Being something of a glutton for punishment, yesterday I made the perhaps
unwise decision to watch Trek VII again. Ignoring the numerous plot
wierdnesses (why have Riker tell Worf to prepare a *spread* of photon
torpedoes because they'll only have a *2 second window* when the BoP starts
cloaking, then show a single photorp taking several seconds to amble across,
many many seconds after the BoP starts cloaking, and after Riker gets to say
"Fire" (wouldn't they be timing it precisely from sensor readings anyway?))
and enjoying what one has to say are some lovely sfx, I started wondering
what I'd have done with the ending.

We know the initial test audiences hated the ending and Bermaga were sent
back with another 5 million bucks to reshoot it. We know they sat there
fiddling with their little pencils trying to come up with something better,
and what these towering giants of imagination came up with was doing what
they'd already done, but slightly differently and no better (instead of
shooting Kirk, they throw him off a bridge). We know they were desperate to
kill off Kirk to ensure that TOS was dead and their thing (TNG) would reign
supreme by definitely killing the one character without whom no more TOS
could certainly be made. So tossing aside their petty unimaginative desires
I thought, well what would I do? Here's my take. Obviously the best thing
would be to scrap the whole silly story, but if we're stuck with Soran, the
Nexus and Picard poncing around with those ugly children and Kim Braden,
what else could we do?

Well, keep the "Kirk and Picard go back and stop Soran" bit. We're only
reshooting the ending and reediting, after all. Don't kill Kirk, which was
unnecessary. Have our two captains triumph by teamwork, which is very Trek.
Now we're stuck with Kirk in the 24th century, which we don't want. Hmm.

Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird and have
Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their differences, and
drawn together by the death of David). This was in the original prologue for
The Undiscovered Country, after all, but cut out at the script stage. Fans
will like this. We can keep the kitchen scene (have Shatner dub in "Carol"
instead of "Antonia") and shoot a few extra lines discussing Carol. Keep
"going back to Starfleet" as the thing which broke them up, and which Kirk
regrets.

Now, back to the end of the movie. The Farragut has picked up the survivors
from the saucer crash, Picard and Kirk. Our crew and Kirk all stand around
for a short scene musing what to do with Kirk, and Kirk says "transport me
into the Nexus again". Picard is surprised that he'd want to live in a make
believe world (shades of The Menagerie here) but Kirk explains he's out of
his time in the 24C and anyway, he's not planning to stay in the Nexus-
after all, you can leave "any time, any place, anywhere". So the Enterprise
catches the Nexus up (easily done, we know it's slower than a starship) and
after a brief farewell scene, off goes Kirk.

We now see him back in (the real) Idaho. He goes into the bedroom and
Carol's there.

INT BEDROOM

CAROL
Eggs for breakfast? Are you softening me up for something?

KIRK (Slightly evasive)
No... no...

CAROL
What was that letter from starfleet about?

KIRK
Nothing, nothing that matters.

CAROL
They asked you back, didn't they?

KIRK
(sigh) Yes, they did. But gallivanting around the galaxy's for the young. I
don't need a starship any more. I have you.
(cue violins on soundtrack)

Back to some kind of wrap on the Farragut with Picard and Guinan. Also, edit
out that crap with Data and the cat. In fact, edit Data out of the movie
entirely where possible. Jesus, he's annoying.

We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his days in
his dotage happily with Carol. If he were later wanted for a guest spot in
another story, there's no problem with that. We've seen our hero "ride into
the sunset" after his last adventure, leaving all us fans with a warm glowy
feeling inside. The Nexus plot has significance as it gave Kirk the chance
to see the error of a decision, and go back and fix it.

And the internet didn't really exist much as a mass medium when Generations
came out, but if this ending had been filmed it would still be a great
source of discussion about which timeline is "real" (Kirk in his dotage, or
Kirk killed on the Enterprise B). (The answer is, the latter. Kirk's happy
old age was "always" the past of TNG, as evinced by "Relics". The Ent-B
death "never happened". It's a paradox! w00t)

Oh, you'd have to edit out a couple of references in Generations to Kirk's
death in "history", but that would be no problem.


Just a thought.


Ian



--
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
sci-fi comics with shagging in

Jaxtraw wrote:
> Being something of a glutton for punishment, yesterday I made the perhaps
> unwise decision to watch Trek VII again. Ignoring the numerous plot
> wierdnesses (why have Riker tell Worf to prepare a *spread* of photon
> torpedoes because they'll only have a *2 second window* when the BoP starts
> cloaking, then show a single photorp taking several seconds to amble across,
> many many seconds after the BoP starts cloaking, and after Riker gets to say
> "Fire" (wouldn't they be timing it precisely from sensor readings anyway?))
> and enjoying what one has to say are some lovely sfx, I started wondering
> what I'd have done with the ending.
>
> We know the initial test audiences hated the ending and Bermaga were sent
> back with another 5 million bucks to reshoot it. We know they sat there
> fiddling with their little pencils trying to come up with something better,
> and what these towering giants of imagination came up with was doing what
> they'd already done, but slightly differently and no better (instead of
> shooting Kirk, they throw him off a bridge). We know they were desperate to
> kill off Kirk to ensure that TOS was dead and their thing (TNG) would reign
> supreme by definitely killing the one character without whom no more TOS
> could certainly be made. So tossing aside their petty unimaginative desires
> I thought, well what would I do? Here's my take. Obviously the best thing
> would be to scrap the whole silly story, but if we're stuck with Soran, the
> Nexus and Picard poncing around with those ugly children and Kim Braden,
> what else could we do?
>
> Well, keep the "Kirk and Picard go back and stop Soran" bit. We're only
> reshooting the ending and reediting, after all. Don't kill Kirk, which was
> unnecessary. Have our two captains triumph by teamwork, which is very Trek.
> Now we're stuck with Kirk in the 24th century, which we don't want. Hmm.
>
> Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird and have
> Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their differences, and
> drawn together by the death of David). This was in the original prologue for
> The Undiscovered Country, after all, but cut out at the script stage. Fans
> will like this. We can keep the kitchen scene (have Shatner dub in "Carol"
> instead of "Antonia") and shoot a few extra lines discussing Carol. Keep
> "going back to Starfleet" as the thing which broke them up, and which Kirk
> regrets.
>
> Now, back to the end of the movie. The Farragut has picked up the survivors
> from the saucer crash, Picard and Kirk. Our crew and Kirk all stand around
> for a short scene musing what to do with Kirk, and Kirk says "transport me
> into the Nexus again". Picard is surprised that he'd want to live in a make
> believe world (shades of The Menagerie here) but Kirk explains he's out of
> his time in the 24C and anyway, he's not planning to stay in the Nexus-
> after all, you can leave "any time, any place, anywhere". So the Enterprise
> catches the Nexus up (easily done, we know it's slower than a starship) and
> after a brief farewell scene, off goes Kirk.
>
> We now see him back in (the real) Idaho. He goes into the bedroom and
> Carol's there.
>
> INT BEDROOM
>
> CAROL
> Eggs for breakfast? Are you softening me up for something?
>
> KIRK (Slightly evasive)
> No... no...
>
> CAROL
> What was that letter from starfleet about?
>
> KIRK
> Nothing, nothing that matters.
>
> CAROL
> They asked you back, didn't they?
>
> KIRK
> (sigh) Yes, they did. But gallivanting around the galaxy's for the young. I
> don't need a starship any more. I have you.
> (cue violins on soundtrack)
>
> Back to some kind of wrap on the Farragut with Picard and Guinan. Also, edit
> out that crap with Data and the cat. In fact, edit Data out of the movie
> entirely where possible. Jesus, he's annoying.
>
> We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his days in
> his dotage happily with Carol.

One problem with this is that in order for the Nexus to be this place of
total happiness and contentment, the Nexus would also have to bring
Kirk's son David back, not just Carol. Kirk was shattered over the
death of his son (cf. ST III: TWOK) and the Nexus would necessarily
restore his son to him.

Since Merritt Butrick (who had played David) had passed away five years
before the Generations movie was released, working around this would
present problems.

I wasn't that bothered by the death of Kirk in Generations. As far as I
was concerned, ST VI: The Undiscovered Country was supposed to be the
final swan song of the TOS crew. That was fine with me.


--
Steven L.
Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

"Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote...

> We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his days in
> his dotage happily with Carol. If he were later wanted for a guest spot in
> another story, there's no problem with that. We've seen our hero "ride into
> the sunset" after his last adventure, leaving all us fans with a warm glowy
> feeling inside. The Nexus plot has significance as it gave Kirk the chance
> to see the error of a decision, and go back and fix it.
>
> And the internet didn't really exist much as a mass medium when Generations
> came out, but if this ending had been filmed it would still be a great
> source of discussion about which timeline is "real" (Kirk in his dotage, or
> Kirk killed on the Enterprise B). (The answer is, the latter. Kirk's happy
> old age was "always" the past of TNG, as evinced by "Relics". The Ent-B
> death "never happened". It's a paradox! w00t)

It would have been a better ending for the character of Kirk, but
it wouldn't have made the movie any better. It wouldn't have
dealt with the awful photorp issue you cited, or why Picard didn't
choose to exit the Nexus and go back to the E-D at Amargosa
and have Soran thrown into the brig on sight and the station
searched for secret rooms, or why nobody checked LaForge's
visor for enemy transmissions even though that trick was already
pulled on them the last time LaForge was abducted by an enemy.

My alternate ending is less complicated. When Picard explains
the situation to Kirk, Kirk says, "you can leave this place and go
back in time and you want to go to a moment when there'll be
only seconds to defeat an armed enemy? Go back three days
earlier and clap the sonuvabitch in the brig on your ship! WTF
are they teaching in Starfleet Academy these days?" Then Kirk
exits the Nexus and comes up behind Scotty and Chekov as
they're staring out through the hole in the E-B, and on the way
back to the bridge says he hopes this rescue won't delay their
return to Earth because Carol hates it when he's home late for
dinner. They can keep the Idaho cabin scene and just
loop "Carol" over "Antonia" and delete Kirk's lines about
going back to Starfleet; let the audience think he was taking
Carol breakfast in bed after one of their usual fantastic nights
together, and his "regret" over it is that PIcard has come along
to ruin what was going to be a fantastic morning.

