A reminder: These threads would like to test that theory.


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 19: "Villains"
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: David Solomon

"Villains" is almost one of the all-time classics. Hannigan's
monotone take on "running on pure fury" used to bother me more, but as
part of a three-episode cycle, I enjoy the look at the different
facets of darkness in Willow. This episode is the one that
efficiently moves us from Willow as a scary x-factor to Willow as a
villain, without ever taking a step that doesn't seem like her. Plus,
revenge is fun, and I love the look at Warren as things start to not
go his way and he gets to die painfully in full awareness of how
pathetic he is. But you know how some episodes just teem with
quotables? Along with its great lines, or at least great deliveries
of lines like "I'm not coming back," "Villains" is also teeming with
non-quotables, leaden chunks of ponderous abstract statements that
make for the opposite of a crackling conversation. If anyone wants to
make a list, I'll start with "there are limits to what we can do.
There should be. Willow doesn't want to believe that. And now she's
messing with forces that want to hurt her." It's like if one were to
take a plot on the level of, say, "Consequences" and randomly drop in
dialogue left over from "Spiral." This griping is mainly to justify
not giving this one (Marti's final solo writing credit, for those of
you into trivia) an Excellent, since it's exciting enough to almost
deserve one, especially once you throw in that mind-blowing ending
sequence. Now that I've seen the whole series, Willow soaking up the
writing remains my favorite special effect of BTVS - uniqueness goes a
long way with me.
Rating: Good


Season Six, Episode 20: "Two To Go"
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Director: Bill Norton

What was that about crackling dialogue? William called TTG "an
absolute wonderland of quotability, perhaps second only to
Doppelgangland in that respect" last time around. It's strange
trading the depression and high drama of much of S6 for what's
basically a live-action comic book, but I certainly won't complain if
it reminds me why I've gotten so much enjoyment out of a few fast-
paced movies and comics in my time. Now that she's taken out Tara's
killer, a more Willowish sense of fun emerges from our favorite black-
eyed girl; she's enjoying being the star of the show even more than I
enjoy watching it. Why is evil so much fun? But let's not forget
Buffy, our actual star. She becomes as a champion of life and non-
destruction, with the cred (I feel like Fred using unacceptable words)
that can only come from first-hand experience. Also one of the few
(only?) times _Buffy_ goes for a surprise character appearance at the
end; that's normally more ATS's territory. It's a good one, though,
somehow making me even more excited about this arc after what was
already a thrilling standoff... makes me glad I got to watch TTG and
"Grave" as individual chapters, as Joss intended.
Rating: Excellent


Season Six, Episode 21: "Grave"
Writer: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner

It's always a little disappointing that, like S3 before it, S6 closes
on something less than the perfect bang it seems to deserve. "Grave"
has a knack for coming up with things that're unexpected yet seem to
fit, and then executing them in a decent but flawed manner. Giles's
reaction to Buffy telling him about her life caught me off guard but
makes sense as something they both needed; from there, the
interactions are intriguing in where there's healing and where there's
still distance (also, Anya vying for attention always kills me).
Sadly it brings back all my issues about Giles abandoning her, reduced
to a brief brushed-off apology, like the show's letting him off the
hook - granted, it's the season finale, we don't have time to sort
through every emotional reaction anyone's ever had. The plotting
certainly has its moments: particularly, Willow becoming more of a
threat to the world the more she gets focused on fixing people's
problems is too perfect to pass up. Unfortunately, there's enough of
the plot that involves outside forces being brought in out of nowhere,
is relayed to us by Giles lying on the floor and slowly mumbling bits
of exposition, and only the bits that the script has arbitrarily given
him permission to reveal. The climax featuring a carpenter saving
humanity through his love (there's a reason it's a classic, I guess)
is pretty sappy and heavy-handed, but damned if it doesn't work great,
even on re-watch. And Buffy summing up the season is also sappy and
heavy-handed, the difference being that it's not such great TV. I'm
not so convinced that the symbolism needs to be spelled out so
bluntly, but even if we take it as a given that it does, everything
from the underwhelming special effects to the clunky staging to the
soppy speech falls substantially flat, leaving one's last impression
of the amazing S6 as something less than amazing.

Willow's head-rush isn't as excruciating as I'd expected it to be on
re-watching, if you care.
Rating: Good


Additional comments on S6D6: I managed to make it through the thread
without mentioning (except elliptically here) a certain character who
dominates all the discussions despite appearing for a grand total of
maybe four minutes on this disc (a few seconds of which are really
really important, but still)...

On the decision to hold off on Dark Willow until the very end of the
year, I'm very much in favor. The Willow-centric parts of "Villains"
through "Grave" are tightly, tightly plotted. Each episode leaves one
little time for unnatural breaks in the action, because the writers
seem to have correctly deduced that three hours (with commercials) is
exactly the right length to spend on this particular story. In other
Darth Rosenberg related controversies, I don't hesitate in the
slightest to say that Dark Willow is leaps and bounds beyond the one-
note vampire Willow of S3 (to whom she's often compared). She's
almost more interesting than the normal version, except of course that
everything's grounded in Just Willow, as with all the best Buffyverse
"dark" versions of people. (Is there a non-Buffy major character that
doesn't go evil or at least highly ambiguous at some point?) Also, if
nothing else, pre-veiny jet-black Willow is incredibly hot.

Sarah Michelle then-Gellar makes her only featurette appearance in the
retrospective about the show; it must've been something that was
originally for TV. Interesting that it gets into parts of the pitch/
development story that aren't touched anywhere else on the DVD sets.

My ratings ticked upward for a couple episodes, but otherwise stayed
the same on re-watching. I'm not showing my numerical work, because I
don't think anyone else cares, but in terms of both mean and
proportion of good episodes, the numbers agree with my gut feeling
that S6 is pretty clearly the second-best season so far, behind Season
Three. Both finish ahead of any season of _Angel_.

I give you back... your free time. Well, till next season. For your
reference, I'm still going to try to vaguely approximate airdate order
during S7/S4, so the _Buffy_ threads will be posted first through disc
4 or 5, then we'll switch it up.

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: These threads would like to test that theory.
>
>
>
>
> Season Six, Episode 21: "Grave"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> Willow's head-rush isn't as excruciating as I'd expected it to be on
> re-watching, if you care.

This was one of the few scenes in the entire series that, to me, anyway,
Alyson seemed to have real problems with. There weren't many - she
nailed most everything the writers handed her (well, except for the
foreign languages. :-)) - but this scene she just didn't seem to get a
handle on. Given the dialogue and the blocking, though, I suspect a
whole lots'a actors would have had problems with it...

> Rating: Good
>
>
> Additional comments on S6D6: I managed to make it through the thread
> without mentioning (except elliptically here) a certain character who
> dominates all the discussions despite appearing for a grand total of
> maybe four minutes on this disc (a few seconds of which are really
> really important, but still)...

Thank you...

>
> On the decision to hold off on Dark Willow until the very end of the
> year, I'm very much in favor. The Willow-centric parts of "Villains"
> through "Grave" are tightly, tightly plotted. Each episode leaves one
> little time for unnatural breaks in the action, because the writers
> seem to have correctly deduced that three hours (with commercials) is
> exactly the right length to spend on this particular story. In other
> Darth Rosenberg related controversies, I don't hesitate in the
> slightest to say that Dark Willow is leaps and bounds beyond the one-
> note vampire Willow of S3 (to whom she's often compared).

Dramatically, I'd have to agree with that. I still like VW a smidgen
better, though, for one reason: the simple gleeful fun that Vamp Willow
takes in her evil compared to Dark Willow's bitter
get-even-with-the-world rampage.

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:QoSdnY6q_fCmGyjaRVn_vwA@giganews.com:

> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: These threads would like to test that theory.
>> Additional comments on S6D6: I managed to make it through the
>> thread without mentioning (except elliptically here) a certain
>> character who dominates all the discussions despite appearing
>> for a grand total of maybe four minutes on this disc (a few
>> seconds of which are really really important, but still)...
>
> Thank you...

I don't know. I was looking forward to an in-depth discussion of
Clem... :-)

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

On Feb 15, 6:44 am, Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:

> > On the decision to hold off on Dark Willow until the very end of the
> > year, I'm very much in favor. The Willow-centric parts of "Villains"
> > through "Grave" are tightly, tightly plotted. Each episode leaves one
> > little time for unnatural breaks in the action, because the writers
> > seem to have correctly deduced that three hours (with commercials) is
> > exactly the right length to spend on this particular story. In other
> > Darth Rosenberg related controversies, I don't hesitate in the
> > slightest to say that Dark Willow is leaps and bounds beyond the one-
> > note vampire Willow of S3 (to whom she's often compared).
>
> Dramatically, I'd have to agree with that. I still like VW a smidgen
> better, though, for one reason: the simple gleeful fun that Vamp Willow
> takes in her evil compared to Dark Willow's bitter
> get-even-with-the-world rampage.

Brunettes have fun too. By the end of TTG, she's definitely enjoying
being the center of the show, finally going toe-to-toe with Buffy and
gleeful at the chance to make Giles look like the amateur. Making it
part of the mix is a very different portrayal than the "simple" fun
(purity, if you will) that we get from Vamp!Willow; obviously some
people like that in a woman-ish evil thing.

