Well, as I'm sure almost everybody knows by now, 8.12 contained a huge
revelation. It's shocking and amazing and everybody should be talking
about it... but strangely they aren't. What am I referring to?

Yes. Mr Gordo survived the ruin of Sunnydale!

I don't know if he was on the school bus as they escaped the
destruction of the Hellmouth... or whether Buffy went back to rescue
him afterwards. Or maybe the brave little fellow manage to get out by
himself, which is no mean achievement when you're an inanimate stuffed
pig. But there he is, lying on the floor of Buffy's bedroom, large as
life.

Well, unless that's a substitute stuffed pig. Mr Gordo the Second. But
I'm not going to believe that! I'm not!

Oh yeah, a few other things did happen in this issue too... I'll take
them more or less thematically rather than in strict chronological
order.

Renee and Xander finally make their relationship official after 11
issues of flirting. It's notable that she is the one taking the
initiative; I wonder if she's got a little fed up with Xander finding
excuses to spend time with her (it was 'sparring partners' back in 'No
Future For You', here it's helping her with guard duty) and wants an
actual romantic date. That's backed up at the scene at the end where
she's frustrated with them going on a mission in a helicopter together
rather than something more hearts-and-flowery.

Of course, there's also the sinister interpretation - if she's a
traitor and wants to get close to Xander, she obviously needs to push
the agenda along. There's nothing I spotted in this issue to actually
support the betrayal theory, but nothing to contradict it either... We
do see that Renee is still feeling a little sensitive over the zombie
attack in 'The Long Way Home', blaming herself for not sounding the
alarm sooner.

Xander seems quite upfront about being attracted to Renee - almost to
the point of being weird about it. (Seriously, do you tell your
not-quite-maybe-girlfriend that you have fantasies about her and three
other women, one of whom is her boss?)Given his past experience and
history, it's possible he's gunshy over getting into a serious
relationship with anyone again, and is flirting defensively and needs
to be pushed.

There's also the fact that Renee in effect works for him, so there's a
potential imbalance of power situation here. Clearly not enough to
make him turn her down, but perhaps enough for him to hesitate until
he's sure it's her choice and not something she feels pressured into.
I don't know if this interpretation is valid - there's nothing in the
text to support it directly - but it might be something the writers
had in the back of their minds when setting up the arc. Or not.

Which brings us nicely to the other big development of this issue:
Buffy and Satsu. I have to say, my immediate reaction to seeing that
page (you know the one) was "Oh my God, I don't believe Joss actually
went there!" Not because I don't think it's in character or flows
logically from the preceding story, because I think it does... but
because I thought he'd be playing around with subtext and hints for a
lot longer. Clearly not. At this point, I'd like to quote the review
of the last issue I wrote a month ago:

I don't know where they're heading with all this... but I can see
Buffy almost falling into a relationship with Satsu by accident:
because she's lonely, and feeling isolated from everybody except the
other Slayers; and she likes Satsu and appreciates her supportiveness
and is flattered by the attention; and while she's got no sexual
interest in her she's not squicked by the idea either; and she feels
guilty for not giving Satsu what she wants when Satsu does so much for
Buffy... Someone should write the fic.

Well, you don't need to write the fic now, because Drew Goddard just
made it canon. :-)

In the 24 hours or so between the news of this going public and me
writing this review, I've already seen a lot of analyses of what Buffy
is thinking in this scene, and what her motivations are. And so, of
course, I'm going to throw in my own...

First, she clearly enjoyed herself. Even more than the opening scene
("Wow. That was... that was... wow.") it's the bit where she says
she'll be thinking about tonight and blushing and smiling all the next
day that brings it home. (And there's the call-back to 'The Long Way
Home' and her remarks about it being a slow year and missing that
sex).

Her panic about not doing it right, being out of her depth, was very
cute and felt true-to-life. Especially the way she completely forgot
Satsu's original question. However, there are a couple of hints here
beyond her actual words that Buffy's not exactly hopped the gay train.
First, there's the way she's thinking in terms of instruction manuals
and being graded on her performance; it implies she wasn't swept along
on a wave of lust, she was doing what she thought she was supposed to
do in this situation. And secondly, there's her comment about "you did
more things than me" which has the same implication: it suggests that
Satsu was carried away on that wave of lust I was talking about, and
was enthusiastic and really into it in a way that Buffy wasn't. It all
sounds very much true to life, the sort of thing that does happen when
a basically gay person sleeps with a basically straight one.

A lot of people have taken the attitude that Buffy is using Satsu;
that she doesn't love her and is merely taking advantage of her
feelings. Comparisons to Spike in Season 6 have been made. However,
having now read the comic a couple of times, I'm not sure of that
interpretation. I think Buffy is more confused and mixed up than a
bald "she's using her" might imply. Take the way she doesn't want
Satsu to leave. Her speech about this "not going any further" is
prefaced with "I don't know" and "I'm not sure". She doesn't seem to
have had an "I'm recently gay" revelation (we can tell that even if
Joss hadn't said the same thing in his interview for the New York
Times)so she's working from the basic assumption that she and Satsu
aren't going to be having a serious relationship - but she also cares
deeply about her and doesn't want her to get hurt.

Which makes me wonder how exactly they ended up in bed in the first
place. I doubt we'll be told, unfortunately - although judging but the
clothes and underwear (and stuffed pig) strewn about the floor, it
looks like it was a spontaneous and hasty sort of decision. :-)

Finally, Buffy seems to be maintaining her habit of secrecy about her
relationships... although in this case I suspect it's because of the
hassle that would be caused if it became known that one of the Slayers
was sleeping with the boss, not to mention that perhaps Buffy isn't
sure she wants to commit herself to anything public and permanent. Of
course, this secrecy is immediately blown out of the water in a very
funny sequence (that I'll come back to later.)

