A reminder: If these threads ain't dead, I'm gonna kill them.


ANGEL
Season Four, Episode 1: "Deep Down"
Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
Director: Terrence O'Hara

I had to watch this one one extra time to justify the fact that it's
always been a Good rather than an Excellent to me. I mean, what's
wrong with it? Doesn't it have a nicely shot opening that sets the
stage for the whole year? Doesn't it convey a good mood of
perseverance in the face of listless depression, and keep surprising
the viewer with where characters have ended up? Isn't it a great
Wesley episode, making us realize that, unexpectedly, his eyes are
more focused on what has to be done then ever? (It also gives us the
amazing intensity of the Wes/Justine sequences and some killer lines
like his response to the accusation that he doesn't care.) Isn't it
uplifting to see Angel on dry land and speechifying in an interesting
way again? Doesn't DD have no major flaws (at least in this
reviewer's opinion)? But when I watch it, it's clearly Good. I
suppose Excellence requires a little something extra, more than merely
being a very solid episode that lacks many problems. The only thing I
can add is that a large enough proportion of the episode involves
characters finding out about things that the audience already knows
that it can't be as exciting as a "Benedicition." Meanwhile, however
entertainingly it's done, an hour that moves the show back towards the
status quo is rarely as awe-inspiring as one that shakes up the fabric
of the series.
Rating: Good


Season Four, Episode 2: "Ground State"
Writer: Mere Smith
Director: Michael Grossman

The final entrant in the series' big run of Good-to-Excellent
episodes, and few will accuse it of being on the same level as the
others. Electro-Gwen has never really worked for me as a character,
especially given how erratically she drops in and out of the show. As
another example of the ever-popular heist show, GS entertains even
when it doesn't wow. Also as with so many other Buffyverse entries,
what helps elevate it above a simple lightweight episode is the way it
makes time for its characters. Here I'm thinking of the impromptu art
competition that sets up Fred cracking under pressure later, and
definitely of the "strangely intimate" (Chris's term) discussion
between Angel and Lilah. Also, of the several Wesley/Lilah sex scenes
in ATS, the one in this episode is the hottest.
Rating: Good


Season Four, Episode 3: "The House Always Wins"
Writer: David Fury
Director: Marita Grabiak

We went back and forth a little bit about the driving force of every
individual having a single "destiny" that can be taken away. It's a
premise that still makes me a little bit angry and consider throwing
around words like "offensive" that don't really belong in a discussion
about a fantasy TV show. Because of that, I'm not inclined to come up
with ways to make the premise fit neatly into a Buffyverse that it
doesn't seem to belong to at first blush. I do think this is the kind
of thing that I'd cheerfully ignore if THAW were an engaging episode.
Instead, it remains one of the tedious few that're almost completely
devoid of anything that is in any way interesting to me. I suppose it
helps if one likes shticky musical performances, but even that only
covers a few minutes, and I remain oblivious about what's allegedly so
amusing about Fred as a Lornette. After this episode, I first
articulated my running idea that no episode featuring Angel being
possessed or ensorcelled in a way that changes his personality can
ever be particularly good. (No, smartasses, the original gypsy curse
that created the character as we know him to begin with doesn't
count.) I don't hold that as an absolute rule for any other
character.
Rating: Bad


Season Four, Episode 4: "Slouching Toward Bethlehem"
Writer: Jeffrey Bell
Director: Skip Schoolnik

"Slouching Toward Bethlehem" (hereafter "Slouching," since "Spin The
Bottle" seems to "own" the STB acronym) starts off as a story about
Amnesiac Cordy, full of continuity porn and reminiscing about what she
means to everyone (as if we haven't heard that five hundred times).
It's weird and kinda pointless, but at least I'm entertained. Then
Connor shows up to complicate things, and W&H shows its interest, and
Wesley tries to play Lilah again, and the whole thing ends up feeling
like the first step on the road to something bigger. Neat trick,
that. I admire the cleverness of the construct that more or less
guarantees that by simple virtue of showing up later, Connor will seem
more trustworthy to Cordelia than Angel does. I'm curious how much
people's feelings about this episode mirror their feelings about the
year as a whole. For me, "Slouching" (similar to S4) feels unwieldy
in places, but damned if it doesn't end up working pretty nicely.
Rating: Good


Additional comments on S4D1: I continue to maintain that the way
Fred's recklessness in her attack on Connor is entirely in character.
Lulling him into a sense of security before attacking him with the
same weapon he used on Angel is very much her style. Especially in
light of "Supersymmetry." I made that argument last time. On a
lighter Fred-in-"Deep Down" note, her attempts to incorporate "street"
language make for one of my favorite examples of character-based humor
that lasts for only one episode.

I immediately commented that the disappearance (so to speak) of Dennis
from the series didn't bode well for Cordelia-based storylines. I
hope someone thought to fill him in on the story sometime - he seemed
really worried about her.

Okay, I know ME isn't big with such things, but I spent a little time
fruitlessly trying to work out the chronology involved in this year.
Basically, the issue is that "Deep Down" is explicitly established to
take place about three months after "Tomorrow." So, roughly the same
time as "Lessons." Now, S7 of BTVS may not last all the way until May
(the apocalypse comes early this year...), but it clearly takes place
over a number of months. I can't imagine it not being spring semester
by the time of "Lies My Parents Tell Me." In the meantime, ATS has a
lot of "one episode leading right into the next one" stuff; almost
every show of S4 begins either at the moment the previous one ended or
the next day. Most of the story takes place over a few weeks. Yet
the same amount of time theoretically has to have elapsed when the
shows intersect again at LMPTM/"Orpheus."

So, where's the missing half-year in the ATS continuity? My original
fan-wanky plan was to presume a lot of not-much-happening time during
the first few episodes of the year, between the end of "Deep Down" and
the beginning of THAW (although it certainly doesn't feel like months
are elapsing). The problem is that Lorne has already been a Vegas
star for some time in "Deep Down" - presumably since early in the
summer because that's the explanation for why he isn't in contact with
the L.A. gang. In "The House Always Wins," a sign tells us that Lorne
has been performing at the Tropicana for 17 weeks. By the logic used
above, it's probably been a little bit more than a month since DD,
which "feels" right from the play of the episodes. (That's not set in
stone, though. Maybe his act was booked at a different hotel before
the current run at the Tropicana?) THAW, of course, leads directly
into "Slouching," and that kicks off the arc that never really stops.
There may be a little bit of down time between "Slouching" and
"Supersymmetry," but certainly not months. Ipso facto, Joss and
company suck at math and keeping track of fictional time.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 16:20:03 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality
<tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

>Okay, I know ME isn't big with such things, but I spent a little time
>fruitlessly trying to work out the chronology involved in this year.
>Basically, the issue is that "Deep Down" is explicitly established to
>take place about three months after "Tomorrow." So, roughly the same
>time as "Lessons." Now, S7 of BTVS may not last all the way until May
>(the apocalypse comes early this year...), but it clearly takes place
>over a number of months. I can't imagine it not being spring semester
>by the time of "Lies My Parents Tell Me." In the meantime, ATS has a
>lot of "one episode leading right into the next one" stuff; almost
>every show of S4 begins either at the moment the previous one ended or
>the next day. Most of the story takes place over a few weeks. Yet
>the same amount of time theoretically has to have elapsed when the
>shows intersect again at LMPTM/"Orpheus."
>
>So, where's the missing half-year in the ATS continuity? My original
>fan-wanky plan was to presume a lot of not-much-happening time during
>the first few episodes of the year, between the end of "Deep Down" and
>the beginning of THAW (although it certainly doesn't feel like months
>are elapsing). The problem is that Lorne has already been a Vegas
>star for some time in "Deep Down" - presumably since early in the
>summer because that's the explanation for why he isn't in contact with
>the L.A. gang. In "The House Always Wins," a sign tells us that Lorne
>has been performing at the Tropicana for 17 weeks. By the logic used
>above, it's probably been a little bit more than a month since DD,
>which "feels" right from the play of the episodes. (That's not set in
>stone, though. Maybe his act was booked at a different hotel before
>the current run at the Tropicana?) THAW, of course, leads directly
>into "Slouching," and that kicks off the arc that never really stops.
>There may be a little bit of down time between "Slouching" and
>"Supersymmetry," but certainly not months. Ipso facto, Joss and
>company suck at math and keeping track of fictional time.

As you know Bob, we have certainly played this game on the newsgroup
before. The first thing to do is to nail down the 'timestamps' we do know.

Deep Down takes place about three months after Tomorrow.

We don't know how much time passes between Deep Down and Ground State, but
they are not heel and toe like the Beast/Angelus eps are.

We don't know how much time passes between Ground State and THAW either,
but again they aren't heel and toe.

THAW and Slouching are heel and toe, the closing scene of THAW leads
directly to the opening scene of Slouching.

Slouching and Supersymmetry are not heel and toe.

