A reminder: These threads care. As one human being to another. Just
kidding.

ANGEL
Season Three, Episode 20: "A New World"
Writer: Jeffrey Bell
Director: Tim Minear

I complained when the series' main agenda, at least for awhile, was
the relationship between Angel and Cordelia. Now, all the apocolpyses
and such are next season, and the show's most important ongoing issue
is the relationship between Angel and Connor. And it's a strong
enough story to carry the arc; it's been well established this season
how much it means to our hero, and it's the most I've ever empathized
with him and wanted him to succeed. From [our] Stephen: "One theory
I've heard is that Connor is, in many ways, the opposite of Buffy &
Co. On that show, our teenagers often have to cope with adults
apparently being willfully stupid or blind, failing to understand them
and their concerns, and generally being obtuse. Here it's Angel, the
adult, who's our protagonist - and it's his turn to be baffled by the
actions and feelings of his teenage son." My biggest complaint the
first time was that I wasn't sure Connor held together as a character
rather than a bunch of clashing concepts, but having a better sense of
his personality seems to have been sufficient to remedy that worry.
Rating: Good


Season Three, Episode 21: "Benediction"
Writer: Tim Minear
Director: Tim Minear

One of the first things I think about when calling this episode to
memory is the sound-effect-enhanced vision and the cut to how everyone
else sees Cordy. I don't know exactly why that bit tickles me so
much, but there ya go. I'm also, though, tickled by pretty damn near
everything else about "Benediction." It's one of those confluences
like "Forgiving" (and perhaps more so than "Tomorrow," curiously), as
Lilah gauges Wesley's reaction to Justine's peril while Angel and
Connor are discovering the infectious joy of fighting as a team. I
nominated those five minutes or so as among my favorites of the series
originally, and they still are. (I also managed to get myself to call
Connor "Steven" through the whole review, even though I figured he'd
change back since no one else ever used that name.) That thing I said
about ANW about caring more than anything else about Angel's quest to
win Connor back? Well, repeat it here with more emphasis. Meanwhile,
Holtz makes his last appearance, although he'll cast a shadow over
large parts of S4. It takes a certain kind of man to admit to himself
that he's left justice behind a long time ago, and still recognize the
power of love to be rather brilliantly perverted into a weapon. The
doublethink in which Holtz really does love his son, but it doesn't
stop him from seeing him primarily as an instrument of vengeance kept
me guessing long enough to lead to yet another very memorable episode
closing in a string of them.
Rating: Excellent


Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
Writer: David Greenwalt
Director: David Greenwalt

This one is still divided between stuff I like and stuff I don't, but
the former seems more important now. Watching the inevitability of
the way things will fall apart during the happy moments is - and
originally was, too - similar to the experience of re-watching "Sleep
Tight." I'm in the right mood to appreciate it. My other issue was
with the Angel/Cordelia non-romance that other characters have to
shove them into, but luckily, that's actually mostly submerged in the
ascension storyline. As mentioned, at this point many fans seem to
have understood that not all was as it seemed, and that's just
prominent enough to partially mitigate some of the cheesy excesses of
that. (And as discussed elsewhere, the S4 twist doesn't demean the
more moving moments at all either, for me.) The show also deceived me
in a good way with Wes, giving me one read on where his head's at that
will turn out, in "Deep Down," to have only been part of the
situation. Wonder if there was ever any serious consideration of
giving the Lorne character a rest for awhile? As nasty of a trick as
it is, I guess I do appreciate a well-done end-of-season cliffhanger,
and this is a pretty good one, particularly with the montage. I still
get a bit caught up in how incredibly cruel Connor is with his
vengeance, and hearing Angel's proclamations of love as the lid closes
on him definitely gets to me.
Rating: Excellent (up from Good)


Additional comments on S3D6: Anyone note the "screen tests" among the
DVD features? They're fun little bits with Acker and Kartheiser
joining the others in scenes that don't fit anywhere in the series
continuity, apparently so everyone can get a sense of what it'll be
like playing/playing opposite/writing for/filming the new characters.
Do all shows do this?

Both David and Tim basically left the show after S3, and that's a hell
of a blow to endure and keep on ticking. I don't think ATS suffered
as much as one might fear. But in any case, even with the
uncharacteristic (for the Whedonverse) cliffhanger, every season feels
very different.

Numerically, Season Three isn't that far a margin ahead of Season One
(it's ahead of all BTVS years so far barring S3, although I haven't re-
calculated for S6 yet), but it feels like a much stronger year. Even
the missteps early are missteps with a purpose in mind, and after
"Loyalty," well, I've gushed before, but it'd be hard to exaggerate
how much I love this period of the show. It feels the most _Angel_-
like because the whole team, as Chris has pointed out, is in place:
Fred has arrived, Cordy hasn't left (or turned amnesiac/possessed)
yet, Lorne moves in, and teen-Connor drops in at the end of the year.
When asked to name my favorite year of the series, there's not even a
hesitation from me.

Where did everybody go?

-AOQ

> Season Three, Episode 21: "Benediction"

> power of love to be rather brilliantly perverted into a weapon. The
> doublethink in which Holtz really does love his son, but it doesn't

since i dont feel holtz ever loved connor
im not conflicted about holtzs reappearence and gratefully final demise

i dont dislike the actor or the protrayal
i just dislike the character

an importance religious concept that they use in the series
is that a soul gives you the ability to make moral choices
the details are left vague but creatures with souls have empathy
amd they can make decisions against their desires and best interests
if it helps someone else

so when a human chooses to be evil it is worse than a demon doing the same
because a human has to kill something inside themselves
and they also pervert what they feel to really get to the horrors inside others

so holtz had a choice
he had a choice multiple times
and everytime he chose evil in full knowledge of that it was evil
and what the consequences would be

ding dong the holtz is dead
which old holtz
the wicked holtz
ding dong the wicked holtz is dead

i lose all sympathy for connor next year
when he chooses to help murder an innocent woman
knowing full well it is murder
and that he is abetting in evil

> Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"

> situation. Wonder if there was ever any serious consideration of
> giving the Lorne character a rest for awhile? As nasty of a trick as

lorne is the empathic center of the series
all hail lorne
all hail lorne

we know that lorne comes from a world without (acoustic) beauty
to a world full of beauty
and that he drinks alot except under jasmines thrall

i infer that he is one of those people who sees
what a beautiful world this could be
but that its filled with busy little humans rushing in their busy lifes
who dont bother to stop appreciate what they have
and not does he see that
he actually feels all the misery around him all the time
(being an empath demon)

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:6659dcab-5eab-4788-a2e7-6522c9e759d1@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

> ANGEL
> Season Three, Episode 20: "A New World"

> I complained when the series' main agenda, at least for awhile, was
> the relationship between Angel and Cordelia. Now, all the apocolpyses
> and such are next season, and the show's most important ongoing issue
> is the relationship between Angel and Connor. And it's a strong
> enough story to carry the arc;

For now.


> it's been well established this season
> how much it means to our hero, and it's the most I've ever empathized
> with him and wanted him to succeed.

Wanting to save Darla in S2 mattered to me too.


> From [our] Stephen: "One theory
> I've heard is that Connor is, in many ways, the opposite of Buffy &
> Co. On that show, our teenagers often have to cope with adults
> apparently being willfully stupid or blind, failing to understand them
> and their concerns, and generally being obtuse. Here it's Angel, the
> adult, who's our protagonist - and it's his turn to be baffled by the
> actions and feelings of his teenage son."