As for Satsu, it seems to me that she went into this in the full
awareness that it was likely to be just a one-night stand ("I know
what this is. I know you didn't just... turn gay all of a sudden").
Even so, when she hears Buffy confirm that out loud, she's upset and
downcast and gets up to leave. And she's ever so pleased and grateful
when Buffy asks her to stay until morning. She's clearly in love.

Her comment "And you let me. You were amazing" is also very
significant. It kind of implies to me that Satsu has been thinking
about sex with Buffy for a long time now, but assumed it would never
happen... until tonight, when all her fantasies came true. And she's
very grateful to Buffy for making that possible... but further down
the line, I suspect she might be feeling guilty for using Buffy for
sexual gratification when she knew Buffy herself wasn't really into
it. And maybe she'll even feel guilty for using Buffy's emotional
dependency on her and desire not to hurt her as tools to manipulate
her into bed... Just speculation, but Joss's interview did mention
that Satsu might regret this evening, and that's a possible reason
why.

Her comment about the instruction manuals was funny. I suspect she's
speaking from first-hand experience; and I do wonder, based on how
Satsu was depicted in the early episodes as shy, reserved and formal,
and how the Slayer spell brought her, specifically, "connection" (as
shown in the flashback in #11), whether those manuals are her only
experience and Buffy is her first lover. Which adds an added poignancy
to Buffy's not-quite-rejection/not-quite-acceptance of her.

One last point. It is, of course, a cliché that naked couples in bed
will have magic sheets that manage to just cover the important areas,
no matter how they move around. In Castle Slayer, of course, the
sheets might actually be magical... There's certainly one scene where
Satsu has her back to us and is clearly uncovered to the waist, but
when we see her again from the side the sheet has crept up to cover
her chest without her apparent intervention. :-) At this stage in this
sort of discussion, it's also standard to question why a couple who've
just had hot, sweaty passionate sex are being so prudish and covering
themselves up with sheets in the first place... In this case, I think
it's actually a neat bit of characterisation. Buffy is deliberately
and obviously holding the sheet over her breasts in several scenes;
but Satsu doesn't bother. Clearly they have different comfort factors
about what's going on here. (Then again, Buffy has always been fairly
modest about showing her body, at least since she left high school.)

Now the French farce scene as everybody for a 10 mile radius comes
into Buffy's bedroom. This is really funny; I particularly like the
bit where Buffy dives out of bed onto the floor in order to hide from
Renee, while Satsu blushes furiously. And poor Buffy keeps ordering
people out of her room, but instead more and more come in... you'd
think they'd at least knock. (But then again, in 'The Long Way home'
everybody just burst into her room when Amy attacked too, so it's
consistent).

I've seen various comments around that many of the people who do see
the happy couple look disapproving or angry. That's not really the
vibe I got, to be honest; I think most of them are just stunned. Dawn
is the one who seems most agitated, but then again being shocked and
embarrassed by a sister's antics is traditional. Andrew's reaction is
perfectly in character for him... and Willow's "I think we're under
attack... why are you naked in bed with Satsu?" was also a classic.

Again, people have been ascribing all kinds of emotions to her here,
but what I get is mostly stunned disbelief, and perhaps some hurt.
After all, Willow is probably the person who's known Buffy more
closely for longer than anyone else, with the possible exception of
Dawn depending on when you count from. I get the impression that this
comes completely out of nowhere for her (and I find it hard to believe
that in the 5+ years since Willow came out that she hasn't discussed
questions of sexuality with her best friend) and she's reeling in
incredulity. Not to mention upset that Buffy hasn't talked to her
about it - remember her reaction to finding out about Spike and Buffy
in 'Seeing Red' - although in the circumstances she possibly blames
herself for putting the distance between them.

I'm hoping that we see various characters discussing the news in
Buffy's absence in the next issue...

Anyway, onto the (nominal) A-plot.

There are, of course, no wild wolves in Scotland anymore, and haven't
been for centuries. Either Drew Goddard doesn't know that, or it's a
subtle bit of characterisation to show that Renee is not a native to
Britain, despite her defence of Scottish civilisation later. I'll
leave you to judge... We're never told why Andrew is coming to Castle
Slayer, although I suspect it's because of the Simone situation we
found out about last time. And the fact that poor Dawn is forced to
sleep in a barn, with her feet sticking out, is perhaps a reminder as
to just how miserable her new life is.

So far we know the names of two of the 'Japanese vampire goth gang' -
Kumiko (the woman dressed as Baron Samedi who can fly) and Raidon (the
one who turns into a panther and escapes with the Scythe). I assume
the one who first takes the Scythe and punches Buffy is the leader;
he's clearly both strong and powerful. Whether they're working for
themselves or are in league with Twilight is so far unknown.

It was nice to see that Willow wasn't kidnapped again... I'm assuming
what happened is that Kumiko somehow cancelled her flying spell,
sending her plummeting down through the roof. The fact that Willow was
dusting herself off and acting fine after such a brutal fall suggests
that her magical self-healing or protection powers were still in full
working order, however...

If the castle is in Scotland why didn't the sign on the door say
'Armoury', hmm? Unless Buffy had it fitted after she moved in, not
from the original owners of the castle (whoever they were). Notice
that even though she's been caught in an incredibly embarrassing
situation, Buffy immediately takes charge once she knows they're under
attack. That's our Buffy... (Her Eeyore pyjamas and UC Sunnydale
crop-top are also quite in character).

