A reminder: I think it's pretty safe to say these threads are not
going to see anybody that's invisible.


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 1: "Lessons"
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: David Solomon

And Season Seven begins with... The Adventures Of Buffy And Dawn Going
To School. I know they wanted SHS to be a big part of the show again,
but it seems to have gotten largely lost in the shuffle. The result
is a ghost story that feels fairly standard, apart from the
potentially intriguing but misconceived Buffy/Spike meeting. I mean,
I enjoy "Lessons" pretty well for a few of the scares and all the
Jossian one-liners and of course the cameos in that final sequence
(which is itself a pretty good "crescendo of ominous"). But outside
the teaser and last scene it doesn't set the thematic stage for the
year as much as some season premieres, and I have to side with those
who count it as on the thin side, simply settling for being a pretty
good minor episode.
Rating: Good


Season Seven, Episode 2: "Beneath You"
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Director: Nick Marck

This one doesn't entirely do it for me, and it's in part because
"Beneath You" is BTVS at its most into itself. That's very rarely
something I mind in the heavily insular continuity-heavy TV series I
tend to favor. But here I'm not so into the show being so into itself
(now I know how Dave Matthews feels: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39670
). It takes some time to sit around and discuss Spike's opening
attempt to help while throwing a veneer of changelessness over his
issues. But beyond that, there's also several hours available to have
him hump a cross while obliquely referencing a whole bunch of whatever
from throughout his life and the history of the universe. The
straightforward monster story serves as an excuse to have the
characters sit around and argue and discuss their shared history. No
matter how energetically it doesn't happen, not a whole lot really
happens, and one has to wonder whether the show's going anywhere at
this point. I'm not denying the energy of some of those insular
moments, like the chaos in the Bronze, but that's one of the only
times the episode really steps all the way back to achieve a good look
at the wild Scooby in its natural social habitat. I remember BY for
Spike; the fact that it's also a bit of an Anya episode is
overshadowed by a bigger one coming up. I go back and forth on
whether or not this is a required step on the way to "Selfless,"
telling Anya that she'll have to take responsibility for (and by
extension, be) herself before the episode in which she has to learn
it.
Rating: Decent


Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
Writer: Jane Espenson
Director: James A. Contner

So it's time to re-integrate Willow back into the main cast without
throwing aside the extreme places things went last season. That means
slotting off yet another week for a quieter story that takes its time,
and you know what? S7's good at that. Even the biggest episode of
the first half of the year (CWDP) is slow and touchy-feely, and the
show seems more comfortable in that realm than it does with epic good
and evil at this point in its life. STSP is a bit cerebral until the
explanations of what's going on, but it's not a dry intellectual
exercise. There's a sense of longing that follows the core trio
through the episode that's a major component of Anya and Spike's
appearances as well. That longing for each others' company is what
will be most important for both the characters and the viewer in
welcoming Willow back as uncritically, relative speaking, as happens,
and STSP sells me fully on that reunion. How well Gnarl works depends
a lot on what sort of mood I'm in (you'll remember I loved him the
first time around), Paralyzed Willow is consistently one of the hour's
few weak spots, and Posable Dawn almost always gets a laugh out of me
at some point in the sequences. Whether or not one likes Gnarl's
attitude, his method of killing is certainly disgusting, and I think
that kind of grotesqueness works for me in any mood. There was some
discussion last time around about whether Willow is being punished by
an unimaginative and literal-minded sadist of a writing team. I think
the opposite is true - Gnarl is the doubts whispering in her ear that
even the people she loves think she should be punished, getting
skinned and dying alone. But it's the relief of the end that's always
been what everyone needed.
Rating: Excellent


Season Seven, Episode 4: "Help"
Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
Director: Rick Rosenthal

When I first saw this, I assumed it would be a major story, and I'm
not quite sure why. "Help" does some minor development of the Buffy/
Soul!Spike relationship, but mostly it's a stand-alone about trying to
save a dying girl, and taking up the Protector's mission when people
don't want you around and/or doubt it'll do any good. Knowing where
the year goes, it's almost like it's picking up the parts of the
"season premiere" slack that were left behind by "Lessons." Like
"Lessons" it's one of the year's few real high-school based episodes.
Almost Season One-like in its focus on one of the other kids in the
class and her supernatural streak. I've never had much to say about
it, but Cassie's an engaging personality, Dawn gets an actual role,
and the gang works on a case together like in younger times (some
quality Xander/Willow time too). I didn't see where things were going
- the string of rapid reversals near the end could've come from a good
S1 episode too - and the closing shot is a killer. So I'm pretty
happy with it, even with Chris's medical record gaffe and a little
dragginess (for what it's worth, it dragged less this time, which is
usually a good sign).
Rating: Good


Additional comments on S7D1: David Solomon is a commentary track
chameleon (or possibly a mushroom), taking on the traits of his
immediate companions. He's vapid and scattershot when paired with
Rebecca, detail-oriented and geeking on interesting facts when with
Tim Minear, and a chatty storyteller when doing his track with Joss
here.

There's one aspect of this exchange from STSP I never noticed before.
It's surprising, once you know where to look, how much time the show
is taking to show the way Buffy's friends buy into and feed her
exclusivist mentality.
BUFFY: I have a confession. I thought it might be you. With the
flaying.
WILLOW: I know.
BUFFY: I want to be the kind of person that wouldn't think that.
Xander never thought that.
WILLOW: He did, a little. Heck, *I* did, a little. Xander has the
luxury of not saying it. But you're the Slayer. You have to say
stuff like that. It's okay.

If the writers were trying, as some suggested in the reviews of later
S7 episodes, to do a running gag based around Buffy being a bit of a
**** counselor, it's weakened by the fact that they didn't seem to
have come up with it yet when they first gave her the job.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

In article <e2271ca1-053a-4157-9b0c-7c40adf96355@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> A reminder: I think it's pretty safe to say these threads are not
> going to see anybody that's invisible.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 1: "Lessons"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: David Solomon
>
> And Season Seven begins with... The Adventures Of Buffy And Dawn Going
> To School. I know they wanted SHS to be a big part of the show again,

hey its happy buffy again
thats worth something

> Season Seven, Episode 2: "Beneath You"
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Nick Marck

> ). It takes some time to sit around and discuss Spike's opening
> attempt to help while throwing a veneer of changelessness over his
> issues. But beyond that, there's also several hours available to have
> him hump a cross while obliquely referencing a whole bunch of whatever
> from throughout his life and the history of the universe. The

i find spikes journey as profound as buffys in season six
but compressed into fewer episodes

in both cases
its beyond life and death and the ultimate heat death of the universe
its rather life and life and what is beyond the universe

> Season Seven, Episode 4: "Help"
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
>
> When I first saw this, I assumed it would be a major story, and I'm
> not quite sure why. "Help" does some minor development of the Buffy/
> Soul!Spike relationship, but mostly it's a stand-alone about trying to
> save a dying girl, and taking up the Protector's mission when people
> don't want you around and/or doubt it'll do any good. Knowing where
> the year goes, it's almost like it's picking up the parts of the

we are not all going to make it
some of them are going to die
and theres nothing i can do about it

the reality of this universe is that everyone dies
and that everyone buffy saves doesnt live happily ever after
rather they just die at an older age

this episode is about buffy facing that
she saves the victim but the victim only has a few more minutes anyway

so when that finality hits and leaves a whacking big bruise across your brain
the next question is what do you do about it
thats what theyre struggling with at the end of the episode

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:e2271ca1-053a-4157-9b0c-7c40adf96355@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: I think it's pretty safe to say these threads are not
> going to see anybody that's invisible.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 1: "Lessons"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: David Solomon
>
> And Season Seven begins with... The Adventures Of Buffy And Dawn Going
> To School. I know they wanted SHS to be a big part of the show again,
> but it seems to have gotten largely lost in the shuffle. The result
> is a ghost story that feels fairly standard, apart from the
> potentially intriguing but misconceived Buffy/Spike meeting. I mean,
> I enjoy "Lessons" pretty well for a few of the scares and all the
> Jossian one-liners and of course the cameos in that final sequence
> (which is itself a pretty good "crescendo of ominous"). But outside
> the teaser and last scene it doesn't set the thematic stage for the
> year as much as some season premieres, and I have to side with those
> who count it as on the thin side, simply settling for being a pretty
> good minor episode.
> Rating: Good

From my original comments: "If it weren't for Spike and the Mighty Morphin'
Big Bads my curiosity meter would be flat-lined."

This is an easy episode to watch - kind of like what I imagine the series
could have been like if it had stayed purely episodic. I like it well
enough, but I think I was overly generous with my previous Good rating. I'm
lowering it to a Decent this time around.


