A reminder: These threads are delicate and toylike.


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
Writer: Drew Goddard
Director: David Solomon

And BTVS gets into itself again. Unlike "Beneath You," this isn't a
small story that summons up a bunch of bigger stuff from the
background. (Although stated that way, that also seems like a
perfectly sound way to construct an episode.) "Selfless" is itself an
inherently complex story whose topic is nothing less than the entire
existence of one of the show's main characters. It's almost as epic
for the viewer as it is for Anya, an endless lifetime of
"selflessness" turned in a truly different direction. I don't know
what a new channel-surfing viewer would think, but by nature, it can't
be fully appreciated without having followed these people and what
they've been through. So much about Anya is explained here that
simply wouldn't have occurred to me, but it exactly fits what we've
been shown. A story like this requires that the series dip into its
bag of continuity, and it rises to the occasion, finding clever ways
to work in things like Willow's ongoing struggle with herself, and her
amulet from years ago, and what D'Hoffryn is really like. My original
reaction to the brilliantly constructed argument was "ye gods, what a
great scene," and indeed it is. It's the best "Scoobies arguing"
sequence, even better than that other one that was so good, and that
other other one.

Something that I appreciated comes during the confrontation between
Anya and Buffy. Something new this viewing, I mean, so that's in
addition to the already acknowledged killer act break and the equally
wonderful jump from song to present day. Anya's line "c'mon, Buffy.
Don't you have a clever retort for me?" calls attention to the way our
hero is almost completely silent during the fight sequence. Buffy's
tried to kill her friends before, but this is set apart from the other
times by her sheer intensity. This is a Slayer, doing what she sees
as the thoroughly unpleasant job that no one else can. All in all, I
rank this as my second favorite episode of _Buffy_, finishing behind
only "Innocence," whose emotional impact is a little more
overwhelming. One could make the case that "Selfless" is the deeper
and more substantive of the two, though.
Rating: SUPERLATIVE


Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: Michael Gershman

What is it that drives a person or people to come up with something
like Dawn's cheerleading scene? Is there someone who's actually
amused by the ritual humiliation of theoretically beloved characters?
It's also possible that the viewer is meant to be cringing out of
sympathy, but BTVS usually does that by playing for realism and
universality. Whereas this scene comes in a "comedy" episode through
a situation that's so contrived that any hope for empathy dissipates.
The only other thing I even feel like talking about again is the
nonsense surrounding D'Hoffryn trying to have Anya killed after
pointedly passing up the chance to do so last week. It's not merely a
stupid storyline, it's also a non-starter; this topic is briefly
addressed once more over the whole season, and otherwise disappears
without explanation. The net effect is the unpleasant feeling that
the writers aren't paying attention to their own storylines.
Rating: Bad


Season Seven, Episode 7: "Conversations With Dead People"
Writers: Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard
Director: Nick Marck

CWDP is an odd one. It's well known by now how it was slapped
together and all the collaboration-without-interaction and last-minute
changes that went into it. The end result is strangely unified. I
still think it's a rather brilliant premise for a concept episode,
kicked off by a candidate for best teaser on any of Joss's shows (I
could probably watch just that opening over and over). "Here we go."
Not everything works perfectly. Dawn's segments are loud and
screamy. As great as Azura Skye is, I can only read the scripts and
think of how much more punch it would've had to have the First be
Tara. Buffy allegedly opening up mostly just seems like her re-
telling stories we've already heard. The Buffy/Holden thing is the
big part that doesn't quite do what it's meant to, being simply an
entertaining conversation and not the introspective (super)human drama
that's needed to be the base of a mood-piece episode. I don't think
the superiority/inferiority complex thing, which is apparently the big
punchline of that part of the story, is particularly revealing or even
lays much foundation for Buffy's future actions. The result is that
Holden mainly exists as a font of one-liners and a mechanism to reveal
the plot point about Spike. But enough works that it clicks often.
Sure, the actors are on top of their game, and the jokes have a high
success rate (I kinda want to see the longest version of the "check"
scene that Strong and Lenk were able to manage, as mentioned on the
commentary). And sure, Willow's part is quite heart-wrenching, and
the twists at the end (all of them, but especially Spike) are real
shocks. There's more to it. The teaser's tone persists through the
whole thing, because the way the four storylines are cut together lets
them balance each other out. One would think the screechiness of the
Dawn part in particular would clash horrifically with the pensive
Buffy and Willow sequences, but as some people have pointed out, the
haunted house provides the episode with an infusion of action. That's
then able to spill over to make the other stories feel like they, too,
are ramping up to something big. The mix of longing (yeah, I really
like longing), confusion, and simple weeknight evening listlessness is
a part of everything, which is the right place for everyone to be in
order to get hit with a surprise that changes everything. CWDP is
indeed a mood-piece, one that's much more cohesive than you'd expect
from the orgy-child of a comedy act, a ghost story, a manifesto of
evil, and a graveside chat.
Rating: Good


Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
Director: Alan J. Levi

Is this the episode that goes to a commercial break on the thrilling
act-break note of people talking? That apparently amused some
people. Anyway, "Sleeper" sounds on paper like it should be an
important hour - mystery, pathos, revelations, etcetera. I like the
way the characters really try to think things through rationally, I
don't like the endless establishing shots of people walking or Anya's
scenes, blah blah blah. I could keep listing ****, but the point is
that breaking it down into ingredients emphasizes how much I watch the
episode as a collection of items ("okay, this is kinda cool, this
happens, this joke is just silly, this ties into the story arc...") and
not as a unified piece of entertainment. OBS, who likes "Sleeper"
better than I do, accurately contrasted it with CWDP in that regard.
As much analysis as I throw at it, it mostly just comes down to Mrs.
Quality's summary on re-watching: "this is kind of a boring episode,
isn't it?" It kinda is. Also, we run into a bit of a trap that comes
with throwing out shock endings like Spike snacking at the end of
"Conversations." When you (as a writer/plot-designer, I mean) do
something that extreme and don't actually "mean" it, the explanation
will always be something of a let-down. I know of no way to avoid
that.
Rating: Decent


Additional comments on S7D2: In an interview not too long ago, James
Marsters said that licking Buffy in "Sleeper" really freaked him out,
for whatever reason. He had a lot of difficulty doing that scene.
According to the story, Gellar, a bit impatient after dealing with
this for some extended period of time, finally quipped something like
(no exact quotes from me) "what, so you can rape me but you can't lick
me?" His response was basically "Sarah, you're not helping..."

So let's talk about the First Evil (not yet identified as such) for a
second. In my hazy recollections of Season Seven, I was sorta
developing the notion that a commonality in the First's strategy of
working on the heroes is that it tells people what they're afraid to
hear, channeling the message through the listener themself or their
loved ones. You can't make a difference. The world would be better
with you dead. Don't trust your closest friends. And although the
dialogue in "Sleeper" isn't as pointed as it could be, it's been
argued that First-as-Spike and First-as-Dru (in BOTN) play on fear
too. You're still who you were before the soul, your past has total
power over you [that message often followed by humming], you'll never
rise above it. The First could metaphorically serve as the undying
capacity for evil in human beings driven by fear. Hell, even its
hatred for the Slayer line could come from The Human Race, fearing
what's different (and female). That'd also make me feel justified in
my basically ignoring the First (and more generally, S7's plot) as a
thing to hang character moments on.

But Andrew throws a wrench into the idea. The First seduces him
almost entirely with what he craves, not what he fears. First!Warren
is gentle both pre and post Jonathan. Maybe villains (Caleb too) are
fundamentally different enough that they get treated differently? Why
the First implants a trigger in Spike and not anyone else confuses me
too (along with why exactly it's so interested in him to begin with -
does it see his potential to become a detergent?), since it suggests
more (semi)coherent planning than the rest of S7 displays.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon

one of the questions is how could cecily be halfrek
if the crimean war happened before cecilys time

this episode might provide an explanation
it shows the russian revolution in st petersburg in 1905
which is the wrong time

we were also told way back when that if anyankas jewel was destroyed
all her wishes would be undone

that means before -the wish- the crimean war was late 19th century
and the russian revolution was 1905

after -the wish- the world reverted to its current timeline
with the crimean war in early 19th century
and the russian revolution in 1925

> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> What is it that drives a person or people to come up with something
> like Dawn's cheerleading scene? Is there someone who's actually
> amused by the ritual humiliation of theoretically beloved characters?

i tend to turn down the sound until the bronze scene
with the xander and willow drooling over dawn before they recognize her

> Season Seven, Episode 7: "Conversations With Dead People"
> Writers: Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard
> Director: Nick Marck
>
> CWDP is an odd one. It's well known by now how it was slapped
> together and all the collaboration-without-interaction and last-minute
> changes that went into it. The end result is strangely unified. I
> still think it's a rather brilliant premise for a concept episode,
> kicked off by a candidate for best teaser on any of Joss's shows (I
> could probably watch just that opening over and over). "Here we go."
> Not everything works perfectly. Dawn's segments are loud and
> screamy. As great as Azura Skye is, I can only read the scripts and

yes but azura does have a really big smile

i initially wondered what spike was doing in the episode
becasue the woman he was conversing with wasnt a dead people
then i remember spike was oh right

> fundamentally different enough that they get treated differently? Why
> the First implants a trigger in Spike and not anyone else confuses me
> too (along with why exactly it's so interested in him to begin with -
> does it see his potential to become a detergent?), since it suggests
> more (semi)coherent planning than the rest of S7 displays.

being a dead thing may make spike especially vunerable
remember that its previous outing was trying to turn
the other vampire with soul (but he has complete different coloring)

that led to the speculation that there was something particular
about souled vampires to the firsts plot
that was mever revealed to the readers

perhaps it was shanshu thing


also it seems to me that for gellars high school scenes
her hair and makeup was similar to season one
like they were trying to echo that part of early series
as well invisible girl reptile boy etc