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> On Feb 15, 6:44 am, Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>> On the decision to hold off on Dark Willow until the very end of the
>>> year, I'm very much in favor. The Willow-centric parts of "Villains"
>>> through "Grave" are tightly, tightly plotted. Each episode leaves one
>>> little time for unnatural breaks in the action, because the writers
>>> seem to have correctly deduced that three hours (with commercials) is
>>> exactly the right length to spend on this particular story. In other
>>> Darth Rosenberg related controversies, I don't hesitate in the
>>> slightest to say that Dark Willow is leaps and bounds beyond the one-
>>> note vampire Willow of S3 (to whom she's often compared).
>> Dramatically, I'd have to agree with that. I still like VW a smidgen
>> better, though, for one reason: the simple gleeful fun that Vamp Willow
>> takes in her evil compared to Dark Willow's bitter
>> get-even-with-the-world rampage.
>
> Brunettes have fun too. By the end of TTG, she's definitely enjoying
> being the center of the show, finally going toe-to-toe with Buffy and
> gleeful at the chance to make Giles look like the amateur.

Oh, sure, but it's coming from a very different place. It's the
difference between, "Way cool! I can make a big boom!" and, "Way cool!
I can blow up a bunch of people to get even for the world making my
life hell!"

> Making it
> part of the mix is a very different portrayal than the "simple" fun
> (purity, if you will) that we get from Vamp!Willow; obviously some
> people like that in a woman-ish evil thing.

It's the bitterness at the bottom of it all that takes points off for
me. Willow has always been my favorite character, and, even though her
issues have been clear right from the beginning if one was paying
attention, it's a little disturbing to finally see the depths of how
emotionally damaged she really is. I can relate to that, which is why I
hate to see a character I like going through it, especially one who is
basically a good person despite their issues, even if it does make for
good drama.

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 19: "Villains"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Solomon
>
> "Villains" is almost one of the all-time classics. Hannigan's
> monotone take on "running on pure fury" used to bother me more, but as
> part of a three-episode cycle, I enjoy the look at the different
> facets of darkness in Willow. This episode is the one that
> efficiently moves us from Willow as a scary x-factor to Willow as a
> villain, without ever taking a step that doesn't seem like her. Plus,
> revenge is fun, and I love the look at Warren as things start to not
> go his way and he gets to die painfully in full awareness of how
> pathetic he is. But you know how some episodes just teem with

i have a problem in that some years later
willow doesnt feel any guilt for warren

she killed out of anger and frustration just like her victim
there wasnt anything nobler about her motives

> Season Six, Episode 20: "Two To Go"
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Bill Norton

> enjoy watching it. Why is evil so much fun? But let's not forget
> Buffy, our actual star. She becomes as a champion of life and non-

she gets a little excessive bwahahaitis
channeling some bad bond villians

> Season Six, Episode 21: "Grave"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner

> Sadly it brings back all my issues about Giles abandoning her, reduced
> to a brief brushed-off apology, like the show's letting him off the
> hook - granted, it's the season finale, we don't have time to sort

reality sometimes intrudes
like the beginning of the season it seems they did nothing all summer
and then crowd all the angst into the first few weeks of fall

which coincidentally follows the filming schedule for the series

> Sarah Michelle then-Gellar makes her only featurette appearance in the
> retrospective about the show; it must've been something that was
> originally for TV. Interesting that it gets into parts of the pitch/

you can actually date it because sara is in her wedding hair
early season seven

there must be some archaelogy term for dating a culture by hair styles

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:c57549c3-ffab-44ce-95c8-2c9dfc0f3b7d@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: These threads would like to test that theory.

That's borrowed dialogue. No way that's gonna be strong enough.


> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 19: "Villains"

> "Villains" is almost one of the all-time classics. Hannigan's
> monotone take on "running on pure fury" used to bother me more, but as
> part of a three-episode cycle, I enjoy the look at the different
> facets of darkness in Willow. This episode is the one that
> efficiently moves us from Willow as a scary x-factor to Willow as a
> villain, without ever taking a step that doesn't seem like her.

True - and I can cite with the best of them why it's all founded in her.
Still, the sense that gets me the most at this point is one of denial. That
can't really be Willow can it? It's next episode that Jonathan says, "She
packed her own lunches and wore floods and was always... just Willow." But
it's this stage that I'm really thinking that. You comment below about the
painfulness of some of the lines like, "there are limits to what we can
do...." But the essence of those messages aren't the preaching. It's the
fear that they're losing just Willow. Buffy's desperate to stop her
because, as she says next episode, killing changes you. And Willow herself
said that she wasn't coming back.

I think that gives this episode of the trilogy a little special kick. She's
running amok, but hasn't crossed the line yet. Until the awful end. And
then she can never be just Willow again. Maybe they'll contain the
explosion and save the world. They just won't get their Willow back. So I
don't care so much if there's a triteness to some of the words. The spirit
of them works. (Besides. Even with it's quotables, Two To Go is the
episode with run at the mouth declaiming.)


> Plus,
> revenge is fun, and I love the look at Warren as things start to not
> go his way and he gets to die painfully in full awareness of how
> pathetic he is.

I love Adam Busch's performance here.


> But you know how some episodes just teem with
> quotables? Along with its great lines, or at least great deliveries
> of lines like "I'm not coming back," "Villains" is also teeming with
> non-quotables, leaden chunks of ponderous abstract statements that
> make for the opposite of a crackling conversation. If anyone wants to
> make a list, I'll start with "there are limits to what we can do.
> There should be. Willow doesn't want to believe that. And now she's
> messing with forces that want to hurt her." It's like if one were to
> take a plot on the level of, say, "Consequences" and randomly drop in
> dialogue left over from "Spiral." This griping is mainly to justify
> not giving this one (Marti's final solo writing credit, for those of
> you into trivia) an Excellent, since it's exciting enough to almost
> deserve one, especially once you throw in that mind-blowing ending
> sequence. Now that I've seen the whole series, Willow soaking up the
> writing remains my favorite special effect of BTVS - uniqueness goes a
> long way with me.

Among the things I love about this episode is the fashion in which they
mirror Willow's behavior in Tough Love. Partly to show how true to Willow
it is. But more to show how much worse, how much more dangerous it is this
time. Especially in the Magic Box where soaking up the dark magicks is so
much more intense then breaking the lock on the book was then. That's so
disquieting now in good part because the old version had been the standard
for a Willow explosion.


> Rating: Good

I'm going with an Excellent for this. I think I did before. If I must
break up the three (which I usually watch together), then this is slightly
my favorite. "One tiny piece of metal."


> Season Six, Episode 20: "Two To Go"

> What was that about crackling dialogue? William called TTG "an
> absolute wonderland of quotability, perhaps second only to
> Doppelgangland in that respect" last time around.

Yeah, but it bogs down in the endless confrontation at Rack's moving onto
the Buffy/Willow fight back at the Magic Box. Not that I object to the
sentiments. Willow's ridicule of Dawn is priceless. And there definitely
is a thrill in seeing Willow and Buffy face off. But the volume of words
really get in the way of this section and make for my most disappointing
scene in this trilogy - the Buffy/Willow fight. It ought to be a classic -
one of the highpoints of the series. The construct of power against power
with deep emotional connections brings to mind the Buffy/Angel confrontation
in Becoming and the Buffy/Faith fight in Graduation Day. And it feels that
way for a moment.

Doesn't live up to it though. The fight choreography teases at excellence
for a bit, but never gets there. Quickly enough it peters out with a
pathetic conclusion of a slight shove by Willow somehow knocking Buffy out
briefly as Willow discovers Anya. Meanwhile the talking is interminable -
coming on the heels of a talkfest at Racks. I know that the fight/talk
combination is a staple of these shows, but this one kind of thuds for me.

This doesn't stop the rest of the episode from thrilling. It's just that it
feels so much like a great lost opportunity - especially since Buffy won't
be the center of the finale.


> It's strange
> trading the depression and high drama of much of S6 for what's
> basically a live-action comic book, but I certainly won't complain if
> it reminds me why I've gotten so much enjoyment out of a few fast-
> paced movies and comics in my time. Now that she's taken out Tara's
> killer, a more Willowish sense of fun emerges from our favorite black-
> eyed girl; she's enjoying being the star of the show even more than I
> enjoy watching it. Why is evil so much fun? But let's not forget
> Buffy, our actual star. She becomes as a champion of life and non-
> destruction, with the cred (I feel like Fred using unacceptable words)
> that can only come from first-hand experience. Also one of the few
> (only?) times _Buffy_ goes for a surprise character appearance at the
> end; that's normally more ATS's territory. It's a good one, though,
> somehow making me even more excited about this arc after what was
> already a thrilling standoff... makes me glad I got to watch TTG and
> "Grave" as individual chapters, as Joss intended.
> Rating: Excellent

There's a bunch of cool things in this episode from Willow's unearthly
scream when she finds the nerds escaped from their cell, to Willow steering
the truck as her power drains. Not to mention one of the coolest surprise
endings ever on TV. I was finally watching the episodes as they ran by this
point and can remember the excited talk from friends about Rupert's
entrance. A couple of days ago I happened to catch a little Firefly on TV,
including River's line, "No power in the 'verse can stop me." I had an urge
to see Giles appear just then.