Supersymmetry and Spin the Bottle are not heel and toe, and, in fact, the
point is made that the frission between Fred and Gunn has had time to
simmer.

Time also passes between Spin and Apoc.

And then we're into 9 episode run where, for all practical purposes, no
time passes between episodes, only during episodes.

Over on Buffy, there are virtually no heel and toe episodes until the end
of the season. We know that Lessons is the first day of school, we know
CWDP takes place on November 12th at 8pm (it says so right at the front).
We know that Bring On The Night takes place just before Christmas. We know
Potential takes place in early January after school has started again. We
have some time passing references for TKIM and Storyteller, and, of course,
we know that LMPTM takes place concurrently with Orpheus.

Tracking the internal passage of time through the Beast/Angelus run, the
whole thing takes place between 15 to 20 days. Figuring backwards from
LMPTM, that means that entire run takes place between TKIM and LMPTM, maybe
even between Storyteller and LMPTM.

That means Deeo Down to Apocalypse Nowish takes place from September to
February.

We know that Deep Down is in September sometime. We know that Lorne has
been at the Tropicana for 17 weeks in THAW, but we don't know when he
started (except that it was sometime after May). If he didn't start at the
Tropicana until August, then THAW and Slouching could take place in
November, Supersymmetry in December, Spin the Bottle in January, and
Apocalypse Nowish through Orpheus from late February through early March.


--
"Oh Buffy, you really do need to have
every square inch of your *** kicked."
- Willow Rosenberg

On Mar 3, 12:45 am, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 16:20:03 -0800 (PST), Arbitrar Of Quality
>
>
>
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >Okay, I know ME isn't big with such things, but I spent a little time
> >fruitlessly trying to work out the chronology involved in this year.
> >Basically, the issue is that "Deep Down" is explicitly established to
> >take place about three months after "Tomorrow." So, roughly the same
> >time as "Lessons." Now, S7 of BTVS may not last all the way until May
> >(the apocalypse comes early this year...), but it clearly takes place
> >over a number of months. I can't imagine it not being spring semester
> >by the time of "Lies My Parents Tell Me." In the meantime, ATS has a
> >lot of "one episode leading right into the next one" stuff; almost
> >every show of S4 begins either at the moment the previous one ended or
> >the next day. Most of the story takes place over a few weeks. Yet
> >the same amount of time theoretically has to have elapsed when the
> >shows intersect again at LMPTM/"Orpheus."
>
> >So, where's the missing half-year in the ATS continuity? My original
> >fan-wanky plan was to presume a lot of not-much-happening time during
> >the first few episodes of the year, between the end of "Deep Down" and
> >the beginning of THAW (although it certainly doesn't feel like months
> >are elapsing). The problem is that Lorne has already been a Vegas
> >star for some time in "Deep Down" - presumably since early in the
> >summer because that's the explanation for why he isn't in contact with
> >the L.A. gang. In "The House Always Wins," a sign tells us that Lorne
> >has been performing at the Tropicana for 17 weeks. By the logic used
> >above, it's probably been a little bit more than a month since DD,
> >which "feels" right from the play of the episodes. (That's not set in
> >stone, though. Maybe his act was booked at a different hotel before
> >the current run at the Tropicana?) THAW, of course, leads directly
> >into "Slouching," and that kicks off the arc that never really stops.
> >There may be a little bit of down time between "Slouching" and
> >"Supersymmetry," but certainly not months. Ipso facto, Joss and
> >company suck at math and keeping track of fictional time.
>
> As you know Bob, we have certainly played this game on the newsgroup
> before. The first thing to do is to nail down the 'timestamps' we do know.

Thanks for the ones from BTVS; I knew we were well past winter break
by the end of the year, but couldn't remember where the specific
references came in.

> Supersymmetry and Spin the Bottle are not heel and toe, and, in fact, the
> point is made that the frission between Fred and Gunn has had time to
> simmer.

Not true. STB proceeds directly from the closing scene of
"Supersymmetry," a scene which begins with Fred and Gunn and Angel
returning to the hotel immediately after the death of the professor.
Lorne later refers to the Fred/Gunn/Wesley intrigue as having happened
"a few hours ago."

> Time also passes between Spin and Apoc.

Not much. Does this sound like any significant time (i.e. more than a
day or two) has passed?

LORNE: I said why. Now, let's meet in the middle with a "why no?"
ANGEL: It's too soon. (walks to front desk)
LORNE: But she got her memory back. Aren't you a weensy curious if
Cordy remembers anything about her little stint as a Miss Higher
Power? Oh, say, maybe something about the thing-a-ma-bad that Wolfram
& Hart sucked outta my noggin?
ANGEL: We need to give her time to adjust before we start coming at
her with a million questions.
LORNE: How 'bout one? One's good.
ANGEL: In a couple of days, when she's more herself.

> And then we're into 9 episode run where, for all practical purposes, no
> time passes between episodes, only during episodes.
>
> Tracking the internal passage of time through the Beast/Angelus run, the
> whole thing takes place between 15 to 20 days. Figuring backwards from
> LMPTM, that means that entire run takes place between TKIM and LMPTM, maybe
> even between Storyteller and LMPTM.
>
> That means Deeo Down to Apocalypse Nowish takes place from September to
> February.

I maintain that the only place to throw missing time is during the DD-
THAW period. And that certainly doesn't feel like Sept. through Feb.
kind of time, although there's nothing directly contradicting it if we
fanwank the Tropicana sign. (Or maybe January, since "Sypersymmetry"
takes place some time after "Slouching," but I really don't see it
being more than a couple weeks, at most. Cordelia living with Connor
is still a fairly recent development.)

Now, since the remaining BTVS episodes are pretty much "heel to toe"
starting from LMPTM, does that leave enough time for Jasmine's birth
and death over the L.A. side?

-AOQ

> Season Four, Episode 3: "The House Always Wins"

The last episode portraying the real-nonamnesiac-non-higher-being-
exempted-regressed-to-adolescence-Cordelia until "You're Welcome".
>
> Additional comments on S4D1: I continue to maintain that the way
> Fred's recklessness in her attack on Connor is entirely in character.
> Lulling him into a sense of security before attacking him with the
> same weapon he used on Angel is very much her style. Especially in
> light of "Supersymmetry." I made that argument last time.

The unfortunate side-effect is what it does to Connor. Just like some
stupid british guy's badly-handled solution to Faith in BTVS S3,
Fred's ferocious attack made sure Angel Jr. never trusted anyone on
Team Angel ever again. Seeing how Connor seemed to like Fred before
the truth came out, perhaps a less reckless tactic by her (say a
purely vocal confrontation) might have maintained that friendship.
This would render Jasmine's seduction more difficult (if not
unsuccessful).

Meanwhile, I wonder what Connor would have thought of BTVS Cordy.

Y'know AOQ, once these revisiting threads are done, how about
character analysis? You can describe how
you liked/disliked a certain character, how he or she developed and
improved over the seven/eight
years (or worsened).

A.Gerard

In article <15745389-6731-4a3b-a158-cbd3f950f212@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
angmc43@hotmail.com wrote:

> > Season Four, Episode 3: "The House Always Wins"
>
> The last episode portraying the real-nonamnesiac-non-higher-being-
> exempted-regressed-to-adolescence-Cordelia until "You're Welcome".
> >
> > Additional comments on S4D1: I continue to maintain that the way
> > Fred's recklessness in her attack on Connor is entirely in character.
> > Lulling him into a sense of security before attacking him with the
> > same weapon he used on Angel is very much her style. Especially in
> > light of "Supersymmetry." I made that argument last time.
>
> The unfortunate side-effect is what it does to Connor. Just like some
> stupid british guy's badly-handled solution to Faith in BTVS S3,
> Fred's ferocious attack made sure Angel Jr. never trusted anyone on

angel jr with malice aforethought conspired to kidnapped his father
and torture him into madness

i think he should get some negative reinforcement to discourage repeats

i dont think connors life should be ruined to punish him
especially considered how he was abused as he grew up
but he should be taught bad actions have unpleasant consequences


faith was different
there was no intention to harm a human
and at least at first she was upset but trying to suppress affect

she didnt need negative reinforcement
she needed to accept what she did and deal with the emotions instead suppressing

> purely vocal confrontation) might have maintained that friendship.
> This would render Jasmine's seduction more difficult (if not
> unsuccessful).

the years of abuse had more to do with that than one incident
as connor pointed out
where he grew up there was no beauty
so jasmines real appearance did not perturb him

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

On Mar 9, 6:11 pm, mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fh...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> In article <15745389-6731-4a3b-a158-cbd3f950f...@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> angm...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > Season Four, Episode 3: "The House Always Wins"
>
> > The last episode portraying the real-nonamnesiac-non-higher-being-
> > exempted-regressed-to-adolescence-Cordelia until "You're Welcome".
>
> > > Additional comments on S4D1: I continue to maintain that the way
> > > Fred's recklessness in her attack on Connor is entirely in character.
> > > Lulling him into a sense of security before attacking him with the
> > > same weapon he used on Angel is very much her style. Especially in
> > > light of "Supersymmetry." I made that argument last time.
>
> > The unfortunate side-effect is what it does to Connor. Just like some
> > stupid british guy's badly-handled solution to Faith in BTVS S3,
> > Fred's ferocious attack made sure Angel Jr. never trusted anyone on
>
> angel jr with malice aforethought conspired to kidnapped his father
> and torture him into madness
>
> i think he should get some negative reinforcement to discourage repeats

Although Fred provided "punishment" rather than "negative
reinforcement," if you want to get technical. (Sorry, one of my
nitpicky things. The term "reinforcement" refers to a reward in
response to a stimulus; the reinforcement can involve either providing
something desirable [positive] or getting rid of something undesirable
[negative], but in either case, the goal is to encourage the behavior
that's being reinforced.)