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

In article
<56612ddd-a1d5-4d08-8e97-65c90acae3fe@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> A reminder: These threads are delicate and toylike.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
>
> And BTVS gets into itself again. Unlike "Beneath You," this isn't a
> small story that summons up a bunch of bigger stuff from the
> background. (Although stated that way, that also seems like a
> perfectly sound way to construct an episode.) "Selfless" is itself an
> inherently complex story whose topic is nothing less than the entire
> existence of one of the show's main characters. It's almost as epic
> for the viewer as it is for Anya, an endless lifetime of
> "selflessness" turned in a truly different direction. I don't know
> what a new channel-surfing viewer would think, but by nature, it can't
> be fully appreciated without having followed these people and what
> they've been through. So much about Anya is explained here that
> simply wouldn't have occurred to me, but it exactly fits what we've
> been shown. A story like this requires that the series dip into its
> bag of continuity, and it rises to the occasion, finding clever ways
> to work in things like Willow's ongoing struggle with herself, and her
> amulet from years ago, and what D'Hoffryn is really like. My original
> reaction to the brilliantly constructed argument was "ye gods, what a
> great scene," and indeed it is. It's the best "Scoobies arguing"
> sequence, even better than that other one that was so good, and that
> other other one.
>
> Something that I appreciated comes during the confrontation between
> Anya and Buffy. Something new this viewing, I mean, so that's in
> addition to the already acknowledged killer act break and the equally
> wonderful jump from song to present day. Anya's line "c'mon, Buffy.
> Don't you have a clever retort for me?" calls attention to the way our
> hero is almost completely silent during the fight sequence. Buffy's
> tried to kill her friends before, but this is set apart from the other
> times by her sheer intensity. This is a Slayer, doing what she sees
> as the thoroughly unpleasant job that no one else can. All in all, I
> rank this as my second favorite episode of _Buffy_, finishing behind
> only "Innocence," whose emotional impact is a little more
> overwhelming. One could make the case that "Selfless" is the deeper
> and more substantive of the two, though.
> Rating: SUPERLATIVE

I've always thought that Anya was trying to commit suicide by Slayer in
that fight scene, and that Buffy knew what she was doing, and was
refusing to co-operate. The climatic fight starts out with Anya in
super-strong demon form against Buffy with the sword. After Buffy stabs
Anya. Buffy just stands there and waits, knowing that Anya is going to
wake up again. Then when Anya has the sword, she stays in human form,
with human strength against Buffy. When Xander stops Buffy from driving
the sword through her chest again, Anya tells him to stop trying to save
her.

Buffy knows that Anya wants to die, and she is doing everything in her
power to find another way.


> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> What is it that drives a person or people to come up with something
> like Dawn's cheerleading scene? Is there someone who's actually
> amused by the ritual humiliation of theoretically beloved characters?
> It's also possible that the viewer is meant to be cringing out of
> sympathy, but BTVS usually does that by playing for realism and
> universality.

I've never found humiliation to be amusing. Dawn's cheerleading scene
is one of the two sequences in BTVS that I find to be completely
unwatchable. (The other is the incredibly stupid Cordelia in "The
Wish.")

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:48:19 -0700, mariposas rand mair fheal
<mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
>> Writer: Drew Goddard
>> Director: David Solomon
>
>one of the questions is how could cecily be halfrek
>if the crimean war happened before cecilys time

This assumes that Cecily/Halfrek wasn't already a vengeance demon when she
was effulgent, a fact not in evidence.

To put it another way, how could Anya have been in the failed revolution of
1905 and have been a high school girl failing math in 1999?

>this episode might provide an explanation
>it shows the russian revolution in st petersburg in 1905
>which is the wrong time

There was more than one Russian revolution. Do a google on "russian
revolution 1905" for more info than you probably want to read.


--
.... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)

On Mar 10, 11:35 am, William George Ferguson <wmgfr...@newsguy.com>
wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:48:19 -0700, mariposas rand mair fheal
>
> <mair_fh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> >> Writer: Drew Goddard
> >> Director: David Solomon
>
> >one of the questions is how could cecily be halfrek
> >if the crimean war happened before cecilys time
>
> This assumes that Cecily/Halfrek wasn't already a vengeance demon when she
> was effulgent, a fact not in evidence.
>
> To put it another way, how could Anya have been in the failed revolution of
> 1905 and have been a high school girl failing math in 1999?

My only question about the whole thing is why people want Cecily to be
Halfrek. Running with that theory introduces a bunch of logical
headaches while adding nothing whatsoever to the story.

> >this episode might provide an explanation
> >it shows the russian revolution in st petersburg in 1905
> >which is the wrong time
>
> There was more than one Russian revolution. Do a google on "russian
> revolution 1905" for more info than you probably want to read.

Or alternatively wade through the original review thread, where it got
some discussion.

-AOQ

mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
>> Writer: Drew Goddard
>> Director: David Solomon
>
> one of the questions is how could cecily be halfrek
> if the crimean war happened before cecilys time
>
> this episode might provide an explanation
> it shows the russian revolution in st petersburg in 1905
> which is the wrong time
>
> we were also told way back when that if anyankas jewel was destroyed
> all her wishes would be undone
>
> that means before -the wish- the crimean war was late 19th century
> and the russian revolution was 1905
>
> after -the wish- the world reverted to its current timeline
> with the crimean war in early 19th century
> and the russian revolution in 1925

This one's is very interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_revolution


--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:83240061-7eae-4dbf-b374-d6ef34393d3d@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.
com:

>> >> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> >> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
>> >> Writer: Drew Goddard
>> >> Director: David Solomon
>>

>
> My only question about the whole thing is why people want Cecily
> to be Halfrek. Running with that theory introduces a bunch of
> logical headaches while adding nothing whatsoever to the story.

Joss and Drew DID kind of invite that sort of thing by having that
"William?" line in OAFA.

However, I do agree that there's never been any convincing evidence
that the line was anything more than a quick little inside joke.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

Michael Ikeda wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:83240061-7eae-4dbf-b374-d6ef34393d3d@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.
> com:
>
>>>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>>>> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
>>>>> Writer: Drew Goddard
>>>>> Director: David Solomon
>>>
>
>>
>> My only question about the whole thing is why people want Cecily
>> to be Halfrek. Running with that theory introduces a bunch of
>> logical headaches while adding nothing whatsoever to the story.
>
> Joss and Drew DID kind of invite that sort of thing by having that
> "William?" line in OAFA.
>
> However, I do agree that there's never been any convincing evidence
> that the line was anything more than a quick little inside joke.

But it was hook they could always have hung a later plot development on,
until they killed it off (possibly accidentally) by the Crimean War
reference.
--
John Briggs

I shall give it a try!

Arbitrar Of Quality $B$N%a%C%;!<%8(B:
> A reminder: These threads are delicate and toylike.
> But Andrew throws a wrench into the idea. The First seduces him
> almost entirely with what he craves, not what he fears. First!Warren
> is gentle both pre and post Jonathan. Maybe villains (Caleb too) are
> fundamentally different enough that they get treated differently? Why
> the First implants a trigger in Spike and not anyone else confuses me
> too (along with why exactly it's so interested in him to begin with -
> does it see his potential to become a detergent?), since it suggests
> more (semi)coherent planning than the rest of S7 displays.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -AOQ

My suspicion is that Spike was the only one whose mental state made it
easy to implant a trigger. It's been firmly established with both
Spike and Angel that the sudden influx of a human soul, whether
expected or not, does not help their sanity. Angelus was blank for a
bit upon first getting his. Now, the First could not really do
anything with Angel while he was sane, but fresh back from Hell made
him vulnerable. It sure went after him and, my guess, was trying to
implant a trigger. It has an objection to the conjunction of Slayer,
Hellmouth and souled vampires. That's what I think.

Why villains? Villains are evil, remember? The First is EVIL. They
get along just fine. Andrew was just weak. And it became less gentle
when it realized he wasn't going to go along any more.

Why do people want Halfrek to be Cec? *shrug* First the running
joke of the "William?" and then they made the comic where Cec was
Halfrek. Not "going to be Halfrek" but "Halfrek there to get someone
to make a wish."

> Why do people want Halfrek to be Cec? *shrug* First the running
> joke of the "William?" and then they made the comic where Cec was
> Halfrek. Not "going to be Halfrek" but "Halfrek there to get someone
> to make a wish."

because its fun to take everything deathly serious

arf meow arf - i dont like squishy
i think i hit a wookie on the expressway
nobody could do that much decoupage
without calling on the powers of darkness

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:56612ddd-a1d5-4d08-8e97-65c90acae3fe@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"

> A story like this requires that the series dip into its
> bag of continuity, and it rises to the occasion, finding clever ways
> to work in things like Willow's ongoing struggle with herself, and her
> amulet from years ago, and what D'Hoffryn is really like.

At times it does tend into continuity porn, especially when going for the
laugh. And there sure is a lot of it. But its function in demonstrating
depth of character and story is astounding in effect. Even the seemingly
throw away jokes over her original name - Aud - ultimately speak to Anya's
lack of personal identity. The humor of it (and that of the whole episode)
also serves wonderfully to make this a frequently bright feeling episode in
spite of very dark underlying content. Of course that's trademark BtVS.
But seldom does it pull it off this well.


> My original
> reaction to the brilliantly constructed argument was "ye gods, what a
> great scene," and indeed it is. It's the best "Scoobies arguing"
> sequence, even better than that other one that was so good, and that
> other other one.

Again I'm fascinated at how well it speaks to the S7 themes of the slayer
power all resting on Buffy alone. Arguably it might lay it out better than
CWDP - perhaps because of the way this conversation ties it back to the
series history of Buffy bearing the burden alone. It certainly sets the
foundation for coming conflict with the Scoobies.

At the same time - in the very best of a BtVS tradition that has always
amazed me - it is spot on for the moment and the immediate crisis at hand.
Indeed, it may be the episode's peak. This ability to layer multiple
powerful implications into a single sequence (it also introduces the tension
of Buffy expecting more from a reluctant Willow) without sacrificing any
element in favor of another has an awful lot to do with my love affair with
this series.