I note that Buffy talks about the Scythe as hers, specifically. Faith
agreed that it should belong to 'the Slayer in charge', but I've
always thought of it as belonging to the Slayer line as a whole. The
battle scene in 'Chosen' where it was being passed around from hand to
hand reinforced that idea beautifully - so for Buffy to be so
possessive about it now it slightly disturbing. Is she becoming even
more isolated and elitist? Surely not... In this context, it will be
interesting to see what happens if and when she meets Melaka Fray with
another Scythe of her very own...

Why do the vampires want the Scythe? Buffy immediately talks about the
spell, which implies that somehow the Scythe could be used to
de-activate all the other Slayers. I don't know if that's her guess,
or an actual fact... if true, it implies that the other girls are not
"real Slayers" but only Potentials given a temporary taste of power by
magic. That would be... quite disturbing symbolically, actually. I
wonder if they'll go there?

Nice to see Leah and Rowena again. It's been a while.

Then there's the realisation about who might be able to give them
advice. Xander's reaction was quite fun - was anyone else reminded of
the final page of 'The Long Way Home'? And we learn that Xander knows
how to pilot a helicopter. That's pretty impressive, actually; they're
even harder to fly than normal aircraft.

Did they fly all the way to Transylvania? Or does Dracula live
somewhere else now? I notice that his castle apparently has a
helicopter landing pad... And of course there's the continuity to
episode 5.01 with Xander acting as Renfield... and also to the comic
story 'Antiquity', which is now available for free online just so we
know what's happened before. I know that the comic has been criticised
for implausibility - the idea that Buffy would leave Xander with
Dracula for months seems incredible, unless she genuinely didn't know
where he was. Or, of course, if he was sending her regular letters
telling her how he was doing fine, and the strange European nobleman
he was staying with was a nice chap, if a little eccentric... Still,
we'll see how much of the story Drew uses.

And one last thing. If the next issue starts with Dracula standing in
the doorway and inviting Xander and Renee to "Enter freely and of your
own will" I'll be insanely happy. :-)

So. Brian Lynch, the eyes of fandom are upon you. After Buffy and
Satsu, it's clearly Spike and Angel's turn now...


Stephen

In article <vbd0t35b8p0avf15n471457kneeka1na72@4ax.com>,
Stephen Tempest <stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:


> Yes. Mr Gordo survived the ruin of Sunnydale!
>
> I don't know if he was on the school bus as they escaped the
> destruction of the Hellmouth... or whether Buffy went back to rescue
> him afterwards. Or maybe the brave little fellow manage to get out by
> himself, which is no mean achievement when you're an inanimate stuffed
> pig. But there he is, lying on the floor of Buffy's bedroom, large as
> life.

Krissy's story about how Mr. Gordo escaped from the ruins of Sunnydale:

<http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/Fics/Reunite.html>

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

On Mar 6, 12:19 pm, Stephen Tempest <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
> Well, as I'm sure almost everybody knows by now, 8.12 contained a huge
> revelation. It's shocking and amazing and everybody should be talking
> about it... but strangely they aren't. What am I referring to?
>
> Yes. Mr Gordo survived the ruin of Sunnydale!
>
> I don't know if he was on the school bus as they escaped the
> destruction of the Hellmouth... or whether Buffy went back to rescue
> him afterwards. Or maybe the brave little fellow manage to get out by
> himself, which is no mean achievement when you're an inanimate stuffed
> pig. But there he is, lying on the floor of Buffy's bedroom, large as
> life.
>
> Well, unless that's a substitute stuffed pig. Mr Gordo the Second. But
> I'm not going to believe that! I'm not!
>
> Oh yeah, a few other things did happen in this issue too... I'll take
> them more or less thematically rather than in strict chronological
> order.
>
> Renee and Xander finally make their relationship official after 11
> issues of flirting.

And it's a long time in comics. I was realizing that we've been
reading this thing for a year now. And we've just now had the
characters who were attracted in the first issue start dating. It's
part of the comic format, I suppose.

Some people I geuss have issues with TV characters getting involved
with comic characters (I feel like a _Cool World_ joke might fit here,
but since I haven't actually seen it...), My issue is more that I
don't have a clue who these people are. It's one of the (many, many)
problems people had with Kennedy when she was a new character
surrounded by people we'd known for so long; both Satsu and Renee were
introduced and have basically been defined almost entirely as love
interests for other characters. Well, technically Satsu was
introduced as one of a few Slayers flipping around, and then moved on
to being defined by her crush on Buffy.

> Which brings us nicely to the other big development of this issue:
> Buffy and Satsu.

As usual, every Xander/Renee scene ends on a line that sets the stage
for a Buffy/Satsu scene.

> However, there are a couple of hints here
> beyond her actual words that Buffy's not exactly hopped the gay train.
> First, there's the way she's thinking in terms of instruction manuals
> and being graded on her performance; it implies she wasn't swept along
> on a wave of lust, she was doing what she thought she was supposed to
> do in this situation. And secondly, there's her comment about "you did
> more things than me" which has the same implication: it suggests that
> Satsu was carried away on that wave of lust I was talking about, and
> was enthusiastic and really into it in a way that Buffy wasn't. It all
> sounds very much true to life, the sort of thing that does happen when
> a basically gay person sleeps with a basically straight one.

If only there were an easily understood sexual orientation label to
describe people who can enjoy sex with either a man or a woman.

