buffy.
>> And those occasions when they don't tend to be when Buffy has
>> shown clear signs that her judgement is off for some reason.
>> This doesn't mean that Buffy is necessarily wrong on those
>> occasions, just that the Scoobies generally have reasonable
>> justifications for doubting her.
>
> I think that's where the S7 idea gets interesting. They have
> reasons to question her judgement in S7 too. In the past the
> lesson from that is to trust Buffy anyway.

It isn't as simple as that. When Buffy's judgement is off, she can
make serious mistakes. And often it takes a blowup with the
Scoobies before she starts to work past whatever is affecting her
judgement.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
news:iNOdndyvnLF7PDranZ2dnUVZ_rSrnZ2d@rcn.net...
> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:13qd7s5mqf1m991@news.supernews.com:
>
>> "Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:RO-dnbd7Z9g0xzvanZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>>> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
>>> news:13qbubbac0cbfda@news.supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> Be that as it may, within the specific S7 story we are being
>>>> shown that all the power funneled through one person is an
>>>> impediment to success. Anya's part I think has less to do
>>>> with whether her analysis is right, than how it demonstrates
>>>> that Buffy's isolation of power creates a gulf between her and
>>>> the people she's supposed to be leading. It's hard to lead
>>>> when your followers don't trust you. And separation of power
>>>> breeds mistrust.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Generally agree with the above analysis. And Buffy's tendency
>>> to periodically isolate herself from her friends does have
>>> something to do with her being the Slayer.
>>>
>>> Although I will note that mostly the Scoobies do trust Buffy.
>>> And those occasions when they don't tend to be when Buffy has
>>> shown clear signs that her judgement is off for some reason.
>>> This doesn't mean that Buffy is necessarily wrong on those
>>> occasions, just that the Scoobies generally have reasonable
>>> justifications for doubting her.
>>
>> I think that's where the S7 idea gets interesting. They have
>> reasons to question her judgement in S7 too. In the past the
>> lesson from that is to trust Buffy anyway.
>
> It isn't as simple as that. When Buffy's judgement is off, she can
> make serious mistakes. And often it takes a blowup with the
> Scoobies before she starts to work past whatever is affecting her
> judgement.
>
But in this case, she WAS right. There WAS a reason Caleb and the Bringers were guarding
the vineyard. And even though they ALL got their asses kicked, that should have told them there HAD
to be something there worth protecting.
"BUFFY -- No, that's just it. We've spent all this time worrying about the seal and the
hellmouth. Why isn't Caleb guarding them? Why doesn't he have someone there protecting it? Why is
he camped out at the vineyard? The bad guys always go where the power is. So if the seal was so
important to Caleb and the First, they would be there right now. They're protecting the vineyard or
something at the vineyard. I say it's their power, and I say it's time we go in and take it away
from them."
Even Faith should have realized that.
"FAITH -- Or, in the alternative, how 'bout...we don't? I mean, it's a neat theory, B, but
I'm not going back in that place, not without proof, and neither should you and neither should
they."
Of course, Buffy proved herself right when she went back by herself and found the scythe
while Faith and the Potentials were getting blown up down in the sewers.

David

> Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
> "Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
> astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
> Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

> Of course, Buffy proved herself right when she went back by herself
> and found the scythe

after buffy was forced to change her tactics
buffy was forced to abandon a massed frontal attack
and instead chose an attack that played to her strength and calebs weakness
thats when she was successful

> while Faith and the Potentials were getting blown up down in the sewers.

Gwendolyn: (smiling maliciously) Faith! A word of advice: you're an
idiot.

faith made a similar mistake
moving most of her force in a confined space without a clear line of retreat
and without sending out a sufficient point

the others being wrong about the importance of the winery
doesnt mean buffy was right to attack it en masse

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
news:iNOdndyvnLF7PDranZ2dnUVZ_rSrnZ2d@rcn.net...
> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:13qd7s5mqf1m991@news.supernews.com:
>
>> "Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:RO-dnbd7Z9g0xzvanZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>>> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
>>> news:13qbubbac0cbfda@news.supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> Be that as it may, within the specific S7 story we are being
>>>> shown that all the power funneled through one person is an
>>>> impediment to success. Anya's part I think has less to do
>>>> with whether her analysis is right, than how it demonstrates
>>>> that Buffy's isolation of power creates a gulf between her and
>>>> the people she's supposed to be leading. It's hard to lead
>>>> when your followers don't trust you. And separation of power
>>>> breeds mistrust.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Generally agree with the above analysis. And Buffy's tendency
>>> to periodically isolate herself from her friends does have
>>> something to do with her being the Slayer.
>>>
>>> Although I will note that mostly the Scoobies do trust Buffy.
>>> And those occasions when they don't tend to be when Buffy has
>>> shown clear signs that her judgement is off for some reason.
>>> This doesn't mean that Buffy is necessarily wrong on those
>>> occasions, just that the Scoobies generally have reasonable
>>> justifications for doubting her.
>>
>> I think that's where the S7 idea gets interesting. They have
>> reasons to question her judgement in S7 too. In the past the
>> lesson from that is to trust Buffy anyway.
>
> It isn't as simple as that. When Buffy's judgement is off, she can
> make serious mistakes. And often it takes a blowup with the
> Scoobies before she starts to work past whatever is affecting her
> judgement.

LOL I *know* I don't want to debate that now. I gave a decidedly short
story for the past incidents because I think the S7 point is that this time
it plays out differently in spite of strong similarities. For example, Lies
My Parents Told Me is constructed to roughly parallel S3's Revelations -
with Giles taking over Xander's role. Irrespective of where fault really
lies in Revelations, the resolution is to re-affirm trust between Xander and
Buffy. Exactly the opposite happens between Giles and Buffy in S7.

