Who brought the sandworms to Dune originally? Speculations?

Tony wrote:
> Who brought the sandworms to Dune originally? Speculations?

Donald Trump? When the Celebrity Version of The Apprentice finally was
canceled, he hoped to start a new show about his "Big Worm". A rip in
the time/space continuum and the rest is, as they say, History.

WM

>
>

Wild Monkshood wrote:

>
>
> Tony wrote:
>
>> Who brought the sandworms to Dune originally? Speculations?
>
>
> Donald Trump? When the Celebrity Version of The Apprentice finally
> was canceled, he hoped to start a new show about his "Big Worm". A rip
> in the time/space continuum and the rest is, as they say, History.

Actually, I need to go back and read about Leto II's vision and see if
terraforming was specifically mentioned. Is his vision around the same
time as he reveals Jessica's mothers name as Tanida Nerus (sp?)?

WM

>
> WM
>
>>
>>

On Jan 31, 8:31 am, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Who brought the sandworms to Dune originally?  Speculations?

The Muadru...whom Frank Herbert never mentioned once in six books even
though their artefacts were found on multiple worlds scattered
throughout the Imperium!

;D

Seriously, I think it had to have been the pre-Jihad Ancients. Because
there are no (known) aliens in the Duniverse. In the Torkos timeline
on the Dune Novels website, the very first entry is

??? (=year)

Sandtrout are brought to Arrakis from an unknown place. Sandtrout
begin desertification of the originally water-rich Arrakis and later
start the sandtrout-sandworm-melange cycle. [Children of Dune]

Followed immediately by:

appr. 1200 B.C.

Birth of Agamemnon, son of Atreus. The future Atreides family
descending from Andrew Skouros claims to trace their lineage this far
back.

Obviously, Torkos is taking his lead from the new hackery (and, I
suspect, received info from Kevin and Brian for use in preparing the
timeline. I guess it's also possible that parts of it were edited
after they received it from him), but that Bronze Age date is simply
unsupportable. Unless they're planning on going down some Battlestar
Galactica-type line of silliness. (Not that I don't like the
reimagined BG, mind you. But it has no place in Dune.) That leaves
only aliens.

Leto's apparent OM recollection of having witnessed the event comes
about 1000 lines earlier in (my) CoD (file) than the Tanidia Nerus
ref. There's no specific mention of "terraforming" (was the term even
used yet, back then? FH used "terraform" as an adjective, meaning
"like that of/from Earth": "terraform life"):

"The sandtrout," he repeated, "was introduced here from some other
place. This was a wet planet then. They proliferated beyond the
capability of existing ecosystems to deal with them. Sandtrout
encysted the available free water, made this a desert planet...and
they did it to survive. In a planet sufficiently dry, they could move
to their sandworm phase."

FWIW. :)

And...wouldn't the proper term be "areoforming", since the planet was
made more Mars-like than Earth-like?

:p

"SandChigger" <sandchigger@mac.com> wrote in message
news:e531e0f8-3826-4cbb-b52a-d4882bbe5648@n22g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 31, 8:31 am, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Who brought the sandworms to Dune originally? Speculations?

The Muadru...whom Frank Herbert never mentioned once in six books even
though their artefacts were found on multiple worlds scattered
throughout the Imperium!

> Interesting!

;D

Seriously, I think it had to have been the pre-Jihad Ancients. Because
there are no (known) aliens in the Duniverse. In the Torkos timeline
on the Dune Novels website, the very first entry is

??? (=year)

Sandtrout are brought to Arrakis from an unknown place. Sandtrout
begin desertification of the originally water-rich Arrakis and later
start the sandtrout-sandworm-melange cycle. [Children of Dune]

Followed immediately by:

appr. 1200 B.C.

Birth of Agamemnon, son of Atreus. The future Atreides family
descending from Andrew Skouros claims to trace their lineage this far
back.

Obviously, Torkos is taking his lead from the new hackery (and, I
suspect, received info from Kevin and Brian for use in preparing the
timeline. I guess it's also possible that parts of it were edited
after they received it from him), but that Bronze Age date is simply
unsupportable. Unless they're planning on going down some Battlestar
Galactica-type line of silliness. (Not that I don't like the
reimagined BG, mind you. But it has no place in Dune.) That leaves
only aliens.

> It could be aliens transporting sandtrout to Arrakis during Earth's
> Bronze Age, couldn't it?

Leto's apparent OM recollection of having witnessed the event comes
about 1000 lines earlier in (my) CoD (file) than the Tanidia Nerus
ref. There's no specific mention of "terraforming" (was the term even
used yet, back then? FH used "terraform" as an adjective, meaning
"like that of/from Earth": "terraform life"):

"The sandtrout," he repeated, "was introduced here from some other
place. This was a wet planet then. They proliferated beyond the
capability of existing ecosystems to deal with them. Sandtrout
encysted the available free water, made this a desert planet...and
they did it to survive. In a planet sufficiently dry, they could move
to their sandworm phase."