I haven't read what Joss has said about it, but seeing the way it was
played as a Major Event smacks of sensationalism to me, especially
playing it as a one-time thing. Didn't care for it, overall, although
no strong feelings. It doesn't help that I had to stare at the page
for a few minutes to try to confirm that I was correctly guessing
which characters it was before finally shrugging and moving on. I
will say that Buffy (remember her busy childhood and the fact that
we're aging faster than she is) is still in a reasonable age range to
be experimenting sexually and figuring out what does and doesn't work
for her. Several people in the comments on LJ have been comparing it
to _Torchwood_, which basically uses bi rather than hetero as the
default baseline (and it's not so wrong). Of course, all the non-
mystical gay sex in _Buffy_ is F/F instead of all being M/M.

> A lot of people have taken the attitude that Buffy is using Satsu;
> that she doesn't love her and is merely taking advantage of her
> feelings. Comparisons to Spike in Season 6 have been made. However,
> having now read the comic a couple of times, I'm not sure of that
> interpretation. I think Buffy is more confused and mixed up than a
> bald "she's using her" might imply. Take the way she doesn't want
> Satsu to leave. Her speech about this "not going any further" is
> prefaced with "I don't know" and "I'm not sure".

So what? She was confused and mixed up in Season Six, not someone who
set out to use and hurt her murderous pure-evil lover. Particularly
given her behavior towards Spike post-AYW, is it so unreasonable for
fans to expect Buffy to be reluctant to **** people she knows she
doesn't love?

> Now the French farce scene as everybody for a 10 mile radius comes
> into Buffy's bedroom. This is really funny; I particularly like the
> bit where Buffy dives out of bed onto the floor in order to hide from
> Renee, while Satsu blushes furiously. And poor Buffy keeps ordering
> people out of her room, but instead more and more come in... you'd
> think they'd at least knock.

Ugh. Allegedly broken sense of humor and all that, but that was a
really annoying sequence. It's a predictable joke that has to be
handled deftly to avoid being loud, clanging, and repetitious. It
feels tasteless, like the kind of joke you'd see on _Cordy!_ (On a
side note, seen the Marx Brothers' _A Night At The Opera_? That has
for me the definitive example of a cramming-people-into-a-room
joke.)

> Anyway, onto the (nominal) A-plot.
>
> There are, of course, no wild wolves in Scotland anymore, and haven't
> been for centuries. Either Drew Goddard doesn't know that, or it's a
> subtle bit of characterisation to show that Renee is not a native to
> Britain, despite her defence of Scottish civilisation later.

I thought there had to been an attempt at humor in having a character
kick things off by ponderously intoning the presumably metaphorical
title of the arc in a literal sense. It feels very clunky to me,
suggesting that the point is to parody the device rather than to use
it, but without film, it's hard to say for certain. The "primitive
society" bit is the best line of the issue.

> Did they fly all the way to Transylvania? Or does Dracula live
> somewhere else now? I notice that his castle apparently has a
> helicopter landing pad... And of course there's the continuity to
> episode 5.01 with Xander acting as Renfield... and also to the comic
> story 'Antiquity', which is now available for free online just so we
> know what's happened before. I know that the comic has been criticised
> for implausibility - the idea that Buffy would leave Xander with
> Dracula for months seems incredible, unless she genuinely didn't know
> where he was. Or, of course, if he was sending her regular letters
> telling her how he was doing fine, and the strange European nobleman
> he was staying with was a nice chap, if a little eccentric... Still,
> we'll see how much of the story Drew uses.

Not having read "Antiquity," my main reaction was wondering what would
possess someone to think that bringing back Dracula would make for an
interesting BTVS story.

If I were rating individual issues (or comics at all), this would be a
Weak. I'd write more, but no one likes excess grumpiness. After
those last two issues, I'm not especially interested in keeping up
with this comic. The magic is gone, or something. I'll pick up ATF5,
I guess, but haven't decided whether to keep reading S8.

-AOQ

I have a list of complaints I'm refraining from devoting time and
effort to writing about, but I do think it's worth mentioning that the
way Jeanty draws Buffy (and everyone and everything else, but Buffy
more so) still annoys me. It's bad enough to take me out of the
story, with great frequency. For an example, see the mist-punch
panel.

-AOQ

> I don't know if he was on the school bus as they escaped the
> destruction of the Hellmouth... or whether Buffy went back to rescue

i always pictured andrew and anya cleaning out the mall
and leaving some trucks parked on the outskirts of town

> Xander seems quite upfront about being attracted to Renee - almost to
> the point of being weird about it. (Seriously, do you tell your
> not-quite-maybe-girlfriend that you have fantasies about her and three
> other women, one of whom is her boss?)Given his past experience and

and do you discuss safety words on the first or second date

they should get him a telescope
because binoculars arent going to do him a lot of good

> In the 24 hours or so between the news of this going public and me
> writing this review, I've already seen a lot of analyses of what Buffy

i dont watch that kind of news (nothing about it on bbc)
so i turned the page and
what
then
is this another dream sequence

> Now the French farce scene as everybody for a 10 mile radius comes
> into Buffy's bedroom. This is really funny; I particularly like the

typical of the series
in the middle of deep emotional moment
make jokes
as buffys inner confusion matches the outer confusion

> Britain, despite her defence of Scottish civilisation later. I'll
> leave you to judge... We're never told why Andrew is coming to Castle
> Slayer, although I suspect it's because of the Simone situation we

hey maybe willow thought buffy needed some companionship
and andrew was one of the few available males

> So far we know the names of two of the 'Japanese vampire goth gang' -
> Kumiko (the woman dressed as Baron Samedi who can fly) and Raidon (the
> one who turns into a panther and escapes with the Scythe). I assume
> the one who first takes the Scythe and punches Buffy is the leader;
> he's clearly both strong and powerful. Whether they're working for
> themselves or are in league with Twilight is so far unknown.