> > purely vocal confrontation) might have maintained that friendship.
> > This would render Jasmine's seduction more difficult (if not
> > unsuccessful).
>
> the years of abuse had more to do with that than one incident
> as connor pointed out
> where he grew up there was no beauty
> so jasmines real appearance did not perturb him

In any case, I agree that we should remember that Connor, after having
tried to sentence his father to an eternity of hell and lying about it
to the people who trusted him, shouldn't be treated with kid gloves.
He's been seriously warped into an instrument of vengeance, and love
alone won't be enough to "save" him. However, Angel tries; he pretty
much does keep the confrontation verbal rather than physical, and
continues to let Connor know that he loves him. (After the last
summer, I can't fault him for not feeling safe letting Connor stay in
the hotel.) I really can't see much basis to conclude that Fred doing
anything differently would have had much long-term effect after Cordy/
Jasmine got to work.

-AOQ

> In any case, I agree that we should remember that Connor, after having
> tried to sentence his father to an eternity of hell and lying about it
> to the people who trusted him, shouldn't be treated with kid gloves.
> He's been seriously warped into an instrument of vengeance, and love
> alone won't be enough to "save" him. However, Angel tries; he pretty
> much does keep the confrontation verbal rather than physical, and
> continues to let Connor know that he loves him. (After the last
> summer, I can't fault him for not feeling safe letting Connor stay in
> the hotel.) I really can't see much basis to conclude that Fred doing
> anything differently would have had much long-term effect after Cordy/
> Jasmine got to work.

i dont think connors ejection was a safety issue
connor could and did sneak back
rather by denying him the only family he had
it was intended to pressure him to act nice to get back in

its a trick used by other social animals to discipline the young

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:2fced64b-7c5d-45b3-9e3c-1ee9f72eff83@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: If these threads ain't dead, I'm gonna kill them.
>
[snip]
>
> Season Four, Episode 2: "Ground State"
> Writer: Mere Smith
> Director: Michael Grossman
>
> The final entrant in the series' big run of Good-to-Excellent
> episodes, and few will accuse it of being on the same level as the
> others. Electro-Gwen has never really worked for me as a character,
> especially given how erratically she drops in and out of the show.

My sense is that she was provisional as a long-term guest character, but was
dropped because Angel was starting to look like a superhero team ala
"Justice League of America". They certainly invested a few bucks in the set
for her apartment and her back-story.

As
> another example of the ever-popular heist show, GS entertains even
> when it doesn't wow. Also as with so many other Buffyverse entries,
> what helps elevate it above a simple lightweight episode is the way it
> makes time for its characters. Here I'm thinking of the impromptu art
> competition that sets up Fred cracking under pressure later, and
> definitely of the "strangely intimate" (Chris's term) discussion
> between Angel and Lilah. Also, of the several Wesley/Lilah sex scenes
> in ATS, the one in this episode is the hottest.
> Rating: Good
>

I have to say first, I loved "Angel" but I'm not nearly the connisseur that
you are. Also, I never took it seriously -- inconsitancies like Angel's
heart starting to beat from Gwen's shock just don't bother me at all.

This was one of my favorite episodes. I can still remember watching it on
its original television episode. The shot of Gwen walking into the bar
almost dropped me to the floor. They took so much time to set up the scene,
with the long back-story in the introduction.

I loved the character -- the lipstick before the job, the "how old are you,
seven?" quote, Angel's heart coming to life and the big kiss, etc. The
whole episode was full of fun -- Fred and Angel's drawings, "Large and in
charge", her calling Gunn "Denzel", and on and on.

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:2fced64b-7c5d-45b3-9e3c-1ee9f72eff83@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: If these threads ain't dead, I'm gonna kill them.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Four, Episode 1: "Deep Down"
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Terrence O'Hara
>
> I had to watch this one one extra time to justify the fact that it's
> always been a Good rather than an Excellent to me. I mean, what's
> wrong with it? Doesn't it have a nicely shot opening that sets the
> stage for the whole year? Doesn't it convey a good mood of
> perseverance in the face of listless depression, and keep surprising
> the viewer with where characters have ended up? Isn't it a great
> Wesley episode, making us realize that, unexpectedly, his eyes are
> more focused on what has to be done then ever? (It also gives us the
> amazing intensity of the Wes/Justine sequences and some killer lines
> like his response to the accusation that he doesn't care.) Isn't it
> uplifting to see Angel on dry land and speechifying in an interesting
> way again? Doesn't DD have no major flaws (at least in this
> reviewer's opinion)? But when I watch it, it's clearly Good. I
> suppose Excellence requires a little something extra, more than merely
> being a very solid episode that lacks many problems. The only thing I
> can add is that a large enough proportion of the episode involves
> characters finding out about things that the audience already knows
> that it can't be as exciting as a "Benedicition." Meanwhile, however
> entertainingly it's done, an hour that moves the show back towards the
> status quo is rarely as awe-inspiring as one that shakes up the fabric
> of the series.
> Rating: Good

Perhaps. But it sure towers over any other AtS season opener.

This episode does wrap up loose ends more than it propels forward. Not that
it stands still. The changed status of Wesley with regards to himself,
Lilah, and Angel promises much. As does Lilah's self-promotion at W&H and
the new edge of father/son conflict between Angel and Connor. I think it's
made clear that Lorne will be part of this season, which presumably can't
reside in Las Vegas. And, of course, we're reminded of the great Cordy
mystery. But all of this points at doors to be opened without much hint as
to what's behind them.

Obviously the main loose end to be dealt with happens to have been a honking
huge S3 season ending cliffhanger. So I find it difficult to criticize to
whatever extent the episode looks back. Especially with so many scenes
delivered with force. I love Lilah seizing the reins at W&H. I can really
feel her satisfaction at making Gavin clear Linwood's head from the table -
the essential weakness of both properly revealed. And I like to fell off my
chair when Wesley unlocked his closet to reveal the bound and gagged Justine
within. Not to mention electro-shock Fred going at Connor. (Side note -
while I don't think Fred's hair and make-up this episode is her most
attractive look, but it does make her look a little exotic in a magic witch
kind
of way that I really like.)

You're right that this doesn't stand up to Benediction, but gee, that's an
awfully high standard. It still earns an Excellent to my eyes. And it
delivers a little differently. There's something very solid, determined,
knows where its going, in the best sense of all, quality to this episode
that gets me. The climax of Angel confronting Connor works so well for me
most of all because Boreanaz brings a toughness to his characterization
about as strongly as he gets - especially effective in the context of his
physically weakened state.

One other note about this episode is that it best captures for me the sense
of Connor as every teen acting out. I really like the way it works here.
Alas, I fear that it also largely uses that up. I don't need to see a
season of it to know what it is.


> Season Four, Episode 2: "Ground State"
> Writer: Mere Smith
> Director: Michael Grossman
>
> The final entrant in the series' big run of Good-to-Excellent
> episodes, and few will accuse it of being on the same level as the
> others. Electro-Gwen has never really worked for me as a character,
> especially given how erratically she drops in and out of the show.

As Mason Barge points out, there's a kind of Justice League of America
quality to introducing a character like that. I didn't know that was what
did in the character, but I certainly understand it. Also, the nature of
Gwen's powers is too high-tech for the sword and guts ways of Angel. If
they needed a new character of this sort, perhaps they should have gone the
witch/demon route with more mystical powers.

So Gwen was always going to be a hard fit. But recognizing that limitation,
I loved her character - and especially this episode. A season highlight.
(Most of the season highlights come early this year for me.) She is so cool
and sexy, and I think it's interesting for her to be unable to touch people
without killing them. I imagine that would **** up anybody's mind.


> As
> another example of the ever-popular heist show, GS entertains even
> when it doesn't wow.