> Something that I appreciated comes during the confrontation between
> Anya and Buffy. Something new this viewing, I mean, so that's in
> addition to the already acknowledged killer act break and the equally
> wonderful jump from song to present day. Anya's line "c'mon, Buffy.
> Don't you have a clever retort for me?" calls attention to the way our
> hero is almost completely silent during the fight sequence. Buffy's
> tried to kill her friends before, but this is set apart from the other
> times by her sheer intensity. This is a Slayer, doing what she sees
> as the thoroughly unpleasant job that no one else can.

Buffy's silence during their fight is one of the episode's curiosities to
me. I'll echo Don's observation that Buffy seems to stand there waiting for
Anya to revive after being stabbed - as if she knew full well that it wasn't
a killing blow. I don't know if that means she's actively trying to find
another solution - the information available seems insufficient to
confidently assert that. But at the least I believe we're seeing a real
reluctance on Buffy's part. Indeed, in the next episode Buffy will rescue
Anya and bring her under Buffy's wing as one of Buffy's friends - "friend"
specifically used.

I think this is interesting in light of the earlier big argument. Buffy's
logic is pretty much irrefutable - even Willow knows she has no choice. And
the Angel story effectively establishes that the decision matters to her in
they way Xander accuses her of it not.

Be that as it may, Buffy's apparent attitude still rings a little hollow in
light of her history of refusing the expedient solution when faced with no
evident choice. That was a big theme at the end of S3 with regards to
saving both Willow and Angel. And even a bigger theme at the end of S5 with
regards to saving Dawn. As we discussed some back in S2, I've always felt
that skewering Angel in Becoming was so devastating to Buffy that, at least
subconsciously, she swore to never do that again. Which she's pretty much
lived up to (with the possible exception of Faith, but that gets into side
complexities I don't care to get into now), all the way to choosing her own
death instead.

So letting go of that stubborn refusal to compromise with those she cares
about scares me some. It's flirting with letting go of her heart as guiding
light. We'll get more of that this season as she speaks with Giles of her
willingness to make hard decisions; as she pushes Willow and Spike into
risking life, limb and soul; as she treats potentials harshly and distances
herself from them.

But even though the surface level plot of the season leads to a horrible
break between Buffy and friends as she seemingly is too ready to sacrifice
them for her dubious objectives; there is much to counter that perspective.
We also see Buffy refuse the dose of demon power because it would take away
from her humanity. Even though she tries to convince herself that
distancing herself from the potentials will ease the pain of their loss, we
see her break down privately when one dies. And most of all, Buffy's
stubborn determination to save Spike evidences the same refusal to give into
expediency that she's held since Becoming.

So I do like to think that something was staying Buffy's hand as she battled
Anya. Perhaps Xander's words - as un-artful as they were - prodded Buffy's
heart just enough. The tightrope balancing of attitudes certainly fits with
the seasonal themes. Also, the repeat of the Becoming scenario of
swordfight while Willow seeks a solution off-stage, differs in the very
important respect that this time Willow intercedes in time. A sequence that
also pre-sages the series finale of working the critical magic off-stage
while the slayer army tries to survive.


> All in all, I
> rank this as my second favorite episode of _Buffy_, finishing behind
> only "Innocence," whose emotional impact is a little more
> overwhelming. One could make the case that "Selfless" is the deeper
> and more substantive of the two, though.
> Rating: SUPERLATIVE

Also one of my favorites, though not quite as high as #2. Rated as
Excellent by me - but I don't have a Superlative rating. I don't have a
feeling for what the dividing line for that would be.


> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> What is it that drives a person or people to come up with something
> like Dawn's cheerleading scene? Is there someone who's actually
> amused by the ritual humiliation of theoretically beloved characters?

The scene is mainly about Dawn's sense of hopeless inadequacy. She's
surrounded by people so much more capable than she that it's hopeless for
her to try to match them. When she tries, she makes a fool of herself. The
same thing had been done earlier when she attempted to have a conversation
with the in crowd in the hallway. And gets repeated on a much grander scale
when she finds herself in competition with Buffy, Willow & Anya. Most
importantly, of course, is the competition with Buffy. The hopelessness of
it ultimately leads to the suicide attempt as the only way to top them and
get the attention she deserves.

One might carry that further to see it as a response to submerged feelings
about Buffy's death in The Gift. A learned response to hopelessness - and a
great way to get attention.

I'm not wild about going that deep into a pretty slight episode, but I think
you have the wrong idea about the scene. I think it's primarily a character
moment for Dawn where the point very much is supposed to be how Dawn feels
humiliated by the experience. I believe we're supposed to feel sympathy for
her more so than enjoy her humiliation. To the extent that we do laugh,
we're supposed to feel a little guilty about it. The humorous elements
partly feeds that guilt, but also ease the anguish by softening it some with
a little natural awkwardness and ineptitude of youth - something we can both
empathize with and smile at because we know that it will be grown out of.
Probably in part through enduring it.


> It's also possible that the viewer is meant to be cringing out of
> sympathy, but BTVS usually does that by playing for realism and
> universality. Whereas this scene comes in a "comedy" episode through
> a situation that's so contrived that any hope for empathy dissipates.

You've never found yourself in a position that's out of your league?


> The only other thing I even feel like talking about again is the
> nonsense surrounding D'Hoffryn trying to have Anya killed after
> pointedly passing up the chance to do so last week. It's not merely a
> stupid storyline, it's also a non-starter; this topic is briefly
> addressed once more over the whole season, and otherwise disappears
> without explanation. The net effect is the unpleasant feeling that
> the writers aren't paying attention to their own storylines.

The one thing I like about that scene is how it shows Buffy accepting Anya
unreservedly - even acknowledging her as friend. Part of S7's story of
Buffy seeing the possibility for redemption in Willow, Anya, Andrew and,
most especially, Spike. Indeed, this parallels the start of that story for
Spike. Perhaps the experience of Selfless really moved Buffy to act.

What I really dislike about it - even more than your quite accurate
observation - is the way bringing Anya into the Summer's house (and in close
contact with Xander) undermines the beautiful conclusion of Selfless where
she finally determines to find her true self, and finally forgives Xander,
but in a final separation sort of way. This episode tries to explain it
away with words, but the kind of words that sound an awful lot like writers
scrambling to change their minds.

It's not all bad. A decent effort will be made to confront Anya's specific
problem with rejection, leading to a pretty terrific scene of she and Xander
having sex again. But other than her end of season musings about the nature
of humans, I don't think the character ever really recovers from the
interrupted self sufficiency. It's one of my greater disappointments in S7.


> Rating: Bad

A minor episode with little engaging in it. (Though I continue to like
Buffy with the rocket launcher.) I suppose that officially it kicks off the
ensuing Spike mini-arc, but really CWDP is the clearer beginning. As a
character episode for Dawn it doesn't seem to achieve much. It's not like
we need a new episode to tell us that Dawn has trust issues with Buffy. Nor
is this terribly effective at reliving the magic of BB&B - even for those
who liked BB&B. So the episode pretty much demands a poor rating. I just
don't particularly hate it. So it gets a Weak from me rather than Bad.
Still, it's one of the worst episodes of the series.


> Season Seven, Episode 7: "Conversations With Dead People"

> CWDP is an odd one. It's well known by now how it was slapped
> together and all the collaboration-without-interaction and last-minute
> changes that went into it. The end result is strangely unified. I
> still think it's a rather brilliant premise for a concept episode,
> kicked off by a candidate for best teaser on any of Joss's shows (I
> could probably watch just that opening over and over). "Here we go."
> Not everything works perfectly. Dawn's segments are loud and
> screamy. As great as Azura Skye is, I can only read the scripts and
> think of how much more punch it would've had to have the First be
> Tara. Buffy allegedly opening up mostly just seems like her re-
> telling stories we've already heard. The Buffy/Holden thing is the
> big part that doesn't quite do what it's meant to, being simply an
> entertaining conversation and not the introspective (super)human drama
> that's needed to be the base of a mood-piece episode. I don't think
> the superiority/inferiority complex thing, which is apparently the big
> punchline of that part of the story, is particularly revealing or even
> lays much foundation for Buffy's future actions. The result is that
> Holden mainly exists as a font of one-liners and a mechanism to reveal
> the plot point about Spike. But enough works that it clicks often.
> Sure, the actors are on top of their game, and the jokes have a high
> success rate (I kinda want to see the longest version of the "check"
> scene that Strong and Lenk were able to manage, as mentioned on the
> commentary). And sure, Willow's part is quite heart-wrenching, and
> the twists at the end (all of them, but especially Spike) are real
> shocks. There's more to it. The teaser's tone persists through the
> whole thing, because the way the four storylines are cut together lets
> them balance each other out. One would think the screechiness of the
> Dawn part in particular would clash horrifically with the pensive
> Buffy and Willow sequences, but as some people have pointed out, the
> haunted house provides the episode with an infusion of action. That's
> then able to spill over to make the other stories feel like they, too,
> are ramping up to something big. The mix of longing (yeah, I really
> like longing), confusion, and simple weeknight evening listlessness is
> a part of everything, which is the right place for everyone to be in
> order to get hit with a surprise that changes everything. CWDP is
> indeed a mood-piece, one that's much more cohesive than you'd expect
> from the orgy-child of a comedy act, a ghost story, a manifesto of
> evil, and a graveside chat.
> Rating: Good

A lot of people love this episode. I think it's pretty good - enough for a
Good rating, albeit not a terribly high Good. It does work as a mood piece
and is mostly constructed well - especially for its opening and closing.
But its weaknesses - which you lay out pretty well above - impinge on its
greatness seriously. It's far from the masterpiece its presentation
suggests it ought to be.

Except for the Trio's scenes, which I think are uniformly Excellent.


> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"

> Is this the episode that goes to a commercial break on the thrilling
> act-break note of people talking? That apparently amused some
> people. Anyway, "Sleeper" sounds on paper like it should be an
> important hour - mystery, pathos, revelations, etcetera. I like the
> way the characters really try to think things through rationally, I
> don't like the endless establishing shots of people walking or Anya's
> scenes, blah blah blah. I could keep listing ****, but the point is
> that breaking it down into ingredients emphasizes how much I watch the
> episode as a collection of items ("okay, this is kinda cool, this
> happens, this joke is just silly, this ties into the story arc...") and
> not as a unified piece of entertainment. OBS, who likes "Sleeper"
> better than I do, accurately contrasted it with CWDP in that regard.
> As much analysis as I throw at it, it mostly just comes down to Mrs.
> Quality's summary on re-watching: "this is kind of a boring episode,
> isn't it?" It kinda is. Also, we run into a bit of a trap that comes
> with throwing out shock endings like Spike snacking at the end of
> "Conversations." When you (as a writer/plot-designer, I mean) do
> something that extreme and don't actually "mean" it, the explanation
> will always be something of a let-down. I know of no way to avoid
> that.
> Rating: Decent

I still do like the episode better than you. Indeed, a big part of me wants
to rate it as Good for the way it gets my mind and heart racing - especially
the culmination of Buffy choosing to help Spike. But I can't ignore how
clumsily it often is made and how labored much of the dialogue is. It feels
like an episode shot from a rough draft without refinement. And considering
how much important concepts are only going to get repeated in subsequent
episodes, it doesn't earn more than a Decent rating.

Having said that, I'd still like to praise some of the elements that really
strike home for me. I love the scene of Buffy trying to follow Spike
through the crowd. The mysterious way Spike seems to change as the odd tune
gets into his head. How you sense Buffy's growing disquiet as she watches
Spike on the prowl. The fleeting glimpses of what may or may not be Spike
as she loses him in the crowd. And the awful moment when she seems to catch
him red handed, only to goad him into finishing the kill. (I was so
confused and horrified when I first saw that. I thought it was really
Buffy.) "There's my guy."

I love how Spike's true inner strength is revealed as he sees through what
is happening to him and immediately and fearlessly tells Buffy the truth. I
don't know what exactly happened, but I also loved how tasting Slayer blood
also stripped away the illusion and made Spike pull back.

I especially love the final conversation between Buffy and Spike. (I don't
know why you consider the explanation of Spike plagued with inflicted
visions as a let-down.) I love how Spike finally comprehending that his
madness is inflicted moves from despair to hope, stops thinking that he
doesn't deserve help and starts asking for it. And I love how the
realization of what is being done to Spike further clarifies the
possibilities within Spike to Buffy, so that she acts with her heart and
says yes to Spike's pleas.

Spike: Will you... Help me. Can you help me?
Buffy: I'll help you.

At this moment that's a commitment, I believe. In that sense, as powerful
and commanding to Buffy as her commitment to Joyce to protect Dawn in S5.
For me it's one of the most powerful moments of the season - and possibly
the critical element that the Scoobies don't comprehend in their subsequent
expressions of doubt that will divide our intrepid warriors.


> So let's talk about the First Evil (not yet identified as such) for a
> second. In my hazy recollections of Season Seven, I was sorta
> developing the notion that a commonality in the First's strategy of
> working on the heroes is that it tells people what they're afraid to
> hear, channeling the message through the listener themself or their
> loved ones. You can't make a difference. The world would be better
> with you dead. Don't trust your closest friends. And although the
> dialogue in "Sleeper" isn't as pointed as it could be, it's been
> argued that First-as-Spike and First-as-Dru (in BOTN) play on fear
> too. You're still who you were before the soul, your past has total
> power over you [that message often followed by humming], you'll never
> rise above it. The First could metaphorically serve as the undying
> capacity for evil in human beings driven by fear. Hell, even its
> hatred for the Slayer line could come from The Human Race, fearing
> what's different (and female). That'd also make me feel justified in
> my basically ignoring the First (and more generally, S7's plot) as a
> thing to hang character moments on.
>
> But Andrew throws a wrench into the idea. The First seduces him
> almost entirely with what he craves, not what he fears. First!Warren
> is gentle both pre and post Jonathan.

I'm not convinced that fear need necessarily be the driving component,
though it certainly could be a common one. Be that as it may, I think it
could be argued that Andrew fears facing his own failings, which have built
into massive immorality. The fantasy life - the story telling - are his
means of avoidance. Warren's way is to feed that avoidance, which only
further adds to the evil ways. Makes it possible for him to act in the
worst manner, beguiled by the sense of heroic adventure that he imagines.
Buffy will eventually force him to see the truth in a scene filled with his
fear of knowing himself. In CWDP we get an early glimpse of that, I think,
when he lashes back at Jonathan's fond thoughts about people he knew in high
school. I think because Andrew cannot bear to have his illusions broken.

So what he craves is just the means for running from his fears.


> Maybe villains (Caleb too) are
> fundamentally different enough that they get treated differently? Why
> the First implants a trigger in Spike and not anyone else confuses me
> too (along with why exactly it's so interested in him to begin with -
> does it see his potential to become a detergent?), since it suggests
> more (semi)coherent planning than the rest of S7 displays.

I don't think the "trigger" is just some mechanical thing The First can
implant in anybody. (Though the seeming mechanical aspect of it probably
does matter, at least in a character sense. The First's means of attack on
Spike parallels the effect of the chip - in reverse - something unique and
peculiar to Spike.) I think it's more a found opportunity within Spike
that's capable of overriding the effects of the chip (for reasons not really
explained) and, more importantly, of the soul. It's not even really
implanted. Just discovered. We're eventually shown that it is associative
memory that psychologically returns him to the time he truly turned evil.
(Theoretically, one might imagine that something similar might have been
prompted by the tune even without The First's presence. Of course The First
manipulates the effect through the use of visions.)

Once Spike learns what's happening, it ceases to have any power over him.
Again suggesting that it's not something implanted from outside, but rather
something natural to himself. That actually makes Spike one of the better
examples of how The First is really the evil within oneself.

OBS

On Mar 13, 5:44 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:56612ddd-a1d5-4d08-8e97-65c90acae3fe@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

> > My original
> > reaction to the brilliantly constructed argument was "ye gods, what a
> > great scene," and indeed it is. It's the best "Scoobies arguing"
> > sequence, even better than that other one that was so good, and that
> > other other one.
>
> Again I'm fascinated at how well it speaks to the S7 themes of the slayer
> power all resting on Buffy alone. Arguably it might lay it out better than
> CWDP - perhaps because of the way this conversation ties it back to the
> series history of Buffy bearing the burden alone. It certainly sets the
> foundation for coming conflict with the Scoobies.
>
> At the same time - in the very best of a BtVS tradition that has always
> amazed me - it is spot on for the moment and the immediate crisis at hand.
> Indeed, it may be the episode's peak. This ability to layer multiple
> powerful implications into a single sequence (it also introduces the tension
> of Buffy expecting more from a reluctant Willow) without sacrificing any
> element in favor of another has an awful lot to do with my love affair with
> this series.

Agreed.

> > Something that I appreciated comes during the confrontation between
> > Anya and Buffy. Something new this viewing, I mean, so that's in
> > addition to the already acknowledged killer act break and the equally
> > wonderful jump from song to present day. Anya's line "c'mon, Buffy.
> > Don't you have a clever retort for me?" calls attention to the way our
> > hero is almost completely silent during the fight sequence. Buffy's
> > tried to kill her friends before, but this is set apart from the other
> > times by her sheer intensity. This is a Slayer, doing what she sees
> > as the thoroughly unpleasant job that no one else can.
>
> Buffy's silence during their fight is one of the episode's curiosities to
> me. I'll echo Don's observation that Buffy seems to stand there waiting for
> Anya to revive after being stabbed - as if she knew full well that it wasn't
> a killing blow. I don't know if that means she's actively trying to find
> another solution - the information available seems insufficient to
> confidently assert that. But at the least I believe we're seeing a real
> reluctance on Buffy's part. Indeed, in the next episode Buffy will rescue
> Anya and bring her under Buffy's wing as one of Buffy's friends - "friend"
> specifically used.
>
> I think this is interesting in light of the earlier big argument. Buffy's
> logic is pretty much irrefutable - even Willow knows she has no choice. And
> the Angel story effectively establishes that the decision matters to her in
> they way Xander accuses her of it not.
>
> Be that as it may, Buffy's apparent attitude still rings a little hollow in
> light of her history of refusing the expedient solution when faced with no
> evident choice. That was a big theme at the end of S3 with regards to
> saving both Willow and Angel. And even a bigger theme at the end of S5 with
> regards to saving Dawn. As we discussed some back in S2, I've always felt
> that skewering Angel in Becoming was so devastating to Buffy that, at least
> subconsciously, she swore to never do that again. Which she's pretty much
> lived up to (with the possible exception of Faith, but that gets into side
> complexities I don't care to get into now), all the way to choosing her own
> death instead.
[snip]
> So I do like to think that something was staying Buffy's hand as she battled
> Anya. Perhaps Xander's words - as un-artful as they were - prodded Buffy's
> heart just enough. The tightrope balancing of attitudes certainly fits with
> the seasonal themes. Also, the repeat of the Becoming scenario of
> swordfight while Willow seeks a solution off-stage, differs in the very
> important respect that this time Willow intercedes in time. A sequence that
> also pre-sages the series finale of working the critical magic off-stage
> while the slayer army tries to survive.

It doesn't have to be an either/or. It can be a tightrope. It
follows from the argument, in which Buffy firmly believes that killing
Anya is the right thing to do, arguing passionately for it, but it
doesn't stop her from almost begging Xander to come up with a better
plan. Buffy's silence and mannerisms during the confrontation with
Anya emphasize how unpleasant a duty this is for her, more so than any
other time in the series (if we refer only to her feelings *before*
doing a job, it hits me harder than "Becoming"). For better and for
worse ("and" because that's not an either/or, um, either), she's
comfortably taken on the mantle of the Slayer who's the only one who
faces what no one else should have to.

[Dawn's cheerleading]
> > It's also possible that the viewer is meant to be cringing out of
> > sympathy, but BTVS usually does that by playing for realism and
> > universality. Whereas this scene comes in a "comedy" episode through
> > a situation that's so contrived that any hope for empathy dissipates.
>
> You've never found yourself in a position that's out of your league?