FWIW. :)

> I often wondered if there was intelligent life on Arrakis before the
> sandworm arrived. In that case the sandtrout would act as a type of
> planet destroying weapon, perhaps genetically engineered for that purpose.

On Feb 1, 7:46 am, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I often wondered if there was intelligent life on Arrakis before the
> sandworm arrived.  In that case the sandtrout would act as a type of
> planet destroying weapon, perhaps genetically engineered for that purpose.

We know a lot more about Canopus than we did when Frank Herbert wrote
the first three books. It's not certain, for example, whether such a
massive star would form a normal planetary system, but it's thought
that it will have a very short lifetime, measured only in hundreds of
millions of years, as opposed to the billions for a star the size of
the Sun.

Because of the short stellar lifetime, it is very unlikely that life
would arise on any planets before the star goes nova. (It's thought it
took about 800 million years for the first life to appear on Earth,
for example.) And even if it did, it wouldn't have enough time to
evolve into something intelligent.

An example of Frank Herbert lucking out in his vision. :)

"SandChigger" <sandchigger@mac.com> wrote

We know a lot more about Canopus than we did when Frank Herbert wrote
the first three books. It's not certain, for example, whether such a
massive star would form a normal planetary system, but it's thought
that it will have a very short lifetime, measured only in hundreds of
millions of years, as opposed to the billions for a star the size of
the Sun.

Because of the short stellar lifetime, it is very unlikely that life
would arise on any planets before the star goes nova. (It's thought it
took about 800 million years for the first life to appear on Earth,
for example.) And even if it did, it wouldn't have enough time to
evolve into something intelligent.

Tony wrote:

Yes, excellent point. I don't think FH intended that Arrakis was inhabited
before the arrival of the sandworms. But I wonder if the aliens we're
considering could have been so evolved that they would have appeared to be
gods to the ancient Greeks such as Agamemnon.

On Feb 2, 8:09 am, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, excellent point.  I don't think FH intended that Arrakis was inhabited
> before the arrival of the sandworms.  But I wonder if the aliens we're
> considering could have been so evolved that they would have appeared to be
> gods to the ancient Greeks such as Agamemnon.

Sorry, just to be clear: I'm not considering any aliens. Was just
saying that if that pre-1200 BC date were correct, it would have had
to have been aliens.

But in that case, Leto could not possibly have any recollection of the
event (since at present there is nothing to indicate that the Ateides
have any alien blood, no? Give Kevin time, though). Again, to me this
indicates human agency. That leaves only some forgotten pre-Jihad
group. (The destruction of the computers and AI would have meant the
destruction of all their stored data. In a way Duniverse humanity
chose to lobotomize itself [temporarily] in order to survive.)

I'm sure we haven't heard the last of the Muadru or this question from
The Hacks Twain.

SandChigger wrote:

> On Feb 2, 8:09 am, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Yes, excellent point. I don't think FH intended that Arrakis was inhabited
>>before the arrival of the sandworms. But I wonder if the aliens we're
>>considering could have been so evolved that they would have appeared to be
>>gods to the ancient Greeks such as Agamemnon.
>
>
> Sorry, just to be clear: I'm not considering any aliens. Was just
> saying that if that pre-1200 BC date were correct, it would have had
> to have been aliens.
>
> But in that case, Leto could not possibly have any recollection of the
> event (since at present there is nothing to indicate that the Ateides
> have any alien blood, no?

If it were an Oracle vision, he would not need to have a famlial
/bloodline connection. The "Perps" could be unrelated and/or alien.

WM

Give Kevin time, though). Again, to me this
> indicates human agency. That leaves only some forgotten pre-Jihad
> group. (The destruction of the computers and AI would have meant the
> destruction of all their stored data. In a way Duniverse humanity
> chose to lobotomize itself [temporarily] in order to survive.)
>
> I'm sure we haven't heard the last of the Muadru or this question from
> The Hacks Twain.

On Feb 2, 11:33 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
wrote:
>         If it were an Oracle vision, he would not need to have a famlial
> /bloodline connection. The "Perps" could be unrelated and/or alien.

I'd have to go back and read that whole section again, but I'm pretty
sure he was talking from memory, Other Memory.

Good point, though...if the oracle vision can indeed see the past.
(Were there other examples of that?)