The heist is fun, mostly pushing the right buttons. It's also fast paced.
Not belabored. The wow factor isn't supposed to be the heist though, but
rather the confrontation with Gwen leading to Gunn's temporary death and
later to Angel's heartbeat. I don't think the latter was quite as big a wow
as hoped for, but I did like it - and also thought the two were pretty hot
together. (Making this one of the sexier AtS episodes when you factor in
Lilah/Wesley as well.) I wouldn't have minded seeing more done with that
pairing. I suppose the writers decided it wouldn't fit well with the Cordy
story. More so than the extraneous superhero factor, this is where I think
Gwen's character ultimately falters. They simply failed to follow-through
on the personal connection with Angel now and Gunn later.

On the other hand I suspect the idea had been that Angel and Gwen were made
for each other because he's the only guy she can touch and she can make him
feel alive (heartbeat). It wouldn't be impossible to make something out of
that, but boy is the concept concocted. And nowhere near the natural
romance of a slayer/vampire connection. So maybe it's better they didn't go
there.


> Also as with so many other Buffyverse entries,
> what helps elevate it above a simple lightweight episode is the way it
> makes time for its characters. Here I'm thinking of the impromptu art
> competition that sets up Fred cracking under pressure later,

I suppose this is foundational for bringing the lost team members back into
the fold. First Lorne, but mainly Wesley. The way they lean on Fred, and
how much she dislikes the responsibility illustrates pretty well how much
they need Wesley.


> and
> definitely of the "strangely intimate" (Chris's term) discussion
> between Angel and Lilah. Also, of the several Wesley/Lilah sex scenes
> in ATS, the one in this episode is the hottest.
> Rating: Good

I'd rate it a pretty high Good - a tad short of Excellent for lack of
consequence. I doubt I'd care much about AtS if this kind of episode was
the norm, but I don't think I'd be able to tolerate AtS if it weren't
sprinkled with this kind of fun. Gwen will serve that function again later.
Not quite as well, but more desperately needed.


> Season Four, Episode 3: "The House Always Wins"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: Marita Grabiak
>
> We went back and forth a little bit about the driving force of every
> individual having a single "destiny" that can be taken away. It's a
> premise that still makes me a little bit angry and consider throwing
> around words like "offensive" that don't really belong in a discussion
> about a fantasy TV show. Because of that, I'm not inclined to come up
> with ways to make the premise fit neatly into a Buffyverse that it
> doesn't seem to belong to at first blush.

I'll settle for calling the premise stupid. Poorly thought out. It's not
anger inspiring. Especially since it's slightly redeemed in that the world
around Angel is positively obsessed with his destiny, while Angel struggles
with believing in it - or believing that hell has already been irredeemingly
established as his destiny. Remember that Angel will ultimately sign away
his destiny in S5 - in an act that he probably doesn't believe in, but all
those watching him put pen to paper most certainly do. This episode is a
light year short of that poetry, but at least it has him resist some of the
inevitability of things by fighting back even after his destiny has been
taken away. Call it foreshadowing.

That's probably more than the premise is worth, so I'll desist with any
further.


> I do think this is the kind
> of thing that I'd cheerfully ignore if THAW were an engaging episode.
> Instead, it remains one of the tedious few that're almost completely
> devoid of anything that is in any way interesting to me. I suppose it
> helps if one likes shticky musical performances, but even that only
> covers a few minutes,

I don't. This is where I would get angry. It's not tedium. It's abuse.


> and I remain oblivious about what's allegedly so
> amusing about Fred as a Lornette.

She's painfully skinny for a Vegas showgirl. And, well, it's out of
character for Fred.

It just doesn't work very well. I guess because they don't try to do
anything funny with it other than dress her up. <shrug> I'm actually always
surprised at how inconsequential and under-emphasized the showgirl bit is.
It seems to me that if they're going to go that kind of direction in a
Vegas-centric episode, that they should try to push it further over the top.
That's true of the whole episode I think. Or maybe they were too concerned
with getting the Vegas trappings right that they missed the atmosphere and
the fun. Double or Nothing last season got more out of the idea with far,
far less.


> After this episode, I first
> articulated my running idea that no episode featuring Angel being
> possessed or ensorcelled in a way that changes his personality can
> ever be particularly good. (No, smartasses, the original gypsy curse
> that created the character as we know him to begin with doesn't
> count.) I don't hold that as an absolute rule for any other
> character.
> Rating: Bad

I don't hate the episode enough to call it Bad. But it surely is poorly
conceived and executed. So I'll rate it Weak.


> Season Four, Episode 4: "Slouching Toward Bethlehem"
> Writer: Jeffrey Bell
> Director: Skip Schoolnik
>
> "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" (hereafter "Slouching," since "Spin The
> Bottle" seems to "own" the STB acronym) starts off as a story about
> Amnesiac Cordy, full of continuity porn and reminiscing about what she
> means to everyone (as if we haven't heard that five hundred times).
> It's weird and kinda pointless, but at least I'm entertained. Then
> Connor shows up to complicate things, and W&H shows its interest, and
> Wesley tries to play Lilah again, and the whole thing ends up feeling
> like the first step on the road to something bigger. Neat trick,
> that. I admire the cleverness of the construct that more or less
> guarantees that by simple virtue of showing up later, Connor will seem
> more trustworthy to Cordelia than Angel does.

I think it's a little more complicated than that, but all that really means
is that it's more concocted.

> I'm curious how much
> people's feelings about this episode mirror their feelings about the
> year as a whole. For me, "Slouching" (similar to S4) feels unwieldy
> in places, but damned if it doesn't end up working pretty nicely.
> Rating: Good

I have a fundamental problem with considering the slow release of
information to Cordy about everything that they are as deceitful. It would
have been no less misleading for Angel to announce that he's a vampire right
off and put on his game face, for example. There's a lifetime of foundation
to who Cordelia had become, and it doesn't come clear in an instant no
matter what order it's imparted in. I can understand somebody reacting
poorly to that - as Cordelia does - but I get really annoyed at the implicit
suggest (seemingly bought into by the characters) that they screwed up and
lied to her.

This is more than unwieldy for me. It feels forced. The start of slamming
situations into place by gum, and too clever by half.

Much of the episode plays pretty well though - notably Lilah/Wesley as you
point out. That gets it up to a middling Decent for me.

So, how much into Wesley do you suppose Lilah is? These last couple of
episodes are where it really feels like she's falling for him. Even if she
can't help still being Lilah.


> Additional comments on S4D1: I continue to maintain that the way
> Fred's recklessness in her attack on Connor is entirely in character.
> Lulling him into a sense of security before attacking him with the
> same weapon he used on Angel is very much her style. Especially in
> light of "Supersymmetry." I made that argument last time.

No argument from me. She may generally be timid, but she's not squeamish,
nor resistant to brutal solutions. And her timidity is offset by periodic
spasms of impulsive action. I think they showed all of this back in Pylea.
One moment I like back then isn't so much action, but does kinda show the
way she is.

Angel: Did I snore?
Fred: Hmm... I don't remember any snoring.
Angel: Good.
Fred: I remember caterwauling...
Fred lets out a short shriek, startling Angel.
Angel: Sorry.
Fred: I don't mind. - Sometimes it just burbles up inside you and you have
to - bellow a little. Do it all the time.


> Okay, I know ME isn't big with such things, but I spent a little time
> fruitlessly trying to work out the chronology involved in this year.
> Basically, the issue is that "Deep Down" is explicitly established to
> take place about three months after "Tomorrow." So, roughly the same
> time as "Lessons." Now, S7 of BTVS may not last all the way until May
> (the apocalypse comes early this year...), but it clearly takes place
> over a number of months. I can't imagine it not being spring semester
> by the time of "Lies My Parents Tell Me." In the meantime, ATS has a
> lot of "one episode leading right into the next one" stuff; almost
> every show of S4 begins either at the moment the previous one ended or
> the next day. Most of the story takes place over a few weeks. Yet
> the same amount of time theoretically has to have elapsed when the
> shows intersect again at LMPTM/"Orpheus."

I seem to remember that one of the BtVS commentaries speaks a little of how
they thought of mentioning the covering of the sun in L.A. as background
news, but realized that they'd lost control of time continuity (and air
dates). Personally I think they slipped into an alternate dimension until
they reached out to Faith and briefly reconnected. Possibly dating back to
the elevator ride in Reprise. By this theory, Connor's miracle rebirth is
really W&H erasing the alternate reality, leaving Connor with his actual
family.

Or maybe not. (No more improbable than the S4 story we see though.)


OBS

Mason Barge wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2fced64b-7c5d-45b3-9e3c-1ee9f72eff83@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: If these threads ain't dead, I'm gonna kill them.
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > Season Four, Episode 2: "Ground State"
> > Writer: Mere Smith
> > Director: Michael Grossman
> >
> > The final entrant in the series' big run of Good-to-Excellent
> > episodes, and few will accuse it of being on the same level as the
> > others. Electro-Gwen has never really worked for me as a character,
> > especially given how erratically she drops in and out of the show.
>
> My sense is that she was provisional as a long-term guest character, but was
> dropped because Angel was starting to look like a superhero team ala
> "Justice League of America". They certainly invested a few bucks in the set
> for her apartment and her back-story.

