I'm writing a story about a highly advanced humanoid alien
civilization who are
all gay, males do marry males and raise male children while the
females
do marry females and raise female children.

These extraterrestrials arrive on planet Earth, happy to share their
wisdom,
but soon they discover that most humans hate homosexuals. They decide
that they can't share their knowledge with a species that hates people
just
because of sexual orientation.

Anti-gay activists start to call the aliens "demons", a small group
even plans
a terrorist attack against one of their spaceships.

Will humans, because of anti-gay bigotry lose one of the biggest
chances in
history? Will humans scare away these peaceful gay aliens? Or will
humans
accept homosexuality as a lifestyle?

What do you think about that premise?

Carl Dau wrote:

> What do you think about that premise?

It's pretty awful. Readers don't like being preached to, especially
with such an in-your-face agenda. Write an essay instead, and use
reason rather than such heavy-handed analogues.

--
Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
God said: "Let Newton be"; and all was light.
-- Alexander Pope

Carl Dau schrieb:
> What do you think about that premise?

I think people who cannot adequately handle linebreaks in a Usenet
posting should not write fiction.

mawa

Wasn't it Carl Dau who wrote:
>I'm writing a story about a highly advanced humanoid alien
>civilization who are
>all gay, males do marry males and raise male children while the
>females
>do marry females and raise female children.

If they're exclusively gay, where do the children come from?

--
Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

Carl Dau <lord_melton@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:

> I'm writing a story about a highly advanced humanoid alien civilization
> who are all gay, males do marry males and raise male children while the
> females do marry females and raise female children.

Please give us an outline of how evolution would lead to a result so
absurd ...
--
Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk

On Jan 31, 12:54 am, Carl Dau <lord_mel...@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
> I'm writing a story about a highly advanced humanoid alien
> civilization who are
> all gay, males do marry males and raise male children while the
> females
> do marry females and raise female children.
>
> These extraterrestrials arrive on planet Earth, happy to share their
> wisdom,
> but soon they discover that most humans hate homosexuals. They decide
> that they can't share their knowledge with a species that hates people
> just
> because of sexual orientation.
>
> Anti-gay activists start to call the aliens "demons", a small group
> even plans
> a terrorist attack against one of their spaceships.
>
> Will humans, because of anti-gay bigotry lose one of the biggest
> chances in
> history? Will humans scare away these peaceful gay aliens? Or will
> humans
> accept homosexuality as a lifestyle?
>
> What do you think about that premise?

Like others said: Where do children come from? My first interpretation
of this was that you've described two different (hermaphroditic)
species, since they don't seem to interbreed.

If this isn't the case, you're going to have to describe how sperm
meets egg, and how the male children get to the male couples.

Besides, the terms 'male' and 'female' are tough to apply to
aliens, whose biology is, well, alien. Try looking at how ferns
reproduce. Why should aliens duplicate our particular arrangement,
except for who lives with who?

pt

Mike Williams wrote:

> Wasn't it Carl Dau who wrote:
> > I'm writing a story about a highly advanced humanoid alien
> > civilization who are
> > all gay, males do marry males and raise male children while the
> > females
> > do marry females and raise female children.
>
> If they're exclusively gay, where do the children come from?

NewScientist.com newsletter, 31 January 2008

Dear New Scientist Reader, welcome to the New Scientist newsletter,
which this week reveals how same-sex couples could have children of
their own, how to spot a wormhole by its light, and where to look up
the meaning of "bullshot"...

EDITOR'S CHOICE
Are Male Eggs And Female Sperm On The Horizon? *
A reproductive revolution is in progress. In a handful of labs across
the world, biologists are trying to make genetically male cells develop
into eggs, and female cells into sperm. If successful, their efforts
might one day allow lesbian and gay couples to have children that are
genetically their own... MORE
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/mg19726414.000?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg19726414.000

--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Futures http://dangoodman.livejournal.com
mirror 1: http://dsgood.insanejournal.com
mirror 2: http://dsgood.wordpress.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood

On Jan 30, 10:54 pm, Carl Dau <lord_mel...@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
> I'm writing a story about a highly advanced humanoid alien
> civilization who are
> all gay, males do marry males and raise male children while the
> females
> do marry females and raise female children.
>
> These extraterrestrials arrive on planet Earth, happy to share their
> wisdom,
> but soon they discover that most humans hate homosexuals. They decide
> that they can't share their knowledge with a species that hates people
> just
> because of sexual orientation.
>
> Anti-gay activists start to call the aliens "demons", a small group
> even plans
> a terrorist attack against one of their spaceships.
>
> Will humans, because of anti-gay bigotry lose one of the biggest
> chances in
> history? Will humans scare away these peaceful gay aliens? Or will
> humans
> accept homosexuality as a lifestyle?
>
> What do you think about that premise?