And gotten involved with it anyway out of a desire to impress an
unlikable crush while under the influence of a magic spell? Nah.
Except for that one time...

> What I really dislike about it - even more than your quite accurate
> observation - is the way bringing Anya into the Summer's house (and in close
> contact with Xander) undermines the beautiful conclusion of Selfless where
> she finally determines to find her true self, and finally forgives Xander,
> but in a final separation sort of way. This episode tries to explain it
> away with words, but the kind of words that sound an awful lot like writers
> scrambling to change their minds.

Maybe they figured they'd used up their quota of "Anya apart from the
group" time. But still, if ever a series was crying out for a major
character to take a few weeks off (well, ATS S3 was too, but for very
different reasons)...

> A minor episode with little engaging in it. (Though I continue to like
> Buffy with the rocket launcher.)

That seems to be a popular moment. Probably for good reason, since
it's got the comedic timing that so many of the other gags lack (every
element of the scene needs to be there for it to work, especially
oblivious Wood). One of the only two or three times I even smile
during the last 20-25 minutes of "Him."

> Having said that, I'd still like to praise some of the elements that really
> strike home for me. I love the scene of Buffy trying to follow Spike
> through the crowd.

A defining feature of this episode for me is people trying to pass
through crowds. Less of a good thing for me.

> I especially love the final conversation between Buffy and Spike. (I don't
> know why you consider the explanation of Spike plagued with inflicted
> visions as a let-down.) I love how Spike finally comprehending that his
> madness is inflicted moves from despair to hope, stops thinking that he
> doesn't deserve help and starts asking for it. And I love how the
> realization of what is being done to Spike further clarifies the
> possibilities within Spike to Buffy, so that she acts with her heart and
> says yes to Spike's pleas.
>
> Spike: Will you... Help me. Can you help me?
> Buffy: I'll help you.
>
> At this moment that's a commitment, I believe. In that sense, as powerful
> and commanding to Buffy as her commitment to Joyce to protect Dawn in S5.

[Shrug.] She's been helping him already this year and will again. I
guess my mind prefers to channel its "momentous moment" energy into "I
believe in you" from the next episode instead.

> For me it's one of the most powerful moments of the season - and possibly
> the critical element that the Scoobies don't comprehend in their subsequent
> expressions of doubt that will divide our intrepid warriors.

> > Why
> > the First implants a trigger in Spike and not anyone else confuses me
> > too (along with why exactly it's so interested in him to begin with -
> > does it see his potential to become a detergent?), since it suggests
> > more (semi)coherent planning than the rest of S7 displays.
>
> I don't think the "trigger" is just some mechanical thing The First can
> implant in anybody. (Though the seeming mechanical aspect of it probably
> does matter, at least in a character sense. The First's means of attack on
> Spike parallels the effect of the chip - in reverse - something unique and
> peculiar to Spike.) I think it's more a found opportunity within Spike
> that's capable of overriding the effects of the chip (for reasons not really
> explained) and, more importantly, of the soul. It's not even really
> implanted. Just discovered. We're eventually shown that it is associative
> memory that psychologically returns him to the time he truly turned evil.
> (Theoretically, one might imagine that something similar might have been
> prompted by the tune even without The First's presence. Of course The First
> manipulates the effect through the use of visions.)
>
> Once Spike learns what's happening, it ceases to have any power over him.
> Again suggesting that it's not something implanted from outside, but rather
> something natural to himself. That actually makes Spike one of the better
> examples of how The First is really the evil within oneself.

That works nicely, thanks. The characters largely treat it as if it
were a literally implanted device, so the incomplete analogy kinda
dominated my thinking about it.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:40872624-dfc9-472e-95e3-2d8d389de966@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 13, 5:44 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:56612ddd-a1d5-4d08-8e97-65c90acae3fe@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

>> So I do like to think that something was staying Buffy's hand as she
>> battled
>> Anya. Perhaps Xander's words - as un-artful as they were - prodded
>> Buffy's
>> heart just enough. The tightrope balancing of attitudes certainly fits
>> with
>> the seasonal themes. Also, the repeat of the Becoming scenario of
>> swordfight while Willow seeks a solution off-stage, differs in the very
>> important respect that this time Willow intercedes in time. A sequence
>> that
>> also pre-sages the series finale of working the critical magic off-stage
>> while the slayer army tries to survive.
>
> It doesn't have to be an either/or. It can be a tightrope. It
> follows from the argument, in which Buffy firmly believes that killing
> Anya is the right thing to do, arguing passionately for it, but it
> doesn't stop her from almost begging Xander to come up with a better
> plan. Buffy's silence and mannerisms during the confrontation with
> Anya emphasize how unpleasant a duty this is for her, more so than any
> other time in the series (if we refer only to her feelings *before*
> doing a job, it hits me harder than "Becoming"). For better and for
> worse ("and" because that's not an either/or, um, either), she's
> comfortably taken on the mantle of the Slayer who's the only one who
> faces what no one else should have to.

Oh, you're certainly right about it being both. It's just that Buffy's I am
the law speech is so persuasive (which, of course, Xander will take in the
worst way down the road) and Xander's argument is so thin and self serving
(but passionate and of a good heart too), that it can be missed how much
Buffy is pushing the edges of her own established principles. She's acting
like Buffy in some ways, but not in others. Or to put it another way, it's
a variation of the Slayer trap with the demands of her calling constantly
pressing to take away the essence of her self.

I think it's great stuff. The return to the original source of tension in
the series, imagined in a surprisingly fresh way, is the best feature of the
season for me. Even if there might be a couple stumbles along the way, it
still pulls it off beautifully in the end.


>> What I really dislike about it - even more than your quite accurate
>> observation - is the way bringing Anya into the Summer's house (and in
>> close
>> contact with Xander) undermines the beautiful conclusion of Selfless
>> where
>> she finally determines to find her true self, and finally forgives
>> Xander,
>> but in a final separation sort of way. This episode tries to explain it
>> away with words, but the kind of words that sound an awful lot like
>> writers
>> scrambling to change their minds.
>
> Maybe they figured they'd used up their quota of "Anya apart from the
> group" time. But still, if ever a series was crying out for a major
> character to take a few weeks off (well, ATS S3 was too, but for very
> different reasons)...

Precisely. I had been idly thinking that they maybe they should have
distanced her for a while like they did with Tara in S6.


>> I especially love the final conversation between Buffy and Spike. (I
>> don't
>> know why you consider the explanation of Spike plagued with inflicted
>> visions as a let-down.) I love how Spike finally comprehending that his
>> madness is inflicted moves from despair to hope, stops thinking that he
>> doesn't deserve help and starts asking for it. And I love how the
>> realization of what is being done to Spike further clarifies the
>> possibilities within Spike to Buffy, so that she acts with her heart and
>> says yes to Spike's pleas.
>>
>> Spike: Will you... Help me. Can you help me?
>> Buffy: I'll help you.
>>
>> At this moment that's a commitment, I believe. In that sense, as
>> powerful
>> and commanding to Buffy as her commitment to Joyce to protect Dawn in S5.
>
> [Shrug.] She's been helping him already this year and will again. I
> guess my mind prefers to channel its "momentous moment" energy into "I
> believe in you" from the next episode instead.

I get that - and it has the virtue of being easier to understand. But this
happens first, and at least tries to get at how Buffy decides. Next time
it's more to get it across to Spike so that he has the strength to
persevere. Buffy had already decided.

Having said that, the duplication between the episodes is one of the things
I find annoying. As I said before, I really wish they had found a way to
compress this run by one or even two episodes. It's one of the messier
periods of the season for me.


>> Once Spike learns what's happening, it ceases to have any power over him.
>> Again suggesting that it's not something implanted from outside, but
>> rather
>> something natural to himself. That actually makes Spike one of the
>> better
>> examples of how The First is really the evil within oneself.
>
> That works nicely, thanks. The characters largely treat it as if it
> were a literally implanted device, so the incomplete analogy kinda
> dominated my thinking about it.

LMPTM chooses not to directly explain - it just shows the sequence of events
ending up with Spike cured. So you have to work it out. It took me a while
to get there, but I think it's pretty solidly demonstrated - except for why
the chip doesn't work. The characters treat it as an implant because they
don't know better. It's how it looks to them. (Probably reinforced by
already thinking of Spike as controlled by an implant.) And it's certainly
true that The First used its visions to turn the association into a useful
psychosis. That part's a lot like what it did with Angel. There just
wasn't a clever trigger that time.

Which reminds me again how much Spike is paralleling Angel's story - and how
S7 periodically parallels S3. (Though it draws on other seasons too.)

OBS

In article
<56612ddd-a1d5-4d08-8e97-65c90acae3fe@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> In my hazy recollections of Season Seven, I was sorta
> developing the notion that a commonality in the First's strategy of
> working on the heroes is that it tells people what they're afraid to
> hear,

I always thought he told them what would most help him manipulate them,
fear, flattery, whatever it took
--
Ready for blast off: http://spacecaptainsmith.com

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:56612ddd-a1d5-4d08-8e97-65c90acae3fe@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: These threads are delicate and toylike.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Rating: SUPERLATIVE

The highlights for me are the two flashbacks, to ancient Sweden and to
OMWF - and then of course there is the astonishing cruelty of D'Hoffryn's
punishment of his favourite demon who broke his heart - not Head of
Vengeance for nothing. But it only works as as very high Good for me. Of
course, I've mentioned in the past that I calibrated my rankings to yours
during your reviews of seasons 1 & 2, and since it turned out that you liked
those seasons much less than me, that turned out to impose a very high
standard for an episode to be called Excellent. In the end, there are only
17 episodes that reach that standard, and Selfless is No. 19, and best in
season 7 (unchanged from last time).


> Season Seven, Episode 6: "Him"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> What is it that drives a person or people to come up with something
> like Dawn's cheerleading scene? Is there someone who's actually
> amused by the ritual humiliation of theoretically beloved characters?

Yo!