I wonder how much we're supposed to empathize with both Angel and Connor.
We can certainly see how Angel is baffled by the teenager. But can we
perhaps perceive on the teenage level too? In other words, Angel, the
adult, still can be obtuse and non-understanding - making the mistakes
adults make. And it surely is adults that screw Connor up. Or to put it
yet another way, is Connor someone for teens to relate to and attract them
to the show? I've wondered sometimes what they had in mind making him such
a major cast character. But the circumstances of his creation plus next
year's exploitation by Cordy dooms him to be the screwed up kid headed for a
bad end.

I muse about that for a couple of reasons. Angel may be the protagonist -
the star - but for close to two years (depending on when you think his
influence starts in S3) the series revolves around Connor nearly as much as
Angel. Perhaps more in the sense that he is so often the object of big
events. I enjoy it a lot through the end of this season, but then it wears.
Not just because of the characterization, but because it feels like Angel is
diminished as a character too long.

Anyway, secondly, with Connor such a big part himself, I wonder if the
comparison to Buffy et al might also be that they cope and he doesn't.
Their's is a story of growth. His of being beaten down.


> My biggest complaint the
> first time was that I wasn't sure Connor held together as a character
> rather than a bunch of clashing concepts, but having a better sense of
> his personality seems to have been sufficient to remedy that worry.

I still notice that they don't really sustain Connor's semi-feral nature
featured in this episode. I'd probably mind that more if the story was
really about that. But it's not, so it's OK I think to get past that
quickly without really addressing the transition. In the meantime it's
quite fun to watch The Destroyer in the wild. I do wonder, though, how
Connor found Holtz.

> Rating: Good

I like the episode more than that because I get off on the excitement and
tension of it. The stylized slo-mo opening with the stakes spiraling
through the air works really well for me. And it's so-o-o cool the way
Connor jumps on the bus. The junkie culture scenes work surprisingly well -
one of AtS's better dabblings at traditional underbelly of the city
depictions (which they don't always do very well). That also brings out the
best "father" scene with Angel trying to defuse the trouble his son has
gotten into. And the fantastic Wesley/Lilah scene. When she closes with,
"Don't pretend you're too good to work for us," I almost believe her myself.
Imagine what Wesley thinks. There's some good humor with Mistress Meerna
temporal shifting here and there and Groo frozen in place guarding the
portal. And so on. The episode pretty much keeps me going throughout.

But in truth, there's also not all that much to it. Connor's back. Hates
dad. Maybe gets some doubt introduced. But meets up with Holtz at the end.
A lot more noise than content, though the running about does give the
audience and characters some time to absorb the simple fact of a teenage
Connor, now named Steven and popularly called the Destroyer. It's the
implications of the episode more so than the action that matters.
Objectively I think that adds up to a Good rating. And a mild yearning to
have seen Connor just run wild for a while more.



> Season Three, Episode 21: "Benediction"
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
>
> One of the first things I think about when calling this episode to
> memory is the sound-effect-enhanced vision and the cut to how everyone
> else sees Cordy. I don't know exactly why that bit tickles me so
> much, but there ya go. I'm also, though, tickled by pretty damn near
> everything else about "Benediction." It's one of those confluences
> like "Forgiving" (and perhaps more so than "Tomorrow," curiously),

Oh, absolutely. This is, IMO, the climax of this season's story - Holtz's
final killing blow. Tomorrow is part aftermath and part looking ahead.


> as
> Lilah gauges Wesley's reaction to Justine's peril while Angel and
> Connor are discovering the infectious joy of fighting as a team. I
> nominated those five minutes or so as among my favorites of the series
> originally, and they still are.

The praise is well earned. It's a beautifully constructed scene that brings
everyone together in one shared moment where each observes something
different - something critical - and the conversations themselves are about
seeing what has been hidden. Even Cordy turns out to have watched in her
vision world. You mention the infectious joy of fighting as a team - a
worthy observation - but I think it is superseded by the joy of them playing
in the alley after when for just a moment - a rare moment as it turns out -
they really feel like father and son. A rare moment serving as the final
thing to be observed - by the other Dad. Holtz stepping out of the shadows
to cap that sequence is so disturbing, and suggests that he has made the
most important observation and most commands the situation - as proves to be
true in subsequent events.

Tim Minear can write - even if he professes not to deal with big themes and
such. This is some of his best.


> (I also managed to get myself to call
> Connor "Steven" through the whole review, even though I figured he'd
> change back since no one else ever used that name.)

Steven's a nice name. And there is an Irish version - Steafan. Angel
needn't have worried.


> That thing I said
> about ANW about caring more than anything else about Angel's quest to
> win Connor back? Well, repeat it here with more emphasis. Meanwhile,
> Holtz makes his last appearance, although he'll cast a shadow over
> large parts of S4. It takes a certain kind of man to admit to himself
> that he's left justice behind a long time ago, and still recognize the
> power of love to be rather brilliantly perverted into a weapon. The
> doublethink in which Holtz really does love his son, but it doesn't
> stop him from seeing him primarily as an instrument of vengeance kept
> me guessing long enough to lead to yet another very memorable episode
> closing in a string of them.

Does Holtz really love Connor? I suspect he's convinced himself that he
does, which I suppose creates a kind of reality. But I think it's delusion.
He never truly sacrifices anything for Connor's benefit - never once relents
from crafting Connor into his weapon of revenge.

I don't think I was guessing exactly about his feelings and intent. It
seemed to me that he was always working his evil angle. But I sure didn't
see how he was going to do it. What a beautifully conceived and executed
stroke.

I really admire how brazenly he makes his plays too - sometimes almost
spelling out what he's doing to his victims. As he told Justine, it's not
all lies. The moment that makes me gasp is the following:

Angel: Why are you doing this.
Holtz: I thought I'd made that plain. I love my son. And this is the only
way I know to ensure that he will go on loving me.

A moment before Holtz had told Angel that he had no taste for one sort of
vengeance. If only Angel had realized that what he meant was that he wanted
so much more.

The thing that continues to tantalize me with Holtz is wondering just what
is plan and what is improvisation. Perhaps it's just always being prepared,
gently prodding the wild animal in the direction he wants, while it still
seems to run free, ready to strike the moment opportunity presents.

> Rating: Excellent

This is a great episode and pretty much seals my admiration for Holtz as my
favorite AtS big bad. (That's assuming that Darla is something else and
more than a big bad.) A very well earned Excellent.



> Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"

> This one is still divided between stuff I like and stuff I don't, but
> the former seems more important now. Watching the inevitability of
> the way things will fall apart during the happy moments is - and
> originally was, too - similar to the experience of re-watching "Sleep
> Tight." I'm in the right mood to appreciate it.

It's not so much that there's stuff I like or don't like as it is that it
feels like a hodge-podge forced together to clean up loose ends and set the
stage for next season. The show jumps around getting a little dab of
everybody, which gives me an extra laugh when Gunn and Fred are suddenly
left alone asking where everybody went. The peacefulness of the lobby then
is almost a relief.

So the flow of the episode knocks down my appreciation of it some. I don't
have much complaint about the content though. Except maybe the commando
raid at the drive-in, which seems kind of dumb. Another reason why I think
Linwood is too stupid to head a W&H office.

> My other issue was
> with the Angel/Cordelia non-romance that other characters have to
> shove them into, but luckily, that's actually mostly submerged in the
> ascension storyline.

See? They mitigate each other. Both are also blessedly brief. And it sent
Groo packing. And I can't help laughing at Cordy talking to herself. (Her
end of season bad hair seems especially annoying to me for some reason
though.) So it works out.