> Season Seven, Episode 2: "Beneath You"
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Nick Marck
>
> This one doesn't entirely do it for me, and it's in part because
> "Beneath You" is BTVS at its most into itself. That's very rarely
> something I mind in the heavily insular continuity-heavy TV series I
> tend to favor. But here I'm not so into the show being so into itself
> (now I know how Dave Matthews feels:
> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39670
> ). It takes some time to sit around and discuss Spike's opening
> attempt to help while throwing a veneer of changelessness over his
> issues. But beyond that, there's also several hours available to have
> him hump a cross while obliquely referencing a whole bunch of whatever
> from throughout his life and the history of the universe. The
> straightforward monster story serves as an excuse to have the
> characters sit around and argue and discuss their shared history. No
> matter how energetically it doesn't happen, not a whole lot really
> happens, and one has to wonder whether the show's going anywhere at
> this point. I'm not denying the energy of some of those insular
> moments, like the chaos in the Bronze, but that's one of the only
> times the episode really steps all the way back to achieve a good look
> at the wild Scooby in its natural social habitat. I remember BY for
> Spike; the fact that it's also a bit of an Anya episode is
> overshadowed by a bigger one coming up. I go back and forth on
> whether or not this is a required step on the way to "Selfless,"
> telling Anya that she'll have to take responsibility for (and by
> extension, be) herself before the episode in which she has to learn
> it.
> Rating: Decent

There's a really nice Willow/Giles scene setting up the next episode that
deserves some mention. Willow offers a little bit of foreshadowing when she
says, "Does that mean I have to be a bigger, badder badass than the source
of all badness?" I always get a little kick out of BtVS's oblique
foreshadowing, here a rather direct description of The First, but couched in
a hypothetical not obviously connected to anything in particular. That's a
sidelight though.

The core of the scene is Willow's fear of being rejected by her friends in
Sunnydale, which of course will be dealt with next episode. What I find
especially interesting is what Giles says in recognition of the problem.

Giles: Willow, we could spend another two years here training and
practicing and learning to hone your powers and still there'd be no way of
knowing for sure that the friends you left behind you are still your
friends.
....
Giles: I'd love to offer you some guarantee that you'd be welcomed back to
Sunnydale with open arms, but I can't. You may not be wanted, but you will
be needed.
....
Giles: Trust yourself, and the others might follow.

As it happens, none of that is really going to matter for Willow. But it
will for Giles himself. His words of wisdom to Willow turn out to be a
window into his own situation and attitude when he returns to Sunnydale.
Willow is scared that she won't be accepted. Giles seems to almost expect
it.

That's a subtlety nobody's likely to notice first time through, but in the
context of re-watching I like it pretty well. I wish I liked the payoff as
much.
---
Last time I talked a lot about how well the episode captured the character
connections as they would exist at this moment in time - especially in the
Bronze scene where they confront Anya. (One of my personal favorite scenes
of the season.) Perhaps most notably the way show included the third party
perspective of Nancy.

There's a kind of personal awareness (not necessarily friendship) between
people and a kind of maturity of experience being shown early on this season
that suggested to me much of the growing up that the series is supposed to
be depicting. I mention it because, as the season progresses through a
series of personal conflicts, the season walks a fine line promoting that
conflict without losing that sense of personal growth. For me it'll fall
short a little too often. It would have been nice if sometime people
actually retained the old lessons.
----
The closing scene in the church is the most difficult scene I think.
Batshit crazy Spike makes most of the scene batshit crazy to figure out.
I've seen it a bunch of times now and it still seems a mess. And "spark" as
analogy for soul still feels like an artificial writer's contrivance. Not
to mention the scene running on.

Yet, it still redeems itself an awful lot with the closing of Spike burning
on the cross (more practical foreshadowing than anything in the opener) and
Buffy crying over the realization of what Spike had done for her.

I love this episode and still give it an Excellent rating.


> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> So it's time to re-integrate Willow back into the main cast without
> throwing aside the extreme places things went last season. That means
> slotting off yet another week for a quieter story that takes its time,
> and you know what? S7's good at that. Even the biggest episode of
> the first half of the year (CWDP) is slow and touchy-feely, and the
> show seems more comfortable in that realm than it does with epic good
> and evil at this point in its life. STSP is a bit cerebral until the
> explanations of what's going on, but it's not a dry intellectual
> exercise.

In spite of all the intellectual analysis BtVS prompts, it's first about the
emotions.


> There's a sense of longing that follows the core trio
> through the episode that's a major component of Anya and Spike's
> appearances as well. That longing for each others' company is what
> will be most important for both the characters and the viewer in
> welcoming Willow back as uncritically, relative speaking, as happens,
> and STSP sells me fully on that reunion.

The episode pushes a little at a parallel between Willow and Anya, what with
the power ruling them and all. But I think your observation nails it
better, bringing out what makes their scenes together work so well. They're
not friends - evidenced clearly by being able to see each other - actually
they rather dislike each other. But they still reach for each other's
company as so superior to being alone. The longing you speak of pervades
their scenes.


> How well Gnarl works depends
> a lot on what sort of mood I'm in (you'll remember I loved him the
> first time around),

I think he's one of the best BtVS monsters in quality of portrayal. But
eating Willow's skin gets really gross. So for me it depends on what my
stomach's up to.


> Paralyzed Willow is consistently one of the hour's
> few weak spots, and Posable Dawn almost always gets a laugh out of me
> at some point in the sequences.

Though not a comic episode, I think there's a lot of good humor. ("It's
smellementary.") It's also a really good Dawn episode. Her enthusiasm
makes her so likable.


> Whether or not one likes Gnarl's
> attitude, his method of killing is certainly disgusting, and I think
> that kind of grotesqueness works for me in any mood. There was some
> discussion last time around about whether Willow is being punished by
> an unimaginative and literal-minded sadist of a writing team. I think
> the opposite is true - Gnarl is the doubts whispering in her ear that
> even the people she loves think she should be punished, getting
> skinned and dying alone.

I pretty much agree with you. Really I think the writers are letting her
off pretty easily. Since TKIM doesn't end up actually going there, I think
this is pretty much it for Dark Willow punishment.


> But it's the relief of the end that's always
> been what everyone needed.

Emotion first. But... they sure do pause to insert some thematic stuff too.

Buffy: I wanna be the kind of person that wouldn't think that. Xander never
thought it.
Willow: He did, a little. Heck, I did a little. Xander has the luxury of
not saying it, but you're the slayer. You have to say stuff like that.

Setting the Slayer apart from others isn't a new thought by any means, but
it's a particular focus this season. (Dawn spoke of Buffy deciding things
on her own last episode.) I like this little reference because it goes to
the part of Buffy that doesn't really want to be set apart, but is
constantly told by the people around her that she's different. This is
small stuff compared to the really foreshadowy element of the scene's
emotional highlight.

Buffy: I got so much strength, I'm giving it away.

I surely love it for the emotional connection with Willow right now, but I
can't help but note the parallel to Buffy's grand solution to the Slayer
trap. Willow's magic makes it possible then too. And just to complete the
parallel, one can also see Willow's season ending spell as a healing one for
herself.


> Rating: Excellent

I think I enjoyed the episode more than ever this time, but it still stays
at a Good rating.


> Season Seven, Episode 4: "Help"
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
>
> When I first saw this, I assumed it would be a major story, and I'm
> not quite sure why.

I think it was intended to be a major theme setter with the closing lines:

Dawn: I guess sometimes you can't help.
Buffy: So what then? What do you do when you know that? When you know that
maybe you can't help?

How that ties into Buffy's ultimate series ending choice is covered pretty
thoroughly in Scythe's thread for your original review. I like the thoughts
there a lot, but I can't help but observe that Cassie's situation is only a
so-so analogy for what's to come. Consequently I don't think the lines are
especially effective at portending what they ought to. The lines at that
moment certainly sound portentous. It's just that in context they're too
drenched with fate to get across the feel of Buffy's ultimate conundrum.
She'll solve the Slayer trap. But she could never solve Cassie.

In any case, that's a theme thing mostly compressed into the final moments.
As a story I think it's very stand alone. I like how you relate it to S1
stories in your thoughts below. I tend to relate it a little to Earshot in
the sense of it trying to get close to the inner turmoil in teen minds.
It's not as extreme as Earshot, but it strikes me as having a touch of that
feel of going for something a little special.


> "Help" does some minor development of the Buffy/
> Soul!Spike relationship, but mostly it's a stand-alone about trying to
> save a dying girl, and taking up the Protector's mission when people
> don't want you around and/or doubt it'll do any good. Knowing where
> the year goes, it's almost like it's picking up the parts of the
> "season premiere" slack that were left behind by "Lessons." Like
> "Lessons" it's one of the year's few real high-school based episodes.
> Almost Season One-like in its focus on one of the other kids in the
> class and her supernatural streak. I've never had much to say about
> it, but Cassie's an engaging personality, Dawn gets an actual role,
> and the gang works on a case together like in younger times (some
> quality Xander/Willow time too). I didn't see where things were going
> - the string of rapid reversals near the end could've come from a good
> S1 episode too - and the closing shot is a killer. So I'm pretty
> happy with it, even with Chris's medical record gaffe and a little
> dragginess (for what it's worth, it dragged less this time, which is
> usually a good sign).
> Rating: Good

I want to quote something I once wrote about Welcome To The Hellmouth.
(Never posted to this group.)

