A reminder: These threads altered *his* reality! Get it? I... never
mind.


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
Director: David Solomon

Because clearly we haven't talked this one to death, yet. Okay, so
"Hell's Bells" has a few pleasant moments among the core cast (the
expressions of affection between Buffy and Xander are particularly
nice to have; we don't get enough of that, and it leads us into the
next part of the season). There's also an unexpectedly powerful
depiction of a nightmare-fantasy, and some painfully bad humor. But
the last three minutes or so are the core of the show, and how much
one appreciates that part more or less shapes one's opinion of the
whole exercise. As has been discussed at great length, I pretty much
hate it, because I continue to not buy Xander's decision at the end
(or the way it leads us to the nearly un-twist-able cliché of the
bride left sobbing at the alter). A comment that I found helpful from
the original thread (from Michael) is that Xander's choice is
[supposed to be] an epiphany, not a moment of panic. It doesn't play
that way at all, though. Meanwhile, I don't think that camouflaging
Anya's part of the story by putting the decision in Xander's hands was
the right way to play it - HB never feels like it's as much about Anya
as Xander, and that's backwards, given that their "crimes" are far
from equivalent. Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
our favorite rapist vampire in "Him") or off (the recent post
suggesting that Xander deserves to have his heart literally ripped out
for the horrible thing he's done to Anya), I'm always reminded of what
a mess this episode makes of its story and characters.
Rating: Weak


Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
Writer: Diego Gutierrez
Director: Rick Rosenthal

And then we get this entry. It uses a vintage sci-fi stock plot and
loads of meta to build a crushingly depressing world unlike anything
else in the series, and make it one of the most important moments of
Season Six rather than a one-off novelty. (And yes, there's a bit of
a retcon with Buffy's parents hearing about vampires, but easily hand-
waved away.) As has been commented, we get so used to Sarah Michelle
Gellar being great in her role that we almost take it for granted, but
I'm in awe of her acting in this particular episode - chick can do
more using only her eyes than many actors manage in a lifetime. I
appreciate the pacing more rather than less with re-watching.
Originally I was a bit thrown by the fact that our hero doesn't logic
her way home, but just takes a leap of feeling, and neither the
character (or the audience, given the ambiguous ending) can
definitively say that Sunnydale is the real story. Thanks to our
discussions afterward, I soon came to see that ambiguity as one of the
show's greatest strengths. Buffy has no way to dodge the moment that
the whole season has been leading up to: she has to see the easy path
contrasted with the harder life, and say, using only her heart, "I
choose to live." You've come a long way, kid. In a likely futile
attempt to stir up a little bit of extra discussion/controversy, I was
considering arguing for "Normal Again" as the best episode of S6, but
it might have some difficulties holding up against the greatest greats
in terms of scene-by-scene quality. In any case, it's really good.
Rating: Excellent


Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: James A. Contner

I've never been a huge fan of "Entropy," despite the fact that it's
full of good ideas and has a few big moments (hmm, I wonder who the
writer might be...). The conclusion brings us a very well played
falling out at the end (and a sweet coda that's intentionally jarring
for the contrast with the other storylines). Until then, well, the
necessary checklist of interactions and revelations happen that are
needed to get us there, and the jokes work just frequently enough to
keep the viewer on board. (I like William's idea of how the Anya-
recruiting-people sequence could be trimmed to end with a montage of
punchlines, but then how'd they pad out the hour?) So the episode
does its job in an adequate sort of way, I guess.
Rating: Decent


Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
Director: Michael Gershman

One thing that jumped out at me is an indication of what kind of
series this is. We've just gone through an episode that tends to be,
shall we say, on the dark side, including some brutal acts of
violence. Then we have a big cathartic fight that tilts the pendulum
back to fantasy with Buffy smashing the villain's "balls..." and then he
takes off with a freakin' jet-pack. It's so amazingly silly that what
can you do but say 'oh, come on?!" I don't know why I didn't
appreciate it, but even in an episode like this, BTVS can turn die-
laughing hilarious on a dime, and then turn back to brutality for the
ending just as quickly.

There's a lot to like about the way the pieces of the season snap
together for its climax, and I appreciate the craft in the way Spike
is forced to confront head-on how hopeless his predicament is, the way
the episode explores how grounded in humanity Warren's evil is, and
the excellent B/X exchanges. But does everything have to be so
extreme and unpleasant to watch (I don't find dark or depressing
things to necessarily be unpleasant viewing, but parts of SR are - the
rape attempt more so than the death scene)? Does the volume need to
be turned so high up - Spike's evil becoming clear in the most stock-
evil way, with Buffy spending so much time loudly begging him to
stop? Do characters always need to be killed off within a day of
becoming their very happiest? (Apparently so, if you're Joss.) All
in all, of all the episodes in the series, including the ones I hate,
"Seeing Red" is the hardest one for me to watch. As I'm sure you can
tell, I haven't quite figured out whether or not that's a good thing,
but just like last time, I'm leaning towards "mostly."
Rating: Good


Additional comments on S6D5: One of the commentaries I was warned
about was the one for "Hell's Bells." Yeesh. That may be my pick for
worst commentary track. In particular, compare it others on the
Season Six set. Ideally, an audio commentary is a chance for a writer
to directly address contentious points. "Many people took issue with
this choice, and I think I may have gotten it wrong, but what I was
trying for was..." "Some thought that this didn't make sense, but I
believe it works, and it's entirely in character, because..." Most
don't actually go that far, but most of the S6 commentators do at
least manage a passing mention that he was surprises that opinions
varied so widely about this scene, or whatever. But Rebecca and David
just vapidly mumble away, apparently in blissful ignorance of the fact
that they've created one of the most hated, or at least one of the
more controversial episodes of the series.

Adam Bush must be a good actor, at least in this particular role (I'm
not so fond of his work as Willow in TKIM, though), given that I have
a weird mental block that keeps me from not getting a hostile reaction
when he shows up in featurettes and such. There's some conscious
effort that has to go into even a routine "okay, this is not Warren,
who is a fictional character. This is the actor who plays him, and
does not share his personality or opinions in real life." Also, after
months and months to get used to the idea, the notion of Amber Benson
and Bush as a real-life couple is still hard to grasp.

Speaking of whom, I do have to echo the question of whether the
writers intentionally dressed Tara in unflattering outfits. The
character isn't as attractive to me as most of the other hot chicks,
but Benson appears just sitting in a chair in street clothes in some
of the interviews on the bonus disc, and she is so beautiful.

Thoughts?

-AOQ
~out of town for a few days, BTW~

> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"

> the original thread (from Michael) is that Xander's choice is
> [supposed to be] an epiphany, not a moment of panic. It doesn't play

its a panicked epiphany

actually its not epiphany because epiphany is a sudden clarity of insight
where instead xander still misses the point
hes problem isnt marrying anya (what would really changef
from what they already are doing?)
his problem is being a harris
which means being a failure

the epiphany would be he is himself
and he free to be another harris or a xander or whatever else

> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> Writer: Diego Gutierrez
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
>
> And then we get this entry. It uses a vintage sci-fi stock plot and
> loads of meta to build a crushingly depressing world unlike anything
> else in the series, and make it one of the most important moments of
> Season Six rather than a one-off novelty. (And yes, there's a bit of
> a retcon with Buffy's parents hearing about vampires, but easily hand-
> waved away.) As has been commented, we get so used to Sarah Michelle

ive read the comics sense and tehre actually is a sensible answer
it was dawn ratting on buffy that got buffy sent to the hospital

without dawn buffys diary wouldve remained private and her parents clueless

so end of season two dawnless and buffy never received psychiatric treatment
but season six dawnful and buffy did receive treatment

> her way home, but just takes a leap of feeling, and neither the
> character (or the audience, given the ambiguous ending) can
> definitively say that Sunnydale is the real story. Thanks to our

i was irritated that the writers thought it was clever to play with reality
when what it really does is ridicule viewers who are emotionally invested

i already know sunnydale is fictional

comforting though is that psychiatric side of the story cannot be real
any psychiatrist encouraging a patient to get more deeply invest
in a delusion would lose his job

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...


> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"


> Because clearly we haven't talked this one to death, yet.

Just waiting for you to get it right... Hey, some windmills I'm fated to
tilt at.


> Okay, so
> "Hell's Bells" has a few pleasant moments among the core cast (the
> expressions of affection between Buffy and Xander are particularly
> nice to have; we don't get enough of that, and it leads us into the
> next part of the season).

While the Xander/Anya break-up is at the center of our disagreement about
this episode, I don't sense that you appreciate the trappings of the episode
as much as I do either. We're probably closest on this, though your few
pleasant moments strike me as the dominating quality of the episode until
the tragedy takes over. There's a lot of it. Personal moments with
Buffy/Xander, Buffy/Spike, Willow/Xander and Willow/Tara. (The latter
culminating in them finding each other in the chaos - which is kind of the
light version of the real reconciliation at the end of Entropy.) More
individual moments like Anya's expression of love as she works out her vows
and Dawn chatting with the teen-demon about how lame adults are.

There's a general sense of peace (apart from Xander/Anya wedding nerves) and
happiness among the gang that bespeaks the season's positive progress so
often disregarded in criticism. The center of this for me is Buffy enjoying
herself like we haven't seen for a couple of seasons - and not so often
before that. Kind of the proof of what a load off it is for her to finally
walk away from Spike - though also evidence that the sidetrack with him was
worth it, for it's even further from the despair of OMWF.


> There's also an unexpectedly powerful
> depiction of a nightmare-fantasy, and some painfully bad humor.

I find the episode hilarious. While sentiment shows up here and dark hints
show up there, the bulk of the episode is devoted to a steady stream of
humor that I think almost always works. From Anya's fractured vows, to
squirmy gifts, to Willow's double X's to Clem declaiming on circus folk
heritage, and on and on. This and the sweet character moments make Hell's
Bells one of the supreme feel good experiences of the series - until the
ending of course. But even then, the high contrast serves well to emphasize
each.

