What treaties apply to the use of nuclear propulsion in space?
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"James Nicoll" <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fo7cpc$57a$1@reader2.panix.com...
> What treaties apply to the use of nuclear propulsion in space?

google 'What treaties apply to the use of nuclear propulsion in space?'

James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
> What treaties apply to the use of nuclear propulsion in space?

The Partial Test Ban Treaty (PTBT). It not only bans nuclear propulsion,
but any nuclear explosions in the atmosphere or outer space. Although
reading about it now, it looks like it only bans *tests*. Theoretically, if
you knew your Orion spacecraft worked you could let it rip operationally.

The Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) bans all nuclear
explosions for any reason, anywhere. But it hasn't been ratified yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_Test_Ban_Treaty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Test_Ban_Treaty

.... ...
Remus Shepherd <remus@panix.com>
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Remus Shepherd <remus@panix.com> wrote:
> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>> What treaties apply to the use of nuclear propulsion in space?
>
> The Partial Test Ban Treaty (PTBT). It not only bans nuclear propulsion,
> but any nuclear explosions in the atmosphere or outer space. Although
> reading about it now, it looks like it only bans *tests*. Theoretically, if
> you knew your Orion spacecraft worked you could let it rip operationally.
>
> The Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) bans all nuclear
> explosions for any reason, anywhere. But it hasn't been ratified yet.

In that case it logically follows that, in order to be legal, you merely
need to test your Orion spacecraft underground. Certainly not the most
convenient way, but it's just engineering.

Is it against the PTBT to conduct nuclear tests in the atmospheres of
*other* planets?

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

In article <fo7vrp$sk1$3@reader2.panix.com>, remus@panix.com says...
> The Partial Test Ban Treaty (PTBT). It not only bans nuclear propulsion,
> but any nuclear explosions in the atmosphere or outer space. Although
> reading about it now, it looks like it only bans *tests*. Theoretically, if
> you knew your Orion spacecraft worked you could let it rip operationally.
>

No as the treaty states any nuclear explosion.

But if a country wants to get out of the treaty all they need to do is
give three months warning.

> Is it against the PTBT to conduct nuclear tests in the atmospheres of
> *other* planets?

Yes: http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH454.txt
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Each of the Parties to this Treaty undertakes to prohibit, to
prevent,
and not to carry out any nuclear weapon test explosion, or any other
nuclear explosion, at any place under its jurisdiction or control:

(a) in the atmosphere; beyond its limits, including outer space;
or
under water, including territorial waters or high seas; or
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Beyond limits of the atmosphere" includes the entire Universe. This
treaty prohibits nuclear explosions even in the Sun.

ilya2@rcn.com writes:

>> Is it against the PTBT to conduct nuclear tests in the atmospheres of
>> *other* planets?
>
> Yes: http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH454.txt
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 1. Each of the Parties to this Treaty undertakes to prohibit, to
> prevent, and not to carry out any nuclear weapon test explosion, or
> any other nuclear explosion, at any place under its jurisdiction or
> control:
>
> (a) in the atmosphere; beyond its limits, including outer space;
> or under water, including territorial waters or high seas;
> or ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Beyond limits of the atmosphere" includes the entire Universe. This
> treaty prohibits nuclear explosions even in the Sun.

Actually it doesn't, since the sun is neither under the juristiction
or control of any of the signatories.

On Feb 5, 10:01 am, Peter Bruells <user...@rogue.de> wrote:
> il...@rcn.com writes:
> >> Is it against the PTBT to conduct nuclear tests in the atmospheres of
> >> *other* planets?
>
> > Yes:http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH454.txt
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-------------------------
> > 1. Each of the Parties to this Treaty undertakes to prohibit, to
> > prevent, and not to carry out any nuclear weapon test explosion, or
> > any other nuclear explosion, at any place under its jurisdiction or
> > control:
>
> >     (a) in the atmosphere; beyond its limits, including outer space;
> > or under water, including territorial waters or high seas;
> > or ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-------------------------
>
> > "Beyond limits of the atmosphere" includes the entire Universe. This
> > treaty prohibits nuclear explosions even in the Sun.
>
> Actually it doesn't, since the sun is neither under the juristiction
> or control of any of the signatories.- Hide quoted text -

Neither is outer space

ilya2@rcn.com writes:

> On Feb 5, 10:01*am, Peter Bruells <user...@rogue.de> wrote:
>> il...@rcn.com writes:
>> >> Is it against the PTBT to conduct nuclear tests in the atmospheres of
>> >> *other* planets?
>>
>> > Yes:http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH454.txt
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-------------------------
>> > 1. Each of the Parties to this Treaty undertakes to prohibit, to
>> > prevent, and not to carry out any nuclear weapon test explosion, or
>> > any other nuclear explosion, at any place under its jurisdiction or
>> > control:
>>
>> > * * (a) in the atmosphere; beyond its limits, including outer space;
>> > or under water, including territorial waters or high seas;
>> > or ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-------------------------
>>
>> > "Beyond limits of the atmosphere" includes the entire Universe. This
>> > treaty prohibits nuclear explosions even in the Sun.
>>
>> Actually it doesn't, since the sun is neither under the juristiction
>> or control of any of the signatories.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Neither is outer space

But the nuclear devices and their launch sites are.