For some reason I was especially struck this watching by Willow's reunion
with Rack, which for me justifies their original meeting that upsets a lot
of people. Partly, of course, for the payback. Revenge is underrated.
(Now where have I heard that before... I seem to be overloaded with
Whedonverse sentiments lately.) But also - and I hesitate to say this -
because I think the moment leading into it really gets the ugly eroticism of
their connection. Call me twisted, but the sexual energy alone ought to be
recharging Willow.

I note how you're emphasizing this trio of episodes as individual chapters.
It's a worthy sentiment that does capture the increments of movement in
them. Still the collective sense of them feeding and flowing into each
other gets me more, making it hard to rate them individually. Alone I'd
rate this Good - barely short of Excellent. It's kind of the crazy fun
episode of the group, but lacking the substance of Willow's fall last
episode and the grand conclusion of the next. And a little down graded for
the disappointing cat fight. But that misses how integral it is to an
overall Excellent for the trio that exceeds any of the individual episodes.



> Season Six, Episode 21: "Grave"

> It's always a little disappointing that, like S3 before it, S6 closes
> on something less than the perfect bang it seems to deserve.

It does close with a bang though.


> "Grave"
> has a knack for coming up with things that're unexpected yet seem to
> fit, and then executing them in a decent but flawed manner. Giles's
> reaction to Buffy telling him about her life caught me off guard but
> makes sense as something they both needed; from there, the
> interactions are intriguing in where there's healing and where there's
> still distance (also, Anya vying for attention always kills me).
> Sadly it brings back all my issues about Giles abandoning her, reduced
> to a brief brushed-off apology, like the show's letting him off the
> hook - granted, it's the season finale, we don't have time to sort
> through every emotional reaction anyone's ever had.

I agree except for one thing. It's true that it reminds me of things that I
never fully reconcile with Giles looking both forwards and backwards.
However, within the framework of that overall flawed story, the ambiguity of
this moment is just about as good as it gets for me. I like the combination
of healing and distance. I like how Giles can make Buffy laugh about what
she's gone through this year, but still can't answer the question of why
she's here. The show gets a lot out of very little in their scene together.
Would they have had the same success elsewhere.


> The plotting
> certainly has its moments: particularly, Willow becoming more of a
> threat to the world the more she gets focused on fixing people's
> problems is too perfect to pass up. Unfortunately, there's enough of
> the plot that involves outside forces being brought in out of nowhere,
> is relayed to us by Giles lying on the floor and slowly mumbling bits
> of exposition, and only the bits that the script has arbitrarily given
> him permission to reveal.

Described that way it sure sounds dopey. Still, I love the way that plays
out and how it feeds Anya's emotions.

I don't know how much was intended to show Anya's heart as opposed to
fitting her into the episode with the usual comic relief. But there it is
whatever the intent, and it's Anya on her own showing caring, compassion and
love for a friend in distress. (Also receiving by proxy her last great
lesson on humanity from Xander.) It seems to me to be a big peak at the
underlying heart that will bedevil her demon ways.

I also don't think of it as outside forces appearing from nowhere. The
whole thing is mainly a good vs. evil battle fighting for Willow's soul.
And the outside agents that matter are simply her friends seeking to save
her. Surely it's understood in our hearts - even if our minds haven't
caught up yet - that Giles comes to save Willow. Not defeat her. In
context one shouldn't make too much of the stealth good magic. That's just
the trick to catch Willow off guard. (And a natural counterbalance to the
dark magic.) I think we have plenty of foundation that Giles could only
overcome Willow with trickery, and such tricks are normally fully revealed
in story only in their triumph. The magic itself merely allows her heart to
be touched. Then Xander does the heavy lifting to bring it home. As out of
the blue devices go, this is small stuff compared to - say - a certain
scythe. And far more logical.


> The climax featuring a carpenter saving
> humanity through his love (there's a reason it's a classic, I guess)
> is pretty sappy and heavy-handed, but damned if it doesn't work great,

Yep. Useless Xander comes through again.


> even on re-watch. And Buffy summing up the season is also sappy and
> heavy-handed, the difference being that it's not such great TV.

Yep. That's this episode's relatively weak part. Starting with the fall
into the hole. I don't really mind the sentiment of Buffy finally seeing
how she's preventing Dawn from growing, but as the final installment of
Buffy's season long climb from her metaphorical grave, it just doesn't stack
up to all that preceded it. Which makes gazing at the wonder of living
somehow less poignant than it ought to be.


> I'm
> not so convinced that the symbolism needs to be spelled out so
> bluntly, but even if we take it as a given that it does, everything
> from the underwhelming special effects to the clunky staging to the
> soppy speech falls substantially flat, leaving one's last impression
> of the amazing S6 as something less than amazing.

I have no issue with the Willow/Xander part. That's plenty amazing enough
for me. Plus there's that part that you've studiously avoided talking
apart. You know. The actual ending of the episode. I understand a little
what you're saying by comparing it to the relative disappointment of the S3
finale, but I still like it a lot because even with the sappy music and
images, the physical and emotional exhaustion really come through. The way
it comes across to me is much akin to the image of wounded warriors leaning
on each other as they depart the still smoking battlefield. It's a moment
that carries with it all that's come before, and the pain they will carry
forward. Yet somehow acknowledging through it that life is for the living.
I like that.


> Willow's head-rush isn't as excruciating as I'd expected it to be on
> re-watching, if you care.

Heh.


> Rating: Good

I'm an absolute sucker for Xander saving the world (to Anya's astonishment)
and Giles making Buffy laugh and Jonathan accepting the error of his ways -
until opportunity to run away offers itself - and Spike revealing the
soulquest. Not to mention the wonderful battle between Giles and Willow
that sort of runs from start to finish. The good stuff this episode
overwhelms the lagging parts to my tastes and pulls out a scant Excellent.

This trio of episodes as a whole, however, earn a very strong Excellent.
This run (which I usually watch along with Seeing Red) is likely the most
entertaining sequence of the series for me. I won't say the best - none of
these episodes are top ten for the series. Just the ones I like to get out
the popcorn for and watch in thrilling series.


> Additional comments on S6D6: I managed to make it through the thread
> without mentioning (except elliptically here) a certain character who
> dominates all the discussions despite appearing for a grand total of
> maybe four minutes on this disc (a few seconds of which are really
> really important, but still)...

I hear he just wanted to get laid.


> On the decision to hold off on Dark Willow until the very end of the
> year, I'm very much in favor.

I love what they did. I'm still curious what ideas they may have had to
sustain a more extended Willow as big bad arc. It surely couldn't work like
this. What would the alternative be? Might she, for example, have become
the leader of the Trio?

> (Is there a non-Buffy major character that
> doesn't go evil or at least highly ambiguous at some point?)

Tara.
In BtVS alone - Cordelia.


> Also, if
> nothing else, pre-veiny jet-black Willow is incredibly hot.

Duh.

Actually, veiny Willow is incredibly hot too.


> My ratings ticked upward for a couple episodes, but otherwise stayed
> the same on re-watching. I'm not showing my numerical work, because I
> don't think anyone else cares, but in terms of both mean and
> proportion of good episodes, the numbers agree with my gut feeling
> that S6 is pretty clearly the second-best season so far, behind Season
> Three. Both finish ahead of any season of _Angel_.

I think my ratings went up slightly too, but I think the episode average is
still below S4. Even so, this is clearly my favorite season.


> I give you back... your free time. Well, till next season. For your
> reference, I'm still going to try to vaguely approximate airdate order
> during S7/S4, so the _Buffy_ threads will be posted first through disc
> 4 or 5, then we'll switch it up.

Someone posted a link once that had air dates including network re-runs. Do
you have that - or a list - by any chance? I'm only interested in S6.

OBS

On Feb 21, 12:36 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:c57549c3-ffab-44ce-95c8-2c9dfc0f3b7d@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Among the things I love about this episode is the fashion in which they
> mirror Willow's behavior in Tough Love. Partly to show how true to Willow
> it is. But more to show how much worse, how much more dangerous it is this
> time. Especially in the Magic Box where soaking up the dark magicks is so
> much more intense then breaking the lock on the book was then. That's so
> disquieting now in good part because the old version had been the standard
> for a Willow explosion.

I love the repetitious elements in this particular case; both episodes
benefit.

> > Season Six, Episode 20: "Two To Go"
> > What was that about crackling dialogue? William called TTG "an
> > absolute wonderland of quotability, perhaps second only to
> > Doppelgangland in that respect" last time around.
>
> Yeah, but it bogs down in the endless confrontation at Rack's moving onto
> the Buffy/Willow fight back at the Magic Box. Not that I object to the
> sentiments. Willow's ridicule of Dawn is priceless. And there definitely
> is a thrill in seeing Willow and Buffy face off. But the volume of words
> really get in the way of this section and make for my most disappointing
> scene in this trilogy - the Buffy/Willow fight. It ought to be a classic -
> one of the highpoints of the series. The construct of power against power
> with deep emotional connections brings to mind the Buffy/Angel confrontation
> in Becoming and the Buffy/Faith fight in Graduation Day. And it feels that
> way for a moment.
>
> Doesn't live up to it though. The fight choreography teases at excellence
> for a bit, but never gets there. Quickly enough it peters out with a
> pathetic conclusion of a slight shove by Willow somehow knocking Buffy out
> briefly as Willow discovers Anya. Meanwhile the talking is interminable -
> coming on the heels of a talkfest at Racks. I know that the fight/talk
> combination is a staple of these shows, but this one kind of thuds for me.