She has some good lines in "Ground State," but so does everyone who's
on these shows. You're probably right that there were plans of some
kind - "Long Day's Journey" gives her, as you say, her own set, and
certainly makes it seem like she'll be hanging out with the team
during this arc. There may also have been plans to play up the
attraction to her fellow monster, given the screen time that got.
Then in the next episode she's written out with one line. It still
throws me. And I won't even try to get into what the hell they were
attempting with "Players," although those on the NG who like that one
better than I do may be able to come up with something.

To me, a show like ATS demands rich characters, and the writers seem
to find that easier to do with the broody tortured ones than the more
outwardly comedic ones. Besides being maybe a little too explicitly
like a superhero comic character, she's too much like a cartoon
archetype of a femme fatale. She's also profoundly amoral, which
instead of making her more interesting, tends to be brushed over and
treated as cute - ooh, she's a hot chick with emotional pain, so
everything's cool. I don't particularly dislike the character or
anything (except in "Players," where she's quite unpleasant), and her
presence in LDJ helped lighten the mood at a time when the show needed
it, but I simply don't like her, at least in her role as an erratic
guest star.

-AOQ

On Mar 11, 4:04 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:2fced64b-7c5d-45b3-9e3c-1ee9f72eff83@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> The heist is fun, mostly pushing the right buttons. It's also fast paced.
> Not belabored. The wow factor isn't supposed to be the heist though, but
> rather the confrontation with Gwen leading to Gunn's temporary death and
> later to Angel's heartbeat. I don't think the latter was quite as big a wow
> as hoped for, but I did like it - and also thought the two were pretty hot
> together. (Making this one of the sexier AtS episodes when you factor in
> Lilah/Wesley as well.) I wouldn't have minded seeing more done with that
> pairing. I suppose the writers decided it wouldn't fit well with the Cordy
> story. More so than the extraneous superhero factor, this is where I think
> Gwen's character ultimately falters. They simply failed to follow-through
> on the personal connection with Angel now and Gunn later.
>
> On the other hand I suspect the idea had been that Angel and Gwen were made
> for each other because he's the only guy she can touch and she can make him
> feel alive (heartbeat). It wouldn't be impossible to make something out of
> that, but boy is the concept concocted. And nowhere near the natural
> romance of a slayer/vampire connection. So maybe it's better they didn't go
> there.

I responded to Mason summarizing why I don't particularly like Gwen,
but I don't know if I emphasized how it might've made more sense had
they actually, you know, done anything with her. The end of the
episode with her and Angel working as a team and arguing about traps
and whether to kill _My So-Called Life_ Guy are way more entertaining
than one would expect. There's an undeniable chemistry there that
might have been interesting. Maybe I'm drawn simply to the idea of
Angel getting into in a flirtation or relationship that, unlike his
current thing, isn't *so goddamn melodramatic all the time*. Maybe
the reason this particular plot thread died a quiet death is that in
the long run one can't see Angel really getting serious about her, and
I can't see him involved in any kind of supernatural soap opera
elements that he's not serious about.

[THAW]
> I don't hate the episode enough to call it Bad. But it surely is poorly
> conceived and executed. So I'll rate it Weak.

[Shrug.] What can I say? Mind-numbing boredom matched with an
allegedly light/comedic episode is really a deadly combination for
me. There are few things worse than bad comedic stylings.

> I have a fundamental problem with considering the slow release of
> information to Cordy about everything that they are as deceitful. It would
> have been no less misleading for Angel to announce that he's a vampire right
> off and put on his game face, for example. There's a lifetime of foundation
> to who Cordelia had become, and it doesn't come clear in an instant no
> matter what order it's imparted in. I can understand somebody reacting
> poorly to that - as Cordelia does - but I get really annoyed at the implicit
> suggest (seemingly bought into by the characters) that they screwed up and
> lied to her.
>
> This is more than unwieldy for me. It feels forced. The start of slamming
> situations into place by gum, and too clever by half.

That's not how I read the sequence. The whole point of it is that
Angel and his company are at a disadvantage by the way things happen.
They can't tell Cordelia the whole truth right away - they're pretty
much required to hide something - but someone like Cordy will then
interpret this as lying to her. Especially since, as his been
previously established, they really suck at hiding things and tend to
come off as, well, untrustworthy to an observer. I don't tend to use
"too clever" as a criticism because I generally like things that I
think are clever. This is a reasonable and unforced way, in my
opinion, for Connor and Cordelia to be spending time together while
Angel suffers the indignity of losing someone to his own son (and
that's a really strong emotional moment), without him really having
done anything wrong. I don't want to think it's because of some evil
master plan either, just the way the chips fall to get in the way of
things turning out right.

> So, how much into Wesley do you suppose Lilah is? These last couple of
> episodes are where it really feels like she's falling for him. Even if she
> can't help still being Lilah.

Hard to say. I was looking at it from the other side while watching.
Wesley's behavior in DD suggests that he's his own man, but continuing
to their bet here, he's clearly feeling something for her. The
dynamic between them is supposed to defy easy description, but in the
end, the tragedy of their relationship for both of them was neither
was able to "save" the other from being themself. There's a concious
symmetry to the Wesley/Lilah interactions (to go along with Wes being
a reflection of Angel, as usual), yet I don't think it ever feels like
something that was shoehorned in to Lilah's character.

> I seem to remember that one of the BtVS commentaries speaks a little of how
> they thought of mentioning the covering of the sun in L.A. as background
> news, but realized that they'd lost control of time continuity (and air
> dates).

I think it was mentioned here in the NG rather than on commentary. It
was during "Bring On The Night." Joyce would've followed the line
"the sun always goes down, the sun always comes up," with an after-
thought along the lines of "except in L.A., lately."

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:02933298-4e93-4efc-86a0-14fee8708547@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 11, 4:04 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:2fced64b-7c5d-45b3-9e3c-1ee9f72eff83@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

>> I have a fundamental problem with considering the slow release of
>> information to Cordy about everything that they are as deceitful. It
>> would
>> have been no less misleading for Angel to announce that he's a vampire
>> right
>> off and put on his game face, for example. There's a lifetime of
>> foundation
>> to who Cordelia had become, and it doesn't come clear in an instant no
>> matter what order it's imparted in. I can understand somebody reacting
>> poorly to that - as Cordelia does - but I get really annoyed at the
>> implicit
>> suggest (seemingly bought into by the characters) that they screwed up
>> and
>> lied to her.
>>
>> This is more than unwieldy for me. It feels forced. The start of
>> slamming
>> situations into place by gum, and too clever by half.
>
> That's not how I read the sequence. The whole point of it is that
> Angel and his company are at a disadvantage by the way things happen.
> They can't tell Cordelia the whole truth right away - they're pretty
> much required to hide something - but someone like Cordy will then
> interpret this as lying to her. Especially since, as his been
> previously established, they really suck at hiding things and tend to
> come off as, well, untrustworthy to an observer. I don't tend to use
> "too clever" as a criticism because I generally like things that I
> think are clever. This is a reasonable and unforced way, in my
> opinion, for Connor and Cordelia to be spending time together while
> Angel suffers the indignity of losing someone to his own son (and
> that's a really strong emotional moment), without him really having
> done anything wrong. I don't want to think it's because of some evil
> master plan either, just the way the chips fall to get in the way of
> things turning out right.

Maybe. It doesn't feel that way to me. And in Supersymmetry it continues
to be described as lying to protect Cordy, with Angel seeming to accept that
framing. The show hangs a lot off of this premise, which I think is shaky.
Even Cordelia should be able to figure out eventually that the truth is
complicated and takes a lot of explaining - that it doesn't have to just be
about protecting her delicate sensibilities. That's what I mean by it being
too clever by half. They're staking too much on a clever situation while
side stepping the greater weight of the natural circumstance. The missing
line that the episode would never be able to withstand is nothing more than,
"Gee, Cordy, there's so much to explain, I don't know where to start." But
they never even try to go there, which I can only explain by their evident
acceptance of the notion they were actively deceiving her.


>> So, how much into Wesley do you suppose Lilah is? These last couple of
>> episodes are where it really feels like she's falling for him. Even if
>> she
>> can't help still being Lilah.
>
> Hard to say. I was looking at it from the other side while watching.
> Wesley's behavior in DD suggests that he's his own man, but continuing
> to their bet here, he's clearly feeling something for her. The
> dynamic between them is supposed to defy easy description, but in the
> end, the tragedy of their relationship for both of them was neither
> was able to "save" the other from being themself. There's a concious
> symmetry to the Wesley/Lilah interactions (to go along with Wes being
> a reflection of Angel, as usual), yet I don't think it ever feels like
> something that was shoehorned in to Lilah's character.