SandChigger wrote:

> On Feb 2, 11:33 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> wrote:
>
>> If it were an Oracle vision, he would not need to have a famlial
>>/bloodline connection. The "Perps" could be unrelated and/or alien.
>
>
> I'd have to go back and read that whole section again, but I'm pretty
> sure he was talking from memory, Other Memory.
>
> Good point, though...if the oracle vision can indeed see the past.
> (Were there other examples of that?)

Not sure. But whenever I think of possibilities in Dune, I remember
Alia time message to Paul. A power/gift Paul could not replicate, and
which we never heard of again. Did anyone else ever do the mindphuck
thing she pulled on Mohiam? Mine perceptions are slightly skewed by
Lynch's Dune....

WM\

On Feb 3, 12:45 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
wrote:
>         Not sure. But whenever I think of possibilities in Dune, Iremember
> Alia time message to Paul. A power/gift Paul could not replicate, and
> which we never heard of again. Did anyone else ever do the mindphuck
> thing she pulled on Mohiam? Mine perceptions are slightly skewed by
> Lynch's Dune....

But again, that was a projection into the future...whatever that
means.

The MF thing is in Dune, but never explained.

Obviously PInky and The Brain must have had the message thing in mind
when they have Alia being in the Baron ghola's head, but it's never
explained.

Feh.

SandChigger wrote:
> On Feb 3, 12:45 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Not sure. But whenever I think of possibilities in Dune, I remember
>>Alia time message to Paul. A power/gift Paul could not replicate, and
>>which we never heard of again. Did anyone else ever do the mindphuck
>>thing she pulled on Mohiam? Mine perceptions are slightly skewed by
>>Lynch's Dune....
>
>
> But again, that was a projection into the future...whatever that
> means.

I'm not discounting that you are correct that it is Ancestral Memory. I
need to reread that section, while realizing that it might not be
specified. Alternatively, maybe it is AM, but with alien origins in the
past. Remember, the Family Atomics and the Great Convention and how the
atomics were kept as a hedge against alien attack. Maybe they were
acting out of long forgotten memories of a human/alien merge lost in the
mists o' time...... :)



>
> The MF thing is in Dune, but never explained.

And part of the allure of FH. We, the reader, trusted him, and, in a
sense, he trusted us. No need to totally flesh out every concept.
Something I would demand of a less credible author....

WM



>
> Obviously PInky and The Brain must have had the message thing in mind
> when they have Alia being in the Baron ghola's head, but it's never
> explained.
>
> Feh.

"SandChigger" <sandchigger@mac.com> wrote

"That leaves only some forgotten pre-Jihad
group."

Are you ruling out conscious machines?

Tony wrote:

> "SandChigger" <sandchigger@mac.com> wrote
>
> "That leaves only some forgotten pre-Jihad
> group."
>
> Are you ruling out conscious machines?

Like when my watch ordered a pizza without my foreknowledge?

WM

>
>

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:
>
>
> Tony wrote:
>
>> "SandChigger" <sandchigger@mac.com> wrote
>>
>> "That leaves only some forgotten pre-Jihad
>> group."
>>
>> Are you ruling out conscious machines?
>
> Like when my watch ordered a pizza without my foreknowledge?
>

Or your robot vacuum cleaner. ;-)

On Feb 2, 4:49 pm, SandChigger <sandchig...@mac.com> wrote:

> I'd have to go back and read that whole section again, but I'm pretty
> sure he was talking from memory, Other Memory.
>
> Good point, though...if the oracle vision can indeed see the past.
> (Were there other examples of that?)

What if he got the Other Memory from the sand trout surrounding his
body?

Dan Cline

Dan Cline wrote:

> On Feb 2, 4:49 pm, SandChigger <sandchig...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I'd have to go back and read that whole section again, but I'm pretty
>>sure he was talking from memory, Other Memory.
>>
>>Good point, though...if the oracle vision can indeed see the past.
>>(Were there other examples of that?)
>
>
> What if he got the Other Memory from the sand trout surrounding his
> body?

Interesting. But they weren't sentient, were they? And if not, would
that negate racial or cellular memory.....

WM

>
> Dan Cline

Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
>
> Dan Cline wrote:
>> What if he got the Other Memory from the sand trout surrounding his
>> body?
>
> Interesting. But they weren't sentient, were they? And if not, would
> that negate racial or cellular memory.....

If sentience isn't a requirement for OM/AM, then you could expect leto
not just to have memories stretching back to the first human, but
possibly all the way back to the origins of life.

I seem to remember him saying something about how to draw the line and
say "this is the first human" (probably in GEoD, but I only have a vague
memory of what he said and where), which could imply that his memory
went back at least into the grey area between human and ape-like pre human.