> I note that Buffy talks about the Scythe as hers, specifically. Faith

perhaps not hers in the sense of her personal property
but more it belongs to a slayer rather than a vampire

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

> Well, as I'm sure almost everybody knows by now, 8.12 contained a huge
> revelation.

Ur comic costs more d'ur DVDs. :+(

In article <fqsddq$8nu$1@news.albasani.net>, tbd <tbd@invalide.fr> wrote:

> > Well, as I'm sure almost everybody knows by now, 8.12 contained a huge
> > revelation.
>
> Ur comic costs more d'ur DVDs. :+(
>

i didnt know iraq was making comics and dvds

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

On Mar 6, 8:02 pm, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Not having read "Antiquity," my main reaction was wondering what would
> possess someone to think that bringing back Dracula would make for an
> interesting BTVS story.

Having read "Antiquity" when it ran in "Tales of the Vampires," my
main reaction was annoyance that they were making that piece of silly
fluff canon. There are also the aforementioned logistical problems.
Xander was with Drac for a YEAR. Which means, if S8 is taking place
only about a year and a half after S7 (which is hosed by some of the
pop culture references, mainly from the Faith arc, but that's another
rant that others have made elsewhere), that Xander somehow became
Drac's manservant almost immediately after "Chosen" and has only been
back with the slayers for about 6 months. Well, Joss has shown in the
past that he will sacrifice almost anything for something he thinks is
funny. Characterization, continuity, plausibility, all right out the
window so we can have Oz and Xander fall idiotically from the
ceiling. Goddard, meanwhile, is a known supplier of continuity-porn.
Since, in this case, it's his own continuity, it's a kind of writerly
masturbation. Oh well, at least it's not Christopher Golden sticking
in characters and references from his hacky Buffy novels.

> If I were rating individual issues (or comics at all), this would be a
> Weak. I'd write more, but no one likes excess grumpiness.

Are you kidding? It's practically what the Internets are for.

-- Mike Zeares

mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> writes:

>> In the 24 hours or so between the news of this going public and me
>> writing this review, I've already seen a lot of analyses of what Buffy
>
>i dont watch that kind of news (nothing about it on bbc)

It was in the New York Times, actually. :-)

Stephen

In article <fdd5t3d995j69i8famsrsflo7dit31fpuv@4ax.com>,
Stephen Tempest <stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> In the 24 hours or so between the news of this going public and me
> >> writing this review, I've already seen a lot of analyses of what Buffy
> >
> >i dont watch that kind of news (nothing about it on bbc)
>
> It was in the New York Times, actually. :-)

i dont read newspapers from out east

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

Stephen Tempest <stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Well, as I'm sure almost everybody knows by now, 8.12 contained a huge
> revelation. It's shocking and amazing and everybody should be talking
> about it... but strangely they aren't. What am I referring to?
>
> Yes. Mr Gordo survived the ruin of Sunnydale!

Mr. Gordo RULES!

(However, I think this particular pig is actually a replacement Mr. Gordo,
as he's a lot bigger than the TV version. To confirm this I watched his
debut in What's My Line Pt. 1. The petite Mr. Gordo there practically
disappears in Angel's hands.)

> Xander seems quite upfront about being attracted to Renee - almost to
> the point of being weird about it. (Seriously, do you tell your
> not-quite-maybe-girlfriend that you have fantasies about her and three
> other women, one of whom is her boss?)

Maybe that was supposed to be a stage-style aside, inaudible to anyone
except Xander and the audience. Note that Renee is not in this panel,
while she's in every other one in this exchange. (Similarly, his dream
talk later is not meant for real Renee's ears, just dream-Renee's ears.)
Anyway, it's nice that Xander, formerly one of the main characters in the
Buffyverse, finally shows hints of something in his life beyond loyal
sidekickhood. But alas, not every Xander development in this issue is so
encouraging....

I think they missed a good joke opportunity when one-eyed Xander was
looking through binoculars. Maybe they were afraid of offending the
monocular community.

> Which brings us nicely to the other big development of this issue:
> Buffy and Satsu.

I remained happily unspoiled about this until the evening before the issue
came out. Then someone on an unrelated forum posted a question about it,
without any spoiler warning, under an irresistable subject line along the
lines of "Question for Buffy fans." Sigh. No matter how many precautions
you take, you're still always at risk for spoilers whenever you go online.

Anyway.... I haven't read any discussion beyond this thread and the first
dozen or so posts on Whedonesque, but I gather there's been some
controversy. I guess it's natural that the Satsu sitch would strike some
people as just a ratings-grubbing stunt, but *I* don't think it is; and
more important, it doesn't matter to me. You could look at Hush as a
stunt, or, perhpas more to the point, Innocence. It's not the motive for
the plot development that matters, it's how well it works: how well it
fits with the established characters and mythology, and how interesting
the story they tell with it is. On the latter point, it's really unlikely
this situation will match Angel losing his soul. But I'm willing to give
it time to become good enough to overcome its stuntiness. I'll be
particularly interested to see how Willow's reaction develops over time.

> Now the French farce scene as everybody for a 10 mile radius comes
> into Buffy's bedroom. This is really funny; I particularly like the

I like it. It's just so overblown that I couldn't help but laugh. But
funny as the constantly widening circle of people who have seen Buffy and
Satsu naked is, it's Xander's part that really amuses me. "I wasn't aware
that that we had an alarm for this. But yes, sound the alarm." Why does
he call his eye "beautiful"? Because it's the only one he has left? Or
because it gave him such a wonderful, if forbidden, sight?

