I'll propose a show dealing with the terraformers ships.
They could preparing a different planetary systems for
the human invasion and even waging war on other intelligent species
or making trade or blocking there progress or even selling them
arms to make war on each other. Lots of story lines
possible.

Plus the writers need a science major in the room to keep
them from being so soo stupid.

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:24:08 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1972@gmail.com
|" <trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:

>I'll propose a show dealing with the terraformers ships.
>They could preparing a different planetary systems for
>the human invasion and even waging war on other intelligent species
>or making trade or blocking there progress or even selling them
>arms to make war on each other. Lots of story lines
>possible.

I always thought that the AI for the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica
might have been taken from old automated terraforming ships sent out
from Earth and later rediscovered by the Colonials who saw them as
gifts from the Gods, creating the myth of the Lords of Kobol. I
mention this because I've always enjoyed Battlestar Galactica and felt
that both it and Firefly had a similar visual style (not to mention
the same special effects crew) and appear to obey similar physics.

I've also mentioned in the past that a futuristic version of Have Gun
Will Travel would be perfect if it were set in the Firefly universe.
>
>Plus the writers need a science major in the room to keep
>them from being so soo stupid.

Joss Whedon and his writers tended to avoid technobabble so there
really weren't many glaring science errors in Firefly. The closest I
can think of is the controversy over whether or not Vera could fire
without oxygen and I don't think that was ever settled in this
newsgroup. While it's always good for science fiction shows to have
science consultants, the truth is that the writers rarely listen to
them anyway -- just ask anyone who has ever worked as a science
consultant for a Star Trek series.
--
"Yes, yes, this is a fertile land and we shall thrive. We will rule
over all this land and we will call it,...'This Land.'
I think we should call it your grave!
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
Hah, hah, hah. Mine is an evil laugh."
-- Wash

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/

In article <malet3dmb48s1098ceigark9g23g68n8ok@4ax.com>, Zombie Elvis
<DELETEMETOREPLYrobertocastillo@ameritech.net> wrote:

> I always thought that the AI for the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica
> might have been taken from old automated terraforming ships sent out
> from Earth and later rediscovered by the Colonials who saw them as
> gifts from the Gods, creating the myth of the Lords of Kobol. I
> mention this because I've always enjoyed Battlestar Galactica and felt
> that both it and Firefly had a similar visual style (not to mention
> the same special effects crew) and appear to obey similar physics.

It wouldn't take much "fan-wanking" to connect the two shows. It would
be a comfortable fit. Probably different parts of the 'Verse.
>
> I've also mentioned in the past that a futuristic version of Have Gun
> Will Travel would be perfect if it were set in the Firefly universe.

Like a slightly less crazy Richard Brooks/Jubal Early? Or even: "The
Operative, what he did after" I could see that.

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

http://www.coolscifi.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif What the Firefly universe needs to fly again.
I'll propose a show dealing with the terraformers ships.
They could preparing a different planetary systems for
the human invasion and even waging war on other intelligent species
or making trade or blocking there progress or even selling them
arms to make war on each other. Lots of story lines
possible.

Plus the writers need a science major in the room to keep
them from being so soo stupid.


Hmm, Intelligent beings, Sounds good.

I could see a new large scale war break out among the planets and moons, The Alliance, The Reapers, and of course the reformation of the Browncoats.

I could possibly see ATLEAST a small part of the Alliance fleet going over to the Browncoats, Plus in the T.V series i noticed on one mission they were in the wreck of an Alliance ship, Im assuming there would be more floating out there. Any chance the Browncoats could rebuild and refit this ships for them selves? Even if they only act as stationary defence platforms.

Alliance would have some major issues, Still strong they would first have to deal with the problems that would have arissen in there government and armed forces, And still have problems with the Reapers, Giving time for the Browncoats and 'Free Alliance' (they gotta have a name of some sort, feel free to add one) to Rebuild and prepare.

Reapers is pretty much simple, They will send out strong raiding parties attacking Alliace warships/fleets while keeping the bulk of there force back, Building more ships and increasing there numbers (Got to make it interesting, Reapers thinking tactically, That has to turn a few heads)

Not sure if they all finish the build up around the same time, but either way it will turn into a long bloody war, hell lets add in a new group, A fleet of ships arrive...... From EARTH, Sounds like a good twist.