Buffy: Well, my philosophy, do you wanna hear my philosophy?
Willow: Yeah, I do!
Buffy: Life is short.
Willow: Life is short!
Buffy: Not original, I'll grant you, but it's true. You know? Why waste
time being all shy and worrying about some guy, and if he's gonna laugh at
you. Seize the moment, 'cause tomorrow you might be dead.
Willow: Oh, that's nice!

Except that it’s not really so nice, ‘cause the other part of the Slayer
trap is that they all die young.

In this scene we see Buffy inadvertently show how much influence her Slayer
status already has upon her life outlook – even though, at the time, she was
stubbornly rejecting her calling. Still, she knew that for her, she really
could be dead tomorrow.

The demands of being Slayer are relentless and deadly. It changes her
worldview whether she wants that or not. And it will leave her dead. Buffy
proves to be a special Slayer on many levels – ultimately defeating the
whole construct. But even she can’t avoid that part of the trap. She will
die twice.

Death is itself a pretty constant theme in BtVS. In S5 it will practically
become a fetish. But even short of that, people will die left and right in
this series. Too often it will be the dearly loved that will be lost.

Death is also a pretty constant theme for many teenagers. I’ve always
suspected that the ongoing presence of death is a big part of the show’s
attraction to the young. Teenagers are often described as believing they
are invulnerable. They often act that way. But they are also often
obsessed with death, fascinated by its absolute nature, scared of its
arbitrary appearance, sometimes even suicidal at the prospect of living.
The notion that you might be dead tomorrow resonates among teenagers. And
live for today is a philosophy of youth.
---
I think the thing I like best about Help is how it captures the mood of teen
obsession with death. I believe that's always been part of the appeal of
the series, but I don't recall an episode that so directly goes to it. I'm
glad the series got to that eventually.
---
Though I like Cassie and am intrigued by some of the portents I have trouble
getting this episode above a Decent. I especially dislike the boring evil
boy and crappy demon raising, both of which feel like the discount version
of Reptile Boy - an episode that doesn't exactly cry out for an homage to
it.


> There's one aspect of this exchange from STSP I never noticed before.
> It's surprising, once you know where to look, how much time the show
> is taking to show the way Buffy's friends buy into and feed her
> exclusivist mentality.
> BUFFY: I have a confession. I thought it might be you. With the
> flaying.
> WILLOW: I know.
> BUFFY: I want to be the kind of person that wouldn't think that.
> Xander never thought that.
> WILLOW: He did, a little. Heck, *I* did, a little. Xander has the
> luxury of not saying it. But you're the Slayer. You have to say
> stuff like that. It's okay.

Wow. That's exactly the point I made up above. We're not really starting
to think alike are we?


> Thoughts?

I remember thinking when originally aired how fresh this season felt early
on. Later it'll become a bit of a slog, but for now M.E. seems to be living
up to its determination to brighten the series up after two years of
comparative harshness.

OBS

On Mar 2, 5:17 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:e2271ca1-053a-4157-9b0c-7c40adf96355@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

> Yet, it still redeems itself an awful lot with the closing of Spike burning
> on the cross (more practical foreshadowing than anything in the opener) and
> Buffy crying over the realization of what Spike had done for her.

That part is most notable to me for having inspired one of my favorite
moments of silly discussion. (From the "Never Leave Me" thread -
order of posting is Scythe Matters, Malsperanza, Scythe, me, WGF):

>>>>It remains to be seen where Spike's going, other than to a King Diamond concert.
>> > Aww, s7 Spike is surely a Tori Amos fan?
>> Why *does* he crucify himself?
>Not every day, though.
He does seem to have an affinity for chains, though.

> > Paralyzed Willow is consistently one of the hour's
> > few weak spots, and Posable Dawn almost always gets a laugh out of me
> > at some point in the sequences.
>
> Though not a comic episode, I think there's a lot of good humor. ("It's
> smellementary.") It's also a really good Dawn episode. Her enthusiasm
> makes her so likable.

Agreed on both counts. I remember observing that in addition to being
known for her more manic comedy episodes, Jane impresses me the most
when, towards the beginning of a season, she writes a quieter personal
episode - often a dark one - that's packed with great lines that don't
spoil the episode's mood. See also "After Life." "The Replacement"
is kinda on the edge of that category too, although no one will accuse
it of being a dark one.

> > Whether or not one likes Gnarl's
> > attitude, his method of killing is certainly disgusting, and I think
> > that kind of grotesqueness works for me in any mood. There was some
> > discussion last time around about whether Willow is being punished by
> > an unimaginative and literal-minded sadist of a writing team. I think
> > the opposite is true - Gnarl is the doubts whispering in her ear that
> > even the people she loves think she should be punished, getting
> > skinned and dying alone.
>
> I pretty much agree with you. Really I think the writers are letting her
> off pretty easily. Since TKIM doesn't end up actually going there, I think
> this is pretty much it for Dark Willow punishment.

Yep. Similar to the thousands of other times someone gets forgiven,
it seems like the point is that punishing Willow further wouldn't
really accomplish anything. She has to live with what she's capable
of and deal with it on a day-to-day basis, which is her semblance of
an arc this season. (As you suggest, TKIM confuses things a little
bit by pretending it's going to go back to the well.)

WILLOW: I deserve a lot worse. I killed people, Giles.
GILES: I've not forgotten.
WILLOW: When you brought me here, I thought it was to kill me or to
lock me in some mystical dungeon for all eternity or--with the
torture. Instead, you go all Dumbledore on me. I'm learning about
magic. All about energy and Gaia and root systems.
GILES: Do you want to be punished?
WILLOW: I wanna be Willow.
GILES: You are.
- "Lessons"

> This is
> small stuff compared to the really foreshadowy element of the scene's
> emotional highlight.
>
> Buffy: I got so much strength, I'm giving it away.
>
> I surely love it for the emotional connection with Willow right now, but I
> can't help but note the parallel to Buffy's grand solution to the Slayer
> trap. Willow's magic makes it possible then too. And just to complete the
> parallel, one can also see Willow's season ending spell as a healing one for
> herself.

Didn't catch that at all, but definitely a parallel. They clearly
knew how things were going to end at this point, but the foreshadowing
is subtle enough that I doubt anyone fully processed it in advance.

> Death is itself a pretty constant theme in BtVS. In S5 it will practically
> become a fetish. But even short of that, people will die left and right in
> this series. Too often it will be the dearly loved that will be lost.
>
> Death is also a pretty constant theme for many teenagers. I've always
> suspected that the ongoing presence of death is a big part of the show's
> attraction to the young. Teenagers are often described as believing they
> are invulnerable. They often act that way. But they are also often
> obsessed with death, fascinated by its absolute nature, scared of its
> arbitrary appearance, sometimes even suicidal at the prospect of living.
> The notion that you might be dead tomorrow resonates among teenagers. And
> live for today is a philosophy of youth.
> ---
> I think the thing I like best about Help is how it captures the mood of teen
> obsession with death. I believe that's always been part of the appeal of
> the series, but I don't recall an episode that so directly goes to it. I'm
> glad the series got to that eventually.

Again not much to add, but yeah, kids that age are indeed fascinated
by death. Interesting that one of the most direct episodes about it
comes as Buffy's long since moved on from some aspects of the teenage
mindset (emphasized elsewhere in the season).

> I remember thinking when originally aired how fresh this season felt early
> on. Later it'll become a bit of a slog, but for now M.E. seems to be living
> up to its determination to brighten the series up after two years of
> comparative harshness.

I guess you're right to a degree, and people definitely talk about
Season Seven being consciously less dark than the previous year. But
even though the early part of the season is indeed low-key before
gradually moving into the realm of the epic (and arguably the
monotonous; very S5 in that respect), I don't really think of BY or
STSP or "Selfless" as bright, cheery episodes.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bbc0e33-cb07-4363-9f1e-b829abcd0830@q33g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 2, 5:17 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:e2271ca1-053a-4157-9b0c-7c40adf96355@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...