The third major element for most of the episode is a pretty clever usage of
the classic clash of bride and groom families to construct an allegory
representing the human/demon divide between Xander and Anya (also within
Anya), and the baggage of their past that both bring to the impending union.
Ultimately played out in a literal human/demon fight. This is mostly played
out as humor (with an outstanding group of one episode character actors -
great casting - and a testament to the high professionalism that really can
be found in Hollywood), but effectively bridging to the tragedy with its
underlying message of unresolved conflict.

I'm emphasizing these elements in this go around, because I want it
understood that my high rating for this episode is not just based on what it
does to the Xander/Anya saga. I think it's a beautifully constructed
episode that metes out the contrasting joy and tragedy in a pretty unique
for BtVS fashion. It couldn't be so wonderful without all of those other
elements woven together so enchantedly. Of course the Xander/Anya tragedy
remains the biggest thing.


> But
> the last three minutes or so are the core of the show, and how much
> one appreciates that part more or less shapes one's opinion of the
> whole exercise. As has been discussed at great length, I pretty much
> hate it, because I continue to not buy Xander's decision at the end
> (or the way it leads us to the nearly un-twist-able cliché of the
> bride left sobbing at the alter). A comment that I found helpful from
> the original thread (from Michael) is that Xander's choice is
> [supposed to be] an epiphany, not a moment of panic. It doesn't play
> that way at all, though.

Sure it does. And that may be the sum of our difference. (And my
difference with so many others on this episode.) I wish I had found that
distinction earlier. I guess the weight of that thread overwhelmed my
ability to pick up the best nuances. (Good observation, Michael.) I've
always struggled with why people think his behavior is against character or
mean spirited when I can't imagine him acting otherwise once the weight of
understanding that fell onto him sinks in, nor see his act as other than
forestalling disaster for himself and the woman he loves.

One side thing about the example of his parents, which is often pointed to
as what Xander knows and his inner demon, but also derided as already proven
not inevitable as he escapes his basement and otherwise develops. Both
points true I think. But that example also acts as simpler evidence that
people can and do commit themselves to ****ed up lives, whatever the reason,
and without intention. (Surely his parents didn't marry with the plan to be
miserable.) The truth of the vision was that the Xander in it was really
Xander. (He's the one depicted throughout as his current self - unlike the
imagined Anya and childeren.) A Xander that we know from experience is
quite capable of being mean and spiteful and able to act with willful bad
judgement. That's not necessarily what his future has to be, and surely not
what he wants, but it is the part that he knows. The part that he can
actually foresee.

And there's the rub. Right now he doesn't have the imagination for the
alternative. He doesn't want the house, the kids or the boat. He doesn't
have a clue what he wants or how to find out. All he has is an intoxication
for Anya. That's fine. But that's where the comparison with his parents
really comes in. So did they. Getting married would show no more judgement
than they had. It's painfully obvious to me that Xander really isn't ready
to be married. When you add the reasons Anya isn't ready either, all I can
think is thank heavens they stopped before they were trapped.

(About the cliché - the sobbing bride may have been done before, but I know
of few so effective. From my point of view, this is what the clichés try
and fail to achieve.)


> Meanwhile, I don't think that camouflaging
> Anya's part of the story by putting the decision in Xander's hands was
> the right way to play it - HB never feels like it's as much about Anya
> as Xander, and that's backwards, given that their "crimes" are far
> from equivalent.

It's not about balancing crimes. They each have a block to a successful
marriage roughly equivalent in imapct to a marriage. That one would lead to
considerably more jail time isn't relevant to the moment.

It needs to be Xander's decision for a couple of reasons. First is because
Anya is oblivious to any problem - either within Xander or herself. Xander
is the more aware one. While, Xander's own failings are the primary impetus
to his decision, he's been shown to be concerned about Anya's demon side as
well. The failure of the wedding is the means by which Anya is finally
forced to face herself - a process that this just begins. But while she
doesn't get it the way Xander does, nor make the decision, it *is* shown
that its her past catching up with her that instigates it. Without
camouflage. I sure didn't have any trouble getting the underlying meaning
of that demon saying, "You did this. You brought this on." It's not subtle.

I think that's sufficient reason for it being Xander's decision, but I
believe there's a more important reason - and one that cannot be written any
other way. Anya's core inner fear, the one that has shaped 1100 years, is
her fear of rejection. It's the negative motivation that moves her most and
something she has never dealt with. Indeed, she's repeatedly used it to
pressure Xander. I believe the only way she can genuinely grow is to be
rejected by Xander. That's certainly the choice M.E. made. And I think it
serves brilliantly as the foundation for her story to come.


> Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
> our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")

I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally equivalent
or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that relationships make
people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's one of
the good parts.


> or off (the recent post
> suggesting that Xander deserves to have his heart literally ripped out
> for the horrible thing he's done to Anya), I'm always reminded of what
> a mess this episode makes of its story and characters.

I can't deny that the conclusion of this episode hit an awful lot of people
very negatively. From a meta perspective of what's good for sustaining the
popularity of the series, then I'd agree that Hell's Bells was pretty much a
disaster. I'm at a loss how to respond to that since this episode still
thrills me. The only downside to it that I can see is that there's not much
left to do with Xander after this. But I'm not sure there was much to do
with him married either.

> Rating: Weak

Excellent. Probably somewhere around 10th best in the series.


> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"


> And then we get this entry. It uses a vintage sci-fi stock plot and
> loads of meta to build a crushingly depressing world unlike anything
> else in the series, and make it one of the most important moments of
> Season Six rather than a one-off novelty. (And yes, there's a bit of
> a retcon with Buffy's parents hearing about vampires, but easily hand-
> waved away.) As has been commented, we get so used to Sarah Michelle
> Gellar being great in her role that we almost take it for granted, but
> I'm in awe of her acting in this particular episode - chick can do
> more using only her eyes than many actors manage in a lifetime. I
> appreciate the pacing more rather than less with re-watching.
> Originally I was a bit thrown by the fact that our hero doesn't logic
> her way home, but just takes a leap of feeling, and neither the
> character (or the audience, given the ambiguous ending) can
> definitively say that Sunnydale is the real story. Thanks to our
> discussions afterward, I soon came to see that ambiguity as one of the
> show's greatest strengths. Buffy has no way to dodge the moment that
> the whole season has been leading up to: she has to see the easy path
> contrasted with the harder life, and say, using only her heart, "I
> choose to live." You've come a long way, kid. In a likely futile
> attempt to stir up a little bit of extra discussion/controversy, I was
> considering arguing for "Normal Again" as the best episode of S6, but
> it might have some difficulties holding up against the greatest greats
> in terms of scene-by-scene quality.

That's not crazy. It's an ingenious story that really climaxes Buffy's
recovery. But it's not as broadly impactful to all the season's stories -
and even for Buffy there are still things to resolve. Of course Normal
Again is doing something very different. The clincher for OMWF (and a
couple others) for me is that not so many scenes stick in my head
afterwards, and it doesn't get referenced back to very often. A lack of
hummable songs would probably be an unfair criticism, but that's the
competition it's up against. Too bad.

> In any case, it's really good.
> Rating: Excellent

I agree. Which is an upgrade. I had been feeling a little weary of this
episode, but I guess the time between watchings erased that because it felt
really fresh to me this time. The drama at full throttle.


> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"

> I've never been a huge fan of "Entropy," despite the fact that it's
> full of good ideas and has a few big moments (hmm, I wonder who the
> writer might be...).

I think this is my favorite episode of his, which goes a long way towards
easing whatever negative feelings I might have about him.


> The conclusion brings us a very well played
> falling out at the end (and a sweet coda that's intentionally jarring
> for the contrast with the other storylines).

But synched in too. Tara and Willow are taking the chance with issues left
unresolved that Xander couldn't bring himself to do.


> Until then, well, the
> necessary checklist of interactions and revelations happen that are
> needed to get us there, and the jokes work just frequently enough to
> keep the viewer on board. (I like William's idea of how the Anya-
> recruiting-people sequence could be trimmed to end with a montage of
> punchlines, but then how'd they pad out the hour?) So the episode
> does its job in an adequate sort of way, I guess.

I love this episode start to finish. Read my post in AOQ's first review
thread for the details.

I'll limit observations this time to how much Anya's vengeance urge blinds
her. So hurt that she doesn't see the love poured on her. So angry and
determined for payback that she can't see how much pain Xander already is
in. Finally, very late she begins to show a little humanity and awareness
that vengeance won't work. But by then she'd unintentionally inflicted a
vengeance that made her great fear come true (for the moment anyway) that
Xander doesn't love her like she loves him.

> Rating: Decent

A very cleverly constructed episode that entertains the socks off me. Plus
an outstanding performance by EC. Excellent. (Notice a pattern for this
disc?)


> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"

> One thing that jumped out at me is an indication of what kind of
> series this is. We've just gone through an episode that tends to be,
> shall we say, on the dark side, including some brutal acts of
> violence. Then we have a big cathartic fight that tilts the pendulum
> back to fantasy with Buffy smashing the villain's "balls..." and then he
> takes off with a freakin' jet-pack. It's so amazingly silly that what
> can you do but say 'oh, come on?!" I don't know why I didn't
> appreciate it, but even in an episode like this, BTVS can turn die-
> laughing hilarious on a dime, and then turn back to brutality for the
> ending just as quickly.

The way the episode packs in so much with such variety of feeling makes me
think of Innocence as comparison. It's not nearly as good as that, but it's
of that type, and representative of what BtVS seeks for at its best when its
various stories come together and come to a head.


> There's a lot to like about the way the pieces of the season snap
> together for its climax, and I appreciate the craft in the way Spike
> is forced to confront head-on how hopeless his predicament is, the way
> the episode explores how grounded in humanity Warren's evil is, and
> the excellent B/X exchanges. But does everything have to be so
> extreme and unpleasant to watch (I don't find dark or depressing
> things to necessarily be unpleasant viewing, but parts of SR are - the
> rape attempt more so than the death scene)?

I think the answer is yes. I mean the episode could have filmed the rape
scene less awfully or even chosen a different way altogether to bring
Spike's crisis to a head, but I'm skeptical that either choice would impact
as strongly. We're justifying a soul-quest here, which in Buffyverse terms
is about as monumental as it gets.