I'm with you with the part where the confrontation feels like a high
point, and not with you in feeling like it ultimately doesn't live up
to that. I think the thing for me is that just I'm so much more
invested in the standoff than in anything else.

WILLOW: So. Here we are.
BUFFY: Are we really gonna do this?
WILLOW: Come on, this is a huge deal for me! Six years as a side man,
and now I get to be the Slayer.
BUFFY: A killer isn't a Slayer. Being a Slayer means something you
can't conceive of.
WILLOW: Oh, Buffy. You really need to have every square inch of your
*** kicked.
BUFFY: Then show me what you got. And I'll show you what a Slayer
really is.

There's very little anyone can say to convince me that this isn't one
of the best moments of the series, and possibly in TV history. (By
the way, Buffy's part in all this provides plenty of substance for me
- this is more than just a crazy action episode, although that's
certainly a major part of its appeal.) This is a strong enough
reaction that I'm pretty much bathed in euphoric glow and unable to
process the existence of any shortcomings. I don't care much about
the fight coreography because that's rarely one of the show's biggest
strengths anyway. The rest of the episode could consist of a Nu and a
Croaker dancing around [silly reference, don't worry about it] and my
biggest memory would be the thrill of the standoff. Nothing could top
that climax... or so one thinks, until Giles blasts his way back into
the series.

> I don't know how much was intended to show Anya's heart as opposed to
> fitting her into the episode with the usual comic relief. But there it is
> whatever the intent, and it's Anya on her own showing caring, compassion and
> love for a friend in distress. (Also receiving by proxy her last great
> lesson on humanity from Xander.) It seems to me to be a big peak at the
> underlying heart that will bedevil her demon ways.

Peak or peek? But okay, that's another thing. The episode definitely
spends a lot of time on Anya's reactions, beyond her usual
wisecracking role. Whether she's just an audience surrogate or
whether we're supposed to get something important out of watching her
reactions to and assessments of Giles and Xander... well, I really
don't know. I struggle to see it as a noteworthy part of anyone's
story, and I feel like maybe it's supposed to be.

> > even on re-watch. And Buffy summing up the season is also sappy and
> > heavy-handed, the difference being that it's not such great TV.
>
> Yep. That's this episode's relatively weak part. Starting with the fall
> into the hole. I don't really mind the sentiment of Buffy finally seeing
> how she's preventing Dawn from growing, but as the final installment of
> Buffy's season long climb from her metaphorical grave, it just doesn't stack
> up to all that preceded it. Which makes gazing at the wonder of living
> somehow less poignant than it ought to be.

That's also why I don't feel the ending montage the way you do, even
with the X/W stuff, because as an ending to the episode and the
season, it feels more like part of Buffy's story than anything else.
A story which ends tepidly, despite being built out of serviceable
ideas.

> This trio of episodes as a whole, however, earn a very strong Excellent.
> This run (which I usually watch along with Seeing Red) is likely the most
> entertaining sequence of the series for me. I won't say the best - none of
> these episodes are top ten for the series. Just the ones I like to get out
> the popcorn for and watch in thrilling series.

The momentum of the run can go back further. From "Normal Again"
through the end of the season I'm pretty well hooked, despite not
loving every step of every episode. It all fits together to the point
where it feels like not only an extended story, but a tight one, with
every piece necessary and irreplaceable and stuff (although each hour
very much has its own character for me, more so than with other
serialized programs). The closing trilogy doesn't make sense without
being spurred by the kick of "Seeing Red," and so much of SR is a
direct extension from the ending of "Entropy," and the series wouldn't
be ready to move to that point yet if Buffy were still in her pre-NA
headspace... It's like it's channeling some of ATS's sense of epic
storytelling and spiking it with BTVS's expertise with group dynamics
and ability to do fantasy stories that capture the real-world human
experience.

> > (Is there a non-Buffy major character that
> > doesn't go evil or at least highly ambiguous at some point?)
>
> Tara.

And even she was an actor's choice away from being manifested by the
First.

> > For your
> > reference, I'm still going to try to vaguely approximate airdate order
> > during S7/S4, so the _Buffy_ threads will be posted first through disc
> > 4 or 5, then we'll switch it up.
>
> Someone posted a link once that had air dates including network re-runs. Do
> you have that - or a list - by any chance? I'm only interested in S6.

I just get 'em from Buffyworld (can't help you with the reruns). I
once made an all-on-one-page list of BTVS/ATS in airdate order, to
pass on to people, but I lost it.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:ac786fbf-8684-4520-a99e-d0dfcc28bdd3@62g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 21, 12:36 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:c57549c3-ffab-44ce-95c8-2c9dfc0f3b7d@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> I'm with you with the part where the confrontation feels like a high
> point, and not with you in feeling like it ultimately doesn't live up
> to that. I think the thing for me is that just I'm so much more
> invested in the standoff than in anything else.
>
> WILLOW: So. Here we are.
> BUFFY: Are we really gonna do this?
> WILLOW: Come on, this is a huge deal for me! Six years as a side man,
> and now I get to be the Slayer.
> BUFFY: A killer isn't a Slayer. Being a Slayer means something you
> can't conceive of.
> WILLOW: Oh, Buffy. You really need to have every square inch of your
> *** kicked.
> BUFFY: Then show me what you got. And I'll show you what a Slayer
> really is.

That's the point where it thrills - where it brings to mind Buffy/Angel in
Becoming and Buffy/Faith in Graduation Day. But those two pay off in the
follow through. This doesn't have much of anything after the initial face
off.


>> I don't know how much was intended to show Anya's heart as opposed to
>> fitting her into the episode with the usual comic relief. But there it
>> is
>> whatever the intent, and it's Anya on her own showing caring, compassion
>> and
>> love for a friend in distress. (Also receiving by proxy her last great
>> lesson on humanity from Xander.) It seems to me to be a big peak at the
>> underlying heart that will bedevil her demon ways.
>
> Peak or peek?

Oh, god, I meant peek. I'm curious about this but I sure don't think it's
an Anya high point.


>> This trio of episodes as a whole, however, earn a very strong Excellent.
>> This run (which I usually watch along with Seeing Red) is likely the most
>> entertaining sequence of the series for me. I won't say the best - none
>> of
>> these episodes are top ten for the series. Just the ones I like to get
>> out
>> the popcorn for and watch in thrilling series.
>
> The momentum of the run can go back further. From "Normal Again"
> through the end of the season I'm pretty well hooked, despite not
> loving every step of every episode. It all fits together to the point
> where it feels like not only an extended story, but a tight one, with
> every piece necessary and irreplaceable and stuff (although each hour
> very much has its own character for me, more so than with other
> serialized programs). The closing trilogy doesn't make sense without
> being spurred by the kick of "Seeing Red," and so much of SR is a
> direct extension from the ending of "Entropy," and the series wouldn't
> be ready to move to that point yet if Buffy were still in her pre-NA
> headspace... It's like it's channeling some of ATS's sense of epic
> storytelling and spiking it with BTVS's expertise with group dynamics
> and ability to do fantasy stories that capture the real-world human
> experience.

I'd suggest taking it back to Hells Bells, but I want to avoid injury.

Actually, that's almost my sense of the season starting with OMWF. Gone,
Doublmeat & OAFA don't drive the story that way, but for me the other 13 do,
making for a very coherent and well crafted run. That's something S3
doesn't do for me, even though I think it has comparable pieces.

Again I like your observation about this being simultaneously serialized and
episodic. This is likely a peak (not peek - nor pique) for that style, but
I think it's broadly been a characteristic of the series from the start.
Granted, early on - especially S1 - the ongoing part centered more on
character development than plot, but there was still a strong sense of
moving forward, changing. As I hope you recall from my S1 and S2 analysis
in this DVD re-run, even the S1 and S2 highly episodic sections had a lot of
underlying structure aimed at advancing the season.


>> > For your
>> > reference, I'm still going to try to vaguely approximate airdate order
>> > during S7/S4, so the _Buffy_ threads will be posted first through disc
>> > 4 or 5, then we'll switch it up.
>>
>> Someone posted a link once that had air dates including network re-runs.
>> Do
>> you have that - or a list - by any chance? I'm only interested in S6.
>
> I just get 'em from Buffyworld (can't help you with the reruns). I
> once made an all-on-one-page list of BTVS/ATS in airdate order, to
> pass on to people, but I lost it.

It's actually the reruns I'm after. Oh, well. It's a minor matter.