>> > Whether or not one likes Gnarl's
>> > attitude, his method of killing is certainly disgusting, and I think
>> > that kind of grotesqueness works for me in any mood. There was some
>> > discussion last time around about whether Willow is being punished by
>> > an unimaginative and literal-minded sadist of a writing team. I think
>> > the opposite is true - Gnarl is the doubts whispering in her ear that
>> > even the people she loves think she should be punished, getting
>> > skinned and dying alone.
>>
>> I pretty much agree with you. Really I think the writers are letting her
>> off pretty easily. Since TKIM doesn't end up actually going there, I
>> think
>> this is pretty much it for Dark Willow punishment.
>
> Yep. Similar to the thousands of other times someone gets forgiven,
> it seems like the point is that punishing Willow further wouldn't
> really accomplish anything. She has to live with what she's capable
> of and deal with it on a day-to-day basis, which is her semblance of
> an arc this season. (As you suggest, TKIM confuses things a little
> bit by pretending it's going to go back to the well.)
>
> WILLOW: I deserve a lot worse. I killed people, Giles.
> GILES: I've not forgotten.
> WILLOW: When you brought me here, I thought it was to kill me or to
> lock me in some mystical dungeon for all eternity or--with the
> torture. Instead, you go all Dumbledore on me. I'm learning about
> magic. All about energy and Gaia and root systems.
> GILES: Do you want to be punished?
> WILLOW: I wanna be Willow.
> GILES: You are.
> - "Lessons"

I'm quite fine with that too. Buffy and company are often enforcers, but
they're not meting out justice. That's not their function or really what
the show is about. When the series does go there it seems more often to be
about natural consequences than justice and more interested in redemption
than punishment. Which is not to say that it doesn't recognize poetic
justice. (Gnarl does go after the skin.) It's just that the idea seems to
be to somehow move past that. Vengeance, after all, is generally seen as a
problem - the wrong path. And one of Buffy's greatest attributes is seeing
the possibilities in sinners.


>> This is
>> small stuff compared to the really foreshadowy element of the scene's
>> emotional highlight.
>>
>> Buffy: I got so much strength, I'm giving it away.
>>
>> I surely love it for the emotional connection with Willow right now, but
>> I
>> can't help but note the parallel to Buffy's grand solution to the Slayer
>> trap. Willow's magic makes it possible then too. And just to complete
>> the
>> parallel, one can also see Willow's season ending spell as a healing one
>> for
>> herself.
>
> Didn't catch that at all, but definitely a parallel. They clearly
> knew how things were going to end at this point, but the foreshadowing
> is subtle enough that I doubt anyone fully processed it in advance.

That's why I re-watch it.


>> I remember thinking when originally aired how fresh this season felt
>> early
>> on. Later it'll become a bit of a slog, but for now M.E. seems to be
>> living
>> up to its determination to brighten the series up after two years of
>> comparative harshness.
>
> I guess you're right to a degree, and people definitely talk about
> Season Seven being consciously less dark than the previous year. But
> even though the early part of the season is indeed low-key before
> gradually moving into the realm of the epic (and arguably the
> monotonous; very S5 in that respect), I don't really think of BY or
> STSP or "Selfless" as bright, cheery episodes.

Oh, I didn't mean cheery. (I struggled to find an adequate adjective.
Fresh was all I could come up with.) BtVS isn't cheery very often - even in
good times. Maybe I should have said "refreshing". I don't think S7 starts
any more upbeat than most seasons. No more than S5 actually. But one
problem with S6 is that it didn't offer any respite from the hardness of S5.
It's been a really long time since folks just had a few simple adventures.
So comparatively it's fun.

OBS

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:e2271ca1-053a-4157-9b0c-7c40adf96355@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: I think it's pretty safe to say these threads are not
> going to see anybody that's invisible.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 1: "Lessons"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Rating: Good

This is one on which we broadly agree (for a change), although I would only
go as far as Decent. There are some good one liners, and some nice touches
with Dawn starting at new Sunnydale High, but the "manifest spirits" and mad
Spike are clunky, and the Willow scenes are understandably disjointed from
the rest. It is my 91st favourite BtVS episode, 10th best in season 7 (last
time was 89th and 9th).


> Season Seven, Episode 2: "Beneath You"
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Nick Marck
>
> Rating: Decent

This is a rare instance of an episode this late in the series that I like
better than you. The monsters are fun, the main characters get a good
workout, and even though mad Spike is generally tiresome, I love the ending.
That's enough for a Good, for me and in fact it has improved on this
watching to 57th best BtVS episode, 5th best
in season 7 (last time was 76th and 8th).

> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Rating: Excellent

Only Good for me. But it is a clever concept, well executed, and then
there's posable Dawn. Mixed feelings about Gnarl. He's a creepy monster
(more so before we see him) but I do think the literalism of the punishment
is a bit clunky. And having a demon around that eats the skins of victims
and leaves the body is pretty hard to not notice for 7 years of BtVS.
Perhaps my biggest disappointment is the fact that they have discontinued
the Potential of the week getting slain at the start by the Bringers - if
only they had continued that for a few more weeks they might have thinned
the ranks before the herd descended on the Summers house, maybe even got
Kennedy. Still, it's my 54th favourite BtVS episode, 4th best in season 7
(last time was 52nd and 3rd).

> Season Seven, Episode 4: "Help"
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: Rick Rosenthal

> Rating: Good

Only Decent for met. Part of the reason is no doubt that I find Cassie just
as annoying as any real-life doom-laden teenager, and the heavy hand of Fate
is just too easily and cheaply realised when you have heavy-handed writers
It's my 95th favourite BtVS episode, 11th best in season 7 (last time was
91st and 10th).


--
Apteryx

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 1: "Lessons"
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: David Solomon

I was actually a bit disappointed by Lessons this time around. I'm now
tempted to call it the weakest of Joss's scripts (especially if you give
him a pass for the early tentative efforts of WTTH/TH). Both the plot and
the character moments are a little on the simple side. But of course to
call this Joss's weakest script is to praise it with faint damnation. As
AOQ says later, it still works out to be a pretty good minor episode.
There are certainly nice moments. But only the great final scene elevates
the episode much beyond filler status.

It is nice to see Buffy making a sincere effort to live up to her speech
to Dawn at the end of S6. Her overprotective urges nearly get the better
of her at first, but we can blame that in part on first-day jitters, and
anyway one successfully resolved crisis is enough to calm her down.
Buffy, Dawn and Xander seem to have formed a truncated but fairly
successful familyesque unit, and Willow is depressed but well on the road
to recovery with help from Giles. On the other hand Anya is unhappy and
Halfrek's help is *not* making it better; while Spike, though he has taken
a big step that might lead to a new man, is currently insane and the
First's plaything. It seems like the degree to which a character
recovered from S6 depends upon the company they keep as much as anything
else.

The Buffy-Spike part still fails to satisfy me, just like it has on pretty
much every viewing. Probably, to lay the groundwork for future
developments, Joss wanted to show us that there is still more to Buffy's
feelings for Spike than simple hatred. You know, despite the rape thing.
But the lack of *any* signs of trauma amidst the confusion and curiosity
just feels wrong to me. It's disappointing, because I'm sure Joss could
have gotten those additional layers into the scene if he had tried.
Beneath You will handle Buffy's reactions much better.

Why does Buffy ask Spike "What did you do?" when she sees his wounds?
Sure, their position shows they could have been self-inflicted, but it's
not clear that they *had* to be self-inflicted, especially not at first
glance. I wonder if it's significant that crazy Spike felt his soul was
located in his heart, rather than, say, the brain.

> (which is itself a pretty good "crescendo of ominous"). But outside
> the teaser and last scene it doesn't set the thematic stage for the
> year as much as some season premieres,

The "It's about power" bookends seem to foreshadow the finale more than
the season as a whole. Power is a recurring theme throughout the season,
but usually combined with or buried in other stories like Buffy's struggle
to be a leader, yet another look at the Slayer trap, various characters'
crises of identity, etc. The final shot when First-as-Buffy repeats
Buffy's words is neat, but I'm not sure that the First really cares about
power, as such -- doesn't it simply want to destroy the world? But maybe
it's thinking like Buffy when it takes on her form.

> Rating: Good

I said Good last time, and I still like Lessons too much to demote it; but
it's fairly low in the Good range.

> Season Seven, Episode 2: "Beneath You"
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Nick Marck

I was recently reminded that there's at least one other famous man who
goes shirtless almost as often as Spike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk3lS2q9QGk

> It takes some time to sit around and discuss Spike's opening
> attempt to help while throwing a veneer of changelessness over his
> issues. But beyond that, there's also several hours available to have
> him hump a cross while obliquely referencing a whole bunch of whatever
> from throughout his life and the history of the universe.