Kieran Sanders wrote:

> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Dan Cline wrote:
>>
>>> What if he got the Other Memory from the sand trout surrounding his
>>> body?
>>
>>
>> Interesting. But they weren't sentient, were they? And if not,
>> would that negate racial or cellular memory.....
>
>
> If sentience isn't a requirement for OM/AM, then you could expect leto
> not just to have memories stretching back to the first human, but
> possibly all the way back to the origins of life.
>
> I seem to remember him saying something about how to draw the line and
> say "this is the first human" (probably in GEoD, but I only have a vague
> memory of what he said and where), which could imply that his memory
> went back at least into the grey area between human and ape-like pre human.

Wait a minute. Had Leto II accepted the wormskin when he and Jessica
had this conversation? I'm not sure. This conversation was before he
went missing, no?

WM

On Feb 6, 12:29 am, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
wrote:
>
>         Wait a minute. Had Leto II accepted the wormskin when he and Jessica
> had this conversation? I'm not sure. This conversation was before he
> went missing, no?

Sorry...haven't checked in for a few days.

He hadn't taken the sandtrout skin when he has the conversation with
Ghanima that I was referring to. (It's only a few hundred lines into
the book, IIRC.)

As for him receiving genetic memory from the sandtrout after he did, I
can't think of anything from the books that would support that.

Non-conscious animals have memory, of course, but I think that's
pushing the concept a bit far....

On Feb 4, 9:17 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "SandChigger" <sandchig...@mac.com> wrote
>
> "That leaves only some forgotten pre-Jihad
> group."
>
> Are you ruling out conscious machines?

Aren't you a joy? :D

Actually, in my personal speculations on Duniverse history, I have
contemplated something exactly like that.

My reasoning: in the early stages of space exploration, it will no
doubt be more economical (and safer) to send out unmanned but fairly
clever probes. (NASA has been moving in this direction for a long time
in RL, no?) Depending on what sort of machines are roaming around out
there, and their capabilities, something like that could be
possible...or at least, imaginable.

But there would still have to be humans on Arrakis (early settlers,
who later intermarried with the Fremen? If Leto has OM of the event,
it has to have come to him through Chani's bloodlines) to witness
whatever happened.

SandChigger wrote:

> On Feb 6, 12:29 am, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Wait a minute. Had Leto II accepted the wormskin when he and Jessica
>>had this conversation? I'm not sure. This conversation was before he
>>went missing, no?
>
>
> Sorry...haven't checked in for a few days.
>
> He hadn't taken the sandtrout skin when he has the conversation with
> Ghanima that I was referring to. (It's only a few hundred lines into
> the book, IIRC.)
>
> As for him receiving genetic memory from the sandtrout after he did, I
> can't think of anything from the books that would support that.
>
> Non-conscious animals have memory, of course, but I think that's
> pushing the concept a bit far....

No. No support. But the idea showed promise. But, I'm pretty sure that
Leto II had the origins conversation before accepting the sandtrout....

WM

SandChigger wrote:
> But there would still have to be humans on Arrakis (early settlers,
> who later intermarried with the Fremen? If Leto has OM of the event,
> it has to have come to him through Chani's bloodlines) to witness
> whatever happened.

Its always possible (though less fun to ponder) that he's not quoting
direct OM of the arrival of the sandtrout, but just echoing Grandpa
Kynes' understanding of what happened based on the evidence (dry seas,
ancient water erosion etc).

The worms could have arrived naturally - we don't know that much about
the life cycle - maybe sandtrout could survive a meteor ride.

Alternatively, Leto could just be wrong - they could have evolved in
some niche on Arrakis when it was a wet-world, then had a sudden
population explosion, expanding to fill the whole planet, giving the
appearance of a sudden arrival.

Kieran Sanders wrote:

> SandChigger wrote:
>
>> But there would still have to be humans on Arrakis (early settlers,
>> who later intermarried with the Fremen? If Leto has OM of the event,
>> it has to have come to him through Chani's bloodlines) to witness
>> whatever happened.
>
>
> Its always possible (though less fun to ponder) that he's not quoting
> direct OM of the arrival of the sandtrout, but just echoing Grandpa
> Kynes' understanding of what happened based on the evidence (dry seas,
> ancient water erosion etc).
>
> The worms could have arrived naturally - we don't know that much about
> the life cycle - maybe sandtrout could survive a meteor ride.
>
> Alternatively, Leto could just be wrong - they could have evolved in
> some niche on Arrakis when it was a wet-world, then had a sudden
> population explosion, expanding to fill the whole planet, giving the
> appearance of a sudden arrival.

I'm not saying it wasn't possible, but I think that as a reader I
accept that FH was telling us that what Leto II was saying was a "fact".
Sometimes it is hard to discern when the author is using his "Voice of
God" about his creation and when he is inviting speculation/thought
processes for the reader. I think that FH did indeed wish that this
piece of data be accepted as for what he had determined to be true in
his story.

WM