> Does the volume need to
> be turned so high up - Spike's evil becoming clear in the most stock-
> evil way, with Buffy spending so much time loudly begging him to
> stop? Do characters always need to be killed off within a day of
> becoming their very happiest? (Apparently so, if you're Joss.)

That he's drawn to do it at all is certainly a characteristic of Joss. But
my take on the timing is that it's more representative of Joss's sense of
economy of story. Don't drag it out when the greatest drama is now.


> All
> in all, of all the episodes in the series, including the ones I hate,
> "Seeing Red" is the hardest one for me to watch.

For what it's worth, I used to say that. Not so much anymore. I don't
think in a jaded sense. (I still tear up at the end.) Though I suppose the
shock value has inevitably declined. But I think that's balanced by a
deeper immerse into the characters that lets me appreciate it a little
differently. Ultimately I think Spike is more hurt than Buffy by the
attempted rape. He can never live down the shame of it - even less so with
a soul. Buffy... well the rape failed. She was too strong for it ever to
succeed. And it perversely validated her decision with Spike - especially
the sense that he couldn't be trusted. There's a sadness to that of course,
but that her decision is proven correct matters. Maybe most of all because,
unlike the many times before, she didn't succumb to his advances. A
strength of spirit within Buffy as well as strength of muscle.

It's not exactly part of Buffy's healing, because it's now clear that had
already happened. But it does verify it, ease one of her remaining fears,
and lets her move forward. That last is immediately demonstrated by her
very purposeful attempt to finally deal with the Trio.


> As I'm sure you can
> tell, I haven't quite figured out whether or not that's a good thing,
> but just like last time, I'm leaning towards "mostly."
> Rating: Good

All Excellent for me. A truly great episode. Willow's eyes turning dark at
the end is fraught with implications beyond any episode closer that I can
think of. Six seasons of Willow until now seem compressed into that moment.
You know the trouble to come is going to be volcanic.


> Additional comments on S6D5: One of the commentaries I was warned
> about was the one for "Hell's Bells." Yeesh. That may be my pick for
> worst commentary track.

Now there's something about Hell's Bells that we can agree on. There are
some other dull commentaries, but I don't recall any others being so
actively disagreeable.

OBS

Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: These threads altered *his* reality! Get it? I... never
> mind.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Because clearly we haven't talked this one to death, yet.

Well, no, but it's one of the walking wounded if that's any consolation.



Yeah, probably not.

> bride left sobbing at the alter). A comment that I found helpful from
> the original thread (from Michael) is that Xander's choice is
> [supposed to be] an epiphany, not a moment of panic.

I don't know if I'd go there so much as the result of that one last
straw in a pile of doubts that have been loading up for quite a while now.

> Rating: Weak

I have to call it a *little* higher than that just for the Xander/Buffy,
Xander/Willow, and Willow/Tara interactions (not to mention finding out
what Willow *really* wanted to wear as "best man." I'd have given a
whole bunch if she'd been able to do that, too...) But probably not
much. It's my second least-favorite episode in Season Six, and I don't
even put a whole lot of thought into actually rating episodes like that.

> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> "Seeing Red" is the hardest one for me to watch. As I'm sure you can
> tell, I haven't quite figured out whether or not that's a good thing,
> but just like last time, I'm leaning towards "mostly."

I agree. I'll take a show that makes me hurt over one that gives me an
"Eh, who cares?" reaction any day.

> Adam Bush must be a good actor, at least in this particular role (I'm
> not so fond of his work as Willow in TKIM, though),

No, dialogue that would have felt completely natural if it had been
Alyson delivering it fell a little short of the mark. On the other
hand, Alyson seemed to have a little problem with some of the "Warren"
dialogue in that episode, too - maybe because there was no touch of
"fun" in Warren's evil, compared to Vamp Willow?

> given that I have
> a weird mental block that keeps me from not getting a hostile reaction
> when he shows up in featurettes and such. There's some conscious
> effort that has to go into even a routine "okay, this is not Warren,
> who is a fictional character. This is the actor who plays him, and
> does not share his personality or opinions in real life." Also, after
> months and months to get used to the idea, the notion of Amber Benson
> and Bush as a real-life couple is still hard to grasp.

You, too, huh?

>
> Speaking of whom, I do have to echo the question of whether the
> writers intentionally dressed Tara in unflattering outfits. The
> character isn't as attractive to me as most of the other hot chicks,
> but Benson appears just sitting in a chair in street clothes in some
> of the interviews on the bonus disc, and she is so beautiful.

I didn't actually know there *was* any question about the choice of
clothing, but, realistically, they could just as well have been Amber's
choice; if photos are any guide, she often shows up at public
appearances in very kludgy(tm) outfits that would have been right up
Tara's alley. It's pretty unusual - and a refreshing change - to see a
celebrity who's more concerned with comfort than fashion. I like it (I
like Amber, too - I haven't met her, but in all the interviews I've
seen, she comes off as a real hoot.)

And I agree, she's beautiful, but she also has a tendency to work too
hard and lose too much weight in the process - and she didn't have a lot
to spare in the first place. The internet jerk-offs who labeled her
"fat" need to be locked away in a rubber room; just goes to reinforce
the stereotype of the sci-fi/fantasy geek who doesn't have any
experience with real women...

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13q7vakbc1cbe43@news.supernews.com:

> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups
> .com...
>
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
>
>
> While the Xander/Anya break-up is at the center of our
> disagreement about this episode, I don't sense that you
> appreciate the trappings of the episode as much as I do either.
> We're probably closest on this, though your few pleasant moments
> strike me as the dominating quality of the episode until the
> tragedy takes over. There's a lot of it. Personal moments with
> Buffy/Xander, Buffy/Spike, Willow/Xander and Willow/Tara.

BUFFY: but if you're wildly curious, yeah, it hurts.
SPIKE: (softly) I'm sorry. (remembers himself) Or, Good!

I like the way that Spike automatically apologizes, before remembering
that a vampire isn't SUPPOSED to care about hurting people...

>
>> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
>

> I'll limit observations this time to how much Anya's vengeance
> urge blinds her. So hurt that she doesn't see the love poured
> on her. So angry and determined for payback that she can't see
> how much pain Xander already is in.

And she also misses a wish that she could actually grant...

Xander: I wish we could just go back to the way things were before.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

> >> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> >
>
> > I'll limit observations this time to how much Anya's vengeance
> > urge blinds her. So hurt that she doesn't see the love poured
> > on her. So angry and determined for payback that she can't see
> > how much pain Xander already is in.
>
> And she also misses a wish that she could actually grant...
>
> Xander: I wish we could just go back to the way things were before.

anya refuses to accept wishes from men
shes trying to get someone to wish spike into a female
and then she could spikes wish to hurt xander

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in
news:IsKdnfH0Mauc0DnanZ2dnUVZ_qSonZ2d@rcn.net:

> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:13q7vakbc1cbe43@news.supernews.com:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroup
>> s .com...
>>
>>
>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
>>
>>
>> While the Xander/Anya break-up is at the center of our
>> disagreement about this episode, I don't sense that you
>> appreciate the trappings of the episode as much as I do either.
>> We're probably closest on this, though your few pleasant
>> moments strike me as the dominating quality of the episode
>> until the tragedy takes over. There's a lot of it. Personal
>> moments with Buffy/Xander, Buffy/Spike, Willow/Xander and
>> Willow/Tara.
>
> BUFFY: but if you're wildly curious, yeah, it hurts.
> SPIKE: (softly) I'm sorry. (remembers himself) Or, Good!
>
> I like the way that Spike automatically apologizes, before
> remembering that a vampire isn't SUPPOSED to care about hurting
> people...
>
>>
>>> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
>>
>
>> I'll limit observations this time to how much Anya's vengeance
>> urge blinds her. So hurt that she doesn't see the love poured
>> on her. So angry and determined for payback that she can't see
>> how much pain Xander already is in.
>
> And she also misses a wish that she could actually grant...
>
> Xander: I wish we could just go back to the way things were
> before.
>


6-18 "Seeing Red"

Just wanted to add to something OBS mentioned about this episode:

(begin quote)

I mean the episode could have filmed the rape scene less awfully or
even chosen a different way altogether to bring Spike's crisis to a
head, but I'm skeptical that either choice would impact as
strongly. We're justifying a soul-quest here, which in Buffyverse
terms is about as monumental as it gets.

(end quote)

Agreed. What Spike does has to be enough to shock SPIKE. And
there aren't that many other things that will do that.

There's a line in "The Gift" where Spike tells Buffy that he's a
monster but she treats him like a man. What "Seeing Red" does is
hammer home to Spike that he has to decide which he wants to be.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in
news:M7udnTVs6PeihjjanZ2dnUVZ_qiinZ2d@rcn.net:

> Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in
> news:IsKdnfH0Mauc0DnanZ2dnUVZ_qSonZ2d@rcn.net:
>
>> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
>> news:13q7vakbc1cbe43@news.supernews.com:
>>
>>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegrou
>>> p s .com...
>>>
>>>
>>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>>> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
>>>
>>>
>>> While the Xander/Anya break-up is at the center of our
>>> disagreement about this episode, I don't sense that you
>>> appreciate the trappings of the episode as much as I do
>>> either. We're probably closest on this, though your few
>>> pleasant moments strike me as the dominating quality of the
>>> episode until the tragedy takes over. There's a lot of it.
>>> Personal moments with Buffy/Xander, Buffy/Spike, Willow/Xander
>>> and Willow/Tara.
>>
>> BUFFY: but if you're wildly curious, yeah, it hurts.
>> SPIKE: (softly) I'm sorry. (remembers himself) Or, Good!
>>
>> I like the way that Spike automatically apologizes, before
>> remembering that a vampire isn't SUPPOSED to care about hurting
>> people...

Just a quick note on "Normal Again".

It occurred to be that the title doesn't just refer to Buffy being
a (more or less) "normal girl" in the "alternate-reality". It also
refers to this episode being the last step in her recovery. She
isn't working her way out of depression, she's "normal again".
Normal, at least, for Buffy.

