Kind of late to the party here, but I've finally got hold of 'After
the Fall #4' and so here are my thoughts.


This issue continues the trend of introducing a few more characters
from the series. Now I'm wondering if this will continue, so by issue
#12 we've got a reanimated Doyle and David Nabbit making cameos, or
alternatively if the arc will resemble a sine wave, and from issue 7
onwards a few characters will die each episode until only Angel and
Wesley are left by the finale...

I did like the flashback to Angel discovering he was human. Ouch. The
repetition of 'heart racing' was a nice touch.. and presumably we are
also learning the reason for why he 'couldn't move' for his first
weeks in Hell.. a broken back will do that to you, even with magical
healing.

It's doubtless highly revealing for his motivation that Angel's
overriding desire is to get 'back to the fight' - and to help Gunn -
rather than being relieved at his apparent escape.

Little touches like Angel seeing his reflection in the glass were fun
- and we have confirmation that he is indeed human, and he doesn't
think it's because of the Shanshu because he signed that away (though
as I said last time, I'm not sure he's not mistaken there). I wonder
if Angel's muttered "we agreed not to say the h-word" is a nod to the
fan arguments?

At first I thought the two 'walk into the light' girls were from
Spike, but with hindsight their sense of humour ("Walk into the light.
Light blue Acura. It's in the garage") does seem Lornesque. And
Wesley's making with the dry self-mocking humour...

We get clarification of the relationship between Spike and Illyria; as
suspected, Spike thinks they're co-lords, the other lords think
Illyria is in charge. Illyria's own views on the matter are unknown.
(Though I can guess...). On the other hand, Spider is more of a
mystery. Is she human, demon, witch, Slayer? Apparently she was the
leader of the group before Spike came along, and in best pulp fiction
dime novel style, they captured him, he won the heart of their leader
and ended up the leader himself. I have to say, I can see a few small
problems with this storyline from a feminist perspective... Wonder if
the vision of the future where Spike has just cut off Spider's head is
symbolic of this?

Spider certainly knows her mystical artefacts; I wonder if her
eagerness to have this one is just part of her personality, or if it
was having some sort of magical One-Ringlike effect on her?

Lorne's little paradise hideaway is funny... but also a little morally
disturbing, in that he's apparently using demon-harpy mind control
magic to suppress people's more violent emotions. And Wesley, being a
ghost, is apparently immune. Hmm. Otherwise, Lorne did seem in
character, and I thought his attitude to Angel was just right.

Wesley didn't see Groosalugg coming, but some of us did. :-) His
dialogue was perfect; totally over the top and cheesy...

And then we have Gunn. Did I get that he was trying to steal something
from the W&H building ("the package was missing") but couldn't find
it? So he moved on to stage 2 of his plan, which was to blow the place
up. His pleasure in the destruction surely came =both from his human
memories and his vampire taste for violence... but the fact that
Wesley fades from view immediately after the explosion is probably the
real reason for it. I assume he's just destroyed the White Room and
with it the Senior Partners' main link to this dimension. Also, his
desire to save the photo of his human self from season 3 is both
touching and creepy.

No big shocking ending this time, which kind of says to me that the
introductions are over and we're now into the main meat of the story.

And finally, I continue to be impressed by the straightforward and
professional way Chris Ryall and IDW are happy to talk about "the
other comic" - to the extent of making jokes like the one in this
issue's letters page about Giant Dawn taking Angel's dragon for
walkies...


Stephen

On Feb 28, 2:16 pm, Stephen Tempest <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> Lorne's little paradise hideaway is funny... but also a little morally
> disturbing, in that he's apparently using demon-harpy mind control
> magic to suppress people's more violent emotions. And Wesley, being a
> ghost, is apparently immune. Hmm. Otherwise, Lorne did seem in
> character, and I thought his attitude to Angel was just right.
>

This might be mistaken, but I thought the women he sent to get Angel
were the Furies, who were always Lorne's connection for setting up the
No Demon Violence spell. If Lorne has been able to get that up and
running, it would explain how he's been able to set up a sanctuary in
Hell.