Mind bogglingly stupid.

On the other hand, the OP's species is supposed to be "highly
advanced". That may imply the species evolved with males and females,
but for whatever reason, now depends on cloning, or some other
technological fix. (Such as Dan Goodman's example.)

Cryptoguy's assertion that "male" and "female" sexes are automatically
out of the question because they're extraterrestrials is...dubious.
Some form of sexual reproduction is at least a billion years old on
Earth; it's not unreasonable to assume that it's a fairly common
element to other biospheres as well. (Certainly not as unlikely as
intelligent life, for instance.)

As for "preachy"...Eric Max Francis, am I to take it that you've never
seen an episode of "Star Trek" in any of its incarnations? :)

Damien Valentine <valends3@gmail.com> wrote:

> On the other hand, the OP's species is supposed to be "highly
> advanced". That may imply the species evolved with males and females,
> but for whatever reason, now depends on cloning, or some other
> technological fix. (Such as Dan Goodman's example.)
>
> Cryptoguy's assertion that "male" and "female" sexes are automatically
> out of the question because they're extraterrestrials is...dubious.
> Some form of sexual reproduction is at least a billion years old on
> Earth; it's not unreasonable to assume that it's a fairly common
> element to other biospheres as well. (Certainly not as unlikely as
> intelligent life, for instance.)

Yes, the evolution of two kinds of gametes, one large and stationary and
one small and agile seem to have had major evolutionary advantages.

Which of course does not exclude hermaphroditism - common amongst plants
very rare amongst humans.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality#Hermaphrodite>

> As for "preachy"...Eric Max Francis, am I to take it that you've never
> seen an episode of "Star Trek" in any of its incarnations? :)


--
Per Erik Rønne
http://www.RQNNE.dk

On Jan 31, 7:53 pm, Damien Valentine <valen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On the other hand, the OP's species is supposed to be "highly
> advanced". That may imply the species evolved with males and females,
> but for whatever reason, now depends on cloning, or some other
> technological fix. (Such as Dan Goodman's example.)

One of my core concerns with the premise is the assumption that humans
would view alien homosexuality with the same vehemence as they do
human homosexuality. Granted, Carl defines them as being humanoid, but
that only implies a basic physiological similarity. i.e. bilateral
symmetry, bipedal locomotion, 4 limbs, torso, neck and head.
Chimpanzees have to same morphology and I doubt even the most bigotted
human would be little more than disgusted to see 2 male chimps
kissing. I certainly doubt that any but the most zealous homophobes
would consider such a sight to be morally outrageous.
Thus, for Carl's premise to work, his aliens will have to appear human-
like enough for humans in general to transfer our own moral principles
to the alien's behavior. This then begs the question of parallel
evolution, a la, star trek. (aka the aliens-are-humans-with-pointy-
ears syndrome).


> Cryptoguy's assertion that "male" and "female" sexes are automatically
> out of the question because they're extraterrestrials is...dubious.
> Some form of sexual reproduction is at least a billion years old on
> Earth; it's not unreasonable to assume that it's a fairly common
> element to other biospheres as well. (Certainly not as unlikely as
> intelligent life, for instance.)

Again to the point of morphology. I personally think that it's fair to
assume sexual reproduction is probably as common on other earth-type
planets as it is here. But it's important to remember that gender is
not always immediately apparent based on appearance. For instance, how
many people can tell the difference between a male and female ladybird
beetle? or male and female goldfish? For a long time scientist thought
that seahorse males were actually females due to the way seahorses
protect their young. Wouldn't a person seeing a penguin for the first
time, holding an egg and keeping it warm, naturally assume that the
penguin was a she?