("As You Were" has some of the same connotation. And Buffy is
almost recovered by the end of that episode.)

>>
>>>
>>>> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
>>>
>>
>>> I'll limit observations this time to how much Anya's vengeance
>>> urge blinds her. So hurt that she doesn't see the love poured
>>> on her. So angry and determined for payback that she can't
>>> see how much pain Xander already is in.
>>
>> And she also misses a wish that she could actually grant...
>>
>> Xander: I wish we could just go back to the way things were
>> before.
>>
>
>
> 6-18 "Seeing Red"
>
> Just wanted to add to something OBS mentioned about this
> episode:
>
> (begin quote)
>
> I mean the episode could have filmed the rape scene less awfully
> or even chosen a different way altogether to bring Spike's
> crisis to a head, but I'm skeptical that either choice would
> impact as strongly. We're justifying a soul-quest here, which
> in Buffyverse terms is about as monumental as it gets.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Agreed. What Spike does has to be enough to shock SPIKE. And
> there aren't that many other things that will do that.
>
> There's a line in "The Gift" where Spike tells Buffy that he's a
> monster but she treats him like a man. What "Seeing Red" does
> is hammer home to Spike that he has to decide which he wants to
> be.
>



--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:21:23 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:

[snip]

> choose to live." You've come a long way, kid. In a likely futile
> attempt to stir up a little bit of extra discussion/controversy, I was
> considering arguing for "Normal Again" as the best episode of S6, but
> it might have some difficulties holding up against the greatest greats
> in terms of scene-by-scene quality.

Well its my favourite of the season and in my top 10 episodes of the
entire show. Its well written, well constructed, well acted, has depth
and pathos.....

[snip]


--
"The Mennonites are even better but if you copy the recipes you have to
understand they were intended for people who do a lot of difficult farm
work every day. Mr. 'I sit at a desk all day' eats that stuff
and soon a one legged man is hunting him with a harpoon." - James Nicoll

On Feb 1, 9:05 pm, mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fh...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > her way home, but just takes a leap of feeling, and neither the
> > character (or the audience, given the ambiguous ending) can
> > definitively say that Sunnydale is the real story. Thanks to our
>
> i was irritated that the writers thought it was clever to play with reality
> when what it really does is ridicule viewers who are emotionally invested
>
> i already know sunnydale is fictional

I can understand not liking it, but why do people insist on seeing
ridicule? There's no ridicule.

-AOQ

On Feb 1, 11:19 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

> > Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
> > our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")
>
> I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally equivalent
> or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that relationships make
> people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's one of
> the good parts.

Well of course she thinks they're comparable, given that she's
comparing them. It's distasteful, but I'm more interested in the way
it makes no ****ing sense. Since the show never challenges her
interpretation, it's another piece that makes it harder for me to
conclude that the writers don't intend us to agree with the characters
that Xander's decision was wrong, and that the wedding fiasco is
fundamentally his fault.

> > or off (the recent post
> > suggesting that Xander deserves to have his heart literally ripped out
> > for the horrible thing he's done to Anya), I'm always reminded of what
> > a mess this episode makes of its story and characters.
>
> I can't deny that the conclusion of this episode hit an awful lot of people
> very negatively. From a meta perspective of what's good for sustaining the
> popularity of the series, then I'd agree that Hell's Bells was pretty much a
> disaster. I'm at a loss how to respond to that since this episode still
> thrills me.

For what it's worth, I sympathize with your plight as much as I
disagree with it. There are individual shows in this and other series
that I appreciate, yet people insist on failing to notice their good
qualities, their criticisms often missing the (obvious) point
entirely. When the near-universal consensus on a quality episode is
that said episode is awful, it's infuriating, and I try not to get
infuriated by such things. Of course, the difference is that I'm the
one who's right, but in either case, one can take comfort in the fact
that the show is what it is, for better or for worse. "Hell's Bells"
will forever be preserved as an uncontestable part of the series
_Buffy the Vampire Slayer_, for each new viewer to form their own
judgments. (Note to people who regularly use the phrase "personal
canon": please shut the **** up.)

> Ultimately I think Spike is more hurt than Buffy by the
> attempted rape. He can never live down the shame of it - even less so with
> a soul. Buffy... well the rape failed. She was too strong for it ever to
> succeed. And it perversely validated her decision with Spike - especially
> the sense that he couldn't be trusted. There's a sadness to that of course,
> but that her decision is proven correct matters. Maybe most of all because,
> unlike the many times before, she didn't succumb to his advances. A
> strength of spirit within Buffy as well as strength of muscle.

I wish it could be more of a position of strength, rather than
spending so much time half-sobbing and begging him to stop. Until she
got a good moment, being in a position of powerlessness like that
can't be so easy to shrug off. Otherwise, it'd be totally instead of
mostly true that the scene exists to serve Spike's arc more than
Buffy's. Buffy's usually pretty blaise about rape attempts that
aren't such close calls, probably related to being able to throw guys
across the room.

-AOQ

On Feb 2, 7:39 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:

> 6-18 "Seeing Red"
>
> Just wanted to add to something OBS mentioned about this episode:
>
> (begin quote)
>
> I mean the episode could have filmed the rape scene less awfully or
> even chosen a different way altogether to bring Spike's crisis to a
> head, but I'm skeptical that either choice would impact as
> strongly. We're justifying a soul-quest here, which in Buffyverse
> terms is about as monumental as it gets.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Agreed. What Spike does has to be enough to shock SPIKE. And
> there aren't that many other things that will do that.

It's just a very melodramatic, unsubtle way to go about telling a
piece of what'll turn out to be a more subtle character arc. Since
this episode occasionally gets compared to "Innocence," think of its
bedroom scene and its depiction of sleeping with someone who turns
into a monster. "Love ya too. I'll call." It's so elegant. Taps
into universal emoptions, yet unique, not playing the scene quite like
anything else on TV. SR's bathroom scene is pure heavy-handedness,
even if its implications aren't.

I'm not using the word "melodrama" in a pejorative sense in this
particular instance; BTVS and ATS have moments that do great things
using the same lack of subtlety. All I can do is wave my hand in a
vague manner and mumble that it doesn't feel quite right here. Part
of it is certainly that I'm personally uncomfortable watching and
being "entertained" by the raw physicality of it, but there are again
other parts of the series where that kind of thing doesn't bother me.

-AOQ

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:49:57 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality
<tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 1, 11:19 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> > Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
>> > our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")
>>
>> I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally equivalent
>> or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that relationships make
>> people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's one of
>> the good parts.
>
>Well of course she thinks they're comparable, given that she's
>comparing them. It's distasteful, but I'm more interested in the way
>it makes no ****ing sense. Since the show never challenges her
>interpretation, it's another piece that makes it harder for me to
>conclude that the writers don't intend us to agree with the characters
>that Xander's decision was wrong, and that the wedding fiasco is
>fundamentally his fault.

Xander's decision was wrong. Not the decision to call off the wedding
(that was right), the decision to then walk away into the rain and leave
Anya swinging in the wind to face her friends and Xander's friends and
family, by herself. You'll have to explain to me how That decision was not
wrong, hopefully slowly and in words of one syllable, because I'm having a
great deal of difficulty understanding it.


--
.... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)

On Feb 8, 9:12 am, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:49:57 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality
>
>
>
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >On Feb 1, 11:19 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
> >> > our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")
>
> >> I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally equivalent
> >> or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that relationships make
> >> people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's one of
> >> the good parts.
>
> >Well of course she thinks they're comparable, given that she's
> >comparing them. It's distasteful, but I'm more interested in the way
> >it makes no ****ing sense. Since the show never challenges her
> >interpretation, it's another piece that makes it harder for me to
> >conclude that the writers don't intend us to agree with the characters
> >that Xander's decision was wrong, and that the wedding fiasco is
> >fundamentally his fault.
>
> Xander's decision was wrong. Not the decision to call off the wedding
> (that was right), the decision to then walk away into the rain and leave
> Anya swinging in the wind to face her friends and Xander's friends and
> family, by herself. You'll have to explain to me how That decision was not
> wrong, hopefully slowly and in words of one syllable, because I'm having a
> great deal of difficulty understanding it.

I'm not sure if I've heard that interpretation before. Are you
suggesting that the method Xander chose for leaving her was more
painful/damaging to her than the rejection itself? If so, I can't
agree. It certainly wasn't the best way to handle it, but everything
I remember Anya saying afterward focuses on the fact that Xander
decided not to marry her, not that she had to face the family
afterward.

-AOQ

On Feb 2, 12:05 am, Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:

> > bride left sobbing at the alter). A comment that I found helpful from
> > the original thread (from Michael) is that Xander's choice is
> > [supposed to be] an epiphany, not a moment of panic.
>
> I don't know if I'd go there so much as the result of that one last
> straw in a pile of doubts that have been loading up for quite a while now.

And dismissed just as quickly as normal jitters. I think HB wants us
to think that they were masking his real fears.

> > Speaking of whom, I do have to echo the question of whether the
> > writers intentionally dressed Tara in unflattering outfits. The
> > character isn't as attractive to me as most of the other hot chicks,
> > but Benson appears just sitting in a chair in street clothes in some
> > of the interviews on the bonus disc, and she is so beautiful.
>
> I didn't actually know there *was* any question about the choice of
> clothing, but, realistically, they could just as well have been Amber's
> choice; if photos are any guide, she often shows up at public
> appearances in very kludgy(tm) outfits that would have been right up
> Tara's alley. It's pretty unusual - and a refreshing change - to see a
> celebrity who's more concerned with comfort than fashion.

I'm just saying that she looks good doing the t-shirt/no makeup thing
- see the bonus disc that comes with the Chosen Collection, for
instance - and I wouldn't imagine that to be less comfortable than
Tara's dresses.