--Sam

Sam <hyperevolvedmonkey@gmail.com> wrote in
news:d77b87dd-8123-4cff-99f8-20837790e522@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.co
m:

> On Feb 28, 2:16 pm, Stephen Tempest
> <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Lorne's little paradise hideaway is funny... but also a little
>> morally disturbing, in that he's apparently using demon-harpy
>> mind control magic to suppress people's more violent emotions.
>> And Wesley, being a ghost, is apparently immune. Hmm.
>> Otherwise, Lorne did seem in character, and I thought his
>> attitude to Angel was just right.
>>
>
> This might be mistaken, but I thought the women he sent to get
> Angel were the Furies, who were always Lorne's connection for
> setting up the No Demon Violence spell. If Lorne has been able
> to get that up and running, it would explain how he's been able
> to set up a sanctuary in Hell.

It did occur to me that Lorne seems to have set up something
resembling a larger version of Caritas.

Except with not as much singing (aside from the Harpy).

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

On Feb 28, 1:16 pm, Stephen Tempest <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> This issue continues the trend of introducing a few more characters
> from the series. Now I'm wondering if this will continue, so by issue
> #12 we've got a reanimated Doyle and David Nabbit making cameos, or
> alternatively if the arc will resemble a sine wave, and from issue 7
> onwards a few characters will die each episode until only Angel and
> Wesley are left by the finale...

Well, the show does seem to have had a lot of characters that can be
brought in. I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one of the dead
lawyers when W&H's exact role/fate is explained. I can't really think
of a place for Cordy, who hasn't even been mentioned except in the one
photo, though; despite being a big part of _Angel_ for so long, she
drops quietly off my radar once the later-season cast fills out. As I
said in another thread, the person in the left of the middle row of
the cast cover for issue #5 looks a lot like Justine, although I
assume it's actually supposed to be Gwen.

I have a bit of a problem with Lorne's appearance here. Not that it
doesn't come off well, and not that I just don't like him so much. My
problem is that of all the characters, he's the one whose arc got an
ending (ironic given that he's the one who supposedly walked out
alive). His final scene in "Not Fade Away" was perfect, and for the
purposes of ATS, his story is over after that, period. Seeing him
again running a little sanctuary in the world of monsters, basically
resetting his relationship with Angel in one line of dialogue, can't
help but feel like the story is backsliding. Maybe I'm alone in this,
and maybe people thought the same thing (incorrectly) about Faith post-
[several possible choices], or Connor post-"Home." But that's my
feeling.

Groosalugg, on the other hand, is perfectly suited to be a bit player
in this story. Good to see he doesn't have any hard feelings towards
Angel about Cordelia, but maybe that's to be expected. He's a noble
barbarian hero, after all.

I'm not going to respond point-by-point so much because, well, not
much happens in this issue. It feels like the banter leading up to a
big mid-season climax. And it's entertaining banter; the comic kept
my attention and got me more in the mood for a big fight next issue,
which means that it did its job well. But that 22-page format
again... It was a little disappointing to basically end up waiting
for the second half of the episode that we won't get for another
month. We still have Angel playing his own game, more motivated by
W&H's actions than would befit a normal comic book hero, and not
wanting to let the reader in on what he has (and hasn't) got planned.
We're still killing time until the big after-school rumble.
Theoretically, the onus is now on issue #5 to be a satisfying payoff
for this act of the story while hitting us with the cliffhanger
that'll link to the stuff after the "First Night" interlude.

> No big shocking ending this time, which kind of says to me that the
> introductions are over and we're now into the main meat of the story.

It worked okay, though, in that Gunn has things going on beyond what
we've seen, and that we don't know how Wes will come back.

> And finally, I continue to be impressed by the straightforward and
> professional way Chris Ryall and IDW are happy to talk about "the
> other comic" - to the extent of making jokes like the one in this
> issue's letters page about Giant Dawn taking Angel's dragon for
> walkies...

They're both theoretically indie comics, but ATF is run much more like
one that lieks it that way. And despite not really doing comics, I
was amused by Chris's joke about the 900-number vote on whether Wesley
should live.

Other thoughts: On p, 4, Wesley has to go through the same kind of
mockery that Buffy puts Giles through. Sometimes it's no fun being
the bespectacled British guy who helps with the magic rituals.

"Don't stress, vampire and ghost."