> As mentioned, at this point many fans seem to
> have understood that not all was as it seemed, and that's just
> prominent enough to partially mitigate some of the cheesy excesses of
> that. (And as discussed elsewhere, the S4 twist doesn't demean the
> more moving moments at all either, for me.)

The ascension struck me as so far over the top the first time that it
actually smothered Angel's opposite move a bit for me. There was a whole
lot of WTF for me at the time - which was only added to as I paused to think
about the season with a miracle birth and a talking hamburger. There had
been a touch of ludicrous to the whole year, but somehow it stayed just
short of that and somehow seemed to make sense. I definitely bought into
what was done with Cordelia - even though I can't say I truly understood it.

Now... well, the effect is weird knowing what's coming. It doesn't play the
same way now. Maybe Skip was honest back in Birthday, but he feels like a
flim flam man this time. Cordy a higher being? Yeah, right. But the odd
thing is that I kind of enjoy thinking of it as a scam now. A part of the
Jasmine game that I actually enjoy. (Better than bored Cordy in the sky
anyway.)

More important for me is that now, with the ascension not seeming quite so
momentous, I'm more aware and moved by the other big things this episode -
Connor turning on Angel and Wesley sleeping with Lilah. There's some pretty
thrilling things in this episode once you turn down the flash-bang a little.

Hell, I even appreciate more the lost chance for Cordy/Angel. This is as
close as they'll get. Knowing that makes it more poignant and makes me more
tolerant of the love tease they went for this season. (I don't consider
You're Welcome as closer, incidentally. That's sweet, but in a very wistful
way. It's too late for them then. At best they can acknowledge what might
have been.)

There's a very funny moment when Fred prods Angel with a stake to be sure
he's not perfectly happy. I was struck this time at the irony of how
thoroughly unhappy he was about to be.


> The show also deceived me
> in a good way with Wes, giving me one read on where his head's at that
> will turn out, in "Deep Down," to have only been part of the
> situation. Wonder if there was ever any serious consideration of
> giving the Lorne character a rest for awhile? As nasty of a trick as
> it is, I guess I do appreciate a well-done end-of-season cliffhanger,
> and this is a pretty good one, particularly with the montage. I still
> get a bit caught up in how incredibly cruel Connor is with his
> vengeance, and hearing Angel's proclamations of love as the lid closes
> on him definitely gets to me.
> Rating: Excellent (up from Good)

Still stuck at Good for me. But quite solidly Good.

>
>
> Additional comments on S3D6: Anyone note the "screen tests" among the
> DVD features? They're fun little bits with Acker and Kartheiser
> joining the others in scenes that don't fit anywhere in the series
> continuity, apparently so everyone can get a sense of what it'll be
> like playing/playing opposite/writing for/filming the new characters.
> Do all shows do this?

I don't know, but thanks for reminding me. I love Amy's screen test.
Elizabethan crazy talk indeed.


> Numerically, Season Three isn't that far a margin ahead of Season One
> (it's ahead of all BTVS years so far barring S3, although I haven't re-
> calculated for S6 yet), but it feels like a much stronger year. Even
> the missteps early are missteps with a purpose in mind,

Looking back it really feels that way, even if it wasn't always so clear at
the time. The season really hangs together - or at least gets put together
by the end. It's the most successful that way for me - especially since the
emotional intensity is so strong at the end. I suspect that's really why I
enjoy the cliffhanger so much. It's only partly the cliffhanging aspect.
It's more that the emotional charge continues to resonate.


> and after
> "Loyalty," well, I've gushed before, but it'd be hard to exaggerate
> how much I love this period of the show. It feels the most _Angel_-
> like because the whole team, as Chris has pointed out, is in place:
> Fred has arrived, Cordy hasn't left (or turned amnesiac/possessed)
> yet, Lorne moves in, and teen-Connor drops in at the end of the year.

I can only partly agree with that. It was an outstanding period, and is
closest to the whole team being in place. (Though Wesley isn't exactly in
place.) But I think it's a little thin on core Angel themes and behavior.
This season does a nice job of expanding upon the Gypsy curse and showing it
as Angel's natural fate....

Connor: Killing is to good for you. You don't get to die. You get to live -
forever.

But S2 is much stronger at presenting his great redemption battle - in
theme, in object (Darla) and in extremes of behavior. S2 - and somewhat
reprised in an S5 which also repeats the theme - has the character of Angel
that most thrills me. I love what's done with Wesley in S3 and S4, and even
Connor at times, and the cast in general - especially Lilah. But the core
of the series never stops being about Angel. Angel as dad just isn't at the
top of what I appreciate about the character no matter how much they hammer
the family theme.


> When asked to name my favorite year of the series, there's not even a
> hesitation from me.

S2 as a whole still stands with it to my mind - albeit not for the same
reasons. Upon reflection, I also realize that I enjoyed the side episodes
of S2 - things like Guise Will Be Guise and The Shroud of Rahmon - more so
than the side episodes of S3 - with the glorious exception of Waiting In The
Wings.


> Where did everybody go?

Heaven and and hell. Just like everybody.

OBS

On Feb 12, 10:27 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:6659dcab-5eab-4788-a2e7-6522c9e759d1@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > From [our] Stephen: "One theory
> > I've heard is that Connor is, in many ways, the opposite of Buffy &
> > Co. On that show, our teenagers often have to cope with adults
> > apparently being willfully stupid or blind, failing to understand them
> > and their concerns, and generally being obtuse. Here it's Angel, the
> > adult, who's our protagonist - and it's his turn to be baffled by the
> > actions and feelings of his teenage son."
>
> I wonder how much we're supposed to empathize with both Angel and Connor.
> We can certainly see how Angel is baffled by the teenager. But can we
> perhaps perceive on the teenage level too? In other words, Angel, the
> adult, still can be obtuse and non-understanding - making the mistakes
> adults make. And it surely is adults that screw Connor up. Or to put it
> yet another way, is Connor someone for teens to relate to and attract them
> to the show? I've wondered sometimes what they had in mind making him such
> a major cast character. But the circumstances of his creation plus next
> year's exploitation by Cordy dooms him to be the screwed up kid headed for a
> bad end.

The reason I can't see that kind of design is that in his earliest
episodes, Connor's an enigma. The show works hard to keep us in the
dark along with Angel - even when we're following Connor in ANW for
instance, we don't find out how thoroughly Holtz has shaped him until
almost the end of the episode. This is a character who starts out
from an alien position far removed from any young viewers, no matter
what issues they may have with their parents, and begins with an
entrenched desire to hurt our protagonist. So it seems pretty clear
to me that as far as We The Viewer are concerned, we're intended to
want to save him, not to identify with him.

> I muse about that for a couple of reasons. Angel may be the protagonist -
> the star - but for close to two years (depending on when you think his
> influence starts in S3) the series revolves around Connor nearly as much as
> Angel. Perhaps more in the sense that he is so often the object of big
> events. I enjoy it a lot through the end of this season, but then it wears.
> Not just because of the characterization, but because it feels like Angel is
> diminished as a character too long.

Never bothered me, because I never lose the sense that it's Angel's
show, no matter who's "central."

> Anyway, secondly, with Connor such a big part himself, I wonder if the
> comparison to Buffy et al might also be that they cope and he doesn't.
> Their's is a story of growth. His of being beaten down.

Things are... different. The best way I can think of to frame it is
that BTVS's cast members tend to have a strong sense of who they are
before this life grabs them (not always the best thing to have, in
Willow's case) - the vivid personality comes from the start. No one's
been manipulated or indoctrinated from day one to the extent that
Connor has. I think most of the conscious parallels are to make
Connor a bit of an anti-Dawn, although that doesn't lend itself to an
obvious trite moral or anything, to me.