-AOQ

> > Xander's decision was wrong. Not the decision to call off the wedding
> > (that was right), the decision to then walk away into the rain and leave
> > Anya swinging in the wind to face her friends and Xander's friends and
> > family, by herself. You'll have to explain to me how That decision was not
> > wrong, hopefully slowly and in words of one syllable, because I'm having a
> > great deal of difficulty understanding it.
>
> I'm not sure if I've heard that interpretation before. Are you
> suggesting that the method Xander chose for leaving her was more

it was xander who chose to end the wedding on the wedding day
it shouldve been him to announce it
instead of leaving it to anya to deal both the pain
and the humilation of a public rejection

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

On Feb 8, 10:40 pm, mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fh...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> > > Xander's decision was wrong. Not the decision to call off the wedding
> > > (that was right), the decision to then walk away into the rain and leave
> > > Anya swinging in the wind to face her friends and Xander's friends and
> > > family, by herself. You'll have to explain to me how That decision was not
> > > wrong, hopefully slowly and in words of one syllable, because I'm having a
> > > great deal of difficulty understanding it.
>
> > I'm not sure if I've heard that interpretation before. Are you
> > suggesting that the method Xander chose for leaving her was more
>
> it was xander who chose to end the wedding on the wedding day
> it shouldve been him to announce it
> instead of leaving it to anya to deal both the pain
> and the humilation of a public rejection

Xander does a lot of things to cause pain to Anya - it doesn't flow
convincingly at all to me, as I've said, but the episode's agenda is
to pile it on as thick as possible, so she can flip out and go
vengeance-y as a result. The root and most important cause of Anya's
suffering, and the one the show keeps bringing back up, is pretty
clearly (to me) the rejection itself, not the fact that it was public
or the fact that he didn't announce it.

-AOQ

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 20:28:39 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality
<tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 8, 9:12 am, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
>wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:49:57 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality
>>
>>
>>
>> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Feb 1, 11:19 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
>> >> > our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")
>>
>> >> I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally equivalent
>> >> or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that relationships make
>> >> people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's one of
>> >> the good parts.
>>
>> >Well of course she thinks they're comparable, given that she's
>> >comparing them. It's distasteful, but I'm more interested in the way
>> >it makes no ****ing sense. Since the show never challenges her
>> >interpretation, it's another piece that makes it harder for me to
>> >conclude that the writers don't intend us to agree with the characters
>> >that Xander's decision was wrong, and that the wedding fiasco is
>> >fundamentally his fault.
>>
>> Xander's decision was wrong. Not the decision to call off the wedding
>> (that was right), the decision to then walk away into the rain and leave
>> Anya swinging in the wind to face her friends and Xander's friends and
>> family, by herself. You'll have to explain to me how That decision was not
>> wrong, hopefully slowly and in words of one syllable, because I'm having a
>> great deal of difficulty understanding it.
>
>I'm not sure if I've heard that interpretation before. Are you
>suggesting that the method Xander chose for leaving her was more
>painful/damaging to her than the rejection itself? If so, I can't
>agree. It certainly wasn't the best way to handle it, but everything
>I remember Anya saying afterward focuses on the fact that Xander
>decided not to marry her, not that she had to face the family
>afterward.

I wasn't talking about Anya's motivation, or the precedence of causes for
Anya returning the Vengeance Demon status. I wasn talking about Xander's
action looked at from outside (as a viewer). It wasn't wrong because of
what it did, or didn't do, to Anya, it was wrong beacause it was wrong.
It's about taking responsibility for yourself and your actions.

I had a very similar discussion on the group, back in the day, about Buffy
playing 'bobbing for tonsils' with a cross on that female vampire in When
She Was Bad. I consider torture to be wrong, and it doesn't become okay
just becasue Buffy is doing it to a vampire.

I'm not a big fan of 'this is worng, except if womeone we like does it to
someone we don't like'.

(Oh, and Anya is responsible for returning to being a Vengeance Demon.
Xander's actions do not excuse her from being responsible for her own
decisions)


--
"Oh Buffy, you really do need to have
every square inch of your *** kicked."
- Willow Rosenberg

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7062edb-e781-4213-a9fe-14724b93719d@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 1, 11:19 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> > Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
>> > our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")
>>
>> I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally
>> equivalent
>> or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that relationships
>> make
>> people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's one
>> of
>> the good parts.
>
> Well of course she thinks they're comparable, given that she's
> comparing them.

Of course. Just not in degree or as moral equivalents. The comparison is
that both are examples (personally known by Buffy and Dawn) of relationships
making people act badly. The greater conversation is Dawn asking Buffy why
people bother with relationships when they cause so much trouble. If I was
in Dawn's position trying to ask that question I'd likely come up with the
same examples without it occurring to me that anyone would think I was
saying that Xander was equivalent to an undead attempted rapist monster.
How can people carry on rational conversations if every example of something
is required to extend beyond the limits of what's actually being talked
about?

If it's absolutely necessary to extend it that way anyway, then properly
they would represent the opposite ends of a pervasive problem.
Relationships suck. You go with the bad guy, you risk rape. You go with
the good guy, you get left at the altar. You just can't win. That's how
the conversation fits the two together.


> It's distasteful, but I'm more interested in the way
> it makes no ****ing sense. Since the show never challenges her
> interpretation, it's another piece that makes it harder for me to
> conclude that the writers don't intend us to agree with the characters
> that Xander's decision was wrong, and that the wedding fiasco is
> fundamentally his fault.

Dawn doesn't know squat about what's really going on inside Xander or Anya.
She just saw a happy couple turn miserable following the wedding fiasco,
which from her point of view was precipitated by Xander. It's nigh on
impossible for the person walking out at that point to look good in the eyes
of others no matter what the reasons. Xander's stuck with that burden.
Anya's burden comes a different way. Plus she is being used as the object
lesson for the classic feminist position that a woman shouldn't define
herself solely through her man.

Meanwhile, Xander does (with or without Dawn's observation) carry at least
half the responsibility for things going so badly. I don't think he (or
she) was really ready for marriage in his state of mind, but that's due to
insecurities and weaknesses within him, including the failure to face up to
that until such an inopportune time. There's plenty enough blame to go
around.


>> > or off (the recent post
>> > suggesting that Xander deserves to have his heart literally ripped out
>> > for the horrible thing he's done to Anya), I'm always reminded of what
>> > a mess this episode makes of its story and characters.
>>
>> I can't deny that the conclusion of this episode hit an awful lot of
>> people
>> very negatively. From a meta perspective of what's good for sustaining
>> the
>> popularity of the series, then I'd agree that Hell's Bells was pretty
>> much a
>> disaster. I'm at a loss how to respond to that since this episode still
>> thrills me.
>
> For what it's worth, I sympathize with your plight as much as I
> disagree with it. There are individual shows in this and other series
> that I appreciate, yet people insist on failing to notice their good
> qualities, their criticisms often missing the (obvious) point
> entirely. When the near-universal consensus on a quality episode is
> that said episode is awful, it's infuriating, and I try not to get
> infuriated by such things. Of course, the difference is that I'm the
> one who's right, but in either case, one can take comfort in the fact
> that the show is what it is, for better or for worse. "Hell's Bells"
> will forever be preserved as an uncontestable part of the series
> _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_, for each new viewer to form their own
> judgments. (Note to people who regularly use the phrase "personal
> canon": please shut the **** up.)

Well, at least the ones hating Xander are implicitly accepting the canon, if
not sympathizing with his plight. Perhaps they can take solace in Xander
and Anya eventually making up with each other at least some.

(Incidentally, I like the Ferengi stories on DS9 too. Hee.)


>> Ultimately I think Spike is more hurt than Buffy by the
>> attempted rape. He can never live down the shame of it - even less so
>> with
>> a soul. Buffy... well the rape failed. She was too strong for it ever
>> to
>> succeed. And it perversely validated her decision with Spike -
>> especially
>> the sense that he couldn't be trusted. There's a sadness to that of
>> course,
>> but that her decision is proven correct matters. Maybe most of all
>> because,
>> unlike the many times before, she didn't succumb to his advances. A
>> strength of spirit within Buffy as well as strength of muscle.
>
> I wish it could be more of a position of strength, rather than
> spending so much time half-sobbing and begging him to stop. Until she
> got a good moment, being in a position of powerlessness like that
> can't be so easy to shrug off. Otherwise, it'd be totally instead of
> mostly true that the scene exists to serve Spike's arc more than
> Buffy's. Buffy's usually pretty blaise about rape attempts that
> aren't such close calls, probably related to being able to throw guys
> across the room.

I think a rationale for stripping down the scene to such a raw level is to
leave no out for Spike to see his own responsibility. (Perhaps foreshadowed
by Spike's, "Stop me," on the balcony in Dead Things.) Spike's premise has
been for quite a while that he knows what Buffy "really" wants. On every
level they want to show that it's not.

But I actually agree that the scene doesn't work as well as I imagine it
ought to. If for no other reason than that stripped down feel to it seems
out of context with the way the series plays. It's one of the reasons that
Seeing Red isn't as good as an Innoncence that never steps out of place. I
just don't know what can be done about it. Perhaps the moment was burdened
with more demands than it can withstand.

Also, while Buffy ultimately fares better with the experience than Spike, I
don't mean to suggest that it wasn't miserable for her - especially while
happening. Buffy did care for Spike and had invested a lot of herself in
their relationship. The attempted rape validated her conclusion that she
could never trust him, but that's an awful result that she so much would
have preferred not to be true, nor to have to experience. Spike failed
Buffy as well as himself, and that really hurt, even though she knew it
eventually had to happen.

Lastly, this got me thinking about the old question, "Where's the Buffy?" in
the story line. The immediate impact is Spike's soul quest - which is a
mighty big story impact. But this also sets the baseline (which for most
people would be a hole too deep to ever climb out of) for Buffy to get past
when she sees the potential for redemption in S7 Spike. I think that part
of the S7 story (re-enforced by Andrew's redemption and to some extent
Anya's) is where the size of Buffy's heart is most shown, along with her
series long determination to follow it.