GeneK

Steven L. wrote:
> Jaxtraw wrote:

<snip>

>> Well, keep the "Kirk and Picard go back and stop Soran" bit. We're
>> only reshooting the ending and reediting, after all. Don't kill
>> Kirk, which was unnecessary. Have our two captains triumph by
>> teamwork, which is very Trek. Now we're stuck with Kirk in the 24th
>> century, which we don't want. Hmm.

Okay, with you so far.

>>
>> Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird
>> and have Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their
>> differences, and drawn together by the death of David). This was in
>> the original prologue for The Undiscovered Country, after all, but
>> cut out at the script stage. Fans will like this. We can keep the
>> kitchen scene (have Shatner dub in "Carol" instead of "Antonia") and
>> shoot a few extra lines discussing Carol. Keep "going back to
>> Starfleet" as the thing which broke them up, and which Kirk regrets.

Could be.

>>
>> Now, back to the end of the movie. The Farragut has picked up the
>> survivors from the saucer crash, Picard and Kirk. Our crew and Kirk
>> all stand around for a short scene musing what to do with Kirk, and
>> Kirk says "transport me into the Nexus again". Picard is surprised
>> that he'd want to live in a make believe world (shades of The
>> Menagerie here) but Kirk explains he's out of his time in the 24C
>> and anyway, he's not planning to stay in the Nexus- after all, you
>> can leave "any time, any place, anywhere". So the Enterprise catches
>> the Nexus up (easily done, we know it's slower than a starship) and
>> after a brief farewell scene, off goes Kirk.

A problem here is the beaming into the Nexus. If it was /that/ easy, why
would Soran have bothered blowing up stars?

>>
>> We now see him back in (the real) Idaho. He goes into the bedroom and
>> Carol's there.
>>
>> INT BEDROOM
>>
>> CAROL
>> Eggs for breakfast? Are you softening me up for something?
>>
>> KIRK (Slightly evasive)
>> No... no...
>>
>> CAROL
>> What was that letter from starfleet about?
>>
>> KIRK
>> Nothing, nothing that matters.
>>
>> CAROL
>> They asked you back, didn't they?
>>
>> KIRK
>> (sigh) Yes, they did. But gallivanting around the galaxy's for the
>> young. I don't need a starship any more. I have you.
>> (cue violins on soundtrack)

Or they could both go on a Trek. Just the two of them.
Carol's a scientist. She might still have some curiousity in her.
Maybe in stead of adjusting to her, she might find out why Jim was always
drawn to the stars.

>>
>> Back to some kind of wrap on the Farragut with Picard and Guinan.
>> Also, edit out that crap with Data and the cat. In fact, edit Data
>> out of the movie entirely where possible. Jesus, he's annoying.

Kinda.
I think that chip thing was a *huge* mistake.

>>
>> We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his
>> days in his dotage happily with Carol.
>
> One problem with this is that in order for the Nexus to be this place
> of total happiness and contentment, the Nexus would also have to bring
> Kirk's son David back, not just Carol. Kirk was shattered over the
> death of his son (cf. ST III: TWOK) and the Nexus would necessarily
> restore his son to him.
>
> Since Merritt Butrick (who had played David) had passed away five
> years before the Generations movie was released, working around this
> would present problems.

Not really.
Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

GeneK wrote:
> "Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote...


<snip>

> My alternate ending is less complicated. When Picard explains
> the situation to Kirk, Kirk says, "you can leave this place and go
> back in time and you want to go to a moment when there'll be
> only seconds to defeat an armed enemy? Go back three days
> earlier and clap the sonuvabitch in the brig on your ship! WTF
> are they teaching in Starfleet Academy these days?" Then Kirk
> exits the Nexus and comes up behind Scotty and Chekov as
> they're staring out through the hole in the E-B, and on the way
> back to the bridge says he hopes this rescue won't delay their
> return to Earth because Carol hates it when he's home late for
> dinner. They can keep the Idaho cabin scene and just
> loop "Carol" over "Antonia" and delete Kirk's lines about
> going back to Starfleet; let the audience think he was taking
> Carol breakfast in bed after one of their usual fantastic nights
> together, and his "regret" over it is that PIcard has come along
> to ruin what was going to be a fantastic morning.
>

LOL
Love that one.
It would also fit nicely with 'Relics'.

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

Wouter Valentijn wrote:
> Steven L. wrote:
>> Jaxtraw wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Well, keep the "Kirk and Picard go back and stop Soran" bit. We're
>>> only reshooting the ending and reediting, after all. Don't kill
>>> Kirk, which was unnecessary. Have our two captains triumph by
>>> teamwork, which is very Trek. Now we're stuck with Kirk in the 24th
>>> century, which we don't want. Hmm.
>
> Okay, with you so far.
>
>>> Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird
>>> and have Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their
>>> differences, and drawn together by the death of David). This was in
>>> the original prologue for The Undiscovered Country, after all, but
>>> cut out at the script stage. Fans will like this. We can keep the
>>> kitchen scene (have Shatner dub in "Carol" instead of "Antonia") and
>>> shoot a few extra lines discussing Carol. Keep "going back to
>>> Starfleet" as the thing which broke them up, and which Kirk regrets.
>
> Could be.
>
>>> Now, back to the end of the movie. The Farragut has picked up the
>>> survivors from the saucer crash, Picard and Kirk. Our crew and Kirk
>>> all stand around for a short scene musing what to do with Kirk, and
>>> Kirk says "transport me into the Nexus again". Picard is surprised
>>> that he'd want to live in a make believe world (shades of The
>>> Menagerie here) but Kirk explains he's out of his time in the 24C
>>> and anyway, he's not planning to stay in the Nexus- after all, you
>>> can leave "any time, any place, anywhere". So the Enterprise catches
>>> the Nexus up (easily done, we know it's slower than a starship) and
>>> after a brief farewell scene, off goes Kirk.
>
> A problem here is the beaming into the Nexus. If it was /that/ easy, why
> would Soran have bothered blowing up stars?
>
>>> We now see him back in (the real) Idaho. He goes into the bedroom and
>>> Carol's there.
>>>
>>> INT BEDROOM
>>>
>>> CAROL
>>> Eggs for breakfast? Are you softening me up for something?
>>>
>>> KIRK (Slightly evasive)
>>> No... no...
>>>
>>> CAROL
>>> What was that letter from starfleet about?
>>>
>>> KIRK
>>> Nothing, nothing that matters.
>>>
>>> CAROL
>>> They asked you back, didn't they?
>>>
>>> KIRK
>>> (sigh) Yes, they did. But gallivanting around the galaxy's for the
>>> young. I don't need a starship any more. I have you.
>>> (cue violins on soundtrack)
>
> Or they could both go on a Trek. Just the two of them.
> Carol's a scientist. She might still have some curiousity in her.
> Maybe in stead of adjusting to her, she might find out why Jim was always
> drawn to the stars.
>
>>> Back to some kind of wrap on the Farragut with Picard and Guinan.
>>> Also, edit out that crap with Data and the cat. In fact, edit Data
>>> out of the movie entirely where possible. Jesus, he's annoying.
>
> Kinda.
> I think that chip thing was a *huge* mistake.
>
>>> We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his
>>> days in his dotage happily with Carol.
>> One problem with this is that in order for the Nexus to be this place
>> of total happiness and contentment, the Nexus would also have to bring
>> Kirk's son David back, not just Carol. Kirk was shattered over the
>> death of his son (cf. ST III: TWOK) and the Nexus would necessarily
>> restore his son to him.
>>
>> Since Merritt Butrick (who had played David) had passed away five
>> years before the Generations movie was released, working around this
>> would present problems.
>
> Not really.
> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.

Picard's family hadn't had co-starring roles in major Trek movies.

Replacing Merritt Butrick, who had major speaking roles in two earlier
Trek movies, with a nondescript actor for Generations would present
problems. By then, Butrick had become too closely identified with the
David role. He wasn't just some extra you could replace that easily.


--
Steven L.
Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Steven L. wrote:
> Wouter Valentijn wrote:

<snip>

>>> Since Merritt Butrick (who had played David) had passed away five
>>> years before the Generations movie was released, working around this
>>> would present problems.
>>
>> Not really.
>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
>
> Picard's family hadn't had co-starring roles in major Trek movies.
>
> Replacing Merritt Butrick, who had major speaking roles in two earlier
> Trek movies, with a nondescript actor for Generations would present
> problems. By then, Butrick had become too closely identified with the
> David role. He wasn't just some extra you could replace that easily.

I wouldn't call Jeremy Kemp small potatoes either.
It bothered me he wasn't there.
It bothered me even more they had killed off his character.

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

> >> Not really.
> >> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.

Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."

Rik

rikp@aol.com wrote:
>>>> Not really.
>>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
>
> Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
>

Very good example!

And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor that played
Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might now spin it as
son and father.


--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

Jaxtraw wrote:
> We know they were desperate to kill off Kirk to ensure that
> TOS was dead and their thing (TNG) would reign supreme by definitely
> killing the one character without whom no more TOS could certainly be
> made.

And yet they failed miserably, as 4 films later, we all find ourselves
looking forward to a new Trek movie featuring ToS crew - albeit with
different actors.

The writers failed to take into account the complete disdain that Starfleet
crews have for the temporal prime directive, and it has come back and bit
them on the arse, LOL.