OBS

On Feb 21, 8:36 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 21, 12:36 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:c57549c3-ffab-44ce-95c8-2c9dfc0f3b7d@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Season Six, Episode 20: "Two To Go"
> > > What was that about crackling dialogue? William called TTG "an
> > > absolute wonderland of quotability, perhaps second only to
> > > Doppelgangland in that respect" last time around.
>
> > Yeah, but it bogs down in the endless confrontation at Rack's moving onto
> > the Buffy/Willow fight back at the Magic Box. Not that I object to the
> > sentiments. Willow's ridicule of Dawn is priceless. And there definitely
> > is a thrill in seeing Willow and Buffy face off. But the volume of words
> > really get in the way of this section and make for my most disappointing
> > scene in this trilogy - the Buffy/Willow fight. It ought to be a classic -
> > one of the highpoints of the series. The construct of power against power
> > with deep emotional connections brings to mind the Buffy/Angel confrontation
> > in Becoming and the Buffy/Faith fight in Graduation Day. And it feels that
> > way for a moment.
>
> > Doesn't live up to it though. The fight choreography teases at excellence
> > for a bit, but never gets there. Quickly enough it peters out with a
> > pathetic conclusion of a slight shove by Willow somehow knocking Buffy out
> > briefly as Willow discovers Anya. Meanwhile the talking is interminable -
> > coming on the heels of a talkfest at Racks. I know that the fight/talk
> > combination is a staple of these shows, but this one kind of thuds for me.
>
> I'm with you with the part where the confrontation feels like a high
> point, and not with you in feeling like it ultimately doesn't live up
> to that. I think the thing for me is that just I'm so much more
> invested in the standoff than in anything else.

Personally, I was way too distracted by Willow's stupidity to get
invested in anything. Seriously, Dark Willow has to be one of the
stupidest villains ever. How many times did she try the *exact same
spell* to kill Jonathon and Andrew after she saw it wasn't working?
And the way she did eventually decide to kill them was stupid as hell,
too. It would have been much easier for her to simply blast the
ceiling and let the resulting collapse kill them. Or telekinetically
pick up a bunch of weapons from the training room and use them to
skewer Jonathon and Andrew (like she tried to do to Glory back in
season 5 - it was a stupid tactic then, but it would have worked just
fine here).

Apparently absorbing too much dark magic kills brain cells. Let that
be a lesson to you, kids!

On Feb 22, 1:00 am, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 21, 8:36 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

>> I think the thing for me is that just I'm so much more
> > invested in the standoff than in anything else.
>
> Personally, I was way too distracted by Willow's stupidity to get
> invested in anything. Seriously, Dark Willow has to be one of the
> stupidest villains ever. How many times did she try the *exact same
> spell* to kill Jonathon and Andrew after she saw it wasn't working?
> And the way she did eventually decide to kill them was stupid as hell,
> too. It would have been much easier for her to simply blast the
> ceiling and let the resulting collapse kill them. Or telekinetically
> pick up a bunch of weapons from the training room and use them to
> skewer Jonathon and Andrew (like she tried to do to Glory back in
> season 5 - it was a stupid tactic then, but it would have worked just
> fine here).

I don't remember... two or three times, presumably with more power
each time? The episode doesn't really make it clear how the defensive
spell works, but it seems to be a pretty generalized barrier, at least
against direct magic. Would it work against physical things propelled
by magic, or could it be modified on the fly to do so? Is it anything
like the barrier spells Willow used in "Spiral?" This is the level of
detail that I'm not really into, although I'm sure some feel the show
should have rules and explain them clearly rather than making stuff up
(never really Joss's forte). (I'm leaving out the stuff from "Grave,"
because that's more about testing Buffy.)

-AOQ

On Feb 22, 1:02 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 22, 1:00 am, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21, 8:36 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >> I think the thing for me is that just I'm so much more
> > > invested in the standoff than in anything else.
>
> > Personally, I was way too distracted by Willow's stupidity to get
> > invested in anything. Seriously, Dark Willow has to be one of the
> > stupidest villains ever. How many times did she try the *exact same
> > spell* to kill Jonathon and Andrew after she saw it wasn't working?
> > And the way she did eventually decide to kill them was stupid as hell,
> > too. It would have been much easier for her to simply blast the
> > ceiling and let the resulting collapse kill them. Or telekinetically
> > pick up a bunch of weapons from the training room and use them to
> > skewer Jonathon and Andrew (like she tried to do to Glory back in
> > season 5 - it was a stupid tactic then, but it would have worked just
> > fine here).
>
> I don't remember... two or three times, presumably with more power
> each time? The episode doesn't really make it clear how the defensive
> spell works, but it seems to be a pretty generalized barrier, at least
> against direct magic. Would it work against physical things propelled
> by magic, or could it be modified on the fly to do so?

Well, if it did, it would work against Willow's magically-powered
fists, too, rendering the spell she cast on herself just as pointless.
And as for modifying it on the fly, Anya was reading the spell out of
a book. I don't think Willow would have paused and waited for her to
look up new page numbers.

> Is it anything
> like the barrier spells Willow used in "Spiral?" This is the level of
> detail that I'm not really into, although I'm sure some feel the show
> should have rules and explain them clearly rather than making stuff up
> (never really Joss's forte).

I'm not interested in getting into the tiny details of how this spell
or that spell worked; I'm interested in characters not acting like
complete idiots, like Dark Willow did here. That kind of thing takes
me out of the show.

On Feb 24, 1:29 am, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 22, 1:02 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 22, 1:00 am, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 21, 8:36 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > >> I think the thing for me is that just I'm so much more
> > > > invested in the standoff than in anything else.
>
> > > Personally, I was way too distracted by Willow's stupidity to get
> > > invested in anything. Seriously, Dark Willow has to be one of the
> > > stupidest villains ever. How many times did she try the *exact same
> > > spell* to kill Jonathon and Andrew after she saw it wasn't working?
> > > And the way she did eventually decide to kill them was stupid as hell,
> > > too. It would have been much easier for her to simply blast the
> > > ceiling and let the resulting collapse kill them. Or telekinetically
> > > pick up a bunch of weapons from the training room and use them to
> > > skewer Jonathon and Andrew (like she tried to do to Glory back in
> > > season 5 - it was a stupid tactic then, but it would have worked just
> > > fine here).
>
> > I don't remember... two or three times, presumably with more power
> > each time? The episode doesn't really make it clear how the defensive
> > spell works, but it seems to be a pretty generalized barrier, at least
> > against direct magic. Would it work against physical things propelled
> > by magic, or could it be modified on the fly to do so?
>
> Well, if it did, it would work against Willow's magically-powered
> fists, too, rendering the spell she cast on herself just as pointless.


Yeah, that's true. Thinking about the scene in more detail, she
spends a chunk of time figuring out just how strong the counter-spell
is, like she's intrigued and determined to overpower it. Then she
moves on and tries something else. The "stupidity" doesn't bother me
because Willow's often so sensual (so to speak) about magic, soaking
it up, prodding at it, and so on. Beating someone to death or
blasting them apart is probably way more satisfying than trying to
drop chunks of ceiling at them. Willow's agenda isn't necessarily to
kill her victims as quickly and efficiently as possible. She took her
sweet time killing Warren in the previous episode too.

-AOQ

I started writing this sometime last month, and I'm going to finish it if
it's the last thing I do. (Which is not to say I'll make it *good* or
anything....)

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 19: "Villains"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Solomon
..
> villain, without ever taking a step that doesn't seem like her. Plus,
> revenge is fun,

And that's *exactly* the effect ME is going for! But seriously, with Dark
Willow here, as well as the Stewart-demon in HB and Anya getting her
vengeance on again, and with Holtz and Connor, not to mention Angel
himself, on the other show, 2001-02 turned out to be the year of vengeance
for ME. I guess next year will be the year of the heroes being confronted
by enemies that seem to be impossible to fight. (Maybe that could also be
the Alliance on Firefly?) BtVS S4 and AtS S1 were obviously the year of
the hero finding his or her way in a new environment. And S5/S2?
Obviously the year of dealing with crazy evil chicks and pseudo-medieval
warriors.

> and I love the look at Warren as things start to not
> go his way and he gets to die painfully in full awareness of how
> pathetic he is.

It couldn't happen to a more deserving fellow. The abrupt unravelling of
his attempt at cool villainy in the demon bar is almost as satisfying as
watching Willow dissect his mind (not his body). One little detail I like
is Rack asking him why, if he led the Trio, his guys aren't helping him
now. It's Warren's own fault that he's in so much trouble, and his own
fault that he's now facing it all alone.

> quotables? Along with its great lines, or at least great deliveries
> of lines like "I'm not coming back," "Villains" is also teeming with
> non-quotables, leaden chunks of ponderous abstract statements that
> make for the opposite of a crackling conversation. If anyone wants to
> make a list, I'll start with "there are limits to what we can do.
> There should be. Willow doesn't want to believe that. And now she's
> messing with forces that want to hurt her."

That one particular bit doesn't sparkle, true, but it isn't nearly bad
enough to take me out of the moment. I can buy it as Buffy's way of
articulating a principle at a moment when most of her usual humorous
conversational quirks would be badly out of place. (Maybe you can even
see the ponderous and abstract aspect as foreshadowing of Buffy's groping
efforts at being a general in S7.) I do agree, though, that it would have
been even better if they had come up with a more concrete and vivid way
for her to say it. Xander explaining his feelings by saying "I've had
blood on my hands all day" -- now that's concrete and vivd. ...

But anyway, I like this whole scene. I like the way the characters cover
a lot of topics in relatively few words (unlike the in-the-name-of-Osiris
scene from the teaser), yet without feeling rushed. I like the way the
ghost of Joyce hangs over it -- even if no one else sees Buffy's hairstyle
as reminiscent of Joyce's, you all have to admit that her picture is
clearly visible in the background for a reason. Between being raised from
the dead and losing Joyce, Buffy certainly does have the first-hand
experience AOQ mentions in his TTG section. And I like being reminded
that when the going gets tough, Buffy, Xander and Dawn can have serious
disagreements without getting into a fight.