On Feb 5, 10:38 am, Peter Bruells <user...@rogue.de> wrote:
> il...@rcn.com writes:
> > On Feb 5, 10:01 am, Peter Bruells <user...@rogue.de> wrote:
> >> il...@rcn.com writes:
> >> >> Is it against the PTBT to conduct nuclear tests in the atmospheres of
> >> >> *other* planets?
>
> >> > Yes:http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH454.txt
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­-------------------------
> >> > 1. Each of the Parties to this Treaty undertakes to prohibit, to
> >> > prevent, and not to carry out any nuclear weapon test explosion, or
> >> > any other nuclear explosion, at any place under its jurisdiction or
> >> > control:
>
> >> >     (a) in the atmosphere; beyond its limits, including outer space;
> >> > or under water, including territorial waters or high seas;
> >> > or ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­-------------------------
>
> >> > "Beyond limits of the atmosphere" includes the entire Universe. This
> >> > treaty prohibits nuclear explosions even in the Sun.
>
> >> Actually it doesn't, since the sun is neither under the juristiction
> >> or control of any of the signatories.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > Neither is outer space
>
> But the nuclear devices and their launch sites are.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So the treaty is poorly phrased. In one sentence it specifies "at any
place under [Treaty's signatory's] jurisdiction or control" and in the
next sentence it says "including outer space". The only interpretation
that makes sense is that if you can place a nuclear device at some
location in outer space, than that location is by definition under
your control.

"Peter Bruells" <usernet@rogue.de> wrote in message
news:m23as7e7mj.fsf@rogue.de...
> ilya2@rcn.com writes:
>
>> On Feb 5, 10:01 am, Peter Bruells <user...@rogue.de> wrote:
>>> il...@rcn.com writes:
>>> >> Is it against the PTBT to conduct nuclear tests in the atmospheres of
>>> >> *other* planets?
>>>
>>> > Yes:http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH454.txt
>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-------------------------
>>> > 1. Each of the Parties to this Treaty undertakes to prohibit, to
>>> > prevent, and not to carry out any nuclear weapon test explosion, or
>>> > any other nuclear explosion, at any place under its jurisdiction or
>>> > control:
>>>
>>> > (a) in the atmosphere; beyond its limits, including outer space;
>>> > or under water, including territorial waters or high seas;
>>> > or ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-------------------------
>>>
>>> > "Beyond limits of the atmosphere" includes the entire Universe. This
>>> > treaty prohibits nuclear explosions even in the Sun.
>>>
>>> Actually it doesn't, since the sun is neither under the juristiction
>>> or control of any of the signatories.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> Neither is outer space
>
> But the nuclear devices and their launch sites are.

Send in the Marines!
Of course, they'll have to land at night, so they don't burn up.

ilya2@rcn.com writes:

> So the treaty is poorly phrased. In one sentence it specifies "at
> any place under [Treaty's signatory's] jurisdiction or control" and
> in the next sentence it says "including outer space". The only
> interpretation that makes sense is that if you can place a nuclear
> device at some location in outer space, than that location is by
> definition under your control.

I think that's a very good definition of "under control". :-)

Remus Shepherd <remus@panix.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>> What treaties apply to the use of nuclear propulsion in space?
>
> The Partial Test Ban Treaty (PTBT). It not only bans nuclear propulsion,

Nuclear propulsion in general? Including all of these?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_propulsion

-xx- Damien X-)

"Remus Shepherd" <remus@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fo7vrp$sk1$3@reader2.panix.com...
> James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
>> What treaties apply to the use of nuclear propulsion in space?
>
> The Partial Test Ban Treaty (PTBT). It not only bans nuclear
> propulsion,
> but any nuclear explosions in the atmosphere or outer space. Although

The TBTs are quite specific in banning 'explosions.' Thus they clearly
include in the ban pulse rockets like the Orion, but not tests or operation
of contained fission or fusion reactors like NERVA.

Fred

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:59:40 +0000 (UTC), jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll)
wrote:

> What treaties apply to the use of nuclear propulsion in space?

Orion drives are Right Out under the atmospheric test ban treaty (even if
you don't light them up until you're in deep space) and probably the Outer
Space Treaty.

I don't believe that there are any treaties that have anything specific to
say about nuclear-thermal or nuclear-electric propulsion. The Outer Space
Treaty and the Test Ban Treaties, in particular, do *not* prohibit nuclear
*reactors*, even very powerful reactors directly coupled to rockets, no
matter how many times that claim is made by people whose brains shut down
immediately after seeing the word "nuclear".


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