Wouter Valentijn wrote:
> Steven L. wrote:
>> Jaxtraw wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Well, keep the "Kirk and Picard go back and stop Soran" bit. We're
>>> only reshooting the ending and reediting, after all. Don't kill
>>> Kirk, which was unnecessary. Have our two captains triumph by
>>> teamwork, which is very Trek. Now we're stuck with Kirk in the 24th
>>> century, which we don't want. Hmm.
>
> Okay, with you so far.
>
>>>
>>> Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird
>>> and have Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their
>>> differences, and drawn together by the death of David). This was in
>>> the original prologue for The Undiscovered Country, after all, but
>>> cut out at the script stage. Fans will like this. We can keep the
>>> kitchen scene (have Shatner dub in "Carol" instead of "Antonia") and
>>> shoot a few extra lines discussing Carol. Keep "going back to
>>> Starfleet" as the thing which broke them up, and which Kirk regrets.
>
> Could be.
>
>>>
>>> Now, back to the end of the movie. The Farragut has picked up the
>>> survivors from the saucer crash, Picard and Kirk. Our crew and Kirk
>>> all stand around for a short scene musing what to do with Kirk, and
>>> Kirk says "transport me into the Nexus again". Picard is surprised
>>> that he'd want to live in a make believe world (shades of The
>>> Menagerie here) but Kirk explains he's out of his time in the 24C
>>> and anyway, he's not planning to stay in the Nexus- after all, you
>>> can leave "any time, any place, anywhere". So the Enterprise catches
>>> the Nexus up (easily done, we know it's slower than a starship) and
>>> after a brief farewell scene, off goes Kirk.
>
> A problem here is the beaming into the Nexus. If it was /that/ easy,
> why would Soran have bothered blowing up stars?

Who knows? At the start of the movie, getting in is easy. Soran and Guinan
were just on ships that were caught in it. The only reason they're not in
there is that Scotty snatched them away. Presumably all their fellow
El-Aurians are in there living endless lives of bliss. Likewise, Kirk got in
by just being there in a spaceship.

Suddenly later on its very difficult to get in. Picard mumbles something
about every ship that encounters it getting destroyed. Well, who cares if
you end up in the nexus after your ship blows up?

That plot hole is not my problem :)


Ian

--
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
sci-fi comics with shagging in

Steven L. wrote:
> Jaxtraw wrote:
<snip>
>Back to some kind of wrap on the Farragut with Picard and Guinan.
>> Also, edit out that crap with Data and the cat. In fact, edit Data
>> out of the movie entirely where possible. Jesus, he's annoying.
>>
>> We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his
>> days in his dotage happily with Carol.
>
> One problem with this is that in order for the Nexus to be this place
> of total happiness and contentment, the Nexus would also have to bring
> Kirk's son David back, not just Carol. Kirk was shattered over the
> death of his son (cf. ST III: TWOK) and the Nexus would necessarily
> restore his son to him.
>
> Since Merritt Butrick (who had played David) had passed away five
> years before the Generations movie was released, working around this
> would present problems.

Well firstly I don't think even Anybody would complain about recasting a
supporting character whose actor is dead. Would they?

Secondly, the Nexus seemed to be working back through Kirk's life. So we
never got to the David stage.

> I wasn't that bothered by the death of Kirk in Generations. As far
> as I was concerned, ST VI: The Undiscovered Country was supposed to
> be the final swan song of the TOS crew. That was fine with me.

I thought there were a couple more movies in the old crew, especially after
two being taken up by the Spock arc (III and IV), the latter of which is
barely a Trek movie at all, and V, which was a disappointment all around. I
didn't see why they were pensioned off so early.


Ian

--
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
sci-fi comics with shagging in

"Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> One problem with this is that in order for the Nexus to be this place
> of total happiness and contentment, the Nexus would also have to bring
> Kirk's son David back, not just Carol. Kirk was shattered over the
> death of his son (cf. ST III: TWOK) and the Nexus would necessarily
> restore his son to him.

That depends on how Kirk is depicted. The way he's
presented in "Generations" as filmed, he's a depressive
who's not dealing well with "retirement." But spin him
into someone who's come to terms with his past regrets
and turned his retirement into a more satisfying life,
either with Carol or someone else, and everything may
change. What does a person who's made peace with
his past and is already happy and content with his
current life experience when he's thrown into the nexus?

GeneK

Jaxtraw wrote:
> Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>> Steven L. wrote:
>>> Jaxtraw wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Well, keep the "Kirk and Picard go back and stop Soran" bit. We're
>>>> only reshooting the ending and reediting, after all. Don't kill
>>>> Kirk, which was unnecessary. Have our two captains triumph by
>>>> teamwork, which is very Trek. Now we're stuck with Kirk in the 24th
>>>> century, which we don't want. Hmm.
>>
>> Okay, with you so far.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird
>>>> and have Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their
>>>> differences, and drawn together by the death of David). This was in
>>>> the original prologue for The Undiscovered Country, after all, but
>>>> cut out at the script stage. Fans will like this. We can keep the
>>>> kitchen scene (have Shatner dub in "Carol" instead of "Antonia")
>>>> and shoot a few extra lines discussing Carol. Keep "going back to
>>>> Starfleet" as the thing which broke them up, and which Kirk
>>>> regrets.
>>
>> Could be.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, back to the end of the movie. The Farragut has picked up the
>>>> survivors from the saucer crash, Picard and Kirk. Our crew and Kirk
>>>> all stand around for a short scene musing what to do with Kirk, and
>>>> Kirk says "transport me into the Nexus again". Picard is surprised
>>>> that he'd want to live in a make believe world (shades of The
>>>> Menagerie here) but Kirk explains he's out of his time in the 24C
>>>> and anyway, he's not planning to stay in the Nexus- after all, you
>>>> can leave "any time, any place, anywhere". So the Enterprise
>>>> catches the Nexus up (easily done, we know it's slower than a
>>>> starship) and after a brief farewell scene, off goes Kirk.
>>
>> A problem here is the beaming into the Nexus. If it was /that/ easy,
>> why would Soran have bothered blowing up stars?
>
> Who knows? At the start of the movie, getting in is easy. Soran and
> Guinan were just on ships that were caught in it. The only reason
> they're not in there is that Scotty snatched them away. Presumably
> all their fellow El-Aurians are in there living endless lives of
> bliss. Likewise, Kirk got in by just being there in a spaceship.
>
> Suddenly later on its very difficult to get in. Picard mumbles
> something about every ship that encounters it getting destroyed.
> Well, who cares if you end up in the nexus after your ship blows up?
>
> That plot hole is not my problem :)
>

Yeah...
Maybe it was a case of Soran being chicken.
Afraid that he would be killid on an exploding ship /before/ he would be in
the Nexus again.


--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

GeneK wrote:
> "Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> One problem with this is that in order for the Nexus to be this place
>> of total happiness and contentment, the Nexus would also have to
>> bring Kirk's son David back, not just Carol. Kirk was shattered
>> over the death of his son (cf. ST III: TWOK) and the Nexus would
>> necessarily restore his son to him.
>
> That depends on how Kirk is depicted. The way he's
> presented in "Generations" as filmed, he's a depressive
> who's not dealing well with "retirement." But spin him
> into someone who's come to terms with his past regrets
> and turned his retirement into a more satisfying life,
> either with Carol or someone else, and everything may
> change. What does a person who's made peace with
> his past and is already happy and content with his
> current life experience when he's thrown into the nexus?
>

Several particular Playboy centrefolds, a selection of fine cheeses and a
roll of sticky backed plastic.


Ian

--
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
sci-fi comics with shagging in

"Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote...

> Several particular Playboy centrefolds, a selection of fine cheeses
> and a
> roll of sticky backed plastic.

Works for me.

GeneK

"Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote in message
news:47cc0fa6$0$32052$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...

>
> We know they sat there
> fiddling with their little pencils trying to come up with something
> better,
> and what these towering giants of imagination came up with was doing what
> they'd already done, but slightly differently and no better (instead of
> shooting Kirk, they throw him off a bridge). We know they were desperate
> to
> kill off Kirk

I don't really have a big problem with Kirk dying a heroic death. But after
reading it, your proposed suggestion for dealing with Kirk would have been
more satisfying.

My big problem with "Generations" is that Kirk is not used in any meaningful
way. When I first heard about a crossover between TOS and TNG, I thought
that Kirk would function in some capacity in his normal role as commander,
while interacting with the TNG crew. Some examples might be: Kirk assumes
command of the Enterprise while Picard is missing or injured; Kirk assumes
command of another ship while Picard commands the Enterprise; Kirk leads an
away team while Picard remains on the ship (or vice versa), etc. Anything
along these lines would have been more meaningful than the way Kirk was
used, i.e, as hired muscle to beat up the bully who whipped Picard's butt.
Picard could have just gone into the Nexus and wished for Bruce Lee.


>
> Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird and
> have
> Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their differences,
> and
> drawn together by the death of David). This was in the original prologue
> for
> The Undiscovered Country, after all, but cut out at the script stage.

I didn't know that! I had thought that the whale lady from IV would reappear
as a possible romantic interest for Kirk.

I don't really have a problem with Kirk having a brand new girlfriend. Carol
had her shot. Her loss.

> We now see him back in (the real) Idaho. He goes into the bedroom and
> Carol's there.
>
> INT BEDROOM
>
> CAROL
> Eggs for breakfast? Are you softening me up for something?
>
> KIRK (Slightly evasive)
> No... no...
>
> CAROL
> What was that letter from starfleet about?
>
> KIRK
> Nothing, nothing that matters.
>
> CAROL
> They asked you back, didn't they?
>
> KIRK
> (sigh) Yes, they did. But gallivanting around the galaxy's for the young.
> I
> don't need a starship any more. I have you.
> (cue violins on soundtrack)

I like it. You softy, you.

> Back to some kind of wrap on the Farragut with Picard and Guinan. Also,
> edit
> out that crap with Data and the cat. In fact, edit Data out of the movie
> entirely where possible. Jesus, he's annoying.

I really enjoyed his "Oh, ****!!" moment.


> And the internet didn't really exist much as a mass medium when
> Generations
> came out, but if this ending had been filmed it would still be a great
> source of discussion about which timeline is "real" (Kirk in his dotage,
> or
> Kirk killed on the Enterprise B). (The answer is, the latter. Kirk's happy
> old age was "always" the past of TNG, as evinced by "Relics". The Ent-B
> death "never happened". It's a paradox! w00t)

Good point.