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:c7903668-6643-4075-a678-cb4e85c5b523@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.c
om:

> On Feb 28, 1:16 pm, Stephen Tempest
> <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> This issue continues the trend of introducing a few more
>> characters from the series. Now I'm wondering if this will
>> continue, so by issue #12 we've got a reanimated Doyle and
>> David Nabbit making cameos, or alternatively if the arc will
>> resemble a sine wave, and from issue 7 onwards a few characters
>> will die each episode until only Angel and Wesley are left by
>> the finale...
>
> Well, the show does seem to have had a lot of characters that
> can be brought in. I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one
> of the dead lawyers when W&H's exact role/fate is explained. I
> can't really think of a place for Cordy, who hasn't even been
> mentioned except in the one photo, though; despite being a big
> part of _Angel_ for so long, she drops quietly off my radar once
> the later-season cast fills out. As I said in another thread,
> the person in the left of the middle row of the cast cover for
> issue #5 looks a lot like Justine, although I assume it's
> actually supposed to be Gwen.
>

Speaking of the #5 cover. Who's that to the left of Gunn?

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> writes:

>the person in the left of the middle row of
>the cast cover for issue #5 looks a lot like Justine

Justine? Wouldn't she have red hair in that case? Although it would be
interesting to see what happened to her after the start of season 4.


>I have a bit of a problem with Lorne's appearance here. Not that it
>doesn't come off well, and not that I just don't like him so much. My
>problem is that of all the characters, he's the one whose arc got an
>ending (ironic given that he's the one who supposedly walked out
>alive).

Yeah. In one way, I think it's part of the message behind all these
comics: in storytales you can have a happy (or tragic, or heroic)
ending... but in real life, things go on and stuff continues to happen
(to you or your descendants). "There are always consquences" is one of
Joss's favourite morals.

So when Lorne threw down the gun and walked away, he didn't just leave
the stage and vanish never to be seen again, however emotionally
satisfying that may be from a story point of view. He went *somewhere*
and did *something*. Now we know what.

Though I do agree, brushing all that away with a simple "I was having
a grey period and didn't enjoy it, but I'm ovber it and still want to
help" does seem rather weak...

Stephen

Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com> writes:

>Speaking of the #5 cover. Who's that to the left of Gunn?

It's a mystery that has baffled the finest minds of fandom. :-)

I'm 80% sure it's the Groosalugg, and 55% sure he's cut and gelled his
hair to look more like Angel, possibly as part of a scheme to fool the
Lords of Los Angeles.

Stephen

On Mar 2, 8:58 am, Stephen Tempest <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> >the person in the left of the middle row of
> >the cast cover for issue #5 looks a lot like Justine
>
> Justine? Wouldn't she have red hair in that case? Although it would be
> interesting to see what happened to her after the start of season 4.

Not necessarily, given this artist. (Actually, she seems to have blue-
tinted hair, although obviously not to the level of Illyria below
her.) I do believe that it's supposed to be Gwen, but seriously,
ignore the hair and look at the face and try to tell me she doesn't
look like Justine.

-AOQ

Stephen Tempest <stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:h4gls3pof4fsgugo93576dv7699o7kstvi@4ax.com:

> Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com> writes:
>
>>Speaking of the #5 cover. Who's that to the left of Gunn?
>
> It's a mystery that has baffled the finest minds of fandom. :-)
>
> I'm 80% sure it's the Groosalugg, and 55% sure he's cut and
> gelled his hair to look more like Angel, possibly as part of a
> scheme to fool the Lords of Los Angeles.

Or maybe Cordelia's back in town... :-)

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Stephen Tempest <stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> This issue continues the trend of introducing a few more characters
> from the series. Now I'm wondering if this will continue, so by issue
> #12 we've got a reanimated Doyle and David Nabbit making cameos, or

If that happens, I definitely want to see my favorite non-main-cast women
again: Kate, Justine, and most of all, Lilah. I'm not going to hold my
breath, though. Meanwhile, I wonder if the people Angel rescued and sent
to Connor in #1 will ever reappear; I had expected the woman, at least, to
become a recurring character.

If Doyle's ghost does show up, I imagine he'll be quite disappointed to
learn that the champion he tried to guide wound up getting the whole city
sent to hell. And he'll probably be furious that he "let" Cordy be
possessed and killed.

> alternatively if the arc will resemble a sine wave, and from issue 7
> onwards a few characters will die each episode until only Angel and
> Wesley are left by the finale...

No way. Spike will still be around, to gloriously save everyone while in
no way detracting from Angel's story.

> I did like the flashback to Angel discovering he was human. Ouch. The
> repetition of 'heart racing' was a nice touch.. and presumably we are
> also learning the reason for why he 'couldn't move' for his first
> weeks in Hell.. a broken back will do that to you, even with magical
> healing.