This time around, when Buffy followed Spike into the church, I was mildly
appalled to see that we were still only at the 35 minute mark. I really
do not think the long monologue, demented or not, is the best format for
Spike to shine in. (Unless you count the "to the Angel-mobile, away!"
speech from In the Dark. But that was much shorter.) On first viewing I
was mostly just confused by this scene. Nowadays the most interesting
thing about it is picking out the hints to things the first-time viewer
wouldn't understand -- such as the "everybody's in here talking," which
might not just be Spike's memories, but the First's apparitions as well.
Similarly, when Spike starts to lose it in the alley scene, he cries "What
the hell are you screaming about?" The First was probably appearing to
him at that very moment. I don't recall any definite statements about
this point, but I assume that the First has been haunting Spike,
Amends-style, since shortly after he got his soul back. I sometimes
wonder if he would have handled being ensouled much better if it wasn't
for the First's interference.

So where did the phrase "From beneath you, it devours" come from, anyway?
Buffy got it in a Slayer dream, but Spike, Andrew and Jonathan all heard
the same thing (though sometimes in Spanish). Is it the First's
recruiting slogan? Just something that anyone with intuition can feel?

> The
> straightforward monster story serves as an excuse to have the
> characters sit around and argue and discuss their shared history. No
> matter how energetically it doesn't happen, not a whole lot really
> happens, and one has to wonder whether the show's going anywhere at
> this point.

Forgiveable, IMO, since without exception all those scenes really worked
for me. And if I can whack the horse one more time, Buffy's first few
scenes with Spike were a real improvement on those from Lessons.

> overshadowed by a bigger one coming up. I go back and forth on
> whether or not this is a required step on the way to "Selfless,"
> telling Anya that she'll have to take responsibility for (and by
> extension, be) herself before the episode in which she has to learn
> it.

The shooting script I've seen includes a bit where Xander warns Anya that
if she keeps it up, Buffy will have to kill her:

XANDER
Think about the career choice you're
making here, Anya. You're getting
people killed.

This clearly affects Anya, but she steels herself:

ANYA
Not my problem.

XANDER
Well it's gonna be. Forget right and
wrong - what you're doing is demonic.

ANYA
Uh, yeah. We're not called Vengeance
People ...

XANDER
And Buffy's the Slayer. You're a
Demon. You kill people - how long
you think it's gonna be before
she has to do her job?

ANYA
Buffy wouldn't slay ... me.

XANDER
Not if you stop now.

I'm glad that they took this exchange out. It wouldn't have worked with
the final version of Selfless, where Xander is shocked when Buffy decides
to kill Anya.

> Rating: Decent

The showpiece final scene doesn't entirely work for me, but I'm willing to
call it an interesting failure with a nice final image. And the rest of
the episode has a lot to like. Lots of fun intra-Scooby interactions,
especially once Anya's back in the picture. A more satisfying beginning
to the Buffy-Spike story for the season, after something of a misfire in
Lessons. A nice update on Willow. Dawn's threat. And the Glance.
Overall, I'm pretty fond of this episode and give it a highish Good.

> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner

A rare wardrobe note from me: I *hate* Buffy's outfit in the teaser and
the rest of that night. And this is from the guy who liked the
transparent thing over white shirt in Primeval.

> So it's time to re-integrate Willow back into the main cast without
> throwing aside the extreme places things went last season.

Although the episode doesn't dwell on this point, it's pretty significant
that Buffy has only been communicating with Giles, never with Willow
herself. Really, that says as much about the fears in their relationship
as main plot of STSP does. And Xander and Dawn, who are both just as
close to Willow, haven't talked to her or written to her either;
Xander's welcome-back sign has a distinct whiff of making up for lost time
about it. And Giles has apparently not encouraged Willow to reach out to
them. Clearly everyone expects the reunion to be difficult, but -- big
surprise -- no one has actually talked about it, preferring to just
silently worry instead.

> and STSP sells me fully on that reunion. How well Gnarl works depends
> a lot on what sort of mood I'm in (you'll remember I loved him the
> first time around), Paralyzed Willow is consistently one of the hour's
> few weak spots,

Paralysis does take a lot of the fun out of Willow. Though if I have
to watch anyone lie motionless and mumble without moving her jaw, it might
as well be her. Meanwhile, I found Gnarl eating bits of Willow-skin to be
especially revolting this time. So I guess he worked for me.

> that kind of grotesqueness works for me in any mood. There was some
> discussion last time around about whether Willow is being punished by
> an unimaginative and literal-minded sadist of a writing team. I think
> the opposite is true - Gnarl is the doubts whispering in her ear that
> even the people she loves think she should be punished, getting
> skinned and dying alone.

Part of the beloved Buffyverse tradition of villains that prey on the
heroes' insecurities (and related to the tradition of villains who see the
heroes' peronal problems better than they do). They First will do
something similar throughout much of this season, I believe.

> Rating: Excellent

Certainly a Good at the least, but I'm not sure I'd go to Excellent.

> Season Seven, Episode 4: "Help"
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: Rick Rosenthal

Morbid, angsty teens can be really annoying, but Cassie manages to avoid
that problem because she keeps the angsting off-screen. Sure, we hear a
bit of her gloomy poetry recited, and her classmates see her as some
weirdo suicidal poet girl. But most of the time when we actually see her
interacting with other characters she's pretty calm, laid back, friendly,
and has a sense of humor. And when she pours her heart out outside her
dad's house, it's not stereotypical overwrought, hormonal teen angst but
actually pretty mature for a teenage girl about to die. Come to think of
it, that speech is not morbid at all, it's about loving life. (But not in
an annoyingly uplifting way.) So yeah, I like her.

After watching Help again I started to get all proud of myself for
spotting the similarity between Buffy at the end and Angel's "then all
that matters is what we do" philosophy on the other show. Then I reread
the 2006 thread and thought that the idea grew from memories of Scythe's
post and its followups. Oh, well. It's still interesting to look at it
from the AtS point of view. Instead of focusing on Buffy's fate as the
one girl who can save the world, the conclusion of Help focuses on Buffy's
conscious choice to keep trying even in the face of knowing she can't win.
I mean, not just "can't win" in the sense that a particular foe looks
invincible, but in the larger sense that many problems are insoluble and
there can never be a final victory. It's not about victory, it's about
how you choose to live your life. It would fit right in on AtS, but it's
unusual on BtVS. I can only think of a few episodes that take a similar
approach. There's a bit from Gingerbread, mentioned in the 2006 thread:
Angel tells Buffy that they'll never win, but "We do it because there's
things worth fighting for." And then there's The Wish, where Buffy fights
on simply because it's her lot in life, even though she's devoid of hope.
"World is what it is. We fight. We die." That could be seen as kind of a
dark reflection of Angel's approach: still fighting without hope of an
ultimate victory, but rooted in deadened feelings and submission to fate
rather than personal choice. Are there other BtVS episodes with a
similarly AtS-like approach?

> don't want you around and/or doubt it'll do any good. Knowing where
> the year goes, it's almost like it's picking up the parts of the
> "season premiere" slack that were left behind by "Lessons." Like
> "Lessons" it's one of the year's few real high-school based episodes.

With all the Potentials hanging around later in the season, a lot of
school-based episodes might have resulted in teenager overload.

> Almost Season One-like in its focus on one of the other kids in the
> class and her supernatural streak. I've never had much to say about
> it, but Cassie's an engaging personality, Dawn gets an actual role,
> and the gang works on a case together like in younger times (some
> quality Xander/Willow time too).

All good, with the X/W scene in the graveyard, and Willow's solo bit at
Tara's grave, being my favorite.

> and the closing shot is a killer. So I'm pretty
> happy with it, even with Chris's medical record gaffe

Which is still annoying. And I see no reason to doubt my cynical theory
about why it made it into the script.

On the other hand, one small detail that I really liked was Dawn's
reaction to Peter's nasty little distracting trick. She just shrugs it
off, annoyed but not anything close to being crushed. Our little girl is
growing up!

> and a little
> dragginess (for what it's worth, it dragged less this time, which is
> usually a good sign).

The funeral home teaser and the mourning scene at Buffy's house both
still drag for me, though it's not a major problem. The teaser does have
that good quote, "vampire by vampire, that's the only way I know."

> Rating: Good

Last time I said I could only give Help a Good, though I liked it as much
as an Excellent. But now, for variety's sake, I'll change it to a
borderline Good/Excellent.

> There's one aspect of this exchange from STSP I never noticed before.
> It's surprising, once you know where to look, how much time the show
> is taking to show the way Buffy's friends buy into and feed her
> exclusivist mentality.