> There's some good humor with Mistress Meerna
> temporal shifting here and there and Groo frozen in place guarding the
> portal. And so on. The episode pretty much keeps me going throughout.

Did I forget to mention Meerna? She's one of the better smartass-
mystical characters; wish the writers could always click this way when
designing side personalities.

> > as
> > Lilah gauges Wesley's reaction to Justine's peril while Angel and
> > Connor are discovering the infectious joy of fighting as a team. I
> > nominated those five minutes or so as among my favorites of the series
> > originally, and they still are.
>
> The praise is well earned. It's a beautifully constructed scene that brings
> everyone together in one shared moment where each observes something
> different - something critical - and the conversations themselves are about
> seeing what has been hidden. Even Cordy turns out to have watched in her
> vision world. You mention the infectious joy of fighting as a team - a
> worthy observation - but I think it is superseded by the joy of them playing
> in the alley after when for just a moment - a rare moment as it turns out -
> they really feel like father and son.

I mis-wrote, because that's what I was thinking of most with the
infectious joy. The alley scene is when it's just a thrill to watch.
The actors completely sell me that these characters have a connection
that can't be denied or destroyed, and is the most convincing of the
various teases that this could possibly end well. Holtz believes that
what he sees here has the potential to overcome everything that he's
quote-unquote-accomplished, unless he takes drastic action, and he's
probably right.

> Now... well, the effect is weird knowing what's coming. It doesn't play the
> same way now. Maybe Skip was honest back in Birthday, but he feels like a
> flim flam man this time. Cordy a higher being? Yeah, right. But the odd
> thing is that I kind of enjoy thinking of it as a scam now. A part of the
> Jasmine game that I actually enjoy. (Better than bored Cordy in the sky
> anyway.)

In retrospect is seems almost like it should be obvious that there's
some scam happening, but it fits because it's not much more outlandish
than anything else that happens on this show. It's pitched to play
perfectly on Cordelia's ego.

> > and after
> > "Loyalty," well, I've gushed before, but it'd be hard to exaggerate
> > how much I love this period of the show. It feels the most _Angel_-
> > like because the whole team, as Chris has pointed out, is in place:
> > Fred has arrived, Cordy hasn't left (or turned amnesiac/possessed)
> > yet, Lorne moves in, and teen-Connor drops in at the end of the year.
>
> I can only partly agree with that. It was an outstanding period, and is
> closest to the whole team being in place. (Though Wesley isn't exactly in
> place.) But I think it's a little thin on core Angel themes and behavior.
> This season does a nice job of expanding upon the Gypsy curse and showing it
> as Angel's natural fate....
>
> Connor: Killing is to good for you. You don't get to die. You get to live -
> forever.
>
> But S2 is much stronger at presenting his great redemption battle - in
> theme, in object (Darla) and in extremes of behavior. S2 - and somewhat
> reprised in an S5 which also repeats the theme - has the character of Angel
> that most thrills me. I love what's done with Wesley in S3 and S4, and even
> Connor at times, and the cast in general - especially Lilah. But the core
> of the series never stops being about Angel. Angel as dad just isn't at the
> top of what I appreciate about the character no matter how much they hammer
> the family theme.

The thing abut S2, though, is that as the beige period goes on, Angel
becomes harder for me to understand in an empathize-able way. We
talked about it some, but I never entirely grasped the flow there,
between episodes especially. I like a lot of the Darla arc, of
course, but I feel like arguing, or at least suggesting, that it
doesn't play to all of Angel's strengths as a character either. After
all, Angel's arc in S2 is a story of defeat (and moving on); one of
the climaxes is when he gives up completely. The found family thing
may get repetitious when one watches lots of ME shows, but the
relationships with the people they love are a big part of their
protagonists' personalities.

I wish Season Two held up better for me, because of how good its best
parts are. Recently one of the threads on Whedonesque, about a
passing comment from Joss suggesting that _Dollhouse_ would be his
most "morally ambiguous" show, led to everyone agreeing that they
wanted to see lots more moments like "that wasn't Angel... wasn't
Angelus either..."

Which brings up another memory which I've told in pieces before but
never concisely. This is probably a result of simply spending a lot
of time with the show more than a reflection of any particular
episode. But when Angel briefly went evil in "Eternity," it was one
of the highlights for me not only of a bland episode, but of the whole
(admittedly not stellar) series thus far. Much like back in
Sunnydale, Angel seemed almost too good as a villain to waste as a
hero. As Season Two of ATS constantly teased me with having him lose
his soul, I kinda wanted it to happen, although I certainly
appreciated them doing something murkier instead, and letting the
character have a nasty streak that his soul only theoretically keeps
in check. By the time the show got around to S3 and the Excellent
Trilogy, my reaction to "this isn't Angelus talking to you, it's me,
Angel," was "well, I'm glad. Angel's ten times more interesting than
Angelus."

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:0a4ace79-ff76-473d-976d-5b073cd7a025@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 12, 10:27 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:6659dcab-5eab-4788-a2e7-6522c9e759d1@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > From [our] Stephen: "One theory
>> > I've heard is that Connor is, in many ways, the opposite of Buffy &
>> > Co. On that show, our teenagers often have to cope with adults
>> > apparently being willfully stupid or blind, failing to understand them
>> > and their concerns, and generally being obtuse. Here it's Angel, the
>> > adult, who's our protagonist - and it's his turn to be baffled by the
>> > actions and feelings of his teenage son."
>>
>> I wonder how much we're supposed to empathize with both Angel and Connor.
>> We can certainly see how Angel is baffled by the teenager. But can we
>> perhaps perceive on the teenage level too? In other words, Angel, the
>> adult, still can be obtuse and non-understanding - making the mistakes
>> adults make. And it surely is adults that screw Connor up. Or to put it
>> yet another way, is Connor someone for teens to relate to and attract
>> them
>> to the show? I've wondered sometimes what they had in mind making him
>> such
>> a major cast character. But the circumstances of his creation plus next
>> year's exploitation by Cordy dooms him to be the screwed up kid headed
>> for a
>> bad end.
>
> The reason I can't see that kind of design is that in his earliest
> episodes, Connor's an enigma. The show works hard to keep us in the
> dark along with Angel - even when we're following Connor in ANW for
> instance, we don't find out how thoroughly Holtz has shaped him until
> almost the end of the episode. This is a character who starts out
> from an alien position far removed from any young viewers, no matter
> what issues they may have with their parents, and begins with an
> entrenched desire to hurt our protagonist. So it seems pretty clear
> to me that as far as We The Viewer are concerned, we're intended to
> want to save him, not to identify with him.

Admittedly I was thinking more of the decision to keep him as a major S4
character than how he's used at the end of S3. And, even if they did have
something like that in mind, the story foundation couldn't accommodate it.
However, there is also this from Benediction.

Fred: Wait a minute. Wow. Something here is pretty (looks up see Connor
standing in front of her) hot.

I don't think that's a line they'd use if they didn't think there was
potential as a heartthrob.


>> I muse about that for a couple of reasons. Angel may be the
>> protagonist -
>> the star - but for close to two years (depending on when you think his
>> influence starts in S3) the series revolves around Connor nearly as much
>> as
>> Angel. Perhaps more in the sense that he is so often the object of big
>> events. I enjoy it a lot through the end of this season, but then it
>> wears.
>> Not just because of the characterization, but because it feels like Angel
>> is
>> diminished as a character too long.
>
> Never bothered me, because I never lose the sense that it's Angel's
> show, no matter who's "central."