> you into trivia) an Excellent, since it's exciting enough to almost
> deserve one, especially once you throw in that mind-blowing ending
> sequence.

BTW, this was the first time I brought myself to watch the flaying scene
since the Season 8 comics started. I had even watched the whole Seeing
Red-Grave run last fall, but skipped over the final few moments of
Villains. I guess I was afraid that the thought of Amy watching
offscreen, about to save and/or resurrect Warren, would spoil it for me.
But when the time came, I didn't think of S8 at all. This was partly
because I've had so much time to assimilate TLWH, but mainly a tribute to
the power of those final scenes.

> Rating: Good

Last time I put Villains on the Good/Excellent border. Today I'm feeling
more decisive, or less precise, so I'll just say Excellent. Aside from
the book-sucking and Warren-flaying, I really like the gradual development
of Dark Willow, and what I can only call the emotional porn of Buffy,
Xander and Dawn struggling to deal with their mounting losses. But the
episodes on either side of it are still higher Excellents.

> Season Six, Episode 20: "Two To Go"
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Bill Norton
..
> What was that about crackling dialogue? William called TTG "an
> absolute wonderland of quotability, perhaps second only to
> Doppelgangland in that respect" last time around.

My biggest laugh this time might have been at "Okay, first of all those
were sonic disrupters. Second of all, you are sadness personified!"

Meanwhile, Sadness Personified's mantra of "We didn't do anything" is not
especially quotable, but it still infuriates me every time. Looking back
on him with S7 (and AtS S5) in mind, I think the key is that Andrew is the
ultimate empty man. He's so weak-willed that Warren was able to warp him
into a nasty villain, and after a crisis got through to him in
Storyteller, a better leader will warp him just as sincerely into a
fighter for good. But if he had met Buffy and friends first, then lost
them and found Warren, he could just as easily have made the same
transition in the other direction.

> It's strange
> trading the depression and high drama of much of S6 for what's
> basically a live-action comic book, but I certainly won't complain if
> it reminds me why I've gotten so much enjoyment out of a few fast-
> paced movies and comics in my time.

Of course it's not just an action-adventure story. The emotional content
is still there, just as it is in the best comic books and action movies.

> Now that she's taken out Tara's
> killer, a more Willowish sense of fun emerges from our favorite black-
> eyed girl; she's enjoying being the star of the show even more than I
> enjoy watching it. Why is evil so much fun?

Because it's so liberating, of course! (Note: I realize your question was
rhetorical.) Willow doesn't just enjoy the prospect of completing her
vengeance, she seizes the opportunity to act on all sorts of buried
impulses, from shutting Dawn up to surpassing Buffy. Only the evil one
has access to this level of fun, of course. Note that Willow keeps
throwing insults like "Superbitch" and the *** thing at Buffy, but Buffy
never responds in kind. Even as her anger builds, Buffy never finds the
slightest bit of fun or emotional fulfillment in fighting her best friend.

The big Buffy-Willow fight scene remains one of my favorites. OBS is, of
course, entirely right about the lame moment when Buffy gets stunned just
long enough for Willow to take out Anya, but for me it's not lame enough
to seriously hurt the fight as a whole.

> Also one of the few
> (only?) times _Buffy_ goes for a surprise character appearance at the
> end; that's normally more ATS's territory.

Maybe Adam at the end of The I in Team could count as another example,
though he was a new character. Anyway, Giles's reappearance was a thrill
back in 2002, and it still is now.

> Rating: Excellent

Excellent for me too (up from a less decisive borderline Good/Excellent
last time).

> Season Six, Episode 21: "Grave"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner

Have you noticed how Dark Willow's eyes change from normal to all-black
and back again over the course of this disk? If there's a significance to
this it eludes me -- the changes don't seem to correspond to changes in
Willow's mood, her current level of magic power, or anything else. But it
makes for one great little effect: when she tells Giles "I've gone pro,"
and we can see her eyes fill up with black.

> fit, and then executing them in a decent but flawed manner. Giles's
> reaction to Buffy telling him about her life caught me off guard but
> makes sense as something they both needed; from there, the
> interactions are intriguing in where there's healing and where there's
> still distance (also, Anya vying for attention always kills me).
> Sadly it brings back all my issues about Giles abandoning her, reduced
> to a brief brushed-off apology, like the show's letting him off the
> hook - granted, it's the season finale, we don't have time to sort
> through every emotional reaction anyone's ever had.

I don't agree when Buffy says that Giles did the right thing, but I can
understand her feeling that way now. So much has happened since Giles
left, both good and bad, that by now a Buffy who had gone through all of
it *with* Giles would be an alternate universe Buffy, almost unimaginable
to her now. It would be almost like imagining her life if Angel hadn't
lost his soul, or something.

> The plotting
> certainly has its moments: particularly, Willow becoming more of a
> threat to the world the more she gets focused on fixing people's
> problems is too perfect to pass up. Unfortunately, there's enough of
> the plot that involves outside forces being brought in out of nowhere,
> is relayed to us by Giles lying on the floor and slowly mumbling bits
> of exposition, and only the bits that the script has arbitrarily given
> him permission to reveal. The climax featuring a carpenter saving
> humanity through his love (there's a reason it's a classic, I guess)
> is pretty sappy and heavy-handed, but damned if it doesn't work great,
> even on re-watch.

Willow raising the temple is PF cool, even if the effigy of Proserpexa
does look a bit like an illuminated lawn decoration from Satanic
Christmas. (And I'm not sure about the idea that an earthquake buried
something at the *top* of a high bluff. Maybe that goes to support the
theory that it wasn't a natural earthquake.) However, while it looks
cool, it does feel a little contrived. I wish they had worked a mention
of the temple into an earlier episode, to lay the foundations. Oh well.
IIRC the commentary track reveals that DF meant for us to understand that
the temple was buried by the same earthquake that buried the Master, and
apparently didn't realize that the phrase "70 years ago" would mean a
different year in 2002 than in 1997.

> And Buffy summing up the season is also sappy and
> heavy-handed, the difference being that it's not such great TV. I'm
> not so convinced that the symbolism needs to be spelled out so
> bluntly, but even if we take it as a given that it does, everything
> from the underwhelming special effects to the clunky staging to the
> soppy speech falls substantially flat, leaving one's last impression
> of the amazing S6 as something less than amazing.

Buffy's final speech certainly should have been trimmed down -- which
would have been easy, since she hits many of the same points several times
each. And the walking-into-the-sunny-garden part of the final montage was
a bit *too* happy, though it's balanced by the sadder parts of the
montage. But there are other parts of the ending where I like the
execution as much as the idea. Willow's heartbreaking sobbing in Xander's
arms is one, and the symbolism of Buffy crawling out of the grave is
another -- "obvious" would be an understatement, but it really works for
me.

The dirt monsters are another weak part, but I like Willow's condescending
attitude when she sends them. "Aw, Buffy still wants to save the world.
Isn't that cute! Here, have some monsters to fight while I put the world
out of its misery." She's still Dark Willow, now beyond getting pleasure
at hurting her friends, but still a smug, arrogant bitca.

> Willow's head-rush isn't as excruciating as I'd expected it to be on
> re-watching, if you care.

Glad to hear it.

> Rating: Good

I'll give it a Good too.

> Additional comments on S6D6: I managed to make it through the thread
> without mentioning (except elliptically here) a certain character who
> dominates all the discussions despite appearing for a grand total of
> maybe four minutes on this disc (a few seconds of which are really
> really important, but still)...

An interesting choice, unusual, perhaps controversial; but I liked it.
Since you mention that character, this time around I proved to myself that
I could FF or track-skip over every Spike scene on this disc without
detracting one bit from the climactic story. All of them, even the
legitimately important part, are really setup for S7. They could also be
called a resolution to Spike's S6 story, I guess, but they still aren't
part of disc six's story at all.

(But I do like the irony of Xander's comment that "after last night, all
bets are off about what Spike will do." For some reason this is the most
enjoyable of the disc's ironic Spike-related comments. Maybe I
appreciated it more because it got to work its irony on its own, instead
of being spotlighted as the lead-in to another Spike scene.)

> doesn't go evil or at least highly ambiguous at some point?) Also, if
> nothing else, pre-veiny jet-black Willow is incredibly hot.

See? Everything in Dark Willow is rooted in Just Willow....

> My ratings ticked upward for a couple episodes, but otherwise stayed
> the same on re-watching. I'm not showing my numerical work, because I
> don't think anyone else cares, but in terms of both mean and
> proportion of good episodes, the numbers agree with my gut feeling
> that S6 is pretty clearly the second-best season so far, behind Season
> Three.