Perhaps a better approach to Carl's basic premise is a species where
all members appear to be one gender so that superficially the entire
race seems to be homosexual, while in reality, most couples are
perfectly "normal" heterosexuals. This allows for a taste of irony as
the author gradually reveals that the demonizing bigots hate the
aliens not because the aliens are homosexuals, but because the bigots
find it easier to hate than to take the time to understand the truth.

Or maybe reverse the premise and have the supposed "superior" race
come to earth, notice how over populated our planet is and then
"solve" the problem by forcing us to abandon heterosexual sex "for our
own good."

Basically, either approach simply takes the root conflict, i.e. one
sapient being enforcing it's moral standards on another, and presents
a different way of presenting the same conflict.

> As for "preachy"...Eric Max Francis, am I to take it that you've never
> seen an episode of "Star Trek" in any of its incarnations? :)

While I agree that many readers don't enjoy fiction that is overly
"preachy" or heavy-handed in it's agenda, I also want to point out
that one of the things that makes sci-fi literarily relevant is it's
ability to take on social and moral issues in unusual ways. Many fine
examples of heavy-handed, "preachy" sci-fi exist. Rand's "Anthem" for
instance, Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land", Daniel
Quinn's "After Dachau", and Dick's "The Man in the High Castle". Can
you get more "preachy" and heavy-handed than "Fahrenheit 451?"

However, It is presentation that distinguishes someone like Daniel
Quinn from someone like, say, Richard Bach, is that Quinn has a real
story to tell. He constructs a plot arc, his characters are fully
realized beings rather than arch typical stand-ins, his characters
grow and change, and he doesn't confuse a plot device for the plot
itself.

Summary, Quinn tells a story that has a message. Bach just has a
message presented in something vaguely story shaped. Now, if I pick up
a book wanting the former and get the later, I'm going to be pissed.

So, If you have a story, a real story, write it. But if you have an
essay you want to trick people into reading by thinly disguising it as
a story...well... that's what blogs and forums are for, isn't it?

Mike Williams <nospam@econym.demon.co.uk> writes:

> Wasn't it Carl Dau who wrote:

>>I'm writing a story about a highly advanced humanoid alien
>>civilization who are all gay, males do marry males and raise male
>>children while the females do marry females and raise female
>>children.
>
> If they're exclusively gay, where do the children come from?

From male and females procreating, something that's apparently not
related to human sex.

Fetters <juddfetters@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 31, 7:53 pm, Damien Valentine <valen...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On the other hand, the OP's species is supposed to be "highly
> > advanced". That may imply the species evolved with males and females,
> > but for whatever reason, now depends on cloning, or some other
> > technological fix. (Such as Dan Goodman's example.)

> One of my core concerns with the premise is the assumption that humans
> would view alien homosexuality with the same vehemence as they do
> human homosexuality.

I think you mistake biology for culture. Everything suggests that Homo
sapiens is a bisexual species as are our close relatives: Pan paniscus,
Pan troglodytes and Gorilla gorilla.

<http://www.stanford.edu/~lehmann/NVSavoLehmann.pdf>

Furthermore do remember the Greek and Roman views on same-gender sex.
--
Per Erik Rønne, MSc
Frederikssundsvej 308B, 3. tv.
DK-2700 Brønshøj, Denmark
Telephone + fax +45 38 89 00 16, mobile +45 28 23 09 92
http://www.RQNNE.dk

Damien Valentine wrote:

> As for "preachy"...Eric Max Francis, am I to take it that you've never
> seen an episode of "Star Trek" in any of its incarnations? :)

heh. Well, while _Star Trek_ can get up there on the preach-o-meter at
times, it's rarely as preachy as _this_ plot outline.

--
Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
Human love is often but the encounter of two weaknesses.
-- Francois Mauriac

In article <1ibkvx4.1s22dvop7kczrN%per@RQNNE.invalid>,
Per Rønne <spam@rqnne.dk> wrote:
>Carl Dau <lord_melton@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
>
>> I'm writing a story about a highly advanced humanoid alien civilization
>> who are all gay, males do marry males and raise male children while the
>> females do marry females and raise female children.
>
>Please give us an outline of how evolution would lead to a result so
>absurd ...

There is a species of any where the males and females are technically
two separate species. The role of sex in ant reproduction is pretty
weird to begin with--both fertilized and unfertilized eggs can develop.
One species somehow developed a new wrinkle on top of this such that
while male and female ants both develop from eggs laid by queens, there
is no longer any genetic exchange going on.

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