Oh, they keep turning the light onto Angel and sometimes even go into
special Angel territory like with Orpheus. It's not that it stops being
Angel's show. But to me the character is still side tracked and commonly
not driving the story, which sure isn't Connor's problem. Hell, Connor even
gets to be the one to kill Jasmine. I don't want to over emphasize this -
I've got bigger issues with S4 than that. But the season does feel to me
like it took the wrong exit somewhere and got lost.


>> Anyway, secondly, with Connor such a big part himself, I wonder if the
>> comparison to Buffy et al might also be that they cope and he doesn't.
>> Their's is a story of growth. His of being beaten down.
>
> Things are... different. The best way I can think of to frame it is
> that BTVS's cast members tend to have a strong sense of who they are
> before this life grabs them (not always the best thing to have, in
> Willow's case) - the vivid personality comes from the start. No one's
> been manipulated or indoctrinated from day one to the extent that
> Connor has. I think most of the conscious parallels are to make
> Connor a bit of an anti-Dawn, although that doesn't lend itself to an
> obvious trite moral or anything, to me.

Well, he is another magical creation used as the object of contention by
everyone up to the level of a God. I get reminded of the Dawn parallel
pretty often. I just don't get much out of it - which I suppose is pretty
much what you said.


>> > as
>> > Lilah gauges Wesley's reaction to Justine's peril while Angel and
>> > Connor are discovering the infectious joy of fighting as a team. I
>> > nominated those five minutes or so as among my favorites of the series
>> > originally, and they still are.
>>
>> The praise is well earned. It's a beautifully constructed scene that
>> brings
>> everyone together in one shared moment where each observes something
>> different - something critical - and the conversations themselves are
>> about
>> seeing what has been hidden. Even Cordy turns out to have watched in her
>> vision world. You mention the infectious joy of fighting as a team - a
>> worthy observation - but I think it is superseded by the joy of them
>> playing
>> in the alley after when for just a moment - a rare moment as it turns
>> out -
>> they really feel like father and son.
>
> I mis-wrote, because that's what I was thinking of most with the
> infectious joy. The alley scene is when it's just a thrill to watch.
> The actors completely sell me that these characters have a connection
> that can't be denied or destroyed, and is the most convincing of the
> various teases that this could possibly end well. Holtz believes that
> what he sees here has the potential to overcome everything that he's
> quote-unquote-accomplished, unless he takes drastic action, and he's
> probably right.

I tend to think that Holtz wanted that bonding (why he pushed Connor onto
Angel to begin with) so as to make his revenge perfectly painful. But I
don't know. That's one of the examples where I'm tantalized by Holtz's
thinking. How much is plan? How much is improv? How much in control was
he? His plotting seemed to walk a thin line. Maybe he'd really lose
Connor. Or maybe Connor would so antagonize Angel that he'd never find that
sweet spot for his revenge. Yet, at the same time, he seems to have such a
perfect handle on both Angel's and Connor's emotions that he might have been
in control all along.


>> > and after
>> > "Loyalty," well, I've gushed before, but it'd be hard to exaggerate
>> > how much I love this period of the show. It feels the most _Angel_-
>> > like because the whole team, as Chris has pointed out, is in place:
>> > Fred has arrived, Cordy hasn't left (or turned amnesiac/possessed)
>> > yet, Lorne moves in, and teen-Connor drops in at the end of the year.
>>
>> I can only partly agree with that. It was an outstanding period, and is
>> closest to the whole team being in place. (Though Wesley isn't exactly
>> in
>> place.) But I think it's a little thin on core Angel themes and
>> behavior.
>> This season does a nice job of expanding upon the Gypsy curse and showing
>> it
>> as Angel's natural fate....
>>
>> Connor: Killing is to good for you. You don't get to die. You get to
>> live -
>> forever.
>>
>> But S2 is much stronger at presenting his great redemption battle - in
>> theme, in object (Darla) and in extremes of behavior. S2 - and somewhat
>> reprised in an S5 which also repeats the theme - has the character of
>> Angel
>> that most thrills me. I love what's done with Wesley in S3 and S4, and
>> even
>> Connor at times, and the cast in general - especially Lilah. But the
>> core
>> of the series never stops being about Angel. Angel as dad just isn't at
>> the
>> top of what I appreciate about the character no matter how much they
>> hammer
>> the family theme.
>
> The thing abut S2, though, is that as the beige period goes on, Angel
> becomes harder for me to understand in an empathize-able way. We
> talked about it some, but I never entirely grasped the flow there,
> between episodes especially. I like a lot of the Darla arc, of
> course, but I feel like arguing, or at least suggesting, that it
> doesn't play to all of Angel's strengths as a character either. After
> all, Angel's arc in S2 is a story of defeat (and moving on); one of
> the climaxes is when he gives up completely. The found family thing
> may get repetitious when one watches lots of ME shows, but the
> relationships with the people they love are a big part of their
> protagonists' personalities.
>
> I wish Season Two held up better for me, because of how good its best
> parts are. Recently one of the threads on Whedonesque, about a
> passing comment from Joss suggesting that _Dollhouse_ would be his
> most "morally ambiguous" show, led to everyone agreeing that they
> wanted to see lots more moments like "that wasn't Angel... wasn't
> Angelus either..."

I can't argue with any of that - it goes to how I see AtS as a flawed,
albeit fascinating, series. (And why the attributes of S3 are enough for me
to consider it roughly equal in quality to S2. They're both good seasons
for me.) Still, the season, in several fashions, sticks to the torment of
his soul, good vs. evil, monster and man, redemption and damnation, and so
on. You can really point back to the inception of his character and the
refining of it in Amends and connect it powerfully to his S2 arc. For all
the flaws and confusions of its depiction, that's still the heart of the
Angel concept for me, and S2 is the best effort at portraying it.


> Which brings up another memory which I've told in pieces before but
> never concisely. This is probably a result of simply spending a lot
> of time with the show more than a reflection of any particular
> episode. But when Angel briefly went evil in "Eternity," it was one
> of the highlights for me not only of a bland episode, but of the whole
> (admittedly not stellar) series thus far. Much like back in
> Sunnydale, Angel seemed almost too good as a villain to waste as a
> hero. As Season Two of ATS constantly teased me with having him lose
> his soul, I kinda wanted it to happen, although I certainly
> appreciated them doing something murkier instead, and letting the
> character have a nasty streak that his soul only theoretically keeps
> in check. By the time the show got around to S3 and the Excellent
> Trilogy, my reaction to "this isn't Angelus talking to you, it's me,
> Angel," was "well, I'm glad. Angel's ten times more interesting than
> Angelus."

I can't really argue with that either - except to note how S2 serves as
foundation to that realization.