OBS

"David E. Milligan" <davideml@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:S4Ppj.68979$_m.5100@bignews4.bellsouth.net:

>
> "Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:iNOdndyvnLF7PDranZ2dnUVZ_rSrnZ2d@rcn.net...
>> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
>> news:13qd7s5mqf1m991@news.supernews.com:
>>
>>> "Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
>>> news:RO-dnbd7Z9g0xzvanZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>>>> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
>>>> news:13qbubbac0cbfda@news.supernews.com:
>>>>
>>>>> Be that as it may, within the specific S7 story we are being
>>>>> shown that all the power funneled through one person is an
>>>>> impediment to success. Anya's part I think has less to do
>>>>> with whether her analysis is right, than how it demonstrates
>>>>> that Buffy's isolation of power creates a gulf between her
>>>>> and the people she's supposed to be leading. It's hard to
>>>>> lead when your followers don't trust you. And separation of
>>>>> power breeds mistrust.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Generally agree with the above analysis. And Buffy's
>>>> tendency to periodically isolate herself from her friends
>>>> does have something to do with her being the Slayer.
>>>>
>>>> Although I will note that mostly the Scoobies do trust Buffy.
>>>> And those occasions when they don't tend to be when Buffy has
>>>> shown clear signs that her judgement is off for some reason.
>>>> This doesn't mean that Buffy is necessarily wrong on those
>>>> occasions, just that the Scoobies generally have reasonable
>>>> justifications for doubting her.
>>>
>>> I think that's where the S7 idea gets interesting. They have
>>> reasons to question her judgement in S7 too. In the past the
>>> lesson from that is to trust Buffy anyway.
>>
>> It isn't as simple as that. When Buffy's judgement is off, she
>> can make serious mistakes. And often it takes a blowup with
>> the Scoobies before she starts to work past whatever is
>> affecting her judgement.
>>
> But in this case, she WAS right. There WAS a reason
> Caleb and the Bringers were guarding
> the vineyard. And even though they ALL got their asses kicked,
> that should have told them there HAD to be something there worth
> protecting.

No it shouldn't. From what they know at the time, the vineyard
could just have been in a convenient location. Or the first empty
building of about the right size that Caleb found. Or the First
simply liked abandoned vineyards. Or Caleb did. Or any number of
other reasons that had nothing to do with anything particularly
important being there. At the time the argument takes place, Buffy
doesn't really have any evidence other than her intuition for
expecting there to be anything especially valuable there. And
while her intuition is usually good, it's far from infallible.
Especially when her judgement is off.

Then there's the problem that another mass assault (which is
clearly what Buffy had in mind) is likely to have roughly the same
result as the first one (if not worse).

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"Joseph S. Powell, III" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in
news:yZ5pj.66$SF5.29@newsfe06.lga:

>
> "David E. Milligan" <davideml@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:_pWej.58271$L%6.13527@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>> In the S7 ep "Empty Places", just before they throw Buffy out,
>> Anya
> tells her, "You really do
>> think you're better than we are... But we don't know. We don't know
>> if
> you're actually better. I
>> mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean,
> that's the legacy... But you
>> didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come
>> up
> to you and say you deserve
>> these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So
>> that
> doesn't make you better
>> than us. It makes you luckier than us."
>> So was Buffy really "luckier"?


I think that line shows how much Buffy as person, and even Buffyverse as
show itself, had changed over the years.

In the early years nobody would have taken that statement serious, but then
in the early years nobody would have made such a statement at all because
everybody knew how much she suffered.

So did Buffy 'deserve' her Slayer Powers? Well, yes ( -not that she
deserved the suffering-but that happened to all those fighting the good
fight around her as well).
But of all the people that could have gotten the Slayer Power (strength,
enhanced skills, dreams), she had the most talent, creativety and
rightiousness to put them to use to protect the people around her.

And it were these talents and her personality that made her friends
choose/accept her as their leader, not just her Powers as slayer.

However, In the later years, Buffy mistakenly started thinking of these
reasons as one; she was the leader because she was the slayer. Probably
under influence of lines by Faith (S3) and Spike (S4/5/6//7) ('you are
better then them' etc). Maybe finally accepting them when she faced the
Watchers counsil about Glory.
And then she started to (ab?)use her powers to force her decisions on the
people around them, because they could not enforce their opinions without
her help, but she could without them.

And in this area, being the Slayer does indeed made her luckier: she could
afford to make mistakes (and make other people go along with them against
their will) and live where normal people would die.


To name an example: When Giles wanted to revenche Jenny by going after
Angelus, he would have died without her help, but she could stop him.
But when Buffy toke revenche after Riley left, and when Angel went crazy
and fired his crew, they went along with it and lived without needing other
people to save them untill they wanted to.


==================

This is what makes Anya's line so convincing, but is it why Anya said it?

Probably not - it was the season why they had Anya-as-(former)demon relate
to the professional choises Buffy had to make as a Slayer.

So looking at it from Anya's perspective; she was chosen by D'Hoffryn to be
a vengence demon, *after* she had 'proven' herself in his eyes. And she
lost the powers after she failed him.
Also, she knows exactly how importand having powers is in the dangerous
demon world.

For Buffy, there was no test before she got her powers. And there was no-
one to take her powers away if she failed.

Furthermore, from the lines of Anya, D'Hoffryn, Halfreck and others, we get
the view of Anya that she considered it her duty to 'revenche' the woman
that were 'hurt', and that she was only doing her duty without personal
time or playing favorites (after all she accepted that Buffy had to kill
her) - so perhaps she felt that Buffy was being unfair to place her human
friends and the potentials in danger when it was only Buffy's
responsibility duty to face the First.



--

+0==)]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

<MBB>-