Personally I think it is much more mean-spirited to be amused by the
humiliation of unsympathetic characters. When characters we identify with
take a ride on a banana skin, it is analogous to it happening to ourselves.
Much of the humour is of course in the fact that the spell victims are all
still acting in character, albeit remotivated (remotivated quite a way in
the case of Willow). Buffy & Spike outside principal Wood's office are
classic.

> Rating: Bad
Good for me. An inferior remake of BBB, but sometimes a little is enough.
It's my 61st favourite BtVS episode, 6th best in season 7 (last time was
73rd and 6th).

> Season Seven, Episode 7: "Conversations With Dead People"
> Writers: Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard
> Director: Nick Marck
>
> telling stories we've already heard. The Buffy/Holden thing is the
> big part that doesn't quite do what it's meant to, being simply an
> entertaining conversation and not the introspective (super)human drama
> that's needed to be the base of a mood-piece episode. I don't think
> the superiority/inferiority complex thing, which is apparently the big
> punchline of that part of the story, is particularly revealing or even
> lays much foundation for Buffy's future actions. The result is that
> Holden mainly exists as a font of one-liners and a mechanism to reveal
> the plot point about Spike.

Groucho Marx couldn't even claim to be a mechanism to reveal a plot point
about Spike, but he did OK.

> them balance each other out. One would think the screechiness of the
> Dawn part in particular would clash horrifically with the pensive
> Buffy and Willow sequences, but as some people have pointed out, the
> haunted house provides the episode with an infusion of action. That's
> then able to spill over to make the other stories feel like they, too,
> are ramping up to something big. The mix of longing (yeah, I really
> like longing), confusion, and simple weeknight evening listlessness is
> a part of everything, which is the right place for everyone to be in
> order to get hit with a surprise that changes everything. CWDP is
> indeed a mood-piece, one that's much more cohesive than you'd expect
> from the orgy-child of a comedy act, a ghost story, a manifesto of
> evil, and a graveside chat.
> Rating: Good

Good for me too, but pretty close to Excellent. The more I watch it, the
less enamoured I am with the Dawn and Willow segments, but the Buffy and
Nerd Trio segments are enough to keep it in 20th place amongst all BtVS
episodes, 2nd best in season 7.

> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: Alan J. Levi
>
> As much analysis as I throw at it, it mostly just comes down to Mrs.
> Quality's summary on re-watching: "this is kind of a boring episode,
> isn't it?" It kinda is. Also, we run into a bit of a trap that comes
> with throwing out shock endings like Spike snacking at the end of
> "Conversations." When you (as a writer/plot-designer, I mean) do
> something that extreme and don't actually "mean" it, the explanation
> will always be something of a let-down. I know of no way to avoid
> that.
> Rating: Decent

Decent for me too, and yes it is kind of boring. I probably wouldn't have
rewatched it if it hadn't been on the star disk of the season. But it does
continue to inch its way up in my rankings, now up to 92nd best in BtVS,
11th best in season 7 (last time was 97th and 12th).

I am falling a bit behind in my comments. But on the bright side, you are
now getting into sections of both series that I am not much interested in
rewatching and commenting on, with the dark cloud of the potentials about to
descend on BtVS, and AtS taking half a season off for the characters to run
around doing nothing to any purpose, so I should be able to keep up with
commenting on the episodes that are worth another look - and how many of
them can there be?


--
Apteryx

Hullo, I haven't really been around the Buffyverse lately, but have
wandered by now and then to see how the reread is going. This caught
my eye:

On Mar 10, 12:40 am, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

> Season Seven, Episode 7: "Conversations With Dead People"
> Writers: Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard
> Director: Nick Marck
>
> CWDP is an odd one. It's well known by now how it was slapped
> together and all the collaboration-without-interaction and last-minute
> changes that went into it. The end result is strangely unified. I
> still think it's a rather brilliant premise for a concept episode,
> kicked off by a candidate for best teaser on any of Joss's shows (I
> could probably watch just that opening over and over). "Here we go."
> Not everything works perfectly. Dawn's segments are loud and
> screamy.

It startled me to learn that this episode was cobbled together,
because with the exception of Dawn's conversation with her mother, it
runs seamlessly through the interwoven stories to a dramatic
conclusion. It's a tribute to how success the "exquisite corpse" or
round-robin way of collaborating can be, in which each contributor
writes his or her bit, without interacting, and then patches them
together. (OK, partly I just wanted to get "exquisite corpse" into
this sentence.)

Among the things I like about this set of stories is that each "Dead
Person" is different--they aren't just parallels of each other. Holden
is a vampire masquerading as a friend, one of many people staked by
Buffy who might otherwise have been her friends; Cassie is an
incarnation of Willow's longing and then avatar of The First, Joyce
is...either herself or an avatar of The First, or both; and Jonathan
is both an avatar of The First and something like a traditional ghost,
haunting murderer. Only the end of the episode, when The First takes
off its Cassie suit, do we begin to understand that the other three
haunts or spirits are also It. Maybe. So at this point in season 7,
The First as an archvillain is still full of, er, potential. It has
the chance to be truly worse and more dangerous than Glory, or any of
the other apocalyptic monsters because it comes from within the main
characters themselves and is quite literally generated by them. Alas,
as the season progressed, this idea proved too hard to sustain, and
The First became a Big Baddy in the Basement, with the usual army of
orcs and a taste for cross-dressing.

But in CWDP It is still completely terrifying in a way that harks back
to the atavistic terrors of the Gentlemen in Hush: creatures of our
own dreams.

> Buffy allegedly opening up mostly just seems like her re-
> telling stories we've already heard. The Buffy/Holden thing is the
> big part that doesn't quite do what it's meant to, being simply an
> entertaining conversation and not the introspective (super)human drama
> that's needed to be the base of a mood-piece episode.

I get more from this part. Perhaps I like it so much because it's just
plain good writing and good acting. Holden isn't as overwrought as
many guest stars on BTVS (frex, Caleb, one of my least favorite
performances in the whole run). His quiet, laconic style is eye-
catching, and he was clearly written by someone with firsthand
knowledge of the way a shrink can toss zingers at a patient in the
nicest possible way. Plus, there is something delicious about the idea
that a really perceptive shrink, one who knows all your foibles and
catches all your tricks of denial and self-delusion (and who therefore
does some real good), is of necessity a cold, heartless bastard, whose
whole bloodsucking profession is vampiric.

> the superiority/inferiority complex thing, which is apparently the big
> punchline of that part of the story, is particularly revealing or even
> lays much foundation for Buffy's future actions. The result is that
> Holden mainly exists as a font of one-liners and a mechanism to reveal
> the plot point about Spike. But enough works that it clicks often.

I guess I didn't see the superiority/inferiority thing as the big
punchline. What came through for me was Buffy's hunger for someone to
talk to--someone who would listen without judging her, would
sympathize without neediness, and who would have a sense of what her
life as a relentless killer was like. Holden is, potentially, her
friend. Perhaps the only friend she is ever likely to have who doesn't
want anything from her, or need anything from her, or expect anything
of her. Holden is a natural friend in just the way that Angel or Spike
is a natural lover for Buffy. No one else can relate to her in that
narrow space between superiority and inferiority where she lives
alone.

So I see the punchline as the literal moment in which Buffy kills her
shrink, thereby ensuring that she will never be cured. (Being Buffy,
she finds another means of cure later on, but we don't know that yet.)
CWDP is the first indication in S7 that the series might really end on
a tragic note, with Buffy sacrificing herself once and for all.

> Sure, the actors are on top of their game, and the jokes have a high
> success rate (I kinda want to see the longest version of the "check"
> scene that Strong and Lenk were able to manage, as mentioned on the
> commentary). And sure, Willow's part is quite heart-wrenching, and
> the twists at the end (all of them, but especially Spike) are real
> shocks. There's more to it. The teaser's tone persists through the
> whole thing, because the way the four storylines are cut together lets
> them balance each other out. One would think the screechiness of the
> Dawn part in particular would clash horrifically with the pensive
> Buffy and Willow sequences, but as some people have pointed out, the
> haunted house provides the episode with an infusion of action.

I disliked the haunted house for two reasons. Dawn is at her most
childishly screechy and helpless; that song has been sung once too
often. And the gore and monsters and broken glass are mere
distractions from what should have been truly interesting and
terrifying: the return of Joyce as an instrument of evil. Alas, with
all the blood dripping on walls and whatnot, there isn't much doubt
that this is Evil!Joyce. Her attempts to drive a wedge of distrust
between Dawn and Buffy are lame, and never amount to much. (Would that
they had: it might have provided more plausible motivation for Dawn
later agreeing to evict Buffy from the house.)

~Mal

On Apr 6, 9:43 pm, malspera...@yahoo.com wrote:

> I disliked the haunted house for two reasons. Dawn is at her most
> childishly screechy and helpless; that song has been sung once too
> often. And the gore and monsters and broken glass are mere
> distractions from what should have been truly interesting and
> terrifying: the return of Joyce as an instrument of evil. Alas, with
> all the blood dripping on walls and whatnot, there isn't much doubt
> that this is Evil!Joyce. Her attempts to drive a wedge of distrust
> between Dawn and Buffy are lame, and never amount to much. (Would that
> they had: it might have provided more plausible motivation for Dawn
> later agreeing to evict Buffy from the house.)

Well, I had a different take on both counts. I'm not a huge fan of
Dawn screaming so continuously (although Trachtenberg is indeed a good
screamer), but she's not at her most helpless here. She's the one
walking over broken class and throwing hurried spells around. The
other disagreement is about Joyce; I don't think it's at all clear
that Joyce is the First, although we're meant to consider it as a
possibility without being certain (much like the characters do in
"Sleeper"). I think there's a large amount of doubt, to this day.
Within the context of CWDP, I think Joyce's contribution is meant to
be minimal and, above all, mysterious, rather than terrifying. No, it
never amounts to much, but I don't think this episode can be blamed
for any pof that.