For me, S6 is probably the season that has improved the most in hindsight.
In the old days (2004 or 2005), I used to put S6 and S7 in the same
category, as a cut below S4 and S5, which in turn were a cut below the
golden age of S3 and the second half of S2. But now, while I'm not
positive I'd call S6 my second favorite season, these days it's definitely
a candidate.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

> Meanwhile, Sadness Personified's mantra of "We didn't do anything" is not
> especially quotable, but it still infuriates me every time. Looking back
> on him with S7 (and AtS S5) in mind, I think the key is that Andrew is the
> ultimate empty man. He's so weak-willed that Warren was able to warp him
> into a nasty villain, and after a crisis got through to him in

i think when sadness confronts jonath-n slash the first
thats a genuine statement of defiance
hes still a power groupie and still weak
but at least hes got a conscience and some small spark of morality
and swimmers ear

> Willow raising the temple is PF cool, even if the effigy of Proserpexa
> does look a bit like an illuminated lawn decoration from Satanic
> Christmas. (And I'm not sure about the idea that an earthquake buried
> something at the *top* of a high bluff. Maybe that goes to support the
> theory that it wasn't a natural earthquake.) However, while it looks

earthquakes dont bury things anyway
mudslides bury things

i just assumed it was wilkins

> each. And the walking-into-the-sunny-garden part of the final montage was
> a bit *too* happy, though it's balanced by the sadder parts of the
> montage. But there are other parts of the ending where I like the

there are lot of people who would just like a few moments of too happy
the story isnt over - buffy still has to die again
but at least for a moment she can have peace

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

On Mar 5, 10:06 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> I started writing this sometime last month, and I'm going to finish it if
> it's the last thing I do. (Which is not to say I'll make it *good* or
> anything....)

Here's to manufactured triumph!

> Meanwhile, Sadness Personified's mantra of "We didn't do anything" is not
> especially quotable, but it still infuriates me every time. Looking back
> on him with S7 (and AtS S5) in mind, I think the key is that Andrew is the
> ultimate empty man. He's so weak-willed that Warren was able to warp him
> into a nasty villain, and after a crisis got through to him in
> Storyteller, a better leader will warp him just as sincerely into a
> fighter for good. But if he had met Buffy and friends first, then lost
> them and found Warren, he could just as easily have made the same
> transition in the other direction.

It's always a bit weird seeing him as one of the principals in S7 for
that reason. The weird thing is how well it mostly works, but how I
think of him as a source of humor who's tied very specifically to that
time and place. When the character appears in another setting (i.e.
ATS, the comic), he's not nearly as enjoyable.

> Willow raising the temple is PF cool, even if the effigy of Proserpexa
> does look a bit like an illuminated lawn decoration from Satanic
> Christmas. (And I'm not sure about the idea that an earthquake buried
> something at the *top* of a high bluff. Maybe that goes to support the
> theory that it wasn't a natural earthquake.) However, while it looks
> cool, it does feel a little contrived. I wish they had worked a mention
> of the temple into an earlier episode, to lay the foundations.

The temple (and to a lesser degree, the coven)... where'd all these
plot points come from? I guess they figured the explanation would be
boring, but if you don't establish things before throwing them in,
people get the impression that the "plot" only exists to serve the
character moments or something. That's a feeling I've of course never
once gotten from anything else in the ME canon.

> Oh well.
> IIRC the commentary track reveals that DF meant for us to understand that
> the temple was buried by the same earthquake that buried the Master, and
> apparently didn't realize that the phrase "70 years ago" would mean a
> different year in 2002 than in 1997.

I guess when you're used to your evil coming from longer farther in
the past, when a few years don't make a difference in how you refer to
it...

> > Additional comments on S6D6: I managed to make it through the thread
> > without mentioning (except elliptically here) a certain character who
> > dominates all the discussions despite appearing for a grand total of
> > maybe four minutes on this disc (a few seconds of which are really
> > really important, but still)...
>
> An interesting choice, unusual, perhaps controversial; but I liked it.
> Since you mention that character, this time around I proved to myself that
> I could FF or track-skip over every Spike scene on this disc without
> detracting one bit from the climactic story. All of them, even the
> legitimately important part, are really setup for S7. They could also be
> called a resolution to Spike's S6 story, I guess, but they still aren't
> part of disc six's story at all.

I'm not sure how much I like it, but the double ending comes because
Spike's story is the only one that can't be called a resolution.
Every BTVS season has a bona fide *ending*, but then S6 also has an
extra little tag that's itself simultaneously cliffhanger and Big
Reveal.

-AOQ

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> i think when sadness confronts jonath-n slash the first
> thats a genuine statement of defiance
> hes still a power groupie and still weak
> but at least hes got a conscience and some small spark of morality
> and swimmers ear

True, he did show glimmerings of a conscience even before the Storyteller
breakthrough. I still kinda suspect that it was the influence of Buffy
and her friends that brought it out, combined with an increasing
dissatisfaction with Ghost Warren slash The First. There's little sign of
such glimmerings before he became the Slayer's guest-age [with air
quotes]. You could even look at it as a sort of Stockholm Syndrome. Or
maybe proof that Andrew's just bi, not gay -- he finds himself turning to
the side of righteousness after living in a house full of cute female
warriors for good.

>> each. And the walking-into-the-sunny-garden part of the final montage was
>> a bit *too* happy, though it's balanced by the sadder parts of the
>> montage. But there are other parts of the ending where I like the
>
> there are lot of people who would just like a few moments of too happy
> the story isnt over - buffy still has to die again
> but at least for a moment she can have peace

And she certainly deserves it. I just find the presentation a little too
over-the-top, with all the sunshine and tons of flowers and whatnot. This
is where the balance with the Willow-Xander shots helps out, reminding us
of all that Buffy and the others have been through to deserve this happy
moment.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

> quotes]. You could even look at it as a sort of Stockholm Syndrome. Or
> maybe proof that Andrew's just bi, not gay -- he finds himself turning to
> the side of righteousness after living in a house full of cute female
> warriors for good.

behind every great man
there is a woman with sharp scythe

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's always a bit weird seeing him as one of the principals in S7 for
> that reason. The weird thing is how well it mostly works, but how I
> think of him as a source of humor who's tied very specifically to that
> time and place. When the character appears in another setting (i.e.
> ATS, the comic), he's not nearly as enjoyable.

Yeah. I would have been just as happy if he had quietly faded away after
Chosen. Nothing he's done since then (really, since Storyteller) has
really added much to the Buffyverse. He still earns an occasional laugh
from me, no denying it, but is it really enough to merit the screen
time/page space he's gotten? I'm not so sure.

Admittedly Andrew did guest star in one of my favorite AtS S5 episodes,
The Gir-- Just kidding! I mean Damage, of course. But while he worked
well enough, he certainly wasn't what made the episode.

> The temple (and to a lesser degree, the coven)... where'd all these
> plot points come from? I guess they figured the explanation would be
> boring, but if you don't establish things before throwing them in,
> people get the impression that the "plot" only exists to serve the
> character moments or something. That's a feeling I've of course never
> once gotten from anything else in the ME canon.

Of course.... It's just a little frustrating because establishing these
things a few episodes ago would have been *easy*, if only they had thought
to do it.

>> IIRC the commentary track reveals that DF meant for us to understand that
>> the temple was buried by the same earthquake that buried the Master, and
>> apparently didn't realize that the phrase "70 years ago" would mean a
>> different year in 2002 than in 1997.
>
> I guess when you're used to your evil coming from longer farther in
> the past, when a few years don't make a difference in how you refer to
> it...

Of course I goofed there myself, in my eagerness to act all sarcastic.
In S1 Giles definitely refers to the earthquake as being 60 years before,
not 70. So I'll just go back inside my glass house and stop throwing
stones at poor David Fury.

>> > Additional comments on S6D6: I managed to make it through the thread
>> > without mentioning (except elliptically here) a certain character who
>> > dominates all the discussions despite appearing for a grand total of
>> > maybe four minutes on this disc (a few seconds of which are really
>> > really important, but still)...
>>
>> An interesting choice, unusual, perhaps controversial; but I liked it.
>> Since you mention that character, this time around I proved to myself that
>> I could FF or track-skip over every Spike scene on this disc without
>> detracting one bit from the climactic story. All of them, even the
>> legitimately important part, are really setup for S7. They could also be
>> called a resolution to Spike's S6 story, I guess, but they still aren't
>> part of disc six's story at all.
>
> I'm not sure how much I like it, but the double ending comes because
> Spike's story is the only one that can't be called a resolution.
> Every BTVS season has a bona fide *ending*, but then S6 also has an
> extra little tag that's itself simultaneously cliffhanger and Big
> Reveal.

If I'm readin you right, there may be some confusion here. The
"interesting choice" that I liked so much wasn't the Spike part of this
disc, it was your decision not to mention him at all. So there -- praise!
But I do think that, given the combined goals of springing the Spike
changeup on us and not having him entirely disappear for three episodes,
their approach was pretty reasonable. I might have appreciated more
variety and less shirtless fighting in those Spike scenes, but that's just
me.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

On Mar 7, 6:42 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It's always a bit weird seeing him as one of the principals in S7 for
> > that reason. The weird thing is how well it mostly works, but how I
> > think of him as a source of humor who's tied very specifically to that
> > time and place. When the character appears in another setting (i.e.
> > ATS, the comic), he's not nearly as enjoyable.
>
> Yeah. I would have been just as happy if he had quietly faded away after
> Chosen. Nothing he's done since then (really, since Storyteller) has
> really added much to the Buffyverse. He still earns an occasional laugh
> from me, no denying it, but is it really enough to merit the screen
> time/page space he's gotten? I'm not so sure.

No, it's not.