This was certainly my favorite part of the issue. I really appreciated
Angel's stream-of-consciousness narration, which even found room for a
little humor ("Zombie? Lame"), and the devastatingly simple "Oh" over his
shocked face as the truth sank in. And the final "I'm sorry." "So am I."

That spellbook Angel is reading from bears a distracting resemblance to
the book of magical creatures from Harry Potter.

> At first I thought the two 'walk into the light' girls were from
> Spike, but with hindsight their sense of humour ("Walk into the light.
> Light blue Acura. It's in the garage") does seem Lornesque. And
> Wesley's making with the dry self-mocking humour...

The "walk into the light" thing is Lornesque, but more than that, it's
Whedonesque. When you note Wesley's self-mocking humor, do you mean the
"maybe it's my time" part or the "well that was a short-lived excitement"
part? Because I thought that the latter showed that the former wasn't a
joke. I also liked the way Angel instinctively tried to push Wesley out
of harm's way when Lorne's girls showed up.

> We get clarification of the relationship between Spike and Illyria; as
> suspected, Spike thinks they're co-lords, the other lords think
> Illyria is in charge. Illyria's own views on the matter are unknown.
> (Though I can guess...). On the other hand, Spider is more of a
> mystery. Is she human, demon, witch, Slayer? Apparently she was the
> leader of the group before Spike came along, and in best pulp fiction
> dime novel style, they captured him, he won the heart of their leader
> and ended up the leader himself. I have to say, I can see a few small
> problems with this storyline from a feminist perspective... Wonder if
> the vision of the future where Spike has just cut off Spider's head is
> symbolic of this?

With a line like "You're the best thing about this or any world," there
simply MUST be more backstory here. I hope. Some sort of spell, or
side-effect of Illyria's powers perhaps? Spider's devotion is just too
excessive to be taken straight, no matter how dramatic Spike's cheekbones
are. Or maybe the secret is that Spider's reactions just aren't human;
I'm thinking that she and the other ladies are near-human demons who were
already in hell when LA showed up.

The clothes in the historical vision bothered me a little. I'm far from
an expert, but Spider's look like something from about 1890, and Spike's
from about 1820, with his ruffled shirt and long hair and all. But
Spider's line about her rumblings was good risque fun.

So we learn who the mysterious Lord of Silverlake is. Will he get more
dramatic moments like his final scene in NFA, or will he go right back
into his role of comic relief with occasional mind-reading? Not that I
don't enjoy seeing that, in reasonable quantities, but it *is* a very
limited role.

> Wesley didn't see Groosalugg coming, but some of us did. :-) His
> dialogue was perfect; totally over the top and cheesy...

Every line was worth a laugh to me. I especially liked his enthusiasm
about Wesley's dead state and Angel's plan to re-die in battle.

> And then we have Gunn. Did I get that he was trying to steal something
> from the W&H building ("the package was missing") but couldn't find
> it? So he moved on to stage 2 of his plan, which was to blow the place
> up. His pleasure in the destruction surely came =both from his human
> memories and his vampire taste for violence... but the fact that
> Wesley fades from view immediately after the explosion is probably the
> real reason for it.

Maybe, but the ultimate goal in cutting off Wesley is surely to hurt
Angel, nothing to do with Wesley himself. I liked how Gunn leaned into
the explosion that knocked his two minions off their feet. It reminded me
at first of Illyria enjoying the dragon's firey breath last issue, though
that was just her way of having fun and didn't have the long emotional
backstory that Gunn and W&H have.

> And finally, I continue to be impressed by the straightforward and
> professional way Chris Ryall and IDW are happy to talk about "the
> other comic" - to the extent of making jokes like the one in this
> issue's letters page about Giant Dawn taking Angel's dragon for
> walkies...

I'll look forward to getting all these promised answers (except for the
girl question -- is there any doubt it was Fred?). But I really doubt it
will be "soon enough" as this Chris fellow promises, unless they switch to
a weekly publication schedule. Or maybe daily.


--the other Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 04:13:39 -0000, chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
wrote:

:That spellbook Angel is reading from bears a distracting resemblance to
:the book of magical creatures from Harry Potter.

If so, then Harry Potter stole the look from the
version of the Necronomicon in "Evil Dead".
--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."

-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy

George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'