In article <0HVyj.13788$mI6.10983@newsfe08.phx>,
"GeneK" <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:

> "Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote...
>
> > We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his days in
> > his dotage happily with Carol. If he were later wanted for a guest spot in
> > another story, there's no problem with that. We've seen our hero "ride into
> > the sunset" after his last adventure, leaving all us fans with a warm glowy
> > feeling inside. The Nexus plot has significance as it gave Kirk the chance
> > to see the error of a decision, and go back and fix it.
> >
> > And the internet didn't really exist much as a mass medium when Generations
> > came out, but if this ending had been filmed it would still be a great
> > source of discussion about which timeline is "real" (Kirk in his dotage, or
> > Kirk killed on the Enterprise B). (The answer is, the latter. Kirk's happy
> > old age was "always" the past of TNG, as evinced by "Relics". The Ent-B
> > death "never happened". It's a paradox! w00t)
>
> It would have been a better ending for the character of Kirk, but
> it wouldn't have made the movie any better. It wouldn't have
> dealt with the awful photorp issue you cited, or why Picard didn't
> choose to exit the Nexus and go back to the E-D at Amargosa
> and have Soran thrown into the brig on sight and the station
> searched for secret rooms, or why nobody checked LaForge's
> visor for enemy transmissions even though that trick was already
> pulled on them the last time LaForge was abducted by an enemy.
>
> My alternate ending is less complicated. When Picard explains
> the situation to Kirk, Kirk says, "you can leave this place and go
> back in time and you want to go to a moment when there'll be
> only seconds to defeat an armed enemy? Go back three days
> earlier and clap the sonuvabitch in the brig on your ship! WTF
> are they teaching in Starfleet Academy these days?" Then Kirk
> exits the Nexus and comes up behind Scotty and Chekov as
> they're staring out through the hole in the E-B, and on the way
> back to the bridge says he hopes this rescue won't delay their
> return to Earth because Carol hates it when he's home late for
> dinner. They can keep the Idaho cabin scene and just
> loop "Carol" over "Antonia" and delete Kirk's lines about
> going back to Starfleet; let the audience think he was taking
> Carol breakfast in bed after one of their usual fantastic nights
> together, and his "regret" over it is that PIcard has come along
> to ruin what was going to be a fantastic morning.
>
> GeneK

How about, Soran shoots Picard in the back, Kirk clobbers Soran, Diana
flys the ship into the planet and gets herself and Beverly killed.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

In article <13sogt7qk88vccd@corp.supernews.com>,
"Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Wouter Valentijn wrote:
> > Steven L. wrote:
> >> Jaxtraw wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> Well, keep the "Kirk and Picard go back and stop Soran" bit. We're
> >>> only reshooting the ending and reediting, after all. Don't kill
> >>> Kirk, which was unnecessary. Have our two captains triumph by
> >>> teamwork, which is very Trek. Now we're stuck with Kirk in the 24th
> >>> century, which we don't want. Hmm.
> >
> > Okay, with you so far.
> >
> >>> Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird
> >>> and have Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their
> >>> differences, and drawn together by the death of David). This was in
> >>> the original prologue for The Undiscovered Country, after all, but
> >>> cut out at the script stage. Fans will like this. We can keep the
> >>> kitchen scene (have Shatner dub in "Carol" instead of "Antonia") and
> >>> shoot a few extra lines discussing Carol. Keep "going back to
> >>> Starfleet" as the thing which broke them up, and which Kirk regrets.
> >
> > Could be.
> >
> >>> Now, back to the end of the movie. The Farragut has picked up the
> >>> survivors from the saucer crash, Picard and Kirk. Our crew and Kirk
> >>> all stand around for a short scene musing what to do with Kirk, and
> >>> Kirk says "transport me into the Nexus again". Picard is surprised
> >>> that he'd want to live in a make believe world (shades of The
> >>> Menagerie here) but Kirk explains he's out of his time in the 24C
> >>> and anyway, he's not planning to stay in the Nexus- after all, you
> >>> can leave "any time, any place, anywhere". So the Enterprise catches
> >>> the Nexus up (easily done, we know it's slower than a starship) and
> >>> after a brief farewell scene, off goes Kirk.
> >
> > A problem here is the beaming into the Nexus. If it was /that/ easy, why
> > would Soran have bothered blowing up stars?
> >
> >>> We now see him back in (the real) Idaho. He goes into the bedroom and
> >>> Carol's there.
> >>>
> >>> INT BEDROOM
> >>>
> >>> CAROL
> >>> Eggs for breakfast? Are you softening me up for something?
> >>>
> >>> KIRK (Slightly evasive)
> >>> No... no...
> >>>
> >>> CAROL
> >>> What was that letter from starfleet about?
> >>>
> >>> KIRK
> >>> Nothing, nothing that matters.
> >>>
> >>> CAROL
> >>> They asked you back, didn't they?
> >>>
> >>> KIRK
> >>> (sigh) Yes, they did. But gallivanting around the galaxy's for the
> >>> young. I don't need a starship any more. I have you.
> >>> (cue violins on soundtrack)
> >
> > Or they could both go on a Trek. Just the two of them.
> > Carol's a scientist. She might still have some curiousity in her.
> > Maybe in stead of adjusting to her, she might find out why Jim was always
> > drawn to the stars.
> >
> >>> Back to some kind of wrap on the Farragut with Picard and Guinan.
> >>> Also, edit out that crap with Data and the cat. In fact, edit Data
> >>> out of the movie entirely where possible. Jesus, he's annoying.
> >
> > Kinda.
> > I think that chip thing was a *huge* mistake.
> >
> >>> We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his
> >>> days in his dotage happily with Carol.
> >> One problem with this is that in order for the Nexus to be this place
> >> of total happiness and contentment, the Nexus would also have to bring
> >> Kirk's son David back, not just Carol. Kirk was shattered over the
> >> death of his son (cf. ST III: TWOK) and the Nexus would necessarily
> >> restore his son to him.
> >>
> >> Since Merritt Butrick (who had played David) had passed away five
> >> years before the Generations movie was released, working around this
> >> would present problems.
> >
> > Not really.
> > Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
>
> Picard's family hadn't had co-starring roles in major Trek movies.
>
> Replacing Merritt Butrick, who had major speaking roles in two earlier
> Trek movies, with a nondescript actor for Generations would present
> problems. By then, Butrick had become too closely identified with the
> David role. He wasn't just some extra you could replace that easily.

Oh, I dunno. I bet you could have stuck Judson Scott in there an nobody
would have cared. Just tie a sweater around his shoulders and have him
act like he's too stupid to find the armholes.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

In article <47cc4e72$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
"Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> rikp@aol.com wrote:
> >>>> Not really.
> >>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
> >
> > Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
> >
>
> Very good example!
>
> And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor that played
> Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
> Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might now spin it as
> son and father.

Judson Scott claims he's supposed to be Khan's son. I have no idea how
that works.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

In article
<lC%yj.276974$MJ6.192635@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Marcovaldo" <Marcovaldo@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> I didn't know that! I had thought that the whale lady from IV would reappear
> as a possible romantic interest for Kirk.

Braga was still bragging about having never seen an episode of real
Trek; there was no way he was gonna bother to use a name we'd ever heard
before.

Gillian Taylor features prominently in the graphic novel .. Debt of
Honor .. IIRC.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

Anim8rFSK wrote:
> In article <47cc4e72$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
>> rikp@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> Not really.
>>>>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
>>>
>>> Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
>>>
>>
>> Very good example!
>>
>> And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor that
>> played Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
>> Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might now
>> spin it as son and father.
>
> Judson Scott claims he's supposed to be Khan's son. I have no idea
> how that works.

You need to ask your parents about "the birds and the bees". Be prepared for
a shock.

Anim8rFSK <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote in
news:ANIM8Rfsk-98E63B.18065203032008@news.west.cox.net:

> In article <0HVyj.13788$mI6.10983@newsfe08.phx>,
> "GeneK" <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:
>
>> "Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote...
>>
>> > We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his
>> > days in his dotage happily with Carol. If he were later wanted for
>> > a guest spot in another story, there's no problem with that. We've
>> > seen our hero "ride into the sunset" after his last adventure,
>> > leaving all us fans with a warm glowy feeling inside. The Nexus
>> > plot has significance as it gave Kirk the chance to see the error
>> > of a decision, and go back and fix it.
>> >
>> > And the internet didn't really exist much as a mass medium when
>> > Generations came out, but if this ending had been filmed it would
>> > still be a great source of discussion about which timeline is
>> > "real" (Kirk in his dotage, or Kirk killed on the Enterprise B).
>> > (The answer is, the latter. Kirk's happy old age was "always" the
>> > past of TNG, as evinced by "Relics". The Ent-B death "never
>> > happened". It's a paradox! w00t)
>>
>> It would have been a better ending for the character of Kirk, but
>> it wouldn't have made the movie any better. It wouldn't have
>> dealt with the awful photorp issue you cited, or why Picard didn't
>> choose to exit the Nexus and go back to the E-D at Amargosa
>> and have Soran thrown into the brig on sight and the station
>> searched for secret rooms, or why nobody checked LaForge's
>> visor for enemy transmissions even though that trick was already
>> pulled on them the last time LaForge was abducted by an enemy.
>>
>> My alternate ending is less complicated. When Picard explains
>> the situation to Kirk, Kirk says, "you can leave this place and go
>> back in time and you want to go to a moment when there'll be
>> only seconds to defeat an armed enemy? Go back three days
>> earlier and clap the sonuvabitch in the brig on your ship! WTF
>> are they teaching in Starfleet Academy these days?" Then Kirk
>> exits the Nexus and comes up behind Scotty and Chekov as
>> they're staring out through the hole in the E-B, and on the way
>> back to the bridge says he hopes this rescue won't delay their
>> return to Earth because Carol hates it when he's home late for
>> dinner. They can keep the Idaho cabin scene and just
>> loop "Carol" over "Antonia" and delete Kirk's lines about
>> going back to Starfleet; let the audience think he was taking
>> Carol breakfast in bed after one of their usual fantastic nights
>> together, and his "regret" over it is that PIcard has come along
>> to ruin what was going to be a fantastic morning.
>>
>> GeneK
>
> How about, Soran shoots Picard in the back, Kirk clobbers Soran, Diana
> flys the ship into the planet and gets herself and Beverly killed.
>

I happen to work with a woman named "Deanna" and she really hates to be
called Diana. Perhaps Troi would too. LOL

I also work with a Beverly but that's another story.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Jaxtraw wrote:
> Anim8rFSK wrote:
>> In article <47cc4e72$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>
>>> rikp@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Not really.
>>>>>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
>>>>
>>>
>>> Very good example!
>>>
>>> And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor that
>>> played Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
>>> Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might now
>>> spin it as son and father.
>>
>> Judson Scott claims he's supposed to be Khan's son. I have no idea
>> how that works.