-AOQ

> The First as an archvillain is still full of, er, potential. It has
> the chance to be truly worse and more dangerous than Glory, or any of
> the other apocalyptic monsters because it comes from within the main
> characters themselves and is quite literally generated by them. Alas,
> as the season progressed, this idea proved too hard to sustain, and
> The First became a Big Baddy in the Basement, with the usual army of
> orcs and a taste for cross-dressing.

the idea is the only real power the devil has
is the power you give it

Jareth: *Everything*! Everything that you wanted I have done. You asked that the
child be taken. I took him. You cowered before me, I was frightening. I have
reordered time. I have turned the world upside down, and I have done it all for
*you*! I am exhausted from living up to your expectations of me. Isn't that
generous?

buffy cant destroy it
but once she rejects it and tells it get out of her face
it has no power over her

death evil fear etc are always going to be here
but whether they control you or not is your coice

> all the blood dripping on walls and whatnot, there isn't much doubt
> that this is Evil!Joyce. Her attempts to drive a wedge of distrust
> between Dawn and Buffy are lame, and never amount to much. (Would that
> they had: it might have provided more plausible motivation for Dawn
> later agreeing to evict Buffy from the house.)

i assumed this was part of dawns motivation
a splinter in her mood

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

I agree. Dawn is actually a lot stronger here than in most episodes and I
always thought Joyce was the real Joyce and the evil was an agent of the
First trying to block her from appearing to Dawn. Will probably never know
for sure, but that was always my take on it.

As to her comment about Buffy not being there for Dawn, she really wasn't.
Dawn was continuously proving that season that she could handle herself
quite a bit, so when it came down to Buffy stopping the First, she left Dawn
on her own to take care of herself, therefore, she didn't choose protecting
Dawn over saving the world. I thought Joyce's comment as a warning to Dawn
to take care of herself - be strong for herself without relying on Buffy.

Lori


--
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LAB Enterprises - orders@labeshops.com
Read our blog with links to all our stores at www.Labeshops.com



"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:e413b701-6846-4c3a-96ab-78e9b278c109@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 6, 9:43 pm, malspera...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> I disliked the haunted house for two reasons. Dawn is at her most
>> childishly screechy and helpless; that song has been sung once too
>> often. And the gore and monsters and broken glass are mere
>> distractions from what should have been truly interesting and
>> terrifying: the return of Joyce as an instrument of evil. Alas, with
>> all the blood dripping on walls and whatnot, there isn't much doubt
>> that this is Evil!Joyce. Her attempts to drive a wedge of distrust
>> between Dawn and Buffy are lame, and never amount to much. (Would that
>> they had: it might have provided more plausible motivation for Dawn
>> later agreeing to evict Buffy from the house.)
>
> Well, I had a different take on both counts. I'm not a huge fan of
> Dawn screaming so continuously (although Trachtenberg is indeed a good
> screamer), but she's not at her most helpless here. She's the one
> walking over broken class and throwing hurried spells around. The
> other disagreement is about Joyce; I don't think it's at all clear
> that Joyce is the First, although we're meant to consider it as a
> possibility without being certain (much like the characters do in
> "Sleeper"). I think there's a large amount of doubt, to this day.
> Within the context of CWDP, I think Joyce's contribution is meant to
> be minimal and, above all, mysterious, rather than terrifying. No, it
> never amounts to much, but I don't think this episode can be blamed
> for any pof that.
>
> -AOQ

On Apr 7, 12:21 am, Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 9:43 pm, malspera...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I disliked the haunted house for two reasons. Dawn is at her most
> > childishly screechy and helpless; that song has been sung once too
> > often. And the gore and monsters and broken glass are mere
> > distractions from what should have been truly interesting and
> > terrifying: the return of Joyce as an instrument of evil. Alas, with
> > all the blood dripping on walls and whatnot, there isn't much doubt
> > that this is Evil!Joyce. Her attempts to drive a wedge of distrust
> > between Dawn and Buffy are lame, and never amount to much. (Would that
> > they had: it might have provided more plausible motivation for Dawn
> > later agreeing to evict Buffy from the house.)
>
> Well, I had a different take on both counts.  I'm not a huge fan of
> Dawn screaming so continuously (although Trachtenberg is indeed a good
> screamer), but she's not at her most helpless here.  She's the one
> walking over broken glass and throwing hurried spells around.  

I suppose that by Dawn's usual standards that's effective. OTOH,
hanging up the phone, not getting the hell out of the house...

> The
> other disagreement is about Joyce; I don't think it's at all clear
> that Joyce is the First, although we're meant to consider it as a
> possibility without being certain (much like the characters do in
> "Sleeper").  I think there's a large amount of doubt, to this day.

It ought to be open to question--that's certainly the idea, and if one
can keep the ambiguity in place, it's a great idea. But too much
militates against it. One has to ask, why and how does Joyce show up
at *this* juncture, in *this* way, simultaneously with the first
manifestations of The First, and in the context of a massive, violent
haunting? If she is not The First, then she is appearing to... what,
warn Dawn? OK, but she warns Dawn about Buffy, not the First. To
attack Dawn? To ask Dawn to come to her rescue? None of which gets any
follow-up. Unlike the other 3 Conversations, this one throws out a
bunch of possible plotlines, none of which gets any further
development.

> Within the context of CWDP, I think Joyce's contribution is meant to
> be minimal and, above all, mysterious, rather than terrifying.

Agreed, but

> No, it never amounts to much, but I don't think this episode can be blamed
> for any of that.

Meh. If I were king of the writers' room, I'd have done away with all
the broken glass and howling wind and blood on the walls and guys
dressed in lizard suits. The appearance by Joyce would have been quite
enough on its own, indeed stronger. The tenor of the rest of the
episode is one of quiet but steadily increasing threat of a nature
difficult to define, intangible and profound, not old-school haunted
houses--which we have learned, after 6.2 seasons, are easily overcome
by our heroes. If, as mariposas points out downthread, the looming
danger is huge and genuinely apocalyptic *because* it comes from
within, then a scene between Dawn and her mother alone would have
presented exactly that tension: Is it Joyce or is it the First, or is
it both, flickering in and out of one another?

There have been other fine episodes without a lot of shoot-em-up
action; I felt only relief every time we switched away from Dawn's
lipsticked, shrieking mouth to the pastoral serenity of the graveyard
and the library. A serenity which was, of course, wholly specious, and
therefore interesting.

~Mal

"mariposas rand mair fheal" <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-BE294C.01171407042008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> The First as an archvillain is still full of, er, potential. It has
>> the chance to be truly worse and more dangerous than Glory, or any of
>> the other apocalyptic monsters because it comes from within the main
>> characters themselves and is quite literally generated by them. Alas,
>> as the season progressed, this idea proved too hard to sustain, and
>> The First became a Big Baddy in the Basement, with the usual army of
>> orcs and a taste for cross-dressing.
>
> the idea is the only real power the devil has
> is the power you give it
>
> Jareth: *Everything*! Everything that you wanted I have done. You asked
> that the
> child be taken. I took him. You cowered before me, I was frightening. I
> have
> reordered time. I have turned the world upside down, and I have done it
> all for
> *you*! I am exhausted from living up to your expectations of me. Isn't
> that
> generous?
>
> buffy cant destroy it
> but once she rejects it and tells it get out of her face
> it has no power over her
>
> death evil fear etc are always going to be here
> but whether they control you or not is your coice

The First's power also manifests as an army of surrogates threatening to
force their will upon Buffy and her army. And with Caleb, we also see the
First bestowing power upon somebody. (The first ubervamp probably got the
same kind of power boost too.)

Your theory is good - and probably accurate to a point. But I don't think
the concept of the First is that singular.

If you look at the greater power metaphor, and it's connection to feminist
theory, then yes, granting the power to others is part of it. I think self
empowerment is definitely part of the story. But another part of the story
is forced enslavement - doling out power to the selected few according to
slavemaster's choice. Or, put another way, wanting the power and refusing
to grant it to others is necessary, but insufficient in itself. You also
need access to the tools of power, which can be forcibly held from you and
used against you.

The First worked actively to get Buffy and others to hand their power over
to it. But it also acted coercively. And indirectly to withhold power.
You'll note that it took a while for the First to approach Buffy directly.
It's primary approach appears to be through others in order to separate
Buffy from the people around her - her true source of power. (Or perhaps
more properly, "their" true source of power. They overcome as a group.)

Another more oblique aspect is the influence of cultural norms. (I think
it's harder to see because it's harder to represent through the First.)
Especially in how it brings pressure through weight of numbers. In the
Sunnydale sense of evil brought to life so that it can be slayed, that would
probably be represented by the ubervamp army, whose size alone is so
intimidating. They're the lynch mob that won't tolerate acts of
independence. The greater impact, however, is within her own circle of
friends, who resist personal empowerment, and who turn against her in
various ways.

Returning to your notion that "the only real power the devil has is the
power you give it," which I don't mean to diminish, that regains prominence
when combined with the leadership theme of the season. A leader's true
power is drawn from the consent of his/her followers. Buffy can't succeed
without her army. The First is nothing without its mob. With them they can
engage in the coercive exercise of naked power.

That returns us to "Big Baddy in the Basement." I always liked Caleb,
leading up to the great battle of armies. I think Malsperanza is right that
the late season move diminishes somewhat the sense of battle within each
character, replacing it with the more traditional external foe. But I
approve of that for a couple of reasons. First is that this is conclusion
of the series, and I think it's important that it remain true to its core
concept of internal battles manifested as physical monsters that can be
slain. Secondly, as explained a few ways above, there's an important
external component to this struggle for empowerment. Those external forces
will indeed seek to repress through the brutal exercise of physical force.
I believe the story necessarily eventually devolves into a physical clash of
cultures where the Slayer army wins its independence from the oppression of
the evil overlord and its mob. (To the victor goes the framing.) Season 7
ultimately is less about an introspective kind of liberation than it is
about revolutionary triumph.