The effects go beyond feeding that mentality. They don't just accept her
as being different and having lone-wolfy tendencies, they treat her as
their leader. And they aren't necessarily wrong. Who else can lead them?
And hasn't she led them to victory most of the time so far? But it will
lead to trouble later, as the burden of leadership crushes her and she
starts making mistakes. Buffy's friends build her up too high, then both
sides are hurt when she can't measure up to their ideal.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

> Why does Buffy ask Spike "What did you do?" when she sees his wounds?
> Sure, their position shows they could have been self-inflicted, but it's
> not clear that they *had* to be self-inflicted, especially not at first
> glance. I wonder if it's significant that crazy Spike felt his soul was
> located in his heart, rather than, say, the brain.

maybe it has to do with spikes blood is life speech

> Buffy's words is neat, but I'm not sure that the First really cares about
> power, as such -- doesn't it simply want to destroy the world? But maybe
> it's thinking like Buffy when it takes on her form.

if fe is right and it will be able to enter the minds of everyone
then after the initial massacre it could set up a breeding program
for sustainable daily massacres

> speech from In the Dark. But that was much shorter.) On first viewing I
> was mostly just confused by this scene. Nowadays the most interesting
> thing about it is picking out the hints to things the first-time viewer
> wouldn't understand -- such as the "everybody's in here talking," which
> might not just be Spike's memories, but the First's apparitions as well.

what hes talking about is guilt and conscience
and mempries of past murders

it doesnt matter whether it some external agent bringing up the memories
or if hes doing it all himself
what matters is whether he himself can cope with it

> there can never be a final victory. It's not about victory, it's about
> how you choose to live your life. It would fit right in on AtS, but it's
> unusual on BtVS. I can only think of a few episodes that take a similar
> approach. There's a bit from Gingerbread, mentioned in the 2006 thread:

buffy was more about becoming and angel about being

arf meow arf - i dont like squishy
i think i hit a wookie on the expressway
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> So where did the phrase "From beneath you, it devours" come from, anyway?
> Buffy got it in a Slayer dream, but Spike, Andrew and Jonathan all heard
> the same thing (though sometimes in Spanish). Is it the First's
> recruiting slogan? Just something that anyone with intuition can feel?

All the cool TV stars nowadays have to have a catchphrase.

> > overshadowed by a bigger one coming up. I go back and forth on
> > whether or not this is a required step on the way to "Selfless,"
> > telling Anya that she'll have to take responsibility for (and by
> > extension, be) herself before the episode in which she has to learn
> > it.
>
> The shooting script I've seen includes a bit where Xander warns Anya that
> if she keeps it up, Buffy will have to kill her:
>
> XANDER
> Think about the career choice you're
> making here, Anya. You're getting
> people killed.
>
> This clearly affects Anya, but she steels herself:
>
> ANYA
> Not my problem.
>
> XANDER
> Well it's gonna be. Forget right and
> wrong - what you're doing is demonic.
>
> ANYA
> Uh, yeah. We're not called Vengeance
> People ...
>
> XANDER
> And Buffy's the Slayer. You're a
> Demon. You kill people - how long
> you think it's gonna be before
> she has to do her job?
>
> ANYA
> Buffy wouldn't slay ... me.
>
> XANDER
> Not if you stop now.
>
> I'm glad that they took this exchange out. It wouldn't have worked with
> the final version of Selfless, where Xander is shocked when Buffy decides
> to kill Anya.

I second the gladness. There's a time to foreshadow bluntly and a
time to, um, not do so.o

> Paralysis does take a lot of the fun out of Willow. Though if I have
> to watch anyone lie motionless and mumble without moving her jaw, it might
> as well be her.

Dawn?

> Part of the beloved Buffyverse tradition of villains that prey on the
> heroes' insecurities (and related to the tradition of villains who see the
> heroes' peronal problems better than they do). They First will do
> something similar throughout much of this season, I believe.

I have a little bit to say and ponder about that aspect of the First,
as you can see in the next BTVS thread.

> Morbid, angsty teens can be really annoying, but Cassie manages to avoid
> that problem because she keeps the angsting off-screen. Sure, we hear a
> bit of her gloomy poetry recited, and her classmates see her as some
> weirdo suicidal poet girl. But most of the time when we actually see her
> interacting with other characters she's pretty calm, laid back, friendly,
> and has a sense of humor. And when she pours her heart out outside her
> dad's house, it's not stereotypical overwrought, hormonal teen angst but
> actually pretty mature for a teenage girl about to die. Come to think of
> it, that speech is not morbid at all, it's about loving life. (But not in
> an annoyingly uplifting way.) So yeah, I like her.

She's not a "typical" angsty teen, probably specifically for the
reason that she's a one-off guest character whom the writers want us
to like. It seems like she's had time to assimilate the idea of dying
- do we ever find out how long she's known?

> After watching Help again I started to get all proud of myself for
> spotting the similarity between Buffy at the end and Angel's "then all
> that matters is what we do" philosophy on the other show. Then I reread
> the 2006 thread and thought that the idea grew from memories of Scythe's
> post and its followups. Oh, well. It's still interesting to look at it
> from the AtS point of view. Instead of focusing on Buffy's fate as the
> one girl who can save the world, the conclusion of Help focuses on Buffy's
> conscious choice to keep trying even in the face of knowing she can't win.
> I mean, not just "can't win" in the sense that a particular foe looks
> invincible, but in the larger sense that many problems are insoluble and
> there can never be a final victory. It's not about victory, it's about
> how you choose to live your life. It would fit right in on AtS, but it's
> unusual on BtVS. I can only think of a few episodes that take a similar
> approach. There's a bit from Gingerbread, mentioned in the 2006 thread:
> Angel tells Buffy that they'll never win, but "We do it because there's
> things worth fighting for." And then there's The Wish, where Buffy fights
> on simply because it's her lot in life, even though she's devoid of hope.
> "World is what it is. We fight. We die." That could be seen as kind of a
> dark reflection of Angel's approach: still fighting without hope of an
> ultimate victory, but rooted in deadened feelings and submission to fate
> rather than personal choice. Are there other BtVS episodes with a
> similarly AtS-like approach?

In this particular case, it's a bit of a mix, since on one level, this
particular story has no final victory. On another, though, I do think
a lot of the purpose of asking quesitons like this in S7 is to lay the
background for Buffy to change the rules at the end. Maybe people
like Buffy use the ATS approach to last long enough until a BTVS
solution can happen? It's true that the two shows have different
philosophies in that regard (and allegory-fy different periods of
life), but I've never been able to go too deeply into how compatible
they are or aren't.

> > Like
> > "Lessons" it's one of the year's few real high-school based episodes.
>
> With all the Potentials hanging around later in the season, a lot of
> school-based episodes might have resulted in teenager overload.

You know, there's another way the series could have made sure to avoid
teenager overload...

-AOQ

<chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:13uaamit33l9k1a@corp.supernews.com...
>
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 1: "Lessons"

> The Buffy-Spike part still fails to satisfy me, just like it has on pretty
> much every viewing. Probably, to lay the groundwork for future
> developments, Joss wanted to show us that there is still more to Buffy's
> feelings for Spike than simple hatred. You know, despite the rape thing.
> But the lack of *any* signs of trauma amidst the confusion and curiosity
> just feels wrong to me. It's disappointing, because I'm sure Joss could
> have gotten those additional layers into the scene if he had tried.
> Beneath You will handle Buffy's reactions much better.

I imagine that this wasn't the right setting for getting into their
history - that was deferred until next episode. This encounter served to
establish a few small mechanical things in support of their next. An excuse
for Spike to show up at her house and for her not to be surprised, which
allows everybody else to get huffy about her concealing her connection with
Spike again. I think mostly it was aimed at introducing Spike's state of
madness. Of course Spike is pretty much always a bit crazy, so I don't
think it instantly proved as interesting as Joss imagined it to.

I don't think Buffy's reaction was really out of character. There wasn't
time for anything but surprise and wondering what the hell is wrong with him
before the phone rang and the matters of the moment demanded attention. I'd
agree that her somewhat sympathetic response suggests he still matters to
her on some level besides loathing. But really, that can also be seen as a
reflexive response to how messed up he is. It's awfully brief, and I think
puzzlement is exhibited more than sympathy.

Be that is it may, I still agree with you that it's unsatisfying to the
audience. In character or not, there's still all the baggage left from last
season that isn't being dealt with. That's what people want to know about.
Not drive-by Buffy and obscure babbling from Spike that makes no sense.
(Not to mention Spike's ghastly hair.)


> Why does Buffy ask Spike "What did you do?" when she sees his wounds?
> Sure, their position shows they could have been self-inflicted, but it's
> not clear that they *had* to be self-inflicted, especially not at first
> glance.

Slayer instinct. (Hey, I keep telling people it's real.)


> I wonder if it's significant that crazy Spike felt his soul was
> located in his heart, rather than, say, the brain.

It doesn't exactly make sense - his heart doesn't beat. But I think it
sells the notion of Spike's despair OK. I think people usually feel
emotions physically in their body more so than in their head.

(On the other hand I could sort of imagine Spike trying to get at his brain
by putting a power drill to his head. Gross I know, but there's some comic
opportunity. Jerking around when the drill bit seizes... Ok, I'll stop.)