> I've seen various comments around that many of the people who do see
> the happy couple look disapproving or angry. That's not really the
> vibe I got, to be honest; I think most of them are just stunned.

Agreed about thelooks being stunned, not disapproving. I like the trio of
panels where Xander and Renee are trying not to look at the bed while
Andrew placidly greets Buffy and the naked Asian girl.

> If the castle is in Scotland why didn't the sign on the door say
> 'Armoury', hmm?

Obviously the sign was painted by cheap foreign workers. Come to think of
it, when fixing up the castle Buffy probably had the Slayers do as much as
possible. That would keep their secrets within the group -- not to
mention giving all those youthful superheroes something to do to keep them
busy and out of trouble.

> helicopter landing pad... And of course there's the continuity to
> episode 5.01 with Xander acting as Renfield... and also to the comic
> story 'Antiquity', which is now available for free online just so we
> know what's happened before. I know that the comic has been criticised
> for implausibility - the idea that Buffy would leave Xander with
> Dracula for months seems incredible, unless she genuinely didn't know
> where he was. Or, of course, if he was sending her regular letters
> telling her how he was doing fine, and the strange European nobleman
> he was staying with was a nice chap, if a little eccentric... Still,
> we'll see how much of the story Drew uses.

Bleah. I fully agree with Mike Z's annoyance here. The story "Antiquity"
just doesn't fit well in the timeline. And worse, it dials up the Xander
butt-monkeydom to 11, if indeed not 12 or 13. So much for the fleeting
pleasure of having Xander become a real character again as his personal
life gets a moment of attention! Now it's back to vacillating between
being Buffy's manservant and Dracula's -- in other words, between being a
one-dimensional character and a joke. And in right in front of his new
love interest, too. Oh, well. I'm willing to wait and see how it
develops, but I strongly suspect that the more attention is paid to
Dracula's thrall over Xander, the less I'm going to like it.

Three random notes:

1. Willow's eye color still bothers me. I still think her eyes on TV were
green, or at least near-green hazel, but the new improved comic versions
just look light brown. I feel bad about complaining, though, as they're
still a lot closer to the TV Willow's eyes than the neon blue ones in the
first printing of #1-4.

2. I liked the panel where Buffy punches the vampire -- it's skewed a bit,
as if the force of Buffy's blow knocked it out of place. (It's probably
been done many times before, but this is the time I noticed.)

3. Buffy's use of the word "kitty" amused me inordinately.

So in the end, my feelings are mixed. The Buffy-Satsu story has
potential, but it might not turn out to be a lot of angst and controversy
and hot girl-on-girl action over ... not very much. Which is still not
that bad. Meanwhile, the Dracula-Xander story is already irritating and
has real potential to get worse. As for the Japanese goth vampires, we
don't know much yet. You know, I don't think I'll be able to make up my
mind about #12 until I see how the rest of the arc plays out.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote in
news:13tc3ohl9tqfkb3@corp.supernews.com:

>I'll be particularly
> interested to see how Willow's reaction develops over time.
>

Just in case anyone is wondering, Willow did not say anything like
"You couldn't have figured that out in High School?" :-)

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:64554e3b-b5d4-4c63-b89a-84efb0c638ef@c33g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>I have a list of complaints I'm refraining from devoting time and
> effort to writing about, but I do think it's worth mentioning that the
> way Jeanty draws Buffy (and everyone and everything else, but Buffy
> more so) still annoys me. It's bad enough to take me out of the
> story, with great frequency. For an example, see the mist-punch
> panel.

Evidently the artist from Fray is supposed to do, I think, 4 issues starting
with 16. Maybe that's something to look forward to. It appears, however,
that Jeanty will remain a big part of the series.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=13259

<chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message news:13tc3ohl9tqfkb3@corp.supernews.com...
> Stephen Tempest <stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>

/some snippage occurs/

> I think they missed a good joke opportunity when one-eyed Xander was
> looking through binoculars. Maybe they were afraid of offending the
> monocular community.

I've got two eyes, but a vision problem makes looking through a set of
binoculars so frustrating that I cut mine in half and use just the one side.
I assume that since Xander can't see through the other side, it doesn't
bother him. Actually, perhaps I *should* assume that the writers simply
didn't think anything of it, since Xander is just a drawing.

>> Which brings us nicely to the other big development of this issue:
>> Buffy and Satsu.

I kept waiting for the expected "it's just a dream" reset. I think this
brings us down to just Giles who hasn't had some sort of gay thing.
Is Joss trying to tell us something? (insert "just kidding" emoticon here)

> I remained happily unspoiled about this until the evening before the issue
> came out. Then someone on an unrelated forum posted a question about it,
> without any spoiler warning, under an irresistable subject line along the
> lines of "Question for Buffy fans." Sigh. No matter how many precautions
> you take, you're still always at risk for spoilers whenever you go online.

I somehow managed tieh willpower to keep from reading this thread
until I picked up the issue yesterday, so I was somewhat stunned to
see the scene. I expected to see Buffy letting Satsu down easy, but, hey,
this works too.