OBS

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:e413b701-6846-4c3a-96ab-78e9b278c109@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 6, 9:43 pm, malspera...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> I disliked the haunted house for two reasons. Dawn is at her most
>> childishly screechy and helpless; that song has been sung once too
>> often. And the gore and monsters and broken glass are mere
>> distractions from what should have been truly interesting and
>> terrifying: the return of Joyce as an instrument of evil. Alas, with
>> all the blood dripping on walls and whatnot, there isn't much doubt
>> that this is Evil!Joyce. Her attempts to drive a wedge of distrust
>> between Dawn and Buffy are lame, and never amount to much. (Would that
>> they had: it might have provided more plausible motivation for Dawn
>> later agreeing to evict Buffy from the house.)
>
> Well, I had a different take on both counts. I'm not a huge fan of
> Dawn screaming so continuously (although Trachtenberg is indeed a good
> screamer), but she's not at her most helpless here. She's the one
> walking over broken class and throwing hurried spells around. The
> other disagreement is about Joyce; I don't think it's at all clear
> that Joyce is the First, although we're meant to consider it as a
> possibility without being certain (much like the characters do in
> "Sleeper"). I think there's a large amount of doubt, to this day.
> Within the context of CWDP, I think Joyce's contribution is meant to
> be minimal and, above all, mysterious, rather than terrifying. No, it
> never amounts to much, but I don't think this episode can be blamed
> for any pof that.

I've generally assumed that Joyce was one of the First's creations simply
because her message to Dawn fits into the general objective of separating
Buffy from her friends. Lacking clear evidence to the contrary, I continue
to go with that. But I don't believe that it's ever obvious. Nor does it
get clarified. (Joyce's appearances to Buffy only confuse it further.) I
think that you're right that mysterious is what they're going after most.

OBS

On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:13:32 -0400, "LAB Enterprises" <news@labeshops.com>
wrote:

>I agree. Dawn is actually a lot stronger here than in most episodes and I
>always thought Joyce was the real Joyce and the evil was an agent of the
>First trying to block her from appearing to Dawn. Will probably never know
>for sure, but that was always my take on it.

Well, we do know the author's intent, for what that's worth. Jane Espenson
(who wrote the Dawn Home Alone part) has said unequivocably in interviews
that the Joyce in CWDP is The First.



--
.... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)

> "mariposas rand mair fheal" <mair_fh...@yahoo.com> wrote :

> >> The First as an archvillain is still full of, er, potential. It has
> >> the chance to be truly worse and more dangerous than Glory, or any of
> >> the other apocalyptic monsters because it comes from within the main
> >> characters themselves and is quite literally generated by them. Alas,
> >> as the season progressed, this idea proved too hard to sustain, and
> >> The First became a Big Baddy in the Basement, with the usual army of
> >> orcs and a taste for cross-dressing.
>
> > the idea is the only real power the devil has
> > is the power you give it
>
> > Jareth: *Everything*! Everything that you wanted I have done. You asked
> > that the
> > child be taken. I took him. You cowered before me, I was frightening. I
> > have
> > reordered time. I have turned the world upside down, and I have done it
> > all for
> > *you*! I am exhausted from living up to your expectations of me. Isn't
> > that
> > generous?
>
> > buffy cant destroy it
> > but once she rejects it and tells it get out of her face
> > it has no power over her
>
> > death evil fear etc are always going to be here
> > but whether they control you or not is your choice

OBS:

> The First's power also manifests as an army of surrogates threatening to
> force their will upon Buffy and her army. And with Caleb, we also see the
> First bestowing power upon somebody. (The first ubervamp probably got the
> same kind of power boost too.)

You've hit on the reason why I so dislike Caleb and to some degree the
Ubervamp(s). The season was on track with the First: it was a
different kind of evil, the kind that really might win. It was a
culmination of all the lessons learned about evil-from-within in S6,
plus the "it's about [Godlike] power" of S5. IT made enormous sense
for the way the story was going to end, and should end: with Good-from-
within triumphing *by* rejecting the hoarding of power, and endorsing
its redistribution. That, together with the combining of different
kinds of power that had always been the hallmark of the Scoobies. And
indeed, that's how the season and the story ended, and I am satisfied
by that.

It's my sense that Caleb and the Ubers were created mainly because the
individual episodes needed fight scenes, especially the kind that
would scare teenage girls: involving rampant hulking figures of
steroidized, testosterone-driven masculinity. Otherwise the season
would have gotten very confusing, with massive fight scenes between,
say, Xander and A Thing that Looks Like Joyce, or Dawn and A Thing
that Looks Like a Cool Boyfriend, etc. Not to mention that it would
have gotten very talky. The arc promised by Buffy's conversation with
Holden would have been an arc of battles of wits and wiles: evil
subverting good, and good countersubverting evil.

Personally, I might have liked a season that looked a little more like
that--and it would have been given Giles (and in some ways Willow,
Xander, and Spike) better things to do. Despite Giles's lifelong
message, everyone spends a lot of time in S7 doubting that good can
beat evil just by thinking. (Willow: "You know Buffy? Nice girl, not
that bright?" Spike: "I follow my blood, which doesn't exactly flow in
the direction of my brain.") But that's what Buffy does. She ignores
the physical challenges of the Ubers and Caleb, the haunts and
ghosties, and thinks the problem through. This is exemplified by the
way she finds the Scythe: by challenging Caleb to a duel in which
neither of them ever lands a blow. As soon as she learns to fight by
not being hit, Caleb can't win.

One of the biggest pleasures for me in S7 is watching Buffy think
through the core problem and discover the solution without staking or
slicing or punching people. More and more she leaves that to the
others, Wood and Spike especially, while she puzzles it out.

It strikes me that she learns how to puzzle out the problem from
Holden. He does what a good shrink does: teaches her to look at her
inner problems dispassionately, from all angles, and work through
them. The big inner problem for Buffy isn't the one Holden identifies
of feeling both superior and inferior; instead it's the problem of
feeling alone. ("Being the Slayer made me different, but it's my fault
I stayed that way. People are always trying to connect to me, and I
just slip away," she says later to Spike.)

Slipping away is how she defeats Caleb. *Not* slipping away, but
joining, is how she empowers the Potentials. I think she first sees
the problem in her conversation with Holden, and begins that thinking
process with him:

HOLDEN Feels great. Strong. Like I'm connected to a powerful all-
consuming evil that's gonna suck the world into a firey oblivion. How
'bout you?

BUFFY Not so much connected. [...]

HOLDEN Oh. So, when you said not connected, that was kind of a telling
statement, wasn't it?

BUFFY Ah, Psych 101 alert.

HOLDEN Well, I'm just saying.

BUFFY Yeah, what I really need is emotional therapy from the evil
dead.

HOLDEN Hey, it was your phrase.

BUFFY I'm connected. I'm connected to a lot of people, OK.

HOLDEN No. No, I hear ya.

BUFFY I really am.

And then, in "Touched":

BUFFY I cut myself off from them, all of them. [snip] I've always cut
myself off, I've always... being the Slayer made me different but it's
my fault I stayed that way. People are always trying to connect to me
but I just slip away. You should know.

SPIKE I seem to recall a certain amount of connecting.

BUFFY Oh, please. We were never close. You just wanted me because I
was unattainable.

SPIKE You think that's all that was? [snip] Something pissed me off
and I just... unattainable! That's it.

BUFFY Fine. I'm attainable. I'm an attain-athon. Can I please just
go to sleep?

First Holden, then Spike. Two conversations that, when combined, lead
to the solution.

~Mal

OBS:

> That returns us to "Big Baddy in the Basement."  I always liked Caleb,
> leading up to the great battle of armies.  I think Malsperanza is right that
> the late season move diminishes somewhat the sense of battle within each
> character, replacing it with the more traditional external foe.  But I
> approve of that for a couple of reasons.  First is that this is conclusion
> of the series, and I think it's important that it remain true to its core
> concept of internal battles manifested as physical monsters that can be
> slain.  Secondly, as explained a few ways above, there's an important
> external component to this struggle for empowerment.  Those external forces
> will indeed seek to repress through the brutal exercise of physical force.

For me that core concept is satisfied by the gigantic army of orcs in
the basement, the Ubervamps plural, as in the scene in the sewer where
one of the Potentials (Kennedy?) says of the Ubervamp attacking them:
"He's just one guy; we can take him," whereupon a whole bunch more pop
up. Buffy later admonishes them, "There's always more." Mass armies of
monsters in the basement are the theme of this stage of the
apocalyptic war. Individual Evil Bad Guys in the Adam tradition are
out of date.

While the army of the First thus remains consistent, Caleb is too
transparently a physical manifestation of old-school male chauvinism
to suit me. He only works for me when he is serving as the First's
mouthpiece ("You're in the hearts of little children, you're in the
souls of the rich").

>  Season 7 ultimately is less about an introspective kind of liberation than it is
> about revolutionary triumph.

Not sure I agree. Buffy's liberation is entirely introspective and
indeed private--we never do hear the terms of it. It's represented by
the enigmatic Mona Lisa smile.

The world's liberation is another matter. There's some revolutionary
triumph, a battle one, an apocalypse averted, and the baddies are back
in the basement. But Giles has the last real word on that: There's
another Hellmouth in Cleveland, and the world's liberation is once
more postponed.

~Mal

On Apr 7, 4:05 pm, malspera...@yahoo.com wrote:

> One of the biggest pleasures for me in S7 is watching Buffy think
> through the core problem and discover the solution without staking or
> slicing or punching people. More and more she leaves that to the
> others, Wood and Spike especially, while she puzzles it out.
>
> It strikes me that she learns how to puzzle out the problem from
> Holden. He does what a good shrink does: teaches her to look at her
> inner problems dispassionately, from all angles, and work through
> them. The big inner problem for Buffy isn't the one Holden identifies
> of feeling both superior and inferior; instead it's the problem of
> feeling alone.

So, hanging out with Holden turns her thinking in the wrong
direction? The chat just doesn't really say that much about Buffy to
me, no more so than any of the many other looks at her being alone or
singular.

Although it's interesting reading, I have to say that I can't really
feel the connection through the two conversations on either end of the
season to the ending the way you do. But hey, glad it works for
someone.

-AOQ

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