On Mar 12, 5:21 am, "C.O. Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote:
> In article <malet3dmb48s1098ceigark9g23g68n...@4ax.com>, Zombie Elvis
>
> <DELETEMETOREPLYrobertocasti...@ameritech.net> wrote:
> > I always thought that the AI for the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica
> > might have been taken from old automated terraforming ships sent out
> > from Earth and later rediscovered by the Colonials who saw them as
> > gifts from the Gods, creating the myth of the Lords of Kobol. I
> > mention this because I've always enjoyed Battlestar Galactica and felt
> > that both it and Firefly had a similar visual style (not to mention
> > the same special effects crew) and appear to obey similar physics.
>
> It wouldn't take much "fan-wanking" to connect the two shows. It would
> be a comfortable fit. Probably different parts of the 'Verse.
>
>
>
> > I've also mentioned in the past that a futuristic version of Have Gun
> > Will Travel would be perfect if it were set in the Firefly universe.
>
> Like a slightly less crazy Richard Brooks/Jubal Early? Or even: "The
> Operative, what he did after" I could see that.
>
> --
> //////////    \\\\\\\\\\\
> The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
>             -- Harlan Ellison

Did the "Alien" universe connection with Firefly ever get explored?
Remembering Mal's Duckhunting Gun from the "Serenity" pilot having the
"Weyland Yutani" Logo on the HUD :)

In article
<23f13461-97bd-4e97-b854-8e50024c7642@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Jacke Brown <gpgallagher@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 12, 5:21 am, "C.O. Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote:
> > In article <malet3dmb48s1098ceigark9g23g68n...@4ax.com>, Zombie Elvis
> >> >
> > > I've also mentioned in the past that a futuristic version of Have Gun
> > > Will Travel would be perfect if it were set in the Firefly universe.
> >
> > Like a slightly less crazy Richard Brooks/Jubal Early? Or even: "The
> > Operative, what he did after" I could see that.
> >
>
> Did the "Alien" universe connection with Firefly ever get explored?
> Remembering Mal's Duckhunting Gun from the "Serenity" pilot having the
> "Weyland Yutani" Logo on the HUD :)

I do not recall that. Was this the original, unbroadcast pilot? (Alien
4 Resurrection had a script by Whedon, and recognizable prototypes of
the crew of Serenity. But then again, so did Titan AE)

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

On 12 Mar, 00:24, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> even waging war on other intelligent species or making trade or blocking there progress or even selling them arms to make war on each other. Lots of story lines possible.
>


So basically, ignoring the stuff that made Firefly both:
a) the show it is/was, and:
b) unique.

Aliens do not live amoungst us... there are only inverted, mutated,
unborn cows!!!

Ignore the man in the hat... nothing to see here... move along... move
along.

On Mar 13, 1:32 am, phil.mcpe...@osborne.co.uk wrote:
> On 12 Mar, 00:24, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
>
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > even waging war on other intelligent species or making trade or blockingthere progress or even selling them arms to make war on each other. Lots ofstory lines  possible.
>
> So basically, ignoring the stuff that made Firefly both:
> a) the show it is/was, and:
> b) unique.
>
> Aliens do not live amoungst us... there are only inverted, mutated,
> unborn cows!!!
>
> Ignore the man in the hat... nothing to see here... move along... move
> along.

Actually there was evidence in Firefly that could be used to indicate
that the solar system had previous inhabitents. Recall the sheriff
of one of the mining colony planets indicated that each of the
outpost planets had diseases the require meds from the outside/inner
planets. That could be interpreted as the traces of the life forms
that previous held the specific planet or as enginneered organisms
used to cleanse the planet of previous life forms. Granted, the
diseases
could have been planted to foster dependency to the inner
planets

Anyway the Firefly world view was that of what was in that solar
system.
Yet, clearly mankind was able to make the jump in a timely fashion
from
solar system to solar system. And the controlling powers of the inner
planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
solar
system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was too small
to
make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know which star
systems out
in the wild blue yonder were good places to go.

Had the show gone on for a number of years, something alien/ non-human
might have shown up. Just as Western TV show might have someone
Chinese
or native American play a role in the plot. Hopefully not in the
simple minded fashion of
Star Trek Universe but as other have indicated something truly alien
or hostile.

Recall also the great military vessels were rather well armed
suggesting
an ongoing interest in war. Perhaps it was only the recent civil war
and reapers but perhaps it was something much larger. Perhaps
there were hostile Indians/Aliens in the great upper far beyond of
space ;-)

Recall also terraforming is pretty strongly suggested or implied in
the
Verse or perhaps that was just another of the shows many technical
mistakes. Terraforming would be a big operation implying ships
and people doing it.

This would be a different show and an even darker show. Still the
first show might service the second show and thus jump start it.