OBS

One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0a4ace79-ff76-473d-976d-5b073cd7a025@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 12, 10:27 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:6659dcab-5eab-4788-a2e7-6522c9e759d1@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> > From [our] Stephen: "One theory
> >> > I've heard is that Connor is, in many ways, the opposite of Buffy &
> >> > Co. On that show, our teenagers often have to cope with adults
> >> > apparently being willfully stupid or blind, failing to understand them
> >> > and their concerns, and generally being obtuse. Here it's Angel, the
> >> > adult, who's our protagonist - and it's his turn to be baffled by the
> >> > actions and feelings of his teenage son."
> >>
> >> I wonder how much we're supposed to empathize with both Angel and Connor.
> >> We can certainly see how Angel is baffled by the teenager. But can we
> >> perhaps perceive on the teenage level too? In other words, Angel, the
> >> adult, still can be obtuse and non-understanding - making the mistakes
> >> adults make. And it surely is adults that screw Connor up. Or to put it
> >> yet another way, is Connor someone for teens to relate to and attract
> >> them
> >> to the show? I've wondered sometimes what they had in mind making him
> >> such
> >> a major cast character. But the circumstances of his creation plus next
> >> year's exploitation by Cordy dooms him to be the screwed up kid headed
> >> for a
> >> bad end.
> >
> > The reason I can't see that kind of design is that in his earliest
> > episodes, Connor's an enigma. The show works hard to keep us in the
> > dark along with Angel - even when we're following Connor in ANW for
> > instance, we don't find out how thoroughly Holtz has shaped him until
> > almost the end of the episode. This is a character who starts out
> > from an alien position far removed from any young viewers, no matter
> > what issues they may have with their parents, and begins with an
> > entrenched desire to hurt our protagonist. So it seems pretty clear
> > to me that as far as We The Viewer are concerned, we're intended to
> > want to save him, not to identify with him.
>
> Admittedly I was thinking more of the decision to keep him as a major S4
> character than how he's used at the end of S3. And, even if they did have
> something like that in mind, the story foundation couldn't accommodate it.
> However, there is also this from Benediction.
>
> Fred: Wait a minute. Wow. Something here is pretty (looks up see Connor
> standing in front of her) hot.
>
> I don't think that's a line they'd use if they didn't think there was
> potential as a heartthrob.

Well, Kartheiser is indeed cute. Maybe they didn't quite realize how
much the story foundation would continue to limit that kind of
potential? Who knows? I also heard (secondhand on the NG) that it
was thought that the Cordelia/Connor relationship would draw in fans,
yet at the same time, everything about the way it's written/performed/
shot suggests that it's intended to creep the viewer the hell out.
So, who knows?

> > I mis-wrote, because that's what I was thinking of most with the
> > infectious joy. The alley scene is when it's just a thrill to watch.
> > The actors completely sell me that these characters have a connection
> > that can't be denied or destroyed, and is the most convincing of the
> > various teases that this could possibly end well. Holtz believes that
> > what he sees here has the potential to overcome everything that he's
> > quote-unquote-accomplished, unless he takes drastic action, and he's
> > probably right.
>
> I tend to think that Holtz wanted that bonding (why he pushed Connor onto
> Angel to begin with) so as to make his revenge perfectly painful. But I
> don't know. That's one of the examples where I'm tantalized by Holtz's
> thinking. How much is plan? How much is improv? How much in control was
> he? His plotting seemed to walk a thin line. Maybe he'd really lose
> Connor. Or maybe Connor would so antagonize Angel that he'd never find that
> sweet spot for his revenge. Yet, at the same time, he seems to have such a
> perfect handle on both Angel's and Connor's emotions that he might have been
> in control all along.

Holtz seems quick on his feet. Think of "Lullaby;" nothing he finds
out keeps him from coming up with a new plan.

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> ANGEL
> Season Three, Episode 20: "A New World"
> Writer: Jeffrey Bell
> Director: Tim Minear

This is one of those episodes that feels exciting while it's playing, but
afterwards feels kind of slight, almost truncated. As OBS already pointed
out in his reply, not a whole lot of ground is covered beyond the
introduction of Connor and his less than loving attitude towards his
father. I think it's all done well, but there could have been more.
This isn't enough of a problem to keep me from enjoying the episode, just
enough to make me hesitate to call it Excellent.

But there are certainly good moments aplenty. The whole Lilah-Wesley
scene, for instance. I love Lilah's pleasure in her blatantly fake memory
lapse in the speech about traitors -- Oh, I always forget, what *was* his
name? -- and Wesley's guilty inability to cut her off. It's kind of neat
the way the Lilah-Wesley relationship straddles the end of S3 and
beginning of S4, when they'll continue to have wonderful little scenes
together isolated from the rest of the cast.

The actiony bits are good too, the first one in the teaser and beginning
of act 1 in particular. In the final fight scene, it's fun, in a slightly
cruel way to watch Connor slap that loathsome drug dealer upside his
mutilated head. And I really like Sunny. Her sad little voice as she
insists that no, she isn't sad, sticks with me. I wonder how Connor would
have developed if Angel had shown up just in time to get her to the
hospital? Or even if Angel's first reaction was to try to help her?
Instead, Angel's unsympathetic reaction to her death, furiously demanding
if she put any of that crap into Connor, is just about the worst it could
be for Connor at that moment. Well, it might not have mattered anyway.
Holtz's trick in the next episode might have been enough to turn Connor on
Angel no matter what.

> Rating: Good

I said Good last time. Watching it again for this thread, I enjoyed it as
much as an Excellent. But again, all the excitement doesn't advance the
main story very far, leaving me with a nagging feeling that there should
have been more. It's like one 42-minute-long first act. So I'm going to
leave it as a Good, though a high one.

> Season Three, Episode 21: "Benediction"
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
..
> One of the first things I think about when calling this episode to
> memory is the sound-effect-enhanced vision and the cut to how everyone
> else sees Cordy. I don't know exactly why that bit tickles me so
> much, but there ya go.

It tickles me too. Perhaps it's related to how I'm always amused (even
when simultaneously irritated) by people with headphones on who talk too
loud, or who think they're silently mouthing the words when in fact the
whole office/subway car/national park can hear them muttering loudly
along.

I also share your love (or at least tickledness) for the whole scene in
the dance club, and the scene after it in the back alley. Their little
play sparring match might actually be the high point of the entire
Angel-Connor relationship, at least until NFA.

Holtz tells Connor he should spend time with Angel to learn "what of him
is in you." So how much of Angel *is* in Connor? They're both warriors
by nature, both have volcanic tempers and a talent for sneering, both are
molded by teachers other than their parents (Holtz, Darla), both go
through a period of hating their fathers.... What else?

Benediction also gets points from me for the return of Justine, one of my
absolute favorite recurring AtS characters; I wonder if she might show up
in S6? And of course more points for the dramatic ending. I'm a little
more dubious of the "soul colonic," though. To a first time viewer, it
might seem like the whole season is turning into a cheap trick to give
Angel a son, soap-operaify him into a teenager, then purge him of his bad
energy so he'll become a loyal Robin to Angel's Batman. *That* never
happened, of course, thank Joss; but I'm still not sure what good the
colonic did for the larger Angel-Connor story. Just a misdirect before
Holtz sends Connor over the edge, I guess. Did Lorne get Connor to sing
so he could evaluate the effects? Maybe we missed our chance to hear some
authentic Quor-tothian folk songs.

Cute detail: Cordy's comment on Fred's mystical geiger counter is ...
"Shiny!" Gorram amusing, that.

> Rating: Excellent

Excellent for me too. My favorite of this excellent trio of episodes.

> Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: David Greenwalt
..
> As mentioned, at this point many fans seem to
> have understood that not all was as it seemed, and that's just
> prominent enough to partially mitigate some of the cheesy excesses of
> that.

Forget the fans, Cordy herself should have realized something was up. She
never notices the incongruity of getting a vision about her own love life,
not even remotely connected with helping the helpless. I guess deep down
inside she's still self-centered old Queen C, sometimes at least.

On the other hand, Groo is remarkably mature and reasonable, for a
barbarian swordsman. Thin though the character is, I can't help but feel
for him in these three episodes.

> I still
> get a bit caught up in how incredibly cruel Connor is with his
> vengeance, and hearing Angel's proclamations of love as the lid closes
> on him definitely gets to me.