OBS

"William George Ferguson" <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:2ovsq39jfbh62vm2s4km5lsl5n47ir8753@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 20:28:39 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality
> <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Feb 8, 9:12 am, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
>>wrote:
>>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:49:57 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>> >On Feb 1, 11:19 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>>> >> messagenews:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> >> > Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
>>> >> > our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")
>>>
>>> >> I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally
>>> >> equivalent
>>> >> or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that
>>> >> relationships make
>>> >> people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's
>>> >> one of
>>> >> the good parts.
>>>
>>> >Well of course she thinks they're comparable, given that she's
>>> >comparing them. It's distasteful, but I'm more interested in the way
>>> >it makes no ****ing sense. Since the show never challenges her
>>> >interpretation, it's another piece that makes it harder for me to
>>> >conclude that the writers don't intend us to agree with the characters
>>> >that Xander's decision was wrong, and that the wedding fiasco is
>>> >fundamentally his fault.
>>>
>>> Xander's decision was wrong. Not the decision to call off the wedding
>>> (that was right), the decision to then walk away into the rain and leave
>>> Anya swinging in the wind to face her friends and Xander's friends and
>>> family, by herself. You'll have to explain to me how That decision was
>>> not
>>> wrong, hopefully slowly and in words of one syllable, because I'm having
>>> a
>>> great deal of difficulty understanding it.
>>
>>I'm not sure if I've heard that interpretation before. Are you
>>suggesting that the method Xander chose for leaving her was more
>>painful/damaging to her than the rejection itself? If so, I can't
>>agree. It certainly wasn't the best way to handle it, but everything
>>I remember Anya saying afterward focuses on the fact that Xander
>>decided not to marry her, not that she had to face the family
>>afterward.
>
> I wasn't talking about Anya's motivation, or the precedence of causes for
> Anya returning the Vengeance Demon status. I wasn talking about Xander's
> action looked at from outside (as a viewer). It wasn't wrong because of
> what it did, or didn't do, to Anya, it was wrong beacause it was wrong.
> It's about taking responsibility for yourself and your actions.
>
> I had a very similar discussion on the group, back in the day, about Buffy
> playing 'bobbing for tonsils' with a cross on that female vampire in When
> She Was Bad. I consider torture to be wrong, and it doesn't become okay
> just becasue Buffy is doing it to a vampire.
>
> I'm not a big fan of 'this is worng, except if womeone we like does it to
> someone we don't like'.
>
> (Oh, and Anya is responsible for returning to being a Vengeance Demon.
> Xander's actions do not excuse her from being responsible for her own
> decisions)

I think I mostly agree with that. I don't think the walk down the aisle
especially hurt Anya for the public humiliation of it - she seemed pretty
oblivious - wandering that direction for no particular reason. But the
impression on the people seeing it would be extremely anti-Xander. In large
part justified. If you're going to cause that kind of trouble than you
should face the consequences.

OBS

On Feb 9, 10:46 pm, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
wrote:

> I wasn't talking about Anya's motivation, or the precedence of causes for
> Anya returning the Vengeance Demon status. I wasn talking about Xander's
> action looked at from outside (as a viewer). It wasn't wrong because of
> what it did, or didn't do, to Anya, it was wrong beacause it was wrong.
> It's about taking responsibility for yourself and your actions.

Sure. We're addressing different questions, then.

-AOQ

On Feb 10, 6:37 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:d7062edb-e781-4213-a9fe-14724b93719d@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 1, 11:19 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
> >> > our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")
>
> >> I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally
> >> equivalent
> >> or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that relationships
> >> make
> >> people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's one
> >> of
> >> the good parts.
>
> > Well of course she thinks they're comparable, given that she's
> > comparing them.
>
> Of course. Just not in degree or as moral equivalents. The comparison is
> that both are examples (personally known by Buffy and Dawn) of relationships
> making people act badly. The greater conversation is Dawn asking Buffy why
> people bother with relationships when they cause so much trouble.

That's not the way I read the line. That's the overall thrust of the
scene, sure, but in this particular moment, she's brushing off Buffy's
attempt to explain her tolerance for Spike away with "he has a soul."
So she argues that Xander had a soul, and he did an awful bad
shatteringly hurtful thing to the person he claimed to love just like
unsouled Spike did. They're not necessarily moral equivalents, but
they're compared because they're being categorized the same way.

> Anya's burden comes a different way. Plus she is being used as the object
> lesson for the classic feminist position that a woman shouldn't define
> herself solely through her man.

Well, she did try hating all men and defining herself largely
professionally, and that only had a limited shelf life too.

> >> I can't deny that the conclusion of this episode hit an awful lot of
> >> people
> >> very negatively. From a meta perspective of what's good for sustaining
> >> the
> >> popularity of the series, then I'd agree that Hell's Bells was pretty
> >> much a
> >> disaster. I'm at a loss how to respond to that since this episode still
> >> thrills me.
>
> > For what it's worth, I sympathize with your plight as much as I
> > disagree with it. There are individual shows in this and other series
> > that I appreciate, yet people insist on failing to notice their good
> > qualities, their criticisms often missing the (obvious) point
> > entirely. When the near-universal consensus on a quality episode is
> > that said episode is awful, it's infuriating, and I try not to get
> > infuriated by such things. Of course, the difference is that I'm the
> > one who's right, but in either case, one can take comfort in the fact
> > that the show is what it is, for better or for worse. "Hell's Bells"
> > will forever be preserved as an uncontestable part of the series
> > _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_, for each new viewer to form their own
> > judgments. (Note to people who regularly use the phrase "personal
> > canon": please shut the **** up.)
>
> Well, at least the ones hating Xander are implicitly accepting the canon, if
> not sympathizing with his plight. Perhaps they can take solace in Xander
> and Anya eventually making up with each other at least some.
>
> (Incidentally, I like the Ferengi stories on DS9 too. Hee.)

Well, just because they're an embarrassment to the series doesn't mean
one can't have taste. Ferengi episodes at least know where they
stand; there's not an expectation that they won't be cartoonish. If
anyone cares, that comment was actually brought on by thinking of an
episode called "Resurrection" - remembering episodes by name isn't
terribly important to this discussion, so I won't summarize the plot -
which is not a timeless masterpiece by any means, but which is full of
intriguing ideas and has one of the very few realistic takes on
romance anywhere on DS9. Yet people apparently take it for granted
that it's not only "boring," but that it's one of the worst episodes
of the series, one that should always be skipped. It's silly to say,
but I occassionally get the desire to yell incoherently at these
people over a message board.

-AOQ

On Feb 10, 7:17 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 6:37 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:d7062edb-e781-4213-a9fe-14724b93719d@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > On Feb 1, 11:19 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> > >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> > >> messagenews:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >> > Yet whether it's on screen (Dawn comparing Xander to
> > >> > our favorite rapist vampire in "Him")
>
> > >> I don't see any indication that Dawn considered the two morally
> > >> equivalent
> > >> or comparable in degree. She was just pointing out that relationships
> > >> make
> > >> people lie and act stupid. I'm not terribly fond of Him, but that's one
> > >> of
> > >> the good parts.
>
> > > Well of course she thinks they're comparable, given that she's
> > > comparing them.
>
> > Of course. Just not in degree or as moral equivalents. The comparison is
> > that both are examples (personally known by Buffy and Dawn) of relationships
> > making people act badly. The greater conversation is Dawn asking Buffy why
> > people bother with relationships when they cause so much trouble.
>
> That's not the way I read the line. That's the overall thrust of the
> scene, sure, but in this particular moment, she's brushing off Buffy's
> attempt to explain her tolerance for Spike away with "he has a soul."
> So she argues that Xander had a soul, and he did an awful bad
> shatteringly hurtful thing to the person he claimed to love just like
> unsouled Spike did. They're not necessarily moral equivalents, but
> they're compared because they're being categorized the same way.

What makes this comparison even worse is that Dawn actually had a much
better and more on-point example of the fact that having a soul
doesn't necessarily make someone a good person: Warren.

But I guess it was more important for them to downplay the attempted
rape any way they could, since they were going to hook Spike and Buffy
up by the end of the season.

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:9d05c596-8c5c-4452-af6c-1c8978c376f7@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...


>> (Incidentally, I like the Ferengi stories on DS9 too. Hee.)
>
> Well, just because they're an embarrassment to the series doesn't mean
> one can't have taste. Ferengi episodes at least know where they
> stand; there's not an expectation that they won't be cartoonish. If
> anyone cares, that comment was actually brought on by thinking of an
> episode called "Resurrection" - remembering episodes by name isn't
> terribly important to this discussion, so I won't summarize the plot -
> which is not a timeless masterpiece by any means, but which is full of
> intriguing ideas and has one of the very few realistic takes on
> romance anywhere on DS9. Yet people apparently take it for granted
> that it's not only "boring," but that it's one of the worst episodes
> of the series, one that should always be skipped. It's silly to say,
> but I occassionally get the desire to yell incoherently at these
> people over a message board.

Damn, that's S6. I only have the DVDs through S5. (Still waiting for them
to show up in a local used store. People don't seem to be unloading those
seasons. At least not when I'm around.) I only vaguely remember it. I see
it's one of the mirror universe stories, so that probably explains some of
the antipathy towards it.

OBS

On Feb 11, 12:56 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:9d05c596-8c5c-4452-af6c-1c8978c376f7@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> (Incidentally, I like the Ferengi stories on DS9 too. Hee.)
>
> > Well, just because they're an embarrassment to the series doesn't mean
> > one can't have taste. Ferengi episodes at least know where they
> > stand; there's not an expectation that they won't be cartoonish. If
> > anyone cares, that comment was actually brought on by thinking of an
> > episode called "Resurrection" - remembering episodes by name isn't
> > terribly important to this discussion, so I won't summarize the plot -
> > which is not a timeless masterpiece by any means, but which is full of
> > intriguing ideas and has one of the very few realistic takes on
> > romance anywhere on DS9. Yet people apparently take it for granted
> > that it's not only "boring," but that it's one of the worst episodes
> > of the series, one that should always be skipped. It's silly to say,
> > but I occassionally get the desire to yell incoherently at these
> > people over a message board.
>
> Damn, that's S6. I only have the DVDs through S5. (Still waiting for them
> to show up in a local used store. People don't seem to be unloading those
> seasons. At least not when I'm around.) I only vaguely remember it. I see
> it's one of the mirror universe stories, so that probably explains some of
> the antipathy towards it.