That's interesting. I hadn't actually gotten to the point of thinking of
them as trying to save each other. (Boy, you're getting really analytical
in your recent reviews. I think you've been seduced to the dark side.) At
least not Lilah saving Wesley. But, of course, from Lilah's point of view
she kind of was. I can see how it would start for her as taking advantage
of opportunity to maybe recruit him to W&H and certainly to use him. And
then sort of drift into actually trying to rescue him. It wouldn't look all
that different, since her idea of saving him would be a form of using him.
Thinking of it that way I'm actually more inclined now to view it as a kind
of falling in love - as much as Lilah can anyway. And certainly in the only
way she can. She does stay in character.

OBS

On Mar 13, 11:02 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:02933298-4e93-4efc-86a0-14fee8708547@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 11, 4:04 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:2fced64b-7c5d-45b3-9e3c-1ee9f72eff83@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> >> I have a fundamental problem with considering the slow release of
> >> information to Cordy about everything that they are as deceitful. It
> >> would
> >> have been no less misleading for Angel to announce that he's a vampire
> >> right
> >> off and put on his game face, for example. There's a lifetime of
> >> foundation
> >> to who Cordelia had become, and it doesn't come clear in an instant no
> >> matter what order it's imparted in. I can understand somebody reacting
> >> poorly to that - as Cordelia does - but I get really annoyed at the
> >> implicit
> >> suggest (seemingly bought into by the characters) that they screwed up
> >> and
> >> lied to her.
>
> >> This is more than unwieldy for me. It feels forced. The start of
> >> slamming
> >> situations into place by gum, and too clever by half.
>
> > That's not how I read the sequence. The whole point of it is that
> > Angel and his company are at a disadvantage by the way things happen.
> > They can't tell Cordelia the whole truth right away - they're pretty
> > much required to hide something - but someone like Cordy will then
> > interpret this as lying to her. Especially since, as his been
> > previously established, they really suck at hiding things and tend to
> > come off as, well, untrustworthy to an observer. I don't tend to use
> > "too clever" as a criticism because I generally like things that I
> > think are clever. This is a reasonable and unforced way, in my
> > opinion, for Connor and Cordelia to be spending time together while
> > Angel suffers the indignity of losing someone to his own son (and
> > that's a really strong emotional moment), without him really having
> > done anything wrong. I don't want to think it's because of some evil
> > master plan either, just the way the chips fall to get in the way of
> > things turning out right.
>
> Maybe. It doesn't feel that way to me. And in Supersymmetry it continues
> to be described as lying to protect Cordy, with Angel seeming to accept that
> framing.

But when characters' take on something *you* like doesn't fit the
situation, it's an in-character misreading. I see how it is.

> The show hangs a lot off of this premise, which I think is shaky.
> Even Cordelia should be able to figure out eventually that the truth is
> complicated and takes a lot of explaining - that it doesn't have to just be
> about protecting her delicate sensibilities. That's what I mean by it being
> too clever by half. They're staking too much on a clever situation while
> side stepping the greater weight of the natural circumstance. The missing
> line that the episode would never be able to withstand is nothing more than,
> "Gee, Cordy, there's so much to explain, I don't know where to start." But
> they never even try to go there, which I can only explain by their evident
> acceptance of the notion they were actively deceiving her.

They've decided, right or wrong, that any mention of the supernatural,
including even the suggestion that there's something they're holding
back, would be too much for her to believe right away. "There's a lot
to explain, but I'm going to stop here for now" doesn't sound like a
winning strategy either. Let me repeat that it works for me because
it makes sense that Cordelia would get angry at any attempt to keep
things from her, and would interpret any secret-keeping as deception.

> >> So, how much into Wesley do you suppose Lilah is? These last couple of
> >> episodes are where it really feels like she's falling for him. Even if
> >> she
> >> can't help still being Lilah.
>
> > Hard to say. I was looking at it from the other side while watching.
> > Wesley's behavior in DD suggests that he's his own man, but continuing
> > to their bet here, he's clearly feeling something for her. The
> > dynamic between them is supposed to defy easy description, but in the
> > end, the tragedy of their relationship for both of them was neither
> > was able to "save" the other from being themself. There's a concious
> > symmetry to the Wesley/Lilah interactions (to go along with Wes being
> > a reflection of Angel, as usual), yet I don't think it ever feels like
> > something that was shoehorned in to Lilah's character.
>
> That's interesting. I hadn't actually gotten to the point of thinking of
> them as trying to save each other. (Boy, you're getting really analytical
> in your recent reviews. I think you've been seduced to the dark side.) At
> least not Lilah saving Wesley. But, of course, from Lilah's point of view
> she kind of was. I can see how it would start for her as taking advantage
> of opportunity to maybe recruit him to W&H and certainly to use him. And
> then sort of drift into actually trying to rescue him. It wouldn't look all
> that different, since her idea of saving him would be a form of using him.
> Thinking of it that way I'm actually more inclined now to view it as a kind
> of falling in love - as much as Lilah can anyway. And certainly in the only
> way she can. She does stay in character.

I was looking for a bit of dialogue to hammer home the point, but
Lilah's almost never explicit about what she's thinking. My feeling,
at least, is that it felt clear even in late S3 (before he's made any
effort to "save" her) that she thinks he can be more than he is (by
her definition), she doesn't like the thought of him "going to
waste." This is probably the Buffyverse relationship built most
strongly on the foundation of two people trying to change each other
(although feel free to dust off the Wesley/Spike parallels). That's
usually a recipe for the total failure of a romance, but in this case,
the moments of affection feel very genuine. The inherent instability
of the whole thing has to be a turn-on for Lilah, too, though I'm not
as sure about Wes.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:2fced64b-7c5d-45b3-9e3c-1ee9f72eff83@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: If these threads ain't dead, I'm gonna kill them.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Four, Episode 1: "Deep Down"
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Terrence O'Hara
>
> Rating: Good

I agree with most of what you like about, although obviously at a much lower
level, because I'd only rate it Decent, and so clearly so that I never had
to consider why it isn't Good. It is at it's best when either Wes or Lilah,
or both, are on screen, but there just isn't enough of them to lift it
higher for me. It's my 58th favourite AtS episode, 4th best in season 4
(last time was 66th and 3rd)


> Season Four, Episode 2: "Ground State"
> Writer: Mere Smith
> Director: Michael Grossman
>
> Rating: Good

I haven't rewatched this, so it's slight movement in my ratings to 72nd best
AtS episode, 7th best in season 4 (from 76th and 7th) only reflects
movements of episodes around it

> Season Four, Episode 3: "The House Always Wins"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: Marita Grabiak
>
> Rating: Bad

True, the multi-coloured "destinies" are beyond silly, which makes the main
story a waste of time. But in such circumstances you have to make do with
whatever else the episode provides (which thus makes it a model for getting
something out of season 4). And it has Lorne, Live in Vegas. And Fred... as
a Lornette. Which is enough to make it a lowish Decent for me. It's my 71st
favourite AtS episode, 6th best in season 4 (last time was 72nd and 5th).

> Season Four, Episode 4: "Slouching Toward Bethlehem"
> Writer: Jeffrey Bell
> Director: Skip Schoolnik

I haven't rewatched this, so its movement down to 100th best AtS episode,
18th best in season 4 (from 97th and 15th last year) merely reflects
movement by episodes around it.

--
Apteryx

In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> ANGEL
> Season Four, Episode 1: "Deep Down"
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Terrence O'Hara

Certainly the best of the AtS season openers. Though really, Judgement is
the only one I have serious problems with. Random thought: Judgement, the
worst AtS season premiere, is the one least burdened with exposition to
reintroduce the characters and situation. Deep Down, on the other hand,
is one of the most exposition-heavy premiere (though next year's will
probably equal it), yet it's also the best.

> I had to watch this one one extra time to justify the fact that it's
> always been a Good rather than an Excellent to me. I mean, what's
> wrong with it? Doesn't it have a nicely shot opening that sets the
> stage for the whole year? Doesn't it convey a good mood of
> perseverance in the face of listless depression, and keep surprising
> the viewer with where characters have ended up? Isn't it a great
> Wesley episode, making us realize that, unexpectedly, his eyes are
> more focused on what has to be done then ever? (It also gives us the
> amazing intensity of the Wes/Justine sequences and some killer lines
> like his response to the accusation that he doesn't care.) Isn't it
> uplifting to see Angel on dry land and speechifying in an interesting
> way again? Doesn't DD have no major flaws (at least in this
> reviewer's opinion)? But when I watch it, it's clearly Good. I
> suppose Excellence requires a little something extra, more than merely
> being a very solid episode that lacks many problems.