I really like the calm, level-headed attitude Connor adopts in that scene
(in contrast to the fury of their fight earlier). He doesn't even bother
with any dramatic final words before shoving Dad into the water. On a
similar note, I like Connor's part of the teaser, when he and Justine
reprise Holtz and Sahjhan's roles at the end of Lullaby.

> Rating: Excellent (up from Good)

Excellent for me too. Though I like the previous episode a bit more,
they're probably on the same level of quality.

> Additional comments on S3D6: Anyone note the "screen tests" among the
> DVD features? They're fun little bits with Acker and Kartheiser

Fred is always a delight, even in non-canonical scenes.

> the missteps early are missteps with a purpose in mind, and after
> "Loyalty," well, I've gushed before, but it'd be hard to exaggerate
> how much I love this period of the show. It feels the most _Angel_-
> like because the whole team, as Chris has pointed out, is in place:
> Fred has arrived, Cordy hasn't left (or turned amnesiac/possessed)
> yet, Lorne moves in, and teen-Connor drops in at the end of the year.
> When asked to name my favorite year of the series, there's not even a
> hesitation from me.

I'll add that it's the season of Holtz, my favorite AtS antagonist.
(Except sometimes it's Lilah, but she also figures prominently in S3.) I
can understand OBS's view that S2 is stronger because there's more focus
on Angel and his struggle for redemption, but S3 still feels more
satisfying to me overall. There's less focus on Angel's redemption, but a
stronger seasonal plot arc and better development for the other main
characters (except maybe Cordy). Maybe the difference is that S2 has more
of what makes Angel a great character, but S3 has more of what makes AtS a
great show.

In another post AOQ mentions the "Excellent Trilogy." In the
non-rating-system sense of the word "excellent," S3 actually features a
trio of excellent trilogies: Offspring-Quickening-Lullaby, Loyalty-Sleep
Tight-Forgiving, and ANW-Benediction-Tomorrow. It's not just great
television, it's also satisfying in its symmetry.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

On Feb 21, 10:20 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder how Connor would
> have developed if Angel had shown up just in time to get her to the
> hospital? Or even if Angel's first reaction was to try to help her?
> Instead, Angel's unsympathetic reaction to her death, furiously demanding
> if she put any of that crap into Connor, is just about the worst it could
> be for Connor at that moment. Well, it might not have mattered anyway.
> Holtz's trick in the next episode might have been enough to turn Connor on
> Angel no matter what.

I think in the long run it doesn't matter very much (and part of what
keeps ANW as merely interesting rather than momentous). Other than
the knee-jerk reaction to the drugs, Angel does his best to accept
Connor for whomever or whatever he's become. I figure "Benediction,"
with the two of them drifting together and Holtz's final vengeance,
would have played out pretty much the same way regardless of what
details about ANW you tweak.

> Benediction also gets points from me for the return of Justine, one of my
> absolute favorite recurring AtS characters; I wonder if she might show up
> in S6?

Her dialogue here gets me the closest to understanding why, after the
chances she's had and the things she's learned, she'd choose Holtz's
way. The two of them work well together for S3's purposes.

The ad at the back of the latest issue of ATF has a picture that
really looks like her - I think it's (supposed to be) Gwen, though.
I've always kind of imagined Angel running into her (at cross-
purposes, most likely) while she's playing some kind of morally
ambiguous game that involves killing things; she'd say something
ominous, he'd say her name in a surprised manner suggesting that he
hadn't thought about her nearly as often as vice versa, and then Spike
would say something like "am I supposed to know who this is?"

> And of course more points for the dramatic ending. I'm a little
> more dubious of the "soul colonic," though. To a first time viewer, it
> might seem like the whole season is turning into a cheap trick to give
> Angel a son, soap-operaify him into a teenager, then purge him of his bad
> energy so he'll become a loyal Robin to Angel's Batman. *That* never
> happened, of course, thank Joss; but I'm still not sure what good the
> colonic did for the larger Angel-Connor story. Just a misdirect before
> Holtz sends Connor over the edge, I guess.

Yeah, not thrilled with it either, but I think the point (besides
building intrigue and interest around Cordelia's powers blah blah
blah) is to deprive Connor of hell-seepage as any kind of excuse for
his action. A lot of the character's story is built around how he's
shaped by the past, but his choices are still his own.

> > As mentioned, at this point many fans seem to
> > have understood that not all was as it seemed, and that's just
> > prominent enough to partially mitigate some of the cheesy excesses of
> > that.
>
> Forget the fans, Cordy herself should have realized something was up. She
> never notices the incongruity of getting a vision about her own love life,
> not even remotely connected with helping the helpless. I guess deep down
> inside she's still self-centered old Queen C, sometimes at least.

Oh, I've always felt that Cordy had a sense of her own importance that
wasn't really reflective of reality, no matter how heroic she got.
Some of that came out last run-through from discussions with people
like Mel who disliked the character during her alleged sainthood,
leading me to argue that the show never forgets about her flaws.

> Excellent for me too. Though I like the previous episode a bit more,
> they're probably on the same level of quality.

I think I like "Benediction" more because it's better. No knock on
"Tomorrow," but...

> In another post AOQ mentions the "Excellent Trilogy." In the
> non-rating-system sense of the word "excellent," S3 actually features a
> trio of excellent trilogies: Offspring-Quickening-Lullaby, Loyalty-Sleep
> Tight-Forgiving, and ANW-Benediction-Tomorrow. It's not just great
> television, it's also satisfying in its symmetry.

I'm not so keen on "Offspring." It's setup without momentum. The
others are true high-quality trilogies. "Quickening" and "Lullaby"
are quite nice too, and if one wanted to instead pair them with "Dad,"
they'd be a trilogy in the same form as L-ST-F: rising action, climax,
consequences. The problem of course being that "Dad" is even less
solid than "Offspring." So, uh, just claim whatever symmetry you
want.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:95a09bc4-6669-4033-99dc-b1f07c5b8784@34g2000hsz.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 21, 10:20 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

>> And of course more points for the dramatic ending. I'm a little
>> more dubious of the "soul colonic," though. To a first time viewer, it
>> might seem like the whole season is turning into a cheap trick to give
>> Angel a son, soap-operaify him into a teenager, then purge him of his bad
>> energy so he'll become a loyal Robin to Angel's Batman. *That* never
>> happened, of course, thank Joss; but I'm still not sure what good the
>> colonic did for the larger Angel-Connor story. Just a misdirect before
>> Holtz sends Connor over the edge, I guess.
>
> Yeah, not thrilled with it either, but I think the point (besides
> building intrigue and interest around Cordelia's powers blah blah
> blah) is to deprive Connor of hell-seepage as any kind of excuse for
> his action. A lot of the character's story is built around how he's
> shaped by the past, but his choices are still his own.

Couple of things about that. If you think Jasmine is already manipulating
things, then whatever it was she did, it wasn't curing Connor of anything.
Probably mostly meant to deceive Cordelia and anybody watching.

That aside, it's a very odd scene for me. I know that Lorne and Cordy took
it as a fairly big deal - the soul colonic. But the way it played to me was
very temporary - certainly no release from the effects of the hell
dimension - and very directed towards Cordelia. Mostly it was some kind of
automatic defense mechanism in Cordy - which is how we'd seen the white glow
before. The effect on Connor struck me immediately as being overwhelmed by
Cordelia herself. I get a little confused by how Cordy and Lorne take it,
but I guess it's a misdirect since I see no evidence of any change in
attitude towards Angel. Nor do I think there's really any change towards
Lorne either - other than dialing back the visible rage.