The Wiki says so as well.
But I get the distinct impression that lemma wasn't completely neutral.

>
> You need to ask your parents about "the birds and the bees". Be
> prepared for a shock.

OMG! The bees as well?? So, it's not just the stork???


--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

In article <47cd103c$0$14349$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
"Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Jaxtraw wrote:
> > Anim8rFSK wrote:
> >> In article <47cc4e72$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> >> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> rikp@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> Not really.
> >>>>>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Very good example!
> >>>
> >>> And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor that
> >>> played Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
> >>> Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might now
> >>> spin it as son and father.
> >>
> >> Judson Scott claims he's supposed to be Khan's son. I have no idea
> >> how that works.
>
>
> The Wiki says so as well.

The Wiki probably got it from the Judson Scott interview. :)

> But I get the distinct impression that lemma wasn't completely neutral.
>
> >
> > You need to ask your parents about "the birds and the bees". Be
> > prepared for a shock.
>
> OMG! The bees as well?? So, it's not just the stork???

Ignoring the snarky reply, how do they end up with somebody that age 15
years after Space Seed? Did Kirk exile children to Ceti Alpha whatever?
Or did Joachim / Joaquin not age? Or was he born there by that
historian (what's her name? Micgivers?) and magically force grew?

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

"Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ANIM8Rfsk-98E63B.18065203032008@news.west.cox.net...

> How about, Soran shoots Picard in the back, Kirk clobbers Soran, Diana
> flys the ship into the planet and gets herself and Beverly killed.

I don't know - if Diana can fully get over her fear of ordering personnel to
dangerous missions, I'd bet she'd kick someone's *** as a captain.

Diana: "Hailing frequencies open"
Worf: "Channel open"
Diana: "This is the Federation Starship Enterprise calling unknown vessel"

vessel responds:
Unknown: "We mean you no harm"
Diana: "My *** you don't. I can sense you. Worf, kindly blow them away
with a full spread of quantum torpedoes"
Worf: "Torpedoes locked. Firing"
Unknown: "But..."

BOOM

"Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote in message
news:47cc0fa6$0$32052$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
> Being something of a glutton for punishment, yesterday I made the perhaps
> unwise decision to watch Trek VII again. Ignoring the numerous plot
> wierdnesses

Speaking of plot-holes, here's the biggie.....

Picard decides to bring himself and Soren out of the nexus with only moments
in which to make a difference!

How about this? Picard comes out of the nexus when Soren comes aboard and
throws his butt in the brig until the wave passes?

Better yet, Kirk comes out when Soren comes aboard the E-B, grabs him before
Chekov sedates him, drags him down to deflector control. straps himself in
out of danger and instructs Soren how to reprogram the deflector dish so
that the energy ribbon is disapated AND sends Soren into the Nexus INSTEAD
of Kirk!

C'mon, writers... and I didn't even go ot on strike!

"Snake" <fluidSPAMstates_no+spam@optonline.net> wrote in
news:47cdf805$0$5641$607ed4bc@cv.net:

> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:ANIM8Rfsk-98E63B.18065203032008@news.west.cox.net...
>
>> How about, Soran shoots Picard in the back, Kirk clobbers Soran,
>> Diana flys the ship into the planet and gets herself and Beverly
>> killed.
>
> I don't know - if Diana can fully get over her fear of ordering
> personnel to dangerous missions, I'd bet she'd kick someone's *** as a
> captain.
>
> Diana: "Hailing frequencies open"
> Worf: "Channel open"
> Diana: "This is the Federation Starship Enterprise calling unknown
> vessel"
>
> vessel responds:
> Unknown: "We mean you no harm"
> Diana: "My *** you don't. I can sense you. Worf, kindly blow them
> away with a full spread of quantum torpedoes"
> Worf: "Torpedoes locked. Firing"
> Unknown: "But..."
>
> BOOM
>
>

It's "Deanna."

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Anim8rFSK wrote:
> In article <47cd103c$0$14349$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
>> Jaxtraw wrote:
>>> Anim8rFSK wrote:
>>>> In article <47cc4e72$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
>>>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> rikp@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Not really.
>>>>>>>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Very good example!
>>>>>
>>>>> And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor that
>>>>> played Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
>>>>> Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might now
>>>>> spin it as son and father.
>>>>
>>>> Judson Scott claims he's supposed to be Khan's son. I have no idea
>>>> how that works.
>>
>>
>> The Wiki says so as well.
>
> The Wiki probably got it from the Judson Scott interview. :)
>
>> But I get the distinct impression that lemma wasn't completely
>> neutral.
>>
>>>
>>> You need to ask your parents about "the birds and the bees". Be
>>> prepared for a shock.
>>
>> OMG! The bees as well?? So, it's not just the stork???
>
> Ignoring the snarky reply, how do they end up with somebody that age
> 15 years after Space Seed? Did Kirk exile children to Ceti Alpha
> whatever? Or did Joachim / Joaquin not age? Or was he born there by
> that historian (what's her name? Micgivers?) and magically force
> grew?

Scott is from 1952, so in TWOK he was about 30.
Suppose his character was also that old. Then at the time of exile he would
have been about 15. If he was born on that planet they do not age well.
Joaquin was played by Mark Tobin, who was ... IMDB does not give a dob.
Memory Alpha says Joachim was the son of Joaquin.
Startrek.com also gives two separate entries.
But to me it is still just a typo. ;-)

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

"Wiseguy" <epwise@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A581E72C2B66epwiseyahoocom@66.150.105.47. ..
> "Snake" <fluidSPAMstates_no+spam@optonline.net> wrote in
> news:47cdf805$0$5641$607ed4bc@cv.net:
>
> > "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:ANIM8Rfsk-98E63B.18065203032008@news.west.cox.net...
> >
> >> How about, Soran shoots Picard in the back, Kirk clobbers Soran,
> >> Diana flys the ship into the planet and gets herself and Beverly
> >> killed.
> >
> > I don't know - if Diana can fully get over her fear of ordering
> > personnel to dangerous missions, I'd bet she'd kick someone's *** as a
> > captain.
> >
> > Diana: "Hailing frequencies open"
> > Worf: "Channel open"
> > Diana: "This is the Federation Starship Enterprise calling unknown
> > vessel"
> >
> > vessel responds:
> > Unknown: "We mean you no harm"
> > Diana: "My *** you don't. I can sense you. Worf, kindly blow them
> > away with a full spread of quantum torpedoes"
> > Worf: "Torpedoes locked. Firing"
> > Unknown: "But..."
> >
> > BOOM
> >
> >
>
> It's "Deanna."

...if ya got nothing to add, pick up the spellin'... oh wait you do that
already.... how superior of you, you're so smrt!

--

Qapla'
Kweeg
Ten of Canadian Clubs in the Eeeevil Trek Cabal
"Half a gallon a'scotch!" Scotty (Spectre of the Gun)
1,079,252,848.8 km/h, not just a good idea, it's the law.
"So say we all!"

"Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote in message
news:47ce7612$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

> Scott is from 1952, so in TWOK he was about 30.
> Suppose his character was also that old. Then at the time of exile he
would
> have been about 15. If he was born on that planet they do not age well.
> Joaquin was played by Mark Tobin, who was ... IMDB does not give a dob.
> Memory Alpha says Joachim was the son of Joaquin.
> Startrek.com also gives two separate entries.

> But to me it is still just a typo. ;-)

....just like 95% of Voyager...
{{;-/>
--

Qapla'
Kweeg
Ten of Canadian Clubs in the Eeeevil Trek Cabal
"Half a gallon a'scotch!" Scotty (Spectre of the Gun)
1,079,252,848.8 km/h, not just a good idea, it's the law.
"So say we all!"

In article <xLnzj.381$b61.130@newsfe06.lga>,
"Dough" <dhubler@charter.net> wrote:

> "Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote in message
> news:47cc0fa6$0$32052$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
> > Being something of a glutton for punishment, yesterday I made the perhaps
> > unwise decision to watch Trek VII again. Ignoring the numerous plot
> > wierdnesses
>
> Speaking of plot-holes, here's the biggie.....
>
> Picard decides to bring himself and Soren out of the nexus with only moments
> in which to make a difference!
>
> How about this? Picard comes out of the nexus when Soren comes aboard and
> throws his butt in the brig until the wave passes?
>
> Better yet, Kirk comes out when Soren comes aboard the E-B, grabs him before
> Chekov sedates him, drags him down to deflector control. straps himself in
> out of danger and instructs Soren how to reprogram the deflector dish so
> that the energy ribbon is disapated AND sends Soren into the Nexus INSTEAD
> of Kirk!
>
> C'mon, writers... and I didn't even go ot on strike!