Not even a notorious ME-coddler like me would argue that simple lack of
major flaws is enough to merit rating an episode Excellent. (Sure, I
might have done it once or twice, but I'd never claim that it's the right
thing to do.) For me, a lot of the scenes in Deep Down are striking
enough to make it a candidate for Excellent. BTW, almost all of these
scenes involve Wesley. Until the last five minutes or so, it's really
Wesley's episode, not Angel's.

> Rating: Good

You know, I feel like calling it an Excellent, despite the lack of one
truly amazing moment. I think a consistently solid episode with many
small moments of excellence can achieve the same rating as a Major
Episode with a Big Moment.

> Season Four, Episode 2: "Ground State"
> Writer: Mere Smith
> Director: Michael Grossman
..
> The final entrant in the series' big run of Good-to-Excellent
> episodes, and few will accuse it of being on the same level as the
> others. Electro-Gwen has never really worked for me as a character,
> especially given how erratically she drops in and out of the show.

Agreed that the main problem with Gwen is that the show never made good
use of her after this episode. I won't count that against Ground State,
but it does count against S4. The scene when Gwen meets her buyer at the
restaurant remains a favorite of mine, for obvious reasons; but I really
remember the character for her no-touching dilemma and for the moments
when her cool facade slips a little. "I'm not slow, I know it's a -- shut
up!"

The Dinza scene is creepy when it's happening, but completely forgettable.
No one ever seems to mention it, and whenever I watch GS I think "Oh,
yeah, that's in this episode" when Wesley fisrt mentions her.

> As
> another example of the ever-popular heist show, GS entertains even
> when it doesn't wow.

Way too popular, in my opinion. This is a thought that nags at me even
when I'm thoroughly enjoying an excellent heist. Well, they beat trials
suddenly overturned by a last-minute surprise witness, I guess. And car
chases, they beat those too.

> Rating: Good

Like AOQ said and I snipped, the best parts of GS are mainly the character
moments to one side of this week's plot: Fred's breakdown, Wesley and
Angel's happy reconciliation, Angel and Lilah's joyful reunion, and so on.
And stealing the Axis rovides a competent enough excuse for those moments
to happen. Last time I hesitated between Decent and Good, but now I'll
unhesitatingly say Good too.

> Season Four, Episode 3: "The House Always Wins"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: Marita Grabiak
..
> We went back and forth a little bit about the driving force of every
> individual having a single "destiny" that can be taken away. It's a
> premise that still makes me a little bit angry and consider throwing

While I'm not quite angry about it, it *is* a very stupid premise. It's
also contrary to the spirit of AtS, in my opinion. Sure, the idea of
destiny is important to the series, what with the Shanshu and being a key
player in the coming apocalypse and all. But it's not THAW's kind of
destiny. Characters on AtS can and do get into situations where all their
possible options are bad, but they still have free will. (Well, unless
they're possessed. That's another issue.) Leaving aside questions of
quality and just looking at it thematically, does the destiny market in
THAW really belong in the same series as Not Fade Away?

> Instead, it remains one of the tedious few that're almost completely
> devoid of anything that is in any way interesting to me. I suppose it
> helps if one likes shticky musical performances,

Or if Lorne's stage routine is so alien to your musical tastes that you
can enjoy it as a sort of travelogue from another world. That might just
be me, though.

> but even that only
> covers a few minutes, and I remain oblivious about what's allegedly so
> amusing about Fred as a Lornette.

I'm just tickled by Amy Acker's rendition of a mediocre actress struggling
with her cover story. Nothing for a best-of disc or anything, but I think
it's cute. It's also interesting to see Fred in that showy, Vegas-style
sexy costume, because it points up how extremely attractive she is in her
everyday casual outfits and hairstyles.

Maybe ME got a taste for casinos in Double Or Nothing? THAW does have
some decent visual spectacles in Vegas, but DON has stronger character
moments. Given the relative importance of spectacle and characterization
in the Buffyverse, I think ME should have quit while they were ahead on
the whole casino thing.

> Rating: Bad

Eh. It won a few laughs from me, and while the basic concept sucks and
destinyless Angel was annoying and uninteresting, Lorne's enslavement was
an okay plot for a filler episode. I thought the villain of the week gave
a good performance, too. I'll put it on the high border of Weak. On days
when I'm feeling generous, I might even go to a low Decent, but that's not
today. (Though I've already been writing this in bits and pieces for a
couple of days; who knows how I'll feel by the time I post it.) [Nope,
still Weak.]

> Season Four, Episode 4: "Slouching Toward Bethlehem"
> Writer: Jeffrey Bell
> Director: Skip Schoolnik

There's been some discussion about Angel and sidekicks lying to Cordelia,
whether or not they could have handled the situation any differently. I
would agree that there was no way they could reveal everything at once,
and it's understandable that they would want to start with the less scary
parts. But their fatal error was in not immediately telling Cordy
something substantial, *anything* substantial. Instead Angel's chosen
approach (after launching a coverup) is to show Cordy her old stuff,
hoping it will jog her memory. He openly tells Fred the reason: he wants
Cordy to remember Angel the man, before they have to explain Angel the
vampire, as well as vampires in general. And why does he do this?
Because he's hoping that she'll remember she was in love with him, of
course. So in a way, it all boils down to Angel putting his romantic
hopes ahead of Cordelia's best interests.

I do like the abruptness with which Cordy learns Angel is a vampire.
They're in the midst of a long melancholy conversation, one where Angel is
actually answering her questions honestly, when Cordy suddenly plops the
rosaries into Angel's lap without the least bit of warning. It's fun
because although we already know what Angel is, the revelation still
happens fast enough to surprise the viewer almost as much as it surprises
Cordy.

> "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" (hereafter "Slouching," since "Spin The
> Bottle" seems to "own" the STB acronym) starts off as a story about
> Amnesiac Cordy, full of continuity porn and reminiscing about what she

I'm doubly happy whenever later seasons of AtS, after the big crossover
eps of S1 and S2, still reference evetns from BtVS. They could just as
easily have forgotten the earlier series altogether in their effort to
establish AtS as its own show.

> means to everyone (as if we haven't heard that five hundred times).
> It's weird and kinda pointless, but at least I'm entertained. Then
> Connor shows up to complicate things,

Mel made a good point in the S3D6 thread. The "soul colonic" Cordy gave
Connor set up the bond between the two of them in S4. Connor likes Cordy
in part because she had no hand in punishing him in DD, and they're both
alienated from Angel. But it's also because Connor remembers that moment
when he was (briefly) purged of his gloomier side. "You were nice to me
once" is all he says, so it's not definite, but I believe he was referring
to that incident.

> I'm curious how much
> people's feelings about this episode mirror their feelings about the
> year as a whole. For me, "Slouching" (similar to S4) feels unwieldy
> in places, but damned if it doesn't end up working pretty nicely.

Unwieldy it is, but I actually like S4 a lot -- more than most people
here, if I'm not mistaken. However, Slouching isn't that significant to
me. I remember it mainly for Lilah and Wesley's bet. It's not a bad
episode by any means, but it's mostly important to me as necessary
groundwork for the Beast/Jasmine arc.

> Rating: Good

Last time I only gave it a high Decent. After viewing it again I'll
change that to a low Good.

> Additional comments on S4D1: I continue to maintain that the way
> Fred's recklessness in her attack on Connor is entirely in character.
> Lulling him into a sense of security before attacking him with the
> same weapon he used on Angel is very much her style. Especially in
> light of "Supersymmetry."

I second that. Whether or not it's the *best* thing she could have done
is another question, of course; but it was indeed in character. I guess a
vindictive streak is just one more thing Fred has in common with Willow;
too bad they didn't get to bond over that in Orpheus.

> I immediately commented that the disappearance (so to speak) of Dennis
> from the series didn't bode well for Cordelia-based storylines. I
> hope someone thought to fill him in on the story sometime - he seemed
> really worried about her.

We can hope that Cordy was able to finagle one good deed out of the higher
powers before she returned to earth, and they helped Dennis move on.

> Okay, I know ME isn't big with such things, but I spent a little time
> fruitlessly trying to work out the chronology involved in this year.

Maybe the answer is simply that time has no meaning in LA.


--Chris
(who is not quite far behind enough to start skipping threads)



__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

On Mar 22, 10:58 am, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe ME got a taste for casinos in Double Or Nothing?

Back when I first reviewed THAW, people who'd been watching first-run
commented that this was the climax of years of jokes, both on and off
screen, about sending the group to Vegas for a vacation. After the
episode aired, some people expressed relief that now that was out of
their system and we wouldn't have to see anything like that again.

> I'll put it on the high border of Weak. On days
> when I'm feeling generous, I might even go to a low Decent, but that's not
> today. (Though I've already been writing this in bits and pieces for a
> couple of days; who knows how I'll feel by the time I post it.) [Nope,
> still Weak.]

Heh.