I'm not sure why the scene is there. Maybe for the misdirect. Maybe an
early setup to allow possessed Cordy to entrap him so easily next season.
Or maybe it's a more general character moment that allows Connor to
independently receive a dose of pure love from an unexpected source -
unfettered by the great daddy duel. The kind of thing that that reveals a
little about him and feeds his doubts about the world view given him, but
for the long term much more than this episode's conflict.

OBS

<chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:13rsjc0jbmiii3a@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Three, Episode 20: "A New World"

> This is one of those episodes that feels exciting while it's playing, but
> afterwards feels kind of slight, almost truncated. As OBS already pointed
> out in his reply, not a whole lot of ground is covered beyond the
> introduction of Connor and his less than loving attitude towards his
> father. I think it's all done well, but there could have been more.
> This isn't enough of a problem to keep me from enjoying the episode, just
> enough to make me hesitate to call it Excellent.

I may get to Excellent yet. I've been thinking about this more and I'm
beginning to think that it's a good idea not to burden the episode with too
much meaningful plot. The unstated implications (which don't need to be
stated) of who he is, where he came from, the age change, who raised him,
and so on are pretty massive. I think the episode as written gives the
audience helpful space to absorb all of that and think about it. Then the
conclusion with Holtz caps it with the message that his game is afoot again.


> But there are certainly good moments aplenty. The whole Lilah-Wesley
> scene, for instance. I love Lilah's pleasure in her blatantly fake memory
> lapse in the speech about traitors -- Oh, I always forget, what *was* his
> name? -- and Wesley's guilty inability to cut her off. It's kind of neat
> the way the Lilah-Wesley relationship straddles the end of S3 and
> beginning of S4, when they'll continue to have wonderful little scenes
> together isolated from the rest of the cast.

Lilah's play on Wesley is one of my favorite things in the series. She's so
on top of her game. Wesley also has some of his best moments - one of the
curious side effects of Lilah's seduction is that it serves to steel Wesley
and make him more formidable than ever. But for now anyway, Lilah is always
one step ahead of him. Always delivering the crushing blow. And delighting
in it.

The only thing I miss is that for a little while here she seems to lose her
connection with fear - the way she seems to feed off of her own inner
quaking is something I love about the character. But she'll get that back
soon enough.


> The actiony bits are good too, the first one in the teaser and beginning
> of act 1 in particular. In the final fight scene, it's fun, in a slightly
> cruel way to watch Connor slap that loathsome drug dealer upside his
> mutilated head. And I really like Sunny. Her sad little voice as she
> insists that no, she isn't sad, sticks with me. I wonder how Connor would
> have developed if Angel had shown up just in time to get her to the
> hospital? Or even if Angel's first reaction was to try to help her?
> Instead, Angel's unsympathetic reaction to her death, furiously demanding
> if she put any of that crap into Connor, is just about the worst it could
> be for Connor at that moment.

By description alone, all of the drug stuff is terribly cliche. Yet,
somehow they managed to make it feel fresh. Maybe it's the way we see it
through Connor's eyes. I don't know. Whatever it is, it works. And, yes,
Sunny is a wonderful, albeit tragic, character.


> I'll add that it's the season of Holtz, my favorite AtS antagonist.
> (Except sometimes it's Lilah, but she also figures prominently in S3.) I
> can understand OBS's view that S2 is stronger because there's more focus
> on Angel and his struggle for redemption, but S3 still feels more
> satisfying to me overall. There's less focus on Angel's redemption, but a
> stronger seasonal plot arc and better development for the other main
> characters (except maybe Cordy). Maybe the difference is that S2 has more
> of what makes Angel a great character, but S3 has more of what makes AtS a
> great show.

To be clear, I think that S2 and S3 are equivalent in quality. Just with
different attributes.

OBS

chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:

>
> Benediction also gets points from me for the return of Justine, one of my
> absolute favorite recurring AtS characters; I wonder if she might show up
> in S6? And of course more points for the dramatic ending. I'm a little
> more dubious of the "soul colonic," though. To a first time viewer, it
> might seem like the whole season is turning into a cheap trick to give
> Angel a son, soap-operaify him into a teenager, then purge him of his bad
> energy so he'll become a loyal Robin to Angel's Batman. *That* never
> happened, of course, thank Joss; but I'm still not sure what good the
> colonic did for the larger Angel-Connor story. Just a misdirect before
> Holtz sends Connor over the edge, I guess. Did Lorne get Connor to sing
> so he could evaluate the effects? Maybe we missed our chance to hear some
> authentic Quor-tothian folk songs.
>
>

After seeing S4, the 'colonic' seems to be a method by which
Cordy-Jasmine started her brainwashing of Connor. It made him trust her,
to the point of not trusting anyone else.


Mel

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:6659dcab-5eab-4788-a2e7-6522c9e759d1@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: These threads care. As one human being to another. Just
> kidding.
>
> ANGEL
> Season Three, Episode 20: "A New World"
> Writer: Jeffrey Bell
> Director: Tim Minear
>
>
> Season Three, Episode 21: "Benediction"
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
>
>
> Season Three, Episode 22: "Tomorrow"
> Writer: David Greenwalt
> Director: David Greenwalt

I haven't rewatched any of these, which are for me not seriously bad,
but kind of dull (low Decent in your classification). Within season 3 they
rank 11th, 15th, and 14th respectively, and amongst all AtS episodes, 78th,
88th, and 83rd.


> Additional comments on S3D6: Anyone note the "screen tests" among the
> DVD features? They're fun little bits with Acker and Kartheiser
> joining the others in scenes that don't fit anywhere in the series
> continuity, apparently so everyone can get a sense of what it'll be
> like playing/playing opposite/writing for/filming the new characters.
> Do all shows do this?
>
> Both David and Tim basically left the show after S3, and that's a hell
> of a blow to endure and keep on ticking. I don't think ATS suffered
> as much as one might fear. But in any case, even with the
> uncharacteristic (for the Whedonverse) cliffhanger, every season feels
> very different.
>
> Numerically, Season Three isn't that far a margin ahead of Season One
> (it's ahead of all BTVS years so far barring S3, although I haven't re-
> calculated for S6 yet), but it feels like a much stronger year. Even
> the missteps early are missteps with a purpose in mind, and after
> "Loyalty," well, I've gushed before, but it'd be hard to exaggerate
> how much I love this period of the show.

It generally seems to me that as TV series continue year after
year, there is a tendency for the fresh ideas that caused the series to
succeed in the first place to be used up, and the writers forced to turn to
storylines that are essentially soap operas about the lives of the
characters. There is a competing factor, where the actors grow into their
roles as the series progresses, the crew learn more about what is required
of them, but there is always a tipping point where creative entropy wins
out. As a spinoff, AtS obviously suffers the disadvantage that it came into
the world with 3 years of creative entropy already built in, but had the
advantage that they made such a mess of season 1, season 2 was practically a
fresh start. But mid-season 3 is the tipping point for me. It's a shame,
because the story's they wrote for it and the places they take the
characters (especially Wes) are great in principal, but the devil is in the
detail. With regard to Dark Wesley, I like the changes they made to him, but
I don't buy that the changes were "earned". They just knew where they wanted
to take him, and dragged him there. And the same is probably true for season
3 in general - their ideas were bigger than their ability to work them out
in detail.

Without getting too Christian (or Osiran) about it, once a series passes its
tipping point, it usually won't rise again unless it first dies. Fortunately
that is easy to arrange.


--
Apteryx