>> (which is itself a pretty good "crescendo of ominous"). But outside
>> the teaser and last scene it doesn't set the thematic stage for the
>> year as much as some season premieres,
>
> The "It's about power" bookends seem to foreshadow the finale more than
> the season as a whole. Power is a recurring theme throughout the season,
> but usually combined with or buried in other stories like Buffy's struggle
> to be a leader, yet another look at the Slayer trap, various characters'
> crises of identity, etc.

It's probably the most overt statement of theme that any BtVS season opener
has provided. Yet it proves to be surprisingly obscure - not really
clarified until Chosen. I think it's because it's slightly misleading. The
actual theme might be better stated as empowerment. Viewed that way, I
think it can be seen as more pervasive through the season. The Slayer trap
and solution of course. (Take a close look at Bring On The Night. The
episode practically lays it out - problem and solution both. Buffy's
instincts are dead on. Just an epiphany (and a scythe) away from Chosen.)
But it also link into Willow and Spike, whose stories can also be seen as
ones of self empowerment.

That, incidentally, probably is a clue to The First's sometimes obscure
methods. Much of what he seeks with Willow and Spike is to get them to
self restrain themselves - keep themselves down rather than exercising their
true power. (At least for anything other than the First's bidding.) That
eventually leads to Get it Done, another episode that's big on this theme,
where Buffy pushes them to stop holding back and be what they can be. An
exercise in empowerment.


> The final shot when First-as-Buffy repeats
> Buffy's words is neat, but I'm not sure that the First really cares about
> power, as such -- doesn't it simply want to destroy the world? But maybe
> it's thinking like Buffy when it takes on her form.

Someday I'd like to hear what Joss thinks about that. Though I think I've
seen some allusions to it. I think the question preceding what the First
wants is what the first (small "f") evil is. What's the core of evil? One
possible way to look at it is through judeo-christian culture, where the
first sin is eating from the tree of knowledge. The knowledge obtained is
essentially knowing the difference between good and evil - or from another
point of view, realizing that choices matter. Now one might then see evil
as choosing evil - which is true enough. But just as important would be
failing to choose good. I get the impression that the latter concept is
fairly important to Joss's philosophy.

Perhaps the greatest evil is holding people down (or holding oneself down)
so that they cannot or will not choose to be the best they can. Slavery.
Repression. Even conformity. All conspiring to hold people back. I don't
care to argue the point of what's actually the greatest evil, but resistance
to being held back is almost primal in people, and has been the foundation
of cultural movements - including ones that appear to have influenced Joss.
Especially the particular feminist idea of women's empowerment in the face
of a patriarchal society that BtVS as a whole and this season especially is
founded upon. So it makes sense to me that something along those lines
would be the first evil that The First represents.

If so, The First would probably be less interested in destroying the world
than in enslaving it. Which certainly would be a grand exercise in power.
And about controlling everybody's power. (Though killing is OK too - as The
First has conceded multiple times. After all, that also takes people's
power away. It's just better when he gets to control it too.)


> I was recently reminded that there's at least one other famous man who
> goes shirtless almost as often as Spike:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk3lS2q9QGk

Which of them do you imagine is more naturally vulgar?


>> Season Seven, Episode 4: "Help"

> After watching Help again I started to get all proud of myself for
> spotting the similarity between Buffy at the end and Angel's "then all
> that matters is what we do" philosophy on the other show. Then I reread
> the 2006 thread and thought that the idea grew from memories of Scythe's
> post and its followups. Oh, well. It's still interesting to look at it
> from the AtS point of view. Instead of focusing on Buffy's fate as the
> one girl who can save the world, the conclusion of Help focuses on Buffy's
> conscious choice to keep trying even in the face of knowing she can't win.
> I mean, not just "can't win" in the sense that a particular foe looks
> invincible, but in the larger sense that many problems are insoluble and
> there can never be a final victory. It's not about victory, it's about
> how you choose to live your life. It would fit right in on AtS, but it's
> unusual on BtVS. I can only think of a few episodes that take a similar
> approach. There's a bit from Gingerbread, mentioned in the 2006 thread:
> Angel tells Buffy that they'll never win, but "We do it because there's
> things worth fighting for."

While that occurs in BtVS, I think it's there mainly to start establishing
the new Angel for when he heads off to AtS.


> And then there's The Wish, where Buffy fights
> on simply because it's her lot in life, even though she's devoid of hope.
> "World is what it is. We fight. We die." That could be seen as kind of a
> dark reflection of Angel's approach: still fighting without hope of an
> ultimate victory, but rooted in deadened feelings and submission to fate
> rather than personal choice.

The other thing about that is that it's specifically conceived as the
anti-BtVS scenario - what would have happened if Buffy hadn't come to
Sunnydale. So it can't be the BtVS philosophy.


> Are there other BtVS episodes with a
> similarly AtS-like approach?

Not until S7. This season deals so much with redemption and fighting the
evil within, that I can't help but think of Angel. W&H's concept of feeding
off of the evil within people is different than The First's efforts to
control it, but both seem to depend on that natural evil within humanity.

This season of BtVS emphasizes a lot the idea of being the best you can,
which is very much akin to Angel's notion of champion and hero. BtVS has
also always shared the notion of perpetual warrior. And it's explored
pretty often a sense of futility. It never ends. Is it worth it? But even
here in S7 where the notions get a little closer to AtS, I think there's
still a huge difference. BtVS remains forever optimistic, seeking and
finding triumph. Angel actually signs away his noble "destiny", presumably
because he thought it was a false one, and that he's forever consigned to
hell.


OBS

On Mar 25, 12:00 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:

> Perhaps the greatest evil is holding people down (or holding oneself down)
> so that they cannot or will not choose to be the best they can. Slavery.
> Repression. Even conformity. All conspiring to hold people back. I don't
> care to argue the point of what's actually the greatest evil, but resistance
> to being held back is almost primal in people, and has been the foundation
> of cultural movements - including ones that appear to have influenced Joss.
> Especially the particular feminist idea of women's empowerment in the face
> of a patriarchal society that BtVS as a whole and this season especially is
> founded upon. So it makes sense to me that something along those lines
> would be the first evil that The First represents.
>
> If so, The First would probably be less interested in destroying the world
> than in enslaving it. Which certainly would be a grand exercise in power.
> And about controlling everybody's power. (Though killing is OK too - as The
> First has conceded multiple times. After all, that also takes people's
> power away. It's just better when he gets to control it too.)

Let's try to hold that thought.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:6725b3ad-6ef7-4c35-9842-201bcbab3eb1@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 25, 12:00 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps the greatest evil is holding people down (or holding oneself
>> down)
>> so that they cannot or will not choose to be the best they can. Slavery.
>> Repression. Even conformity. All conspiring to hold people back. I
>> don't
>> care to argue the point of what's actually the greatest evil, but
>> resistance
>> to being held back is almost primal in people, and has been the
>> foundation
>> of cultural movements - including ones that appear to have influenced
>> Joss.
>> Especially the particular feminist idea of women's empowerment in the
>> face
>> of a patriarchal society that BtVS as a whole and this season especially
>> is
>> founded upon. So it makes sense to me that something along those lines
>> would be the first evil that The First represents.
>>
>> If so, The First would probably be less interested in destroying the
>> world
>> than in enslaving it. Which certainly would be a grand exercise in
>> power.
>> And about controlling everybody's power. (Though killing is OK too - as
>> The
>> First has conceded multiple times. After all, that also takes people's
>> power away. It's just better when he gets to control it too.)
>
> Let's try to hold that thought.

I'm a big fan of losing my thoughts. That way I can re-invent them as I
choose.

OBS

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

>> Paralysis does take a lot of the fun out of Willow. Though if I have
>> to watch anyone lie motionless and mumble without moving her jaw, it might
>> as well be her.
>
> Dawn?

Dawn is great for posing. But if anyone can keep me watching while she
just lies there like a board, it's Willow.

> She's not a "typical" angsty teen, probably specifically for the
> reason that she's a one-off guest character whom the writers want us
> to like. It seems like she's had time to assimilate the idea of dying
> - do we ever find out how long she's known?

Not for certain. There is a hint, though, in the simple fact that Cassie
got sent to Counselor Buffy because she stopped doing her homework. I
figure that must have been going on for at least a week, more likely two,
before it seemed like a counselor type of problem. And it probably hasn't
been three weeks or more, since school just started three weeks ago. So I
figure she realized she was going to die sometime around Beneath You. Of
course this isn't definite -- another possibility is that Cassie has known
for years, and just stopped bothering with homework when the fatal day
drew close.