How about 'Picard comes out in time to save his family'

Or 'Picard comes out in the nick of time but on the right side of the
forcefield'

Or 'Picard comes out ANYWHERE but where and when he did'

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

In article <47ce7612$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
"Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Anim8rFSK wrote:
> > In article <47cd103c$0$14349$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> > "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >
> >> Jaxtraw wrote:
> >>> Anim8rFSK wrote:
> >>>> In article <47cc4e72$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> >>>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> rikp@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Not really.
> >>>>>>>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Very good example!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor that
> >>>>> played Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
> >>>>> Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might now
> >>>>> spin it as son and father.
> >>>>
> >>>> Judson Scott claims he's supposed to be Khan's son. I have no idea
> >>>> how that works.
> >>
> >>
> >> The Wiki says so as well.
> >
> > The Wiki probably got it from the Judson Scott interview. :)
> >
> >> But I get the distinct impression that lemma wasn't completely
> >> neutral.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> You need to ask your parents about "the birds and the bees". Be
> >>> prepared for a shock.
> >>
> >> OMG! The bees as well?? So, it's not just the stork???
> >
> > Ignoring the snarky reply, how do they end up with somebody that age
> > 15 years after Space Seed? Did Kirk exile children to Ceti Alpha
> > whatever? Or did Joachim / Joaquin not age? Or was he born there by
> > that historian (what's her name? Micgivers?) and magically force
> > grew?
>
> Scott is from 1952, so in TWOK he was about 30.
> Suppose his character was also that old. Then at the time of exile he would
> have been about 15. If he was born on that planet they do not age well.
> Joaquin was played by Mark Tobin, who was ... IMDB does not give a dob.
> Memory Alpha says Joachim was the son of Joaquin.
> Startrek.com also gives two separate entries.
> But to me it is still just a typo. ;-)

But Mark Tobin was a black haired adult. Regardless, it's a mess.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

Anim8rFSK wrote:
> In article <47ce7612$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
>> Anim8rFSK wrote:
>>> In article <47cd103c$0$14349$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
>>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jaxtraw wrote:
>>>>> Anim8rFSK wrote:
>>>>>> In article <47cc4e72$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
>>>>>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rikp@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Not really.
>>>>>>>>>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very good example!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor
>>>>>>> that played Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
>>>>>>> Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might
>>>>>>> now spin it as son and father.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Judson Scott claims he's supposed to be Khan's son. I have no
>>>>>> idea how that works.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Wiki says so as well.
>>>
>>> The Wiki probably got it from the Judson Scott interview. :)
>>>
>>>> But I get the distinct impression that lemma wasn't completely
>>>> neutral.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You need to ask your parents about "the birds and the bees". Be
>>>>> prepared for a shock.
>>>>
>>>> OMG! The bees as well?? So, it's not just the stork???
>>>
>>> Ignoring the snarky reply, how do they end up with somebody that age
>>> 15 years after Space Seed? Did Kirk exile children to Ceti Alpha
>>> whatever? Or did Joachim / Joaquin not age? Or was he born there by
>>> that historian (what's her name? Micgivers?) and magically force
>>> grew?
>>
>> Scott is from 1952, so in TWOK he was about 30.
>> Suppose his character was also that old. Then at the time of exile
>> he would have been about 15. If he was born on that planet they do
>> not age well. Joaquin was played by Mark Tobin, who was ... IMDB
>> does not give a dob. Memory Alpha says Joachim was the son of
>> Joaquin.
>> Startrek.com also gives two separate entries.
>> But to me it is still just a typo. ;-)
>
> But Mark Tobin was a black haired adult.

Uhm...
Bleach job gone horribly wrong.
Parts of his face were eaten away and Khan, brilliant as ever, did some
impromptu facial surgery on his old friend Joaquin, who was so in shock
afterwards he insisted on being called Joachim. There! ;-)

> Regardless, it's a mess.

Yep.


--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

"Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote
> How about 'Picard comes out in time to save his family'
>
> Or 'Picard comes out in the nick of time but on the right side of the
> forcefield'
>
> Or 'Picard comes out ANYWHERE but where and when he did'

Paris. The day he stood up his girlfriend. He marries her and
changes careers.

GeneK

"Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote in message news:ANIM8Rfsk-
> But Mark Tobin was a black haired adult. Regardless, it's a mess.

But on an "mess" scale from 0-10 where 0 is perfect
and 10 is "Nemesis," it registers about 0.01. Right at
the same level as Kirk calling Kyle "Kowel."

GeneK

GeneK wrote:
> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote in message news:ANIM8Rfsk-
>> But Mark Tobin was a black haired adult. Regardless, it's a mess.
>
> But on an "mess" scale from 0-10 where 0 is perfect
> and 10 is "Nemesis," it registers about 0.01. Right at
> the same level as Kirk calling Kyle "Kowel."
>

Is Nemesis the worst TNG movie? I'd vote either Insurrection for being both
banal and buffoonish, or Generations (after the TOS prologue) for being a
swiss cheese of plot holes, and Data's "emotional" acting. I actually found
Nemesis at least quite enjoyable, if not particularly "great". Right up
until the ending, which sucks so hard it creates a great black hole of
suckitude. Well, Spiner was annoying of course all the way through, and it
needed about 50% less Picard.

It's strange that Baird seems to get most of the blame for Nemesis. But the
flaws I see are in the script. I'm no expert on directing, but that seems
competent enough to me.


Ian

--
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
sci-fi comics with shagging in

Marcovaldo wrote:
> "Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote in message
> news:47cc0fa6$0$32052$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
>>
>> We know they sat there
>> fiddling with their little pencils trying to come up with something
>> better,
>> and what these towering giants of imagination came up with was doing
>> what they'd already done, but slightly differently and no better
>> (instead of shooting Kirk, they throw him off a bridge). We know
>> they were desperate to
>> kill off Kirk
>
> I don't really have a big problem with Kirk dying a heroic death. But
> after reading it, your proposed suggestion for dealing with Kirk
> would have been more satisfying.
>
> My big problem with "Generations" is that Kirk is not used in any
> meaningful way. When I first heard about a crossover between TOS and
> TNG, I thought that Kirk would function in some capacity in his
> normal role as commander, while interacting with the TNG crew. Some
> examples might be: Kirk assumes command of the Enterprise while
> Picard is missing or injured; Kirk assumes command of another ship
> while Picard commands the Enterprise; Kirk leads an away team while
> Picard remains on the ship (or vice versa), etc. Anything along these
> lines would have been more meaningful than the way Kirk was used,
> i.e, as hired muscle to beat up the bully who whipped Picard's butt.
> Picard could have just gone into the Nexus and wished for Bruce Lee.

Or the rest of his crew, who were presumably also in there :)

You're right of course; why Kirk to help him beat up Soran? The problem the
writers had, I guess, is that they've already got the TNG problem of two
commanding officers (Riker and Picard) and now they need to find a use for
another one! It's the problem with every TNG movie. Giving both Picard and
Riker something each to do, especially with Stewart apparently demanding to
be the action hero, silly man.

So they put Picard uselessly down on the planet ("I'll talk Soran out of
it". Yeah, good plan Captain) then have Riker just hanging around in space
doing nothing until his starship gets blown up. And Kirk as a hired heavy.
It's astonishingly bad plotting that shouldn't have made it past the "trying
to think up ideas for a story" stage.

Besides all else, couldn't the Enterprise locate Picard and Soran on the
surface, them being the only beings on an uninhabited planet and all, or at
least Soran's "50 Gigawatt forcefield"? Then, y'know, beam down some
redshirts or something?

>>
>> Well, let's backtrack a bit. Get rid of this unknown "Antonia" bird
>> and have
>> Kirk shacked up with Carol Marcus (having reconciled their
>> differences, and
>> drawn together by the death of David). This was in the original
>> prologue for
>> The Undiscovered Country, after all, but cut out at the script stage.
>
> I didn't know that!

According to Shatner's Movie Memories, there was to be a little backstory
for each of the characters; Kirk with Carol, Scotty's spending his
retirement trying to work out how the BoP's cloaking device works, that kind
of thing.

> I had thought that the whale lady from IV would
> reappear as a possible romantic interest for Kirk.
>
> I don't really have a problem with Kirk having a brand new
> girlfriend. Carol had her shot. Her loss.

Well, she's a character with canon significance which is good for us fanboys
and would give some sense of closure to Kirk's "personal life" arc which
stretches all the way back to his loneliness in the series. I'd like that,
personally.

>> We now see him back in (the real) Idaho. He goes into the bedroom and
>> Carol's there.
>>
>> INT BEDROOM
<snip>
>> CAROL
>> They asked you back, didn't they?
>>
>> KIRK
>> (sigh) Yes, they did. But gallivanting around the galaxy's for the
>> young. I
>> don't need a starship any more. I have you.
>> (cue violins on soundtrack)
>
> I like it. You softy, you.

Guilty as charged.


>> Back to some kind of wrap on the Farragut with Picard and Guinan.
>> Also, edit
>> out that crap with Data and the cat. In fact, edit Data out of the
>> movie entirely where possible. Jesus, he's annoying.
>
> I really enjoyed his "Oh, ****!!" moment.

I thought it was contrived, like all his "special" lines in the movies.
Whose toes don't curl every time they watch the immortal "saddle up, lock
and load" for instance?


Ian


--
http://www.jaxtrawstudios.com
sci-fi comics with shagging in

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 21:10:03 -0000, "Jaxtraw"
<jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote:

>Is Nemesis the worst TNG movie? I'd vote either Insurrection for being both
>banal and buffoonish, or Generations (after the TOS prologue) for being a
>swiss cheese of plot holes, and Data's "emotional" acting. I actually found
>Nemesis at least quite enjoyable, if not particularly "great". Right up
>until the ending, which sucks so hard it creates a great black hole of
>suckitude. Well, Spiner was annoying of course all the way through, and it
>needed about 50% less Picard.

Nemesis is my favorite of the ten movies, largely because of the climactic
battle sequence, and the ending. I don't think much of Shinzon as a
villain, saw no story-internal reason why he had to be a Picard clone, and
no story-internal reason for the Tal Shi'ar to abandon their attempt to
infiltrate Starfleet, and I thought the movie was way too dark, both
physically and emotionally. But, the Scimitar was one bad-*** warship, and
as TMP was a remake of "The Changeling", I thought Nemesis was a remake of
"Balance of Terror" The TWOK similarities never occurred to me until
someone here pointed them out ..