Some, but not all. It's a mirror episode, but it's the one where one
of "them" visits "us" instead of the other way around. So the whole
thing ends up being pretty low-key and doesn't really feel like a
mirror episode at all (except for the last act, which is a little
disappointing in its predictability).

-AOQ
~so now I can hope/assume that "Profit And Lace," also S6, isn't being
included in the umbrella of your appreciation of Ferengi episodes?~

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:4638479d-0a81-47e6-a76f-fe7f44cb707d@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 11, 12:56 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:9d05c596-8c5c-4452-af6c-1c8978c376f7@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> (Incidentally, I like the Ferengi stories on DS9 too. Hee.)
>>
>> > Well, just because they're an embarrassment to the series doesn't mean
>> > one can't have taste. Ferengi episodes at least know where they
>> > stand; there's not an expectation that they won't be cartoonish. If
>> > anyone cares, that comment was actually brought on by thinking of an
>> > episode called "Resurrection" - remembering episodes by name isn't
>> > terribly important to this discussion, so I won't summarize the plot -
>> > which is not a timeless masterpiece by any means, but which is full of
>> > intriguing ideas and has one of the very few realistic takes on
>> > romance anywhere on DS9. Yet people apparently take it for granted
>> > that it's not only "boring," but that it's one of the worst episodes
>> > of the series, one that should always be skipped. It's silly to say,
>> > but I occassionally get the desire to yell incoherently at these
>> > people over a message board.
>>
>> Damn, that's S6. I only have the DVDs through S5. (Still waiting for
>> them
>> to show up in a local used store. People don't seem to be unloading
>> those
>> seasons. At least not when I'm around.) I only vaguely remember it. I
>> see
>> it's one of the mirror universe stories, so that probably explains some
>> of
>> the antipathy towards it.
>
> Some, but not all. It's a mirror episode, but it's the one where one
> of "them" visits "us" instead of the other way around. So the whole
> thing ends up being pretty low-key and doesn't really feel like a
> mirror episode at all (except for the last act, which is a little
> disappointing in its predictability).
>
> -AOQ
> ~so now I can hope/assume that "Profit And Lace," also S6, isn't being
> included in the umbrella of your appreciation of Ferengi episodes?~

I just read the synopsis and I don't recognize it - though I've heard the
name bandied about. It sure sounds like the far end of farce, though I also
see how the plot builds on what came before.

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Solomon

Watching this one again reminded me of two oddities that I'd forgotten:

-In the Uncle-Rory-in-his-shorts scene, there's a Dead Kennedys logo on
Xander and Anya's kitchen memo board.

-When Xander disappears, no one ever speculates that he might have been
attacked by something Hellmouthy. Shouldn't that have been the very first
thing Willow and Buffy considered? (And it *is* what really happened,
kinda.)

> whole exercise. As has been discussed at great length, I pretty much
> hate it, because I continue to not buy Xander's decision at the end
> (or the way it leads us to the nearly un-twist-able cliché of the
> bride left sobbing at the alter). A comment that I found helpful from
> the original thread (from Michael) is that Xander's choice is
> [supposed to be] an epiphany, not a moment of panic. It doesn't play
> that way at all, though.

Assuming we're talking about his decision at the end to call off the
wedding, and not his disappearing act earlier, I agree with the epiphany
interpretation. I think it just plays out a little awkwardly because they
chose to keep it as a surprise ending. Xander wanders around looking
lost, then comes back to announce that he had an epiphany while he was
out; we aren't in his headspace when the actual epiphany occurs. Come to
think of it, this is not unlike the way Xander's pre-marital jitters have
been played for half a season now: we only see the surface stuff, which
can be easily dismissed as standard nerves, so what's *really* going on in
his head comes as a surprise when revealed. It makes sense but the
execution is not totally satisfying, even for someone like me who thinks
Xander made the right decision.

As for the perennial issue of Xander leaving Anya to deal with the wedding
guests, my perennial answer is that it wasn't his decision. After their
conversation finally petered out, it was Anya who decided to walk back
into the wedding hall, and under the circumstances Xander could hardly
accompany her. Ideally he should have *offered* to make the announcement
himself at the same time he broke the bad news to Anya, but it's
understandable that he didn't think of these details at such a traumatic
time.

> Meanwhile, I don't think that camouflaging
> Anya's part of the story by putting the decision in Xander's hands was
> the right way to play it - HB never feels like it's as much about Anya
> as Xander, and that's backwards, given that their "crimes" are far
> from equivalent.

Agreed that this is disappointing. However in a way it makes sense.
Anya hasn't yet reached a level of self-awareness that a really good
Anya-looks-back-on-her-crimes story would require. That'll come next
season. In the meantime, a more satisfying Anya-centered episode is
coming up in Entropy.

Other stuff: The human-demon prejudice and feuding is mostly weak, but I
have to admit I liked it a bit more this time around. Or at least I
noticed the weakest parts a bit less. The mass brawl, interrupted for a
minute and then quickly resumed, is mildly amusing, reminding me a bit of
certain fight scenes in _Blazing Saddles_ and _Life of Brian_. And I
enjoy Rory's little fake electrocution. The affectionate scenes between
the blushing groom and his best friends were very nice, and Anya's vows
and her reaction when Xander broke off the wedding were heart-breaking.
So there is some good stuff in this episode. But overall, I can't love
it.

Xander addresses a relative as Cousin Carol, and in Family Tara addressed
a relative as Cousin Beth. Does anyone really do this? I don't think
I've ever addressed a cousin as "Cousin [Name]", and I have a lot of 'em.

> Rating: Weak

The good parts keep it at a Decent level for me.

> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> Writer: Diego Gutierrez
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
..
> (And yes, there's a bit of
> a retcon with Buffy's parents hearing about vampires, but easily hand-
> waved away.)

The retcon annoys me not because it is a retcon, but because IMO it's not a
retcon that fits very well. The early seasons would have played out
differently if Buffy really had been institutionalized for a couple of weeks
-- most importantly, Joyce would have had to wonder if her daugher was
mentally disturbed after all, not just a rambunctious kid who had fallen in
with the wrong crowd. But yeah, it's easy enough to ignore and in the end
doesn't detract much from the episode.

Which is a great one. Pretty impressive writing debut (and last hurrah)
for Joss's assistant, isn't it? Almost every scene shines with a gloomy,
heart-rending shine. The sudden sight of Joyce alive and well is a punch
in the gut, but the scene when Buffy makes her choice and has to say
goodbye to her is even better. AOQ already sufficiently praised SMG; I'll
add that KS does a great job with Joyce's devastated reaction when she
realizes what's happened after the "goodbye." (Amongst all the
simultaneous triumph and loss, it's kind of nice that Buffy gets the
chance to say goodbye to her mother, a year after her Sunnydale death.)

Little detail I don't recall noticing before: During the scene in the
living room when Buffy explains what's been happening to her, Dawn starts
clutching Xander's arm, as if she's already afraid of losing Buffy and is
desperate to cling onto what remains of her (Jossian) family.

> Rating: Excellent

Agreed. According to my old argument that season 6 consists of an
excellent beginning and end bookending a lame middle (a scheme which I now
think is too simplistic, but which I still occasionally trot out for
argument's sake), Normal Again is the episode where the lame middle is
left behind and the excellent ending begins.

> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: James A. Contner

Love the bitter look Jonathan gets when Warren tells him that soon they'll
get everything they ever wanted. What Jonathan *really* wants now is
something he can never have: to not have been involved in a murder.

So did anyone originally think that Anya's "I wish you were never born" would
lead to a The Wish/_It's a Wonderful Life_ sort of story about a world
without Xander? I didn't.

> needed to get us there, and the jokes work just frequently enough to
> keep the viewer on board. (I like William's idea of how the Anya-
> recruiting-people sequence could be trimmed to end with a montage of
> punchlines, but then how'd they pad out the hour?)

I'm quite happy with those scenes as aired, but I must admit that
William's idea sounds like a lot of fun.

Watching recently, I realized that I've never paid enough attention to
Spike's speech to Buffy, specifically the part when he says "Something
happened to me. The way I feel. About you." Not having paid enough attention
to it until now, I don't have much to say about it, but it does feel
important that Spike is recognizing how much he's changed. He is at least
partly self-aware, which helps justify the, umm, soul-searching at the end of
Seeing Red.

It's too bad Faith and pre-soul Spike never really got the chance to bond
over their shared view of Buffy as too uptight and repressed to really
appreciate their approach to life.

I continue to be excessively amused by the way Anya grabs Willow's coffee
as she storms out of the Espresso Pump.

> Rating: Decent

Definitely Good for me, as I said last time, and I'd be willing to
talk about Excellent.

> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Michael Gershman
..
> Does the volume need to
> be turned so high up - Spike's evil becoming clear in the most stock-
> evil way, with Buffy spending so much time loudly begging him to
> stop?

Well, yes, actually, I think it does. Spike has to hit bottom in his
relationship with Buffy, and merely hurting her feelings or even trying to
kill her wouldn't cut it -- he's done that any number of times before, and
so have half the villains on earth. It wouldn't be personal enough.
(Rape is a stock-evil act, but the Spike-Buffy context here is anything
but stock.) I agree that the rape scene is extremely hard to watch (it's
probably the highest-quality scene that I frequently skip over), but
nothing else would suffice to finish off the pre-soul Spike and Buffy.

And hard to watch though it is, I don't find Buffy's part in the rape
scene physically implausible. It's not unprecedented for a vampire to
temporarily get Buffy at a disadvantage before she eventually turns the
tables and wins the fight, and in this case she's fighting an unusually
powerful vampire while hobbled by a painful injury. Nor is it emotionally
implausible. Buffy does have a personal relationship with Spike, so it
feels right to me that she's torn between fighting him physically and
begging him to stop, something she'd never do with Joe Random Vampire.
And dramatically it's *necessary* for the rape attempt to come fairly
close to success, or it might just be shrugged off.