In article
<09883627-9bd1-4725-9fca-c52c8c7696ec@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
<"trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 13, 1:32 am, phil.mcpe...@osborne.co.uk wrote:
> > On 12 Mar, 00:24, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
> >
> > <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > even waging war on other intelligent species or making trade or blocking
> > > there progress or even selling them arms to make war on each other. Lots
> > > of story lines  possible.
> >
> > So basically, ignoring the stuff that made Firefly both:
> > a) the show it is/was, and:
> > b) unique.
> >
> > Aliens do not live amoungst us... there are only inverted, mutated,
> > unborn cows!!!
> >
> > Ignore the man in the hat... nothing to see here... move along... move
> > along.
>
> Actually there was evidence in Firefly that could be used to indicate
> that the solar system had previous inhabitents. Recall the sheriff
> of one of the mining colony planets indicated that each of the
> outpost planets had diseases the require meds from the outside/inner
> planets. That could be interpreted as the traces of the life forms
> that previous held the specific planet or as enginneered organisms
> used to cleanse the planet of previous life forms. Granted, the
> diseases
> could have been planted to foster dependency to the inner
> planets

Also, there is a big leap from alien life to INTELLIGENT alien life. We
may find microbes on Mars. It doesn't automatically follow that there
was green 6 limbed Savages. There can be alien life without there being
"Aliens."
>
> Anyway the Firefly world view was that of what was in that solar
> system.
> Yet, clearly mankind was able to make the jump in a timely fashion
> from
> solar system to solar system.
There were ships from Earth that came to the 'Verse. We really don't
know more than that.

> And the controlling powers of the inner
> planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
> solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was too small
> to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know which star
> systems out in the wild blue yonder were good places to go.

Or. perhaps actual "Starships" are the equivalent to the spaceshuttle's
today. And the rest of us have airplanes. None of our DC-3's are
reaching orbit. There could very well be an ongoing exploration of
other solar systems by the Alliance. It wouldn't be in the news every
day. Sort of like spaceshuttle launches today.
>
> Had the show gone on for a number of years, something alien/ non-human
> might have shown up. Just as Western TV show might have someone
> Chinese or native American play a role in the plot. Hopefully not in the
> simple minded fashion of Star Trek Universe but as other have indicated something truly alien
> or hostile.

The REAVERS were pretty hostile.
>
> Recall also the great military vessels were rather well armed
> suggesting an ongoing interest in war. Perhaps it was only the recent civil war
> and reapers but perhaps it was something much larger. Perhaps
> there were hostile Indians/Aliens in the great upper far beyond of
> space ;-)

Sort of like the Majestic-12 conspiracy today. There may be an alien
hostile threat, but it is the deepest of governmental secrets. You have
a point that the Alliance seemed to be overprepared for a peacefull
'verse.
>
> Recall also terraforming is pretty strongly suggested or implied in
> the Verse or perhaps that was just another of the shows many technical
> mistakes. Terraforming would be a big operation implying ships
> and people doing it.
>
> This would be a different show and an even darker show. Still the
> first show might service the second show and thus jump start it.
>

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

>
> Actually there was evidence in Firefly that could be used to indicate
> that the solar system had previous inhabitents. Recall the sheriff
> of one of the mining colony planets indicated that each of the
> outpost planets had diseases the require meds from the outside/inner
> planets. That could be interpreted as the traces of the life forms
> that previous held the specific planet or as enginneered organisms
> used to cleanse the planet of previous life forms. Granted, the
> diseases
> could have been planted to foster dependency to the inner
> planets

Also, there is a big leap from alien life to INTELLIGENT alien life. We
may find microbes on Mars. It doesn't automatically follow that there
was green 6 limbed Savages. There can be alien life without there being
"Aliens."

I have to agree with C.O Jones

He actually said each planet had there problems when they were terraformed, Never did the sheriff once say anything sujesting alien life, You cant expect a planet nothing like Earth to be terraformed and not have health issues, And simple fact is, What about all the diseases on Earth, Oh no we must have had alien life on here

>
> Anyway the Firefly world view was that of what was in that solar
> system.
> Yet, clearly mankind was able to make the jump in a timely fashion
> from
> solar system to solar system.
There were ships from Earth that came to the 'Verse. We really don't
know more than that.

Once again, Never mentioned how long the trip from Earth took to find this solar system. As far as i can guess they would have had to be inside stasis pods for such a trip, There ships only showed signs of sub light engines, it may have taken hundreds of years.

> And the controlling powers of the inner
> planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
> solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was too small
> to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know which star
> systems out in the wild blue yonder were good places to go.

Or. perhaps actual "Starships" are the equivalent to the spaceshuttle's
today. And the rest of us have airplanes. None of our DC-3's are
reaching orbit. There could very well be an ongoing exploration of
other solar systems by the Alliance. It wouldn't be in the news every
day. Sort of like spaceshuttle launches today.

The Firefly class transport like most transports are capable of going from planet to planet with ease but no where near capable to travel outside the solar system,
1. They wouldnt have the supplies
2. They wouldnt have the fuel capacity
As for the Alliance "Starships", they were just patrol, Hunt down pirates and criminals. I highly delt they went out in search of other solar systems, Once again sub light engines only as far as we know, May take hundreds of years atleast, Possibly thousands.