> Admittedly Andrew did guest star in one of my favorite AtS S5 episodes,
> The Gir-- Just kidding! I mean Damage, of course. But while he worked
> well enough, he certainly wasn't what made the episode.

Yeah, yeah, I know you're one of those TGIQ pseudo-fans. Flaunt your
relative lack of taste or something.

On the topic of Andrew, you also muse about whether he's "bi rather
than just gay." The hypothesis I'm tossing around in my head right
now treats Andrew as basically asexual, or having kinda a prepubescent
worldview. He fixates on and tries to emulate people like Spike or
Warren or Capt. Archer because he thinks they're cool, in a comic-book
hero/villain sort of way. Like many young boys who haven't gotten
interested in girls (or boys, or whatever) yet, you know he fantasizes
about being like Robin when he reads a _Batman_ comic. A lot of what
Andrew knows about love he learned from watching _Star Wars_ and
reading paperback swords-and-sorcery books, so he's a fan of Troo Wuv
stories like Kennedy's quest to win the tortured heart of her witchy
lover, but afterwards when they're just making out, he gets bored.
He's much more aware of sex than the ten-year-old I'm comparing him
to, but I don't get a sense that he cares much about it.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:c57549c3-ffab-44ce-95c8-2c9dfc0f3b7d@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: These threads would like to test that theory.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 19: "Villains"
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Rating: Good
>
>
> Season Six, Episode 20: "Two To Go"
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Bill Norton
>
> Rating: Excellent
>
>
> Season Six, Episode 21: "Grave"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Rating: Good

I haven't rewatched any of these and none of them are favourites. I rate TTG
as very low Decent, the others as Weak (with Villains very low Weak). They
are respectively my 137th, 125th and 127th favourite BtVS episodes, and
21st, 18th, and 19th best in season 6.

I guess I'm not a fan of Dark Willow. Her motivation to seek bloody revenge
on Tara's killer is perfectly plausible, that to kill his friends who had
nothing to do with her death is illogical, but not totally implausible. Her
attack on Buffy is kind of odd in the sense that her hand appears forced in
that direction when really it isn't (she could have waited to kill Jonathon
and the other one when Buffy wasn't around). But her switch to trying to
destroy the world (and ostensibly out of empathy with the suffering
millions) is out of nowhere. The only thing more bizarre is the idea of
Giles and the coven deliberately coming up with the plan of setting her up
to do that, and then save the situation using only Xander.

And then there's the thing where after Willow goes berko following the death
of Tara, there is no more character influence on the outcome. It is all just
a matter of how much magical power the writers allow Willow and her
opponents, and the limits they put on that power. Even Willow's failure to
destroy the world is not presented as her changing her mind - only that the
emotions aroused by yellow crayon Xander interfere with her magic power.

Ostensibly it is Grave that contains the worst of these transgressions, but
I give it enough of a pass to lift it above Villains because of Buffy's
succinct summary of everything that has happened since Giles left to bring
Giles up to speed. It does open up the tempting possibility of skipping
everything in season 6 after Tabula Rasa, and just using that helpful
summary to bring yourself up to speed on what passed after that. The only
drawback to that is that you would miss Normal Again.


--
Apteryx

<chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:13t3kmbo9q7pte0@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's always a bit weird seeing him as one of the principals in S7 for
>> that reason. The weird thing is how well it mostly works, but how I
>> think of him as a source of humor who's tied very specifically to that
>> time and place. When the character appears in another setting (i.e.
>> ATS, the comic), he's not nearly as enjoyable.
>
> Yeah. I would have been just as happy if he had quietly faded away after
> Chosen. Nothing he's done since then (really, since Storyteller) has
> really added much to the Buffyverse.

In S7 after Storyteller he has some good scenes with Spike, connects with
Anya in a fairly defining scene for her, and especially has the moment of
describing Anya's death to Xander. I suppose these aren't Buffyverse peaks,
but I think they're valuable contributions that make his presence to the end
well worthwhile.

I like his AtS contribution, but don't think they're important. They're
mainly used as Buffy by proxy, which is disappointing in that there's no
Buffy, but effective in emphasizing that Buffy isn't beholden to them
anymore.

I'm reserving judgment on S8 since I'm way behind you guys, having read only
the first 5 issues so far.

OBS

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:5d988712-1e53-4ff1-9b0b-b568c9b7aa50@60g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 7, 6:42 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

> On the topic of Andrew, you also muse about whether he's "bi rather
> than just gay." The hypothesis I'm tossing around in my head right
> now treats Andrew as basically asexual, or having kinda a prepubescent
> worldview. He fixates on and tries to emulate people like Spike or
> Warren or Capt. Archer because he thinks they're cool, in a comic-book
> hero/villain sort of way. Like many young boys who haven't gotten
> interested in girls (or boys, or whatever) yet, you know he fantasizes
> about being like Robin when he reads a _Batman_ comic. A lot of what
> Andrew knows about love he learned from watching _Star Wars_ and
> reading paperback swords-and-sorcery books, so he's a fan of Troo Wuv
> stories like Kennedy's quest to win the tortured heart of her witchy
> lover, but afterwards when they're just making out, he gets bored.
> He's much more aware of sex than the ten-year-old I'm comparing him
> to, but I don't get a sense that he cares much about it.

I 90% agree with you on that. My hesitation is that I think his S6
attraction to Warren went deeper, though I don't think he grasped what that
pointed to. And never got far enough for him to have to confront the
notion.

> I'm reserving judgment on S8 since I'm way behind you guys, having read only
> the first 5 issues so far.

oh

so you dont know about the blue food yet

youll love it

arf meow arf - i dont like squishy
i think i hit a wookie on the expressway
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

On Mar 10, 3:09 am, "Apteryx" <apte...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> I guess I'm not a fan of Dark Willow. Her motivation to seek bloody revenge
> on Tara's killer is perfectly plausible, that to kill his friends who had
> nothing to do with her death is illogical, but not totally implausible. Her
> attack on Buffy is kind of odd in the sense that her hand appears forced in
> that direction when really it isn't (she could have waited to kill Jonathon
> and the other one when Buffy wasn't around). But her switch to trying to
> destroy the world (and ostensibly out of empathy with the suffering
> millions) is out of nowhere.

She's head-rushing, and overwhelmed with the sensation of said
millions. Her response - trying to wave her hand and make things
better whilst in fact threatening more harm than good - is just too
perfect to pass up for a writer. It's spelling out the story of her
life writ large, the way shows like this tend to do.

> The only thing more bizarre is the idea of
> Giles and the coven deliberately coming up with the plan of setting her up
> to do that, and then save the situation using only Xander.

That wasn't the plan. Plan A was to stop her by overpowering her.
Plan B was that if she defeated Giles and absorbed his magic, it would
awaken her humanity enough to make her back down. Giles didn't plan
for the world-destroying, or Xander.

> Even Willow's failure to
> destroy the world is not presented as her changing her mind - only that the
> emotions aroused by yellow crayon Xander interfere with her magic power.

That sentence is just so completely wrong that all one can do is stare
at it, possibly with gaping.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0c509d8-999d-4270-9412-fa635f1c5f3e@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 10, 3:09 am, "Apteryx" <apte...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> Even Willow's failure to
>> destroy the world is not presented as her changing her mind - only that
>> the
>> emotions aroused by yellow crayon Xander interfere with her magic power.
>
> That sentence is just so completely wrong that all one can do is stare
> at it, possibly with gaping.

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/122_tran.html

"XANDER: (panting) I ... love y-
WILLOW: Shut up!!

Now she does throw a blast of magic at him, and he staggers backward but
doesn't fall down. Willow still holds her hand out, a little bit of magic
crackling around it but not as much as she had expected. She looks surprised
and anxious. Xander moves slowly toward her.

XANDER: I love you, Willow.
WILLOW: Stop!

She sends another magic blast, but it's weak and barely hurts Xander at all.
He continues walking toward her. Willow continues holding out her hand and
making the magic gesture, but nothing happens. She starts to get teary."


--
Apteryx

This seems to me like a classic example of the person who wrote the
transcript imposing their own ideas on the show. :-)

"Apteryx" <apteryx@xtra.co.nz> writes:

>"XANDER: (panting) I ... love y-
>WILLOW: Shut up!!
>
>Now she does throw a blast of magic at him, and he staggers backward but
>doesn't fall down. Willow still holds her hand out, a little bit of magic
>crackling around it but not as much as she had expected. She looks surprised
>and anxious. Xander moves slowly toward her.
>
>XANDER: I love you, Willow.
>WILLOW: Stop!
>
>She sends another magic blast, but it's weak and barely hurts Xander at all.
>He continues walking toward her. Willow continues holding out her hand and
>making the magic gesture, but nothing happens. She starts to get teary."


Try this as an equally valid alternative:

XANDER: (panting) I ... love y-
WILLOW: Shut up!!

She throws another blast of magic at him, but her heart isn't in it
this time; he staggers backward but doesn't fall down. Willow stares
at her hand, the magic still crackling around it, a look of distress
on her face as what she's doing starts to sink in. Xander moves slowly
towards her.

XANDER: I love you, Willow.
WILLOW: Stop!

She sends another magic blast, but it's weak and barely hurts Xander
at all. He continues walking toward her. She continues going through
the motions of making the magical gesture, but nothing happens. The
dark magic is losing its grip on her heart, and she starts to become
tearful.



Stephen