> Anyway.... I haven't read any discussion beyond this thread and the first
> dozen or so posts on Whedonesque, but I gather there's been some
> controversy. I guess it's natural that the Satsu sitch would strike some
> people as just a ratings-grubbing stunt, but *I* don't think it is; and
> more important, it doesn't matter to me. You could look at Hush as a
> stunt, or, perhpas more to the point, Innocence. It's not the motive for
> the plot development that matters, it's how well it works: how well it
> fits with the established characters and mythology, and how interesting
> the story they tell with it is. On the latter point, it's really unlikely
> this situation will match Angel losing his soul. But I'm willing to give
> it time to become good enough to overcome its stuntiness. I'll be
> particularly interested to see how Willow's reaction develops over time.

Willow really hasn't got a leg to stand on, if she's being revved up to be
upset about Buffy not talking to her about it. One, it literally *just happened
just this minute* and two, Willow wasn't immediately forthcoming about her
relationship with Tara. Interestingly, though, Spike AND Faith both sussed
it out before any of Willow's closest friends.

>> Now the French farce scene as everybody for a 10 mile radius comes
>> into Buffy's bedroom. This is really funny; I particularly like the
>
> I like it. It's just so overblown that I couldn't help but laugh. But
> funny as the constantly widening circle of people who have seen Buffy and
> Satsu naked is, it's Xander's part that really amuses me. "I wasn't aware
> that that we had an alarm for this. But yes, sound the alarm."

Xander gets the best lines.
"You could, you know...take me out."
"You want me to assasinate you?"

> 1. Willow's eye color still bothers me. I still think her eyes on TV were
> green, or at least near-green hazel, but the new improved comic versions
> just look light brown. I feel bad about complaining, though, as they're
> still a lot closer to the TV Willow's eyes than the neon blue ones in the
> first printing of #1-4.

In my copy, it looked like everybody but the wolves and Andrew had
the same color brown eyes. I think SMG (or SMP, now) and AH both
have green eyes, and every picture of MT I've seen her eyes seem to be
every color under the rainbow EXCEPT for brown. Most seem to be
blue, though.

--

Kel

drifter wrote:
>
> <chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
> news:13tc3ohl9tqfkb3@corp.supernews.com...
>> Stephen Tempest <stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>
> /some snippage occurs/
>
>> I think they missed a good joke opportunity when one-eyed Xander was
>> looking through binoculars. Maybe they were afraid of offending the
>> monocular community.
>
> I've got two eyes, but a vision problem makes looking through a set of
> binoculars so frustrating that I cut mine in half and use just the one
> side. I assume that since Xander can't see through the other side, it
> doesn't bother him. Actually, perhaps I *should* assume that the
> writers simply didn't think anything of it, since Xander is just a drawing.
>

Or, they just got a quantity discount on the binoculars (and, since
Renee was technically the one on guard duty, I'd think those were the
ones she was issued for the night, rather than Xander's.)

>>> Which brings us nicely to the other big development of this issue:
>>> Buffy and Satsu.
>
> I kept waiting for the expected "it's just a dream" reset. I think this
> brings us down to just Giles who hasn't had some sort of gay thing.

Unless Giles and Ethan...? Oh, gods, now that's going to be stuck in my
brain for hours. *whimper*

>> Anyway.... I haven't read any discussion beyond this thread and the first
>> dozen or so posts on Whedonesque, but I gather there's been some
>> controversy.

Heh. That's kinda like saying that Raquel Welch was a girl.

>> this situation will match Angel losing his soul. But I'm willing to give
>> it time to become good enough to overcome its stuntiness. I'll be
>> particularly interested to see how Willow's reaction develops over time.
>
> Willow really hasn't got a leg to stand on, if she's being revved up to
> be upset about Buffy not talking to her about it.

No, but she probably will be, anyway. For a little while. Until she's
reminded that *she* hasn't been exactly open with Buffy for a while, either.

> One, it literally
> *just happened just this minute*

True, but giving her the benefit of the doubt, *Willow* doesn't know
that. Yet.

>>> Now the French farce scene as everybody for a 10 mile radius comes
>>> into Buffy's bedroom. This is really funny; I particularly like the
>>
>> I like it. It's just so overblown that I couldn't help but laugh. But
>> funny as the constantly widening circle of people who have seen Buffy and
>> Satsu naked is, it's Xander's part that really amuses me. "I wasn't
>> aware
>> that that we had an alarm for this. But yes, sound the alarm."
>
> Xander gets the best lines.
> "You could, you know...take me out."
> "You want me to assasinate you?"

"Oh, my eye. My burning, beautiful eye!" Jeez, you'd think he walked
in on his little sister having a threesome or something... :-)

>
>> 1. Willow's eye color still bothers me. I still think her eyes on TV
>> were green, or at least near-green hazel, but the new improved comic
>> versions just look light brown. I feel bad about complaining, though,
>> as they're still a lot closer to the TV Willow's eyes than the neon
>> blue ones in the first printing of #1-4.
>
> In my copy, it looked like everybody but the wolves and Andrew had the
> same color brown eyes. I think SMG (or SMP, now) and AH both
> have green eyes

Close-up HQ photos show them to be a variation of hazel - green outer
iris and brown inner iris. The way they're being done in the comics now
is probably about as close as they'll get without shooting for much more
photo-realistic artwork. As long as the colorists remember they *aren't
frikkin' blue!*

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

"drifter" <rarely@home.net> writes:

>I kept waiting for the expected "it's just a dream" reset. I think this
>brings us down to just Giles who hasn't had some sort of gay thing.