> In this particular case, it's a bit of a mix, since on one level, this
> particular story has no final victory. On another, though, I do think
> a lot of the purpose of asking quesitons like this in S7 is to lay the
> background for Buffy to change the rules at the end. Maybe people
> like Buffy use the ATS approach to last long enough until a BTVS
> solution can happen? It's true that the two shows have different
> philosophies in that regard (and allegory-fy different periods of
> life), but I've never been able to go too deeply into how compatible
> they are or aren't.

I would say, provisionally (a good counter-argument could change my mind),
that the two series are mostly compatible. They differ in focus and tone,
but is the underlying philosophy that much different? BtVS allows Buffy
to change the world, but she doesn't actually banish all evil or destroy
the First. It's a big win, but not THE big win. On his series, Angel has
no faith in final victory, but his whole approach is based on the struggle
for one minor victory over another. So they both just do what they can,
without any expectation that the struggle will ever end. Maybe Buffy
changing the world is just one really, really big example of "if nothing
we do matters, then all that matters is what we do"?


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:

>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season Seven, Episode 1: "Lessons"
>
> I don't think Buffy's reaction was really out of character. There wasn't
> time for anything but surprise and wondering what the hell is wrong with him
> before the phone rang and the matters of the moment demanded attention.

True, Buffy had no time to think. They still found time for her to
tenderly part Spike's unbuttoned shirt, though. And it wouldn't have
taken any extra time for her to flinch or pull away when Spike stroked her
face. No matter how shocked and confused she is at that moment, it feels
wrong that Buffy doesn't show any such reaction. That should have been
pure reflex (as it is in the next episode, when Spike accidentally touches
Buffy). This wasn't the right moment to get into the issues around
Spike's return, so the scene was instead intended to set the groundwork
for getting into it later, but it fails to hit all the necessary points.
A new viewer wouldn't even realize that Buffy and Spike parted on, um, bad
terms.

> Be that is it may, I still agree with you that it's unsatisfying to the
> audience. In character or not, there's still all the baggage left from last
> season that isn't being dealt with. That's what people want to know about.
> Not drive-by Buffy and obscure babbling from Spike that makes no sense.
> (Not to mention Spike's ghastly hair.)

Definitely unsatisfying. Lessons not only fails to deal with all that
baggage, which is understandable -- as you said, it's not time for that
yet, and sometimes delayed gratification is good. But it fails to even
*hint* at the baggage very much, which is disappointing. Of course anyone
who's seen S6 probably has that baggage in mind anyway, so Joss might have
thought the hints would be redundant. But IMO the lack of hints also
makes Buffy's part less in character.

> Someday I'd like to hear what Joss thinks about that. Though I think I've
> seen some allusions to it. I think the question preceding what the First
> wants is what the first (small "f") evil is. What's the core of evil? One
> possible way to look at it is through judeo-christian culture, where the
> first sin is eating from the tree of knowledge. The knowledge obtained is
> essentially knowing the difference between good and evil - or from another
> point of view, realizing that choices matter. Now one might then see evil
> as choosing evil - which is true enough. But just as important would be
> failing to choose good. I get the impression that the latter concept is
> fairly important to Joss's philosophy.
>
> Perhaps the greatest evil is holding people down (or holding oneself down)
> so that they cannot or will not choose to be the best they can. Slavery.
> Repression. Even conformity. All conspiring to hold people back. I don't
> care to argue the point of what's actually the greatest evil, but resistance
> to being held back is almost primal in people, and has been the foundation
> of cultural movements - including ones that appear to have influenced Joss.
> Especially the particular feminist idea of women's empowerment in the face
> of a patriarchal society that BtVS as a whole and this season especially is
> founded upon. So it makes sense to me that something along those lines
> would be the first evil that The First represents.
>
> If so, The First would probably be less interested in destroying the world
> than in enslaving it. Which certainly would be a grand exercise in power.
> And about controlling everybody's power. (Though killing is OK too - as The
> First has conceded multiple times. After all, that also takes people's
> power away. It's just better when he gets to control it too.)

Some interesting thoughts about the first evil and the First Evil there.
I encourage you to bring this up again at the end of the season.
[Assuming I get this posted before then.] At first glance I'd say this
idea of disempowerment as the first evil could make a surprising amount of
sense out of the First Evil's actions in S7. "Surprising" because I
doubt ME had any fully thought out, consistent explanation for what the
First's nature and plans....

However, the idea of the First as the original source of evil still nags
at me, and I don't think any possible scheme could make that concept work.
If, for example, people couldn't have come up with murder or misogyny or
taking the last malomar in the box without the First, that undermines the
idea of free will, something that BtVS usually seems to favor. But if the
First's contribution was to provide free will, then logically it's the
First Good as well as the First Evil, yet its own behavior is definitely
on the evil side. Probably this is just one of those things best seen as
symbolic. The show tells us the First is the source of all evil because
it symbolizes the capacity for evil inherent in humanity.

Maybe its catchphrase "from beneath you it devours" is symbolic too, the
"beneath" being the dark side of human nature, the "devouring" being the
First preying on that dark side to drive people to despair. I like that a
lot better than my other, more literal interpretation, which is that it
means the First's ubervampire army is billeted in a cavern under the
ground.

>> I was recently reminded that there's at least one other famous man who
>> goes shirtless almost as often as Spike:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk3lS2q9QGk
>
> Which of them do you imagine is more naturally vulgar?

Hmmm. Well, we shouldn't assume either one is *naturally* vulgar. I
suspect Spike's thuggish but seductive swaggering rebel persona and Iggy's
Dionysian rock-n-roll wild man persona are both conscious poses, to a
great extent. Iggy is probably more vulgar in the sense that vomiting and
rolling in broken glass onstage are more vulgar than just fighting and
killing people. But the real difference between the two is in the
circumstances behind their shirt allergy. Iggy chooses to go out on stage
shirtless. Spike, on the other hand, doesn't choose; instead ME just
*happens* to show us those moments when Spike chances to be half naked.

BTW, I just posted the link to the Stooges at Madonna's hall of fame
induction 'cause it was topical. YouTube also has plenty of old footage
of Iggy and the Stooges back in their prime (mostly vomit- and
broken-glass-free). For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD_XCECbAEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLCQU8iKalA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4hPnZUMBwA )

>>> Season Seven, Episode 4: "Help"
>
> This season of BtVS emphasizes a lot the idea of being the best you can,
> which is very much akin to Angel's notion of champion and hero. BtVS has
> also always shared the notion of perpetual warrior. And it's explored
> pretty often a sense of futility. It never ends. Is it worth it? But even
> here in S7 where the notions get a little closer to AtS, I think there's
> still a huge difference. BtVS remains forever optimistic, seeking and
> finding triumph. Angel actually signs away his noble "destiny", presumably
> because he thought it was a false one, and that he's forever consigned to
> hell.

Come to think of it, even if Angel's shanshu-destiny was true, it's
*still* less optimistic than the BtVS approach. According to the
prophecy, Angel wins a couple of apocalyptic battles and becomes human
again, which is great for him personally -- but the condition of the world
itself would still be unchanged. Buffy at least gets to change the world.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

On Apr 7, 5:30 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> >>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >>> Season Seven, Episode 1: "Lessons"
>
> > I don't think Buffy's reaction was really out of character. There wasn't
> > time for anything but surprise and wondering what the hell is wrong with him
> > before the phone rang and the matters of the moment demanded attention.
>
> True, Buffy had no time to think. They still found time for her to
> tenderly part Spike's unbuttoned shirt, though. And it wouldn't have
> taken any extra time for her to flinch or pull away when Spike stroked her
> face. No matter how shocked and confused she is at that moment, it feels
> wrong that Buffy doesn't show any such reaction. That should have been
> pure reflex (as it is in the next episode, when Spike accidentally touches
> Buffy). This wasn't the right moment to get into the issues around
> Spike's return, so the scene was instead intended to set the groundwork
> for getting into it later, but it fails to hit all the necessary points.
> A new viewer wouldn't even realize that Buffy and Spike parted on, um, bad
> terms.
>
> > Be that is it may, I still agree with you that it's unsatisfying to the
> > audience. In character or not, there's still all the baggage left from last
> > season that isn't being dealt with. That's what people want to know about.
> > Not drive-by Buffy and obscure babbling from Spike that makes no sense.
> > (Not to mention Spike's ghastly hair.)
>
> Definitely unsatisfying. Lessons not only fails to deal with all that
> baggage, which is understandable -- as you said, it's not time for that
> yet, and sometimes delayed gratification is good. But it fails to even
> *hint* at the baggage very much, which is disappointing. Of course anyone
> who's seen S6 probably has that baggage in mind anyway, so Joss might have
> thought the hints would be redundant. But IMO the lack of hints also
> makes Buffy's part less in character.

Everyone has specialized skill sets, and one of yours appears to be
being even-handed but incisive as you pin down exactly why that
particular scene from "Lessons" has never worked for me.

-AOQ