George Peatty wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 21:10:03 -0000, "Jaxtraw"
> <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote:
>
>> Is Nemesis the worst TNG movie? I'd vote either Insurrection for
>> being both banal and buffoonish, or Generations (after the TOS
>> prologue) for being a swiss cheese of plot holes, and Data's
>> "emotional" acting. I actually found Nemesis at least quite
>> enjoyable, if not particularly "great". Right up until the ending,
>> which sucks so hard it creates a great black hole of suckitude.
>> Well, Spiner was annoying of course all the way through, and it
>> needed about 50% less Picard.
>
> Nemesis is my favorite of the ten movies, largely because of the
> climactic battle sequence, and the ending. I don't think much of
> Shinzon as a villain, saw no story-internal reason why he had to be a
> Picard clone, and no story-internal reason for the Tal Shi'ar to
> abandon their attempt to infiltrate Starfleet, and I thought the
> movie was way too dark, both physically and emotionally. But, the
> Scimitar was one bad-*** warship, and as TMP was a remake of "The
> Changeling", I thought Nemesis was a remake of "Balance of Terror"
> The TWOK similarities never occurred to me until someone here pointed
> them out ..

Balance of Terror?
Sure, Nemesis had a big space battle and it did feature new Romulan tech,
but I would not put Shinzon on the same level as the Romulan Commander who
was a distant cousin of Spock's father. On the other hand, the gap between
Nemesis and TWOK is even wider imo. Kirk and Khan had an actual history
together.

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

In article <47ceef6a$0$14343$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
"Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Anim8rFSK wrote:
> > In article <47ce7612$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> > "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >
> >> Anim8rFSK wrote:
> >>> In article <47cd103c$0$14349$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> >>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Jaxtraw wrote:
> >>>>> Anim8rFSK wrote:
> >>>>>> In article <47cc4e72$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> >>>>>> "Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> rikp@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Not really.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Remember Picard's family? They replaced those actors too.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not to mention Saavik's change from "Khan" to "Spock."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Very good example!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And between Space Seed and TWOK they also replaced the actor
> >>>>>>> that played Joachim / Joaquin Weiss.
> >>>>>>> Although originally the name change was a mistake, they might
> >>>>>>> now spin it as son and father.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Judson Scott claims he's supposed to be Khan's son. I have no
> >>>>>> idea how that works.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The Wiki says so as well.
> >>>
> >>> The Wiki probably got it from the Judson Scott interview. :)
> >>>
> >>>> But I get the distinct impression that lemma wasn't completely
> >>>> neutral.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You need to ask your parents about "the birds and the bees". Be
> >>>>> prepared for a shock.
> >>>>
> >>>> OMG! The bees as well?? So, it's not just the stork???
> >>>
> >>> Ignoring the snarky reply, how do they end up with somebody that age
> >>> 15 years after Space Seed? Did Kirk exile children to Ceti Alpha
> >>> whatever? Or did Joachim / Joaquin not age? Or was he born there by
> >>> that historian (what's her name? Micgivers?) and magically force
> >>> grew?
> >>
> >> Scott is from 1952, so in TWOK he was about 30.
> >> Suppose his character was also that old. Then at the time of exile
> >> he would have been about 15. If he was born on that planet they do
> >> not age well. Joaquin was played by Mark Tobin, who was ... IMDB
> >> does not give a dob. Memory Alpha says Joachim was the son of
> >> Joaquin.
> >> Startrek.com also gives two separate entries.
> >> But to me it is still just a typo. ;-)
> >
> > But Mark Tobin was a black haired adult.
>
> Uhm...
> Bleach job gone horribly wrong.
> Parts of his face were eaten away and Khan, brilliant as ever, did some
> impromptu facial surgery on his old friend Joaquin, who was so in shock
> afterwards he insisted on being called Joachim. There! ;-)

hee hee
>
> > Regardless, it's a mess.
>
> Yep.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

In article <eZCzj.1637$lU5.392@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio. net>,
"GeneK" <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:

> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote
> > How about 'Picard comes out in time to save his family'
> >
> > Or 'Picard comes out in the nick of time but on the right side of the
> > forcefield'
> >
> > Or 'Picard comes out ANYWHERE but where and when he did'
>
> Paris. The day he stood up his girlfriend. He marries her and
> changes careers.
>
> GeneK

works for me

How about at that duel where he gets stuck in the heart and he screws it
up so badly he doesn't survive?

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

In article <c%Czj.1638$lU5.474@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio. net>,
"GeneK" <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:

> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote in message news:ANIM8Rfsk-
> > But Mark Tobin was a black haired adult. Regardless, it's a mess.
>
> But on an "mess" scale from 0-10 where 0 is perfect
> and 10 is "Nemesis," it registers about 0.01. Right at
> the same level as Kirk calling Kyle "Kowel."
>
> GeneK

The name business, yes. Having people stuck on Ceti Alpha who would
have been children at the time of Space Seed is a little more unpleasant.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

"Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote in message
news:47cf0c1e$0$21856$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
> Is Nemesis the worst TNG movie?

It's really hard to choose which of the TNG movies
I think is the worst. If not for the Data/B2 stupidity,
"Nemesis" would be in a dead heat with "Generations"
and "Insurrection." I'd even watch STV over any
of these.

GeneK

"George Peatty" <peattyg47-1230@copper.net> wrote in message
news:dr4us35fq8hifrlqo2ivvbo36nt2m3ep23@4ax.com...
> Nemesis is my favorite of the ten movies, largely because of the climactic
> battle sequence, and the ending. I don't think much of Shinzon as a
> villain, saw no story-internal reason why he had to be a Picard clone, and
> no story-internal reason for the Tal Shi'ar to abandon their attempt to
> infiltrate Starfleet, and I thought the movie was way too dark, both
> physically and emotionally. But, the Scimitar was one bad-*** warship,
> and
> as TMP was a remake of "The Changeling", I thought Nemesis was a remake of
> "Balance of Terror" The TWOK similarities never occurred to me until
> someone here pointed them out ..

With all respect, and this is not an attack but an observation on Nemesis:

"Climactic battle sequence"???? o_O

Nemesis had the most ANTI-climactic battle sequence ever filmed for a Trek
movie. The Scimitar takes SO long to activate it's weapon, you KNOW the
Enterprise crew will foil it. The Enterprise rams the Scimitar...yet
neither of them have any inertial movement in zero-G space. The Enterprise
pulls away from the impact zone, again with no inertial movement.

The ramming scene is done in such slow motion you can leave the theater, go
visit your mother-in-law, write the next Great American Novel, go to the
bathroom to float a biscuit and then come back...and the scene will STILL be
on the screen. Not even an evacuation scene of the decks expected to be
damaged. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Add in your concern for the Enterprise
E - ZERO, because they never bothered to introduce viewers to the ship at
the same level that they did for the refitted Enterprise - and you get
SNORE. "Oh, the E-E is going to get damaged?! Big deal, someone grab the
duct tape and a staple gun."

The entire scene is the most boring "battle" sequence I've ever seen. Also
remember to factor in Shinzon, Picard's 'Nemesis'...only met once. Oooh,
such a threat that we have waited YEARS for Picard to deal with this heavy
'nemesis'. "Nemesis" is Khan, not a individual we meet for the first time
just a few hours before he seems to be doing something you do not like.

Main Entry: nem·e·sis
Pronunciation: \'ne-m?-s?s\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from Greek
Date: 1561
1capitalized : the Greek goddess of retributive justice
2plural nem·e·ses \-?sez\ a: one that inflicts retribution or vengeance b:
a formidable and usually victorious rival or opponent
3plural nem·eses a: an act or effect of retribution b: bane 2

Shinzon might have been the 'nemesis' of the Romulans, to whom his anger was
directed towards in retribution of the treatment of his people, but Picard?
At no time did the plot adequately explain why Shinzon should be the
'nemesis' of Picard. If it did, it had so many plot holes you could have
driven a Borg cube squadron right through it.

Nemesis = Failure

Snake wrote:
> "George Peatty" <peattyg47-1230@copper.net> wrote in message
> news:dr4us35fq8hifrlqo2ivvbo36nt2m3ep23@4ax.com...
>> Nemesis is my favorite of the ten movies, largely because of the
>> climactic battle sequence, and the ending. I don't think much of
>> Shinzon as a villain, saw no story-internal reason why he had to be
>> a Picard clone, and no story-internal reason for the Tal Shi'ar to
>> abandon their attempt to infiltrate Starfleet, and I thought the
>> movie was way too dark, both physically and emotionally. But, the
>> Scimitar was one bad-*** warship, and
>> as TMP was a remake of "The Changeling", I thought Nemesis was a
>> remake of "Balance of Terror" The TWOK similarities never occurred
>> to me until someone here pointed them out ..
>
> With all respect, and this is not an attack but an observation on
> Nemesis:
>
> "Climactic battle sequence"???? o_O
>
> Nemesis had the most ANTI-climactic battle sequence ever filmed for a
> Trek movie. The Scimitar takes SO long to activate it's weapon, you
> KNOW the Enterprise crew will foil it. The Enterprise rams the
> Scimitar...yet neither of them have any inertial movement in zero-G
> space. The Enterprise pulls away from the impact zone, again with no
> inertial movement.
>
> The ramming scene is done in such slow motion you can leave the
> theater, go visit your mother-in-law, write the next Great American
> Novel, go to the bathroom to float a biscuit and then come back...and
> the scene will STILL be on the screen. Not even an evacuation scene
> of the decks expected to be damaged. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Add in
> your concern for the Enterprise
> E - ZERO, because they never bothered to introduce viewers to the
> ship at the same level that they did for the refitted Enterprise -
> and you get SNORE. "Oh, the E-E is going to get damaged?! Big deal,
> someone grab the duct tape and a staple gun."
>

I actually rather like the ramming sequence, I find it quite dramatic and
impressive. What fills me with despair is the script surrounding it,
especially dufus Picard as you realise he has no plan after the ramming.

And how many injuries and deaths were there on the Enterprise? Once again,
the script is written as if there is no crew beyond the Bridge.

What the hell is everybody else on the ship doing during these battle
scenes? Watching through the windows? Playing cards?