In their misspent youth, Giles and Ethan were "doing magic together"
and meeting up to "cast spells" which gave them "an incredible high".
You know, just like Willow and Tara in Season 4...
;-)

>Willow really hasn't got a leg to stand on, if she's being revved up to be
>upset about Buffy not talking to her about it. One, it literally *just happened
>just this minute*

Willow doesn't know that. And Willow will remember all those excited,
giggly conversations with Buffy about Angel, and about Parker, and
about Riley, long before anything actually happened between them. I
think she's going to expect that Buffy/Satsu also had a long build-up
time, and that it took a while for Buffy to bring herself to the point
of actually sleeping with her (especially since she's a woman) - and
in all that time, Buffy never once thought to ask the opinion of
someone who's supposed to be her best friend.

Stephen

"drifter" <rarely@home.net> wrote in
news:_59Fj.6$c05.3@newsfe05.lga:

>
> I kept waiting for the expected "it's just a dream" reset. I
> think this brings us down to just Giles who hasn't had some sort
> of gay thing.

Xander hasn't had an actual gay relationship (at least in canon).
Although Larry did think Xander was gay, due to a misinterpretation
of what Xander was talking about in "Phases". And Xander (in a fit
of exasperation over always attracting female demons) did once
suggest to Willow that she turn him gay (in "First Date", Buffy then
pointed out that Xander might then just start attracting male
demons).

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

In article <RaudnTIAHPJ1GnjanZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote:

> "drifter" <rarely@home.net> wrote in
> news:_59Fj.6$c05.3@newsfe05.lga:
>
> >
> > I kept waiting for the expected "it's just a dream" reset. I
> > think this brings us down to just Giles who hasn't had some sort
> > of gay thing.
>
> Xander hasn't had an actual gay relationship (at least in canon).
> Although Larry did think Xander was gay, due to a misinterpretation
> of what Xander was talking about in "Phases". And Xander (in a fit
> of exasperation over always attracting female demons) did once
> suggest to Willow that she turn him gay (in "First Date", Buffy then
> pointed out that Xander might then just start attracting male
> demons).

there was the time xander and spike were sharing an apartment

NANCY Is there anyone here who hasn¹t slept together?
Xander and Spike exchange a look.

arf meow arf - i dont like squishy
i think i hit a wookie on the expressway
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Willow really hasn't got a leg to stand on, if she's being revved up to
>> be upset about Buffy not talking to her about it.
>
> No, but she probably will be, anyway. For a little while. Until she's
> reminded that *she* hasn't been exactly open with Buffy for a while, either.

Plus, logic and fairness go out the window when feelings are concerned.
Buffy and Willow have been best friends for so many years now that
Willow's feelings are bound to be hurt at the sudden revelation of another
Buffy secret. Shades of Entropy!

(Not to mention shades of Innocence. "You'd rather be with some newbie
Slayer than with me.....")

> Close-up HQ photos show them to be a variation of hazel - green outer
> iris and brown inner iris. The way they're being done in the comics now

Upon seeing the abbreviation "HQ," I immediately thought "headquarters."
Cool! So Willow fans have a headquarters, complete with a surveilance
team? Are you guys hiring, by any chance?

As far as shifting eye colors go, I guess we have to take lighting
conditions into account. Sometimes light brown might be the colorist's
way of depicting green/hazel/light blue eyes in dim light.


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Willow really hasn't got a leg to stand on, if she's being revved up to
>>> be upset about Buffy not talking to her about it.
>> No, but she probably will be, anyway. For a little while. Until she's
>> reminded that *she* hasn't been exactly open with Buffy for a while, either.
>
> Plus, logic and fairness go out the window when feelings are concerned.
> Buffy and Willow have been best friends for so many years now that
> Willow's feelings are bound to be hurt at the sudden revelation of another
> Buffy secret. Shades of Entropy!
>
> (Not to mention shades of Innocence. "You'd rather be with some newbie
> Slayer than with me.....")

Y'know, I could see that.

>
>> Close-up HQ photos show them to be a variation of hazel - green outer
>> iris and brown inner iris. The way they're being done in the comics now
>
> Upon seeing the abbreviation "HQ," I immediately thought "headquarters."
> Cool! So Willow fans have a headquarters, complete with a surveilance
> team? Are you guys hiring, by any chance?

Shirley you jest! We have people fighting outside the doors to be next
in line to volunteer...

>
> As far as shifting eye colors go, I guess we have to take lighting
> conditions into account. Sometimes light brown might be the colorist's
> way of depicting green/hazel/light blue eyes in dim light.

Well, sometimes eyes of that color do look different; I've known people
whose eye color changed depending on what the person was wearing, even.

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

Question for Stephen T: are you going to post any more reviews of the
Buffy and Angel comics? I'm not complaining (nor would I have a right to,
given my own drift into lurkerdom lately), but I did enjoy your reviews
and the threads they started here. If you're just sitting at home wracked
by doubt about whether or not you should post your review of BtVS 8.13,
please count this as one vote yes....


--Chris

__________________________________________________ ____________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.

In article <4Mednds5k8_DaI3VnZ2dnUVZ_sqinZ2d@georgewashingtonu niversity>,
chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:

> Question for Stephen T: are you going to post any more reviews of the
> Buffy and Angel comics? I'm not complaining (nor would I have a right to,
> given my own drift into lurkerdom lately), but I did enjoy your reviews
> and the threads they started here. If you're just sitting at home wracked
> by doubt about whether or not you should post your review of BtVS 8.13,
> please count this as one vote yes....

lets me lknow issues are on sale

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

chrisg@removethistoreply.gwu.edu writes:

>Question for Stephen T: are you going to post any more reviews of the
>Buffy and Angel comics?

I can do. In fact, your question immediately made me think "Oh, did I
never post my review of 8.13"? :-)

(It's already written; I posted it to my LiveJournal but clearly
forgot to repost it here.)

Stephen