Now that I've had a few years to assimilate the rape scene and the shock
ending, I'm able to appreciate the rest of SR as well. The bedroom scene
where Willow and Tara discuss what happened with Buffy is nice (and reminds
me a lot of After Life), and their extreme yiggles later in the living room
are adorable. I think the argument between Buffy and Xander plays out very
well, and the making-up scene near the end is almost is good (if a lot
mushier). Hey, it just occured to me that at the Bronze, when Xander
confronts Warren, he's looking for his own version of Slayer comfort food,
just like Buffy will a couple of scenes later.

Classic quote that just doesn't work in written form:

WARREN: Say good night, bitch.
BUFFY: Good night, bitch.

> Rating: Good

I say Excellent. Even the few minor problems I mentioned last time didn't
bother me as much this time.

> Additional comments on S6D5: One of the commentaries I was warned
> about was the one for "Hell's Bells." Yeesh. That may be my pick for
> worst commentary track. In particular, compare it others on the

That comment inspired me to watch the commentary track again for the first
time since the DVDs came out. It is indeed pretty weak, neither
informative nor as funny as the participants seem to think. Jokes in
commentary tracks need to be either balanced by interesting information or
else, well, funny. But there is one real bit of info: Joss apparently
wrote the Buffy-Spike conversation at the wedding.

> Adam Bush must be a good actor, at least in this particular role (I'm
> not so fond of his work as Willow in TKIM, though), given that I have
> a weird mental block that keeps me from not getting a hostile reaction
> when he shows up in featurettes and such. There's some conscious
> effort that has to go into even a routine "okay, this is not Warren,
> who is a fictional character. This is the actor who plays him, and
> does not share his personality or opinions in real life." Also, after
> months and months to get used to the idea, the notion of Amber Benson
> and Bush as a real-life couple is still hard to grasp.

IAWTPara.

> Speaking of whom, I do have to echo the question of whether the
> writers intentionally dressed Tara in unflattering outfits. The
> character isn't as attractive to me as most of the other hot chicks,
> but Benson appears just sitting in a chair in street clothes in some
> of the interviews on the bonus disc, and she is so beautiful.

No opinion on the intent there; but I would like to say that even in her
most unflattering outfits, Tara *is* as attractive to me as the other hot
chicks, and more than some.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I have to call it a *little* higher than that just for the Xander/Buffy,
> Xander/Willow, and Willow/Tara interactions (not to mention finding out
> what Willow *really* wanted to wear as "best man." I'd have given a
> whole bunch if she'd been able to do that, too...)

I was actually at a wedding once where the groom's best female friend was
part of "his" side of the wedding party, and wore a tuxedo just like the
other ushers. (IIRC she was pretty good-looking too, though not quite a
Willow.)

--Chris


__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

On Feb 12, 10:13 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

> Xander addresses a relative as Cousin Carol, and in Family Tara addressed
> a relative as Cousin Beth. Does anyone really do this? I don't think
> I've ever addressed a cousin as "Cousin [Name]", and I have a lot of 'em.

Hmm. I know I've heard it before a few times, but I don't know if any
of those times involved real life.

> That comment inspired me to watch the commentary track again for the first
> time since the DVDs came out. It is indeed pretty weak, neither
> informative nor as funny as the participants seem to think. Jokes in
> commentary tracks need to be either balanced by interesting information or
> else, well, funny. But there is one real bit of info: Joss apparently
> wrote the Buffy-Spike conversation at the wedding.

Well, I already knew that from the NG discussions - apparently the
original non-Joss version was a lot angrier - so I perhaps didn't
appreciate that tidbit of info (but an informative commentary would
have gone into detail about what he changed and how he explained it).

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:0c5f3a63-7e17-47d7-8a81-37aff6dce7a2@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...


>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"

I've fallen a bit behind. I blame the fact that a couple of
weeks ago I was so much up with the play that I even believed I had time to
reply in detail to a detailed reply of yours. Turned out that I didn't have
time to finish it in one sitting, and that that was the last opportunity I
had for any comments for two weeks. I guess I'd better defer trying to write
replies to replies until you get into the stuff I won't be rewatching and
probably won't be commenting much on (the mid section of the horrible
season).


>depiction of a nightmare-fantasy, and some painfully bad humor.

Yay for the painfully bad humour. At least any of the stuff with either
Buffy or Anya in it.

>bride left sobbing at the alter). A comment that I found helpful from
>the original thread (from Michael) is that Xander's choice is
>[supposed to be] an epiphany, not a moment of panic.

The trouble with that is that although we recognise that a person who comes
to an honest and logical decision that they do not want to marry someone
should not go through with it, even if it should happen that they don't
realise it until their wedding day, in practice when we see someone opting
out that late, we figure the odds are that Captain Logic is not steering
this tugboat. We smell Captain Fear at the wheel. There is nothing really
done to dispel that assumption, and Xander's attitude in subsequent episodes
tends to confirm it.

>Rating: Weak
Anya's vows and Spike's date and a few other funnies are enough to get this
to Decent for me. It's my 112th favourite BtVS episode, 15th best in season
6 (last year was 115th and 16th).

>Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"

>definitively say that Sunnydale is the real story. Thanks to our
>discussions afterward, I soon came to see that ambiguity as one of the
>show's greatest strengths. Buffy has no way to dodge the moment that
>the whole season has been leading up to: she has to see the easy path
>contrasted with the harder life, and say, using only her heart, "I
>choose to live."

And of course regardless of whether Sunnydale Buffy or institutional Buffy
is "real", that choice is key. The Buffy that we have been watching for the
past 6 seasons, whether that Buffy is the direct creation of Joss Whedon or
of a fictional insane girl who is herself a creation of Joss Whedon, that
Buffy chooses to live. Even if that choice is only by a doubly fictional
Buffy, reflecting the choice of a singly fictional insane Buffy to embrace
her delusion.

>Rating: Excellent

Excellent for me too. It's my 11th favourite BtVS episode, 2nd best in
season 6 (last time was 8th and 2nd)

>Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"

>I've never been a huge fan of "Entropy,"

Not surprised about that - its funny

>needed to get us there, and the jokes work just frequently enough to
>keep the viewer on board. (I like William's idea of how the Anya-
>recruiting-people sequence could be trimmed to end with a montage of
>punchlines, but then how'd they pad out the hour?)

Wouldn't work - the main point of the of those gags is the dedication and
desperation with which which Anya tries to set up those wishes, not just her
ultimate failure in each case.


>Rating: Decent
Good for me. It sets up Seeing Red perfectly. All the relationships are
breaking down, except one, with Willow and Tara getting back together. But
we know there's always more entropy to go around (if the 2nd Law of
Thermodynamics is anything to go by). It's my 46th favourite BtVS episode,
4th best in season 6 (last time was 52nd and 3rd)

>Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"

>One thing that jumped out at me is an indication of what kind of
>series this is. We've just gone through an episode that tends to be,
>shall we say, on the dark side, including some brutal acts of
>violence. Then we have a big cathartic fight that tilts the pendulum
>back to fantasy with Buffy smashing the villain's "balls..." and then he
>takes off with a freakin' jet-pack. It's so amazingly silly that what
>can you do but say 'oh, come on?!" I don't know why I didn't
>appreciate it, but even in an episode like this, BTVS can turn die-
>laughing hilarious on a dime, and then turn back to brutality for the
>ending just as quickly.

>There's a lot to like about the way the pieces of the season snap
>together for its climax, and I appreciate the craft in the way Spike
>is forced to confront head-on how hopeless his predicament is, the way
>the episode explores how grounded in humanity Warren's evil is, and
>the excellent B/X exchanges. But does everything have to be so
>extreme and unpleasant to watch (I don't find dark or depressing
>things to necessarily be unpleasant viewing, but parts of SR are - the
>rape attempt more so than the death scene)? Does the volume need to
>be turned so high up - Spike's evil becoming clear in the most stock-
>evil way, with Buffy spending so much time loudly begging him to
>stop? Do characters always need to be killed off within a day of
>becoming their very happiest? (Apparently so, if you're Joss.) All
>in all, of all the episodes in the series, including the ones I hate,
>"Seeing Red" is the hardest one for me to watch. As I'm sure you can
>tell, I haven't quite figured out whether or not that's a good thing,
>but just like last time, I'm leaning towards "mostly."
>Rating: Good

Good for me too. I'm in no doubt that I think the balance of tragedy and the
absurd is a good thing, and that the way the melodrama is turned up in the
rape scene and in the emphasis of making Willow and Tara as happy as
possible before the tragedy is a bad thing, but not significant enough to be
a fatal flaw. It is important too that the death of Tara be in such a random
and mundane manner to fit in with the theme of mundanity this season. It's
my 62nd favourite BtVS, 6th best in season 6 (last year was 66th and 7th).


--
Apteryx

On Feb 15, 4:19 am, "Apteryx" <apte...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> I've fallen a bit behind. I blame the fact that a couple of
> weeks ago I was so much up with the play that I even believed I had time to
> reply in detail to a detailed reply of yours. Turned out that I didn't have
> time to finish it in one sitting, and that that was the last opportunity I
> had for any comments for two weeks. I guess I'd better defer trying to write
> replies to replies until you get into the stuff I won't be rewatching and
> probably won't be commenting much on (the mid section of the horrible
> season).

I, for one, welcome any thread necromancy at that time.

> >bride left sobbing at the alter). A comment that I found helpful from
> >the original thread (from Michael) is that Xander's choice is
> >[supposed to be] an epiphany, not a moment of panic.
>
> The trouble with that is that although we recognise that a person who comes
> to an honest and logical decision that they do not want to marry someone
> should not go through with it, even if it should happen that they don't
> realise it until their wedding day, in practice when we see someone opting
> out that late, we figure the odds are that Captain Logic is not steering
> this tugboat. We smell Captain Fear at the wheel. There is nothing really
> done to dispel that assumption, and Xander's attitude in subsequent episodes
> tends to confirm it.

I don't have anything to add to that, but it's very entertainingly
stated.

-AOQ