> There's been some discussion about Angel and sidekicks lying to Cordelia,
> whether or not they could have handled the situation any differently. I
> would agree that there was no way they could reveal everything at once,
> and it's understandable that they would want to start with the less scary
> parts. But their fatal error was in not immediately telling Cordy
> something substantial, *anything* substantial. Instead Angel's chosen
> approach (after launching a coverup) is to show Cordy her old stuff,
> hoping it will jog her memory. He openly tells Fred the reason: he wants
> Cordy to remember Angel the man, before they have to explain Angel the
> vampire, as well as vampires in general. And why does he do this?
> Because he's hoping that she'll remember she was in love with him, of
> course. So in a way, it all boils down to Angel putting his romantic
> hopes ahead of Cordelia's best interests.

Good catch; it's right there in the episode too, but we'd been talking
past it.

> I'm doubly happy whenever later seasons of AtS, after the big crossover
> eps of S1 and S2, still reference evetns from BtVS. They could just as
> easily have forgotten the earlier series altogether in their effort to
> establish AtS as its own show.

ATS can't exist without BTVS, despite how different their styles are,
because so many journeys started there. I'm generally a sucker for a
good crossover, for the same reasons so many other viewers are. Even
little stuff (like the Demons, Demons, Demons database showing up
during research scenes on BTVS) make the universe feel a little more
cohesive, and are fun things for us to spot. ATS walked the spinoff
line of remaining heavily influenced by its parent show while
establishing its own identity, and I think it did it pretty well.

Of course, alternatively, they could have ignored Buffy coming to back
to life and diverged into a parallel universe, _Knots Landing_
style...

> > I'm curious how much
> > people's feelings about this episode mirror their feelings about the
> > year as a whole. For me, "Slouching" (similar to S4) feels unwieldy
> > in places, but damned if it doesn't end up working pretty nicely.
>
> Unwieldy it is, but I actually like S4 a lot -- more than most people
> here, if I'm not mistaken. However, Slouching isn't that significant to
> me. I remember it mainly for Lilah and Wesley's bet. It's not a bad
> episode by any means, but it's mostly important to me as necessary
> groundwork for the Beast/Jasmine arc.

Well, that's one dissenter from my hypothesis. Ah, well. S4 tends to
inspire more extreme reactions elsewhere online (as opposed to our
notorious happy articulate world of Usenet, where most of the people
who discuss in depth at all have thoughtful things to say). It's the
best or the worst of the series. My brother, who was quite slow to
get into ATS (and is rare in being very bored throughout S2), thought
S4 was definitely the best the show ever got.

-AOQ

<chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:13uab4ak6cicmf0@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

>> Season Four, Episode 4: "Slouching Toward Bethlehem"
>> Writer: Jeffrey Bell
>> Director: Skip Schoolnik
>
> There's been some discussion about Angel and sidekicks lying to Cordelia,
> whether or not they could have handled the situation any differently. I
> would agree that there was no way they could reveal everything at once,
> and it's understandable that they would want to start with the less scary
> parts. But their fatal error was in not immediately telling Cordy
> something substantial, *anything* substantial. Instead Angel's chosen
> approach (after launching a coverup) is to show Cordy her old stuff,
> hoping it will jog her memory. He openly tells Fred the reason: he wants
> Cordy to remember Angel the man, before they have to explain Angel the
> vampire, as well as vampires in general. And why does he do this?
> Because he's hoping that she'll remember she was in love with him, of
> course. So in a way, it all boils down to Angel putting his romantic
> hopes ahead of Cordelia's best interests.

I'd suggest that motivation goes beyond the romantic hopes to also include
his sense of the bond built between them since S1. Cordy, above all, was
his connection to humanity.


> I do like the abruptness with which Cordy learns Angel is a vampire.
> They're in the midst of a long melancholy conversation, one where Angel is
> actually answering her questions honestly, when Cordy suddenly plops the
> rosaries into Angel's lap without the least bit of warning. It's fun
> because although we already know what Angel is, the revelation still
> happens fast enough to surprise the viewer almost as much as it surprises
> Cordy.

An example of why I think it has a lot more to do with an impossible
situation than active deceit. Sure, Angel might have come up with a better
way (if he was lucky), but it's not like there was a lot of time to work it
out or an obvious right way to do it.

In any case, I don't have an issue with the short term impression made upon
Cordelia. I still struggle to buy into how meekly Angel and company accept
the accusation of deceit and their guilt. I feel like the impulse to defend
themselves is absent when it shouldn't be - both because they wouldn't feel
they'd acted that badly, and because Cordelia is getting the wrong idea
burned in.

This is also being used as foundation to the whole notion of Cordelia being
more comfortable with Connor. But of course Angel is the one she was in
love with, and Connor is the kid kicked out of the house for trying to kill
Angel. That's another rather big reason for Angel and friends wanting to
resist Cordelia's attitude. Perhaps more importantly, it's also reason for
memory restored Cordelia to have a rather different attitude. She offers
the exuse (lame IMO) of having seen what Angelus had done while a higher
being to explain it, but shying away from Angel love doesn't translate into
living with Connor. (Didn't she see what Connor had done while she was up
there?) It doesn't ring true to Cordelia IMO. And even considering that
Jasmine may be running the show now, I struggle to see it ringing true to
Angel either. Everything's sliding along awfully easily for such a slender
thread.

Too much of this feels unnatural for my tastes. I realize that's the story
written, but it's one that strikes me as slammed into place.

OBS

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 01:39:53 -0400, "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:

><chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
>news:13uab4ak6cicmf0@corp.supernews.com...
>> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Season Four, Episode 4: "Slouching Toward Bethlehem"

You know, as I think about it, I don't recall anyone on the newsgroup ever
bringing up the foreshadowing (in retrospect) of this title (at the time of
the original airing, I just accepted that no writer in the later half of
the 20th and start of the 21st century has ever passed up an opportunity to
use a line from that Yeats poem as a title (I think every single line has
been used by some writer or other as a title)). It also pretty directly
addresses the 'when did Jasmine take over' question. I think, at the time,
that we just accepted that it must refer to the Beast, once Apocalypse
Nowish aired, but the imagery, in 20-20 hindsight is Anti-Christ imagery,
and that's Jasmine.

Of course, it may just be so obvious as to not need anyone bringing it up.



--
.... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)

"William George Ferguson" <wmgfrgsn@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:hi8iu3ducf8v27j4vpk26drl9368109v9i@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 01:39:53 -0400, "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry>
> wrote:
>
>><chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
>>news:13uab4ak6cicmf0@corp.supernews.com...
>>> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Season Four, Episode 4: "Slouching Toward Bethlehem"
>
> You know, as I think about it, I don't recall anyone on the newsgroup ever
> bringing up the foreshadowing (in retrospect) of this title (at the time
> of
> the original airing, I just accepted that no writer in the later half of
> the 20th and start of the 21st century has ever passed up an opportunity
> to
> use a line from that Yeats poem as a title (I think every single line has
> been used by some writer or other as a title)). It also pretty directly
> addresses the 'when did Jasmine take over' question. I think, at the
> time,
> that we just accepted that it must refer to the Beast, once Apocalypse
> Nowish aired, but the imagery, in 20-20 hindsight is Anti-Christ imagery,
> and that's Jasmine.
>
> Of course, it may just be so obvious as to not need anyone bringing it up.

"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"

Foretelling Jasmine's birth for sure. And probably marking the conception
as a point in time of importance. It would be elegant if Jasmine didn't
arrive until then, but that's not how it gets explained later.

Angel: Being inside a human makes it vulnerable, doesn't it? That's why it
had to stay hidden. Why it needed to create something stronger to pour
itself into.
Gunn: Wait. So the big nasty inside of Cordy is going to give birth... to
itself?
Skip: Circle of life. It's a beautiful thing.

Jasmine's already in Cordelia waiting for the birth of a more perfect
container. Besides, just being in Cordy and/or being conceived doesn't
necessarily mean she's in control. I'm afraid we're still stuck with the
question of when Jasmine takes charge. And I still lean towards the memory
restoration spell.

It's still a nice use of the line though.

OBS

In article <13uh41a42un5ma1@news.supernews.com>,
One Bit Shy <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:
[...]
>Too much of this feels unnatural for my tastes. I realize that's the story
>written, but it's one that strikes me as slammed into place.

Amen to that. It's just totally lame writing. I don't know if it was
prompted by CC's pregnancy, or her desire to leave the show, but stopping
her relationship with Angel that way is so incredibly lame (that, and the
setup that was leading to the relationship was about as stupid).
I still feel that Cordelia is the Angel's character storyline that's the
least believable. It would have been sooo much better if Elizabeth Rohm
had been available a bit more, and they did something with that.

A pity. Jasmine and the Beast are good characters. Cordy, as a master villain,
doesn't cut it.

The writers can try to gross you out as much as they want with the sex
with Connors, it's not enough.

I was grasping for a feeling, and I think I've finally got it. All those
scenes with Cordelia feel like a really bad sitcom.