Ian

"Kweeg" <kweeg@nospam.shaw.ca> wrote in news:Hzzzj.45242$w94.30259
@pd7urf2no:

> "Wiseguy" <epwise@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A581E72C2B66epwiseyahoocom@66.150.105.47. ..
>> "Snake" <fluidSPAMstates_no+spam@optonline.net> wrote in
>> news:47cdf805$0$5641$607ed4bc@cv.net:
>>
>> > "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote in message
>> > news:ANIM8Rfsk-98E63B.18065203032008@news.west.cox.net...
>> >
>> >> How about, Soran shoots Picard in the back, Kirk clobbers Soran,
>> >> Diana flys the ship into the planet and gets herself and Beverly
>> >> killed.
>> >
>> > I don't know - if Diana can fully get over her fear of ordering
>> > personnel to dangerous missions, I'd bet she'd kick someone's ***
as a
>> > captain.
>> >
>> > Diana: "Hailing frequencies open"
>> > Worf: "Channel open"
>> > Diana: "This is the Federation Starship Enterprise calling unknown
>> > vessel"
>> >
>> > vessel responds:
>> > Unknown: "We mean you no harm"
>> > Diana: "My *** you don't. I can sense you. Worf, kindly blow them
>> > away with a full spread of quantum torpedoes"
>> > Worf: "Torpedoes locked. Firing"
>> > Unknown: "But..."
>> >
>> > BOOM
>> >
>> >
>>
>> It's "Deanna."
>
> ..if ya got nothing to add, pick up the spellin'... oh wait you do
that
> already.... how superior of you, you're so smrt!
>

It's not the spelling...it's a different name pronounced differently.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote...
> The name business, yes. Having people stuck on Ceti Alpha who would
> have been children at the time of Space Seed is a little more unpleasant.

They're genetically engineered, they all aged slower
than normal humans except for Khan, who made the
obvious mistake of getting married.

GeneK

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 17:03:00 -0800, "GeneK"
<gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:


>It's really hard to choose which of the TNG movies
>I think is the worst. If not for the Data/B2 stupidity,
>"Nemesis" would be in a dead heat with "Generations"
>and "Insurrection." I'd even watch STV over any
>of these.

Generations was pretty darned good, until the last 20-30 minutes, when
it totally fell apart. It would have been even better if they'd
actually gotten Nimoy and Kelley for the prologue. And they needed
some other way to damage the Enterprise-D besides Geordi's visor being
used against him (yet again... didn't they learn anything from "Mind's
Eye"?) The emotion chip storyline only sorta works, but it isn't as
bad as B4 in "Nemesis" or Picard and Data singing Gilbert & Sullivan
in "Insurrection".

I really, really like the idea someone mentioned on trekmovie.com,
about instead of Kirk dying, he and Picard defeat Soran and Kirk,
unsure what to do next, decides to go back to the Enterprise-B via his
Nexus-self, walking up behind the stunned (Scotty/Spock and
Chekov/McCoy), acting as if he just barely escaped death from the
Nexus strike and only we the audience know where he's been.

This still has plot faults, of course, like why Picard only goes back
in time a few minutes to stop Soran instead of a few days to grab him
as the array, and the nonsense about Soran needing to be on a planet
to be absorbed by the Nexus (when no one else needed to be.) But all
sci-fi movies have plot holes... these can be forgiven if the rest of
the story works.

The last 20 minutes of "Generations" didn't.

Brian

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 20:05:43 -0500, "Snake"
<fluidSPAMstates_no+spam@optonline.net> wrote:

>"Climactic battle sequence"???? o_O

I'll still take the climactic battle sequence. It puts the Mutaran nebula
sequence in TWOK to shame. All your observations about Nemesis could be
applied equally to that movie as well. The Scimitar destroyed a Romulan
warbird, crippled another and crippled the Enterprise. It had **52**
disruptor banks. That was a bad-*** ship. I'm not trying to persuade you;
just expressing my affection for the last third of that movie ..

Anim8rFSK wrote:
> In article <eZCzj.1637$lU5.392@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio. net>,
> "GeneK" <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:
>
>> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote
>>> How about 'Picard comes out in time to save his family'
>>>
>>> Or 'Picard comes out in the nick of time but on the right side of
>>> the forcefield'
>>>
>>> Or 'Picard comes out ANYWHERE but where and when he did'
>>
>> Paris. The day he stood up his girlfriend. He marries her and
>> changes careers.
>>
>> GeneK
>
> works for me
>
> How about at that duel where he gets stuck in the heart and he screws
> it up so badly he doesn't survive?

Not even Q could fix that one. :-D
Besides the point of that one was that Picard had chosen the right path. At
the brink of death he doubted himself.

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

In article <47cfae66$0$14347$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
"Wouter Valentijn" <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Anim8rFSK wrote:
> > In article <eZCzj.1637$lU5.392@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio. net>,
> > "GeneK" <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net> wrote
> >>> How about 'Picard comes out in time to save his family'
> >>>
> >>> Or 'Picard comes out in the nick of time but on the right side of
> >>> the forcefield'
> >>>
> >>> Or 'Picard comes out ANYWHERE but where and when he did'
> >>
> >> Paris. The day he stood up his girlfriend. He marries her and
> >> changes careers.
> >>
> >> GeneK
> >
> > works for me
> >
> > How about at that duel where he gets stuck in the heart and he screws
> > it up so badly he doesn't survive?
>
> Not even Q could fix that one. :-D
> Besides the point of that one was that Picard had chosen the right path. At
> the brink of death he doubted himself.

Given Picard's history, he has plenty of reason to doubt himself.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.
http://www.disneysub.com/board/noshat.jpg

GeneK wrote:
> "Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote...
>
>> We now have "closure" on the Kirk character. We know he ended his
>> days in his dotage happily with Carol. If he were later wanted for a
>> guest spot in another story, there's no problem with that. We've
>> seen our hero "ride into the sunset" after his last adventure,
>> leaving all us fans with a warm glowy feeling inside. The Nexus plot
>> has significance as it gave Kirk the chance to see the error of a
>> decision, and go back and fix it. And the internet didn't really exist
>> much as a mass medium when
>> Generations came out, but if this ending had been filmed it would
>> still be a great source of discussion about which timeline is "real"
>> (Kirk in his dotage, or Kirk killed on the Enterprise B). (The
>> answer is, the latter. Kirk's happy old age was "always" the past of
>> TNG, as evinced by "Relics". The Ent-B death "never happened". It's
>> a paradox! w00t)
>
> It would have been a better ending for the character of Kirk, but
> it wouldn't have made the movie any better. It wouldn't have
> dealt with the awful photorp issue you cited, or why Picard didn't
> choose to exit the Nexus and go back to the E-D at Amargosa
> and have Soran thrown into the brig on sight and the station
> searched for secret rooms, or why nobody checked LaForge's
> visor for enemy transmissions even though that trick was already
> pulled on them the last time LaForge was abducted by an enemy.
>
> My alternate ending is less complicated. When Picard explains
> the situation to Kirk, Kirk says, "you can leave this place and go
> back in time and you want to go to a moment when there'll be
> only seconds to defeat an armed enemy? Go back three days
> earlier and clap the sonuvabitch in the brig on your ship! WTF
> are they teaching in Starfleet Academy these days?" Then Kirk
> exits the Nexus and comes up behind Scotty and Chekov as
> they're staring out through the hole in the E-B, and on the way
> back to the bridge says he hopes this rescue won't delay their
> return to Earth because Carol hates it when he's home late for
> dinner. They can keep the Idaho cabin scene and just
> loop "Carol" over "Antonia" and delete Kirk's lines about
> going back to Starfleet; let the audience think he was taking
> Carol breakfast in bed after one of their usual fantastic nights
> together, and his "regret" over it is that PIcard has come along
> to ruin what was going to be a fantastic morning.
>
> GeneK

It's been a while since I saw Generations, so forgive me if my memory is a
bit hazy on events and circumstances.
I find myself wondering why Soren needed to go to all that trouble,
destroying star systems just so he could redirect the nexus onto that
planet, thus drawing him back into it.
In the age of warp space travel, why didn't he just rent, steal or buy a
shuttle or small spaceship and fly into it?

I'm sure the scriptwriters must have thought of that too, and that's why I'm
certain I must be forgetting some important plot or story detail.

(not quite so) Fat Sam wrote:
> GeneK wrote:
>> "Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote...

<snip>

> It's been a while since I saw Generations, so forgive me if my memory
> is a bit hazy on events and circumstances.
> I find myself wondering why Soren needed to go to all that trouble,
> destroying star systems just so he could redirect the nexus onto that
> planet, thus drawing him back into it.
> In the age of warp space travel, why didn't he just rent, steal or
> buy a shuttle or small spaceship and fly into it?
>
> I'm sure the scriptwriters must have thought of that too, and that's
> why I'm certain I must be forgetting some important plot or story
> detail.

Ships are heavily damaged or destroyed by the Nexus.
I think he was affraid he would die /before/ he could enter.
All Kirk's fault of course. He was presumed dead because of encountering the
Nexus on a Starship. :-) The Enterprise-B was damaged, but did survive the
ordeal.

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

Wouter Valentijn wrote:
> (not quite so) Fat Sam wrote:
>> GeneK wrote:
>>> "Jaxtraw" <jax@knickersjaxtrawstudios.com> wrote...
>
> <snip>
>
>> It's been a while since I saw Generations, so forgive me if my memory
>> is a bit hazy on events and circumstances.
>> I find myself wondering why Soren needed to go to all that trouble,
>> destroying star systems just so he could redirect the nexus onto that
>> planet, thus drawing him back into it.
>> In the age of warp space travel, why didn't he just rent, steal or
>> buy a shuttle or small spaceship and fly into it?
>>
>> I'm sure the scriptwriters must have thought of that too, and that's
>> why I'm certain I must be forgetting some important plot or story
>> detail.
>
> Ships are heavily damaged or destroyed by the Nexus.
> I think he was affraid he would die /before/ he could enter.
> All Kirk's fault of course. He was presumed dead because of
> encountering the Nexus on a Starship. :-) The Enterprise-B was
> damaged, but did survive the ordeal.

If we even presume it to be "true" within the flim's universe, there are
still easier ways to enter the nexus. Most obviously, put on a spacesuit and
be beamed into space in the path of the nexus. There's no ship to blow up
around you then. If for some bizarre reason the mere presence of the
breathing apparatus technology counts as a "spaceship", get a big inflatable
ball of air and hang around in that.

The onl