>
> Had the show gone on for a number of years, something alien/ non-human
> might have shown up. Just as Western TV show might have someone
> Chinese or native American play a role in the plot. Hopefully not in the
> simple minded fashion of Star Trek Universe but as other have indicated something truly alien
> or hostile.

The REAVERS were pretty hostile.

Yup, Reapers where hostile, Human but not human, Sounds alien enought to me, Fierce, aggresive, evil, no remorse, kill with out an issue, major issue with the Alliance, And with the reaper fleet, Alliance is in alot of trouble.

>
> Recall also the great military vessels were rather well armed
> suggesting an ongoing interest in war. Perhaps it was only the recent civil war
> and reapers but perhaps it was something much larger. Perhaps
> there were hostile Indians/Aliens in the great upper far beyond of
> space ;-)

Sort of like the Majestic-12 conspiracy today. There may be an alien
hostile threat, but it is the deepest of governmental secrets. You have
a point that the Alliance seemed to be overprepared for a peacefull
'verse.

The 'Verse was far from peaceful, Reapers, pirates, organised crime, etc, They had alot of enemys.
And why would some one with such a vaste area of space to defend leave it un defended, Lot of solar system out there, Easy for a few planets to rise up and kick there ***, America is a so called peacefull nation, But they have hundreds of nukes, almost a dozen Nimitz class aircraft carriers, plus a few more, a couple battle ships, dozens if not hundreds of cruisers and hundreds of destroyers and frigates, along with a sizable submarine fleet. And there airforce....A very peaceful nation.

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:35:06 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1972@gmail.com
|" <trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mar 13, 1:32 am, phil.mcpe...@osborne.co.uk wrote:
>> On 12 Mar, 00:24, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
>>
>> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > even waging war on other intelligent species or making trade or blocking there progress or even selling them arms to make war on each other. Lots of story lines  possible.
>>
>> So basically, ignoring the stuff that made Firefly both:
>> a) the show it is/was, and:
>> b) unique.
>>
>> Aliens do not live amoungst us... there are only inverted, mutated,
>> unborn cows!!!
>>
>> Ignore the man in the hat... nothing to see here... move along... move
>> along.
>
>Actually there was evidence in Firefly that could be used to indicate
>that the solar system had previous inhabitents. Recall the sheriff
>of one of the mining colony planets indicated that each of the
>outpost planets had diseases the require meds from the outside/inner
>planets. That could be interpreted as the traces of the life forms
>that previous held the specific planet or as enginneered organisms
>used to cleanse the planet of previous life forms. Granted, the
>diseases
>could have been planted to foster dependency to the inner
>planets
>
"Every planet that's been terraformed has its own little quirks. Turns
out that the air down underground mixed up with the ore processors is
a recipe for Boden's. Everybody gets it miners, dumpers, hell I got, I
ain't ever set foot in a mine." -- the sheriff

The sheriff from "The Train Job" believes that his planet's illness is
an environmental problem. Now we can speculate on why it occurred and
that The Alliance wants the disease to be prevalent because it keeps
the planet dependent upon imported Alliance meds. But it's simpler to
take his statement at face value -- that the terraforming process is
not perfect and that it's easier and cheaper for The Alliance to
provide meds for people who get sick from pollution than it is for
them to perfect the terraforming process.

>Anyway the Firefly world view was that of what was in that solar
>system.
>Yet, clearly mankind was able to make the jump in a timely fashion
>from
>solar system to solar system. And the controlling powers of the inner

That doesn't seem very clear to me. Firefly is set five hundred years
in the future and the Alliance appears to be confined to one solar
system. And as far as we know, it is the only system inhabited by
humans.

>planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
>solar
>system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was too small
>to
>make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know which star
>systems out
>in the wild blue yonder were good places to go.

Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very big
and no one has had to leave it.
>
>Had the show gone on for a number of years, something alien/ non-human
>might have shown up. Just as Western TV show might have someone
>Chinese
>or native American play a role in the plot. Hopefully not in the
>simple minded fashion of
>Star Trek Universe but as other have indicated something truly alien
>or hostile.

I always got the impression that Firefly's "big bad" was The
Alliance/Blue Sun which through a combination of sheer size, misplaced
idealism, and bureaucratic incompetence caused disasters like the
tragedy on Miranda and the creation of the Reavers.

>Recall also the great military vessels were rather well armed
>suggesting
>an ongoing interest in war. Perhaps it was only the recent civil war
>and reapers but perhaps it was something much larger. Perhaps
>there were hostile Indians/Aliens in the great upper far beyond of
>space ;-)
>
The civil war between the Alliance and the Independents appears to
have affected the entire system. That's plenty big and provides plenty
of reason for the giant Alliance ships. The Reavers were essentially
Firefly's Indian/aliens and they were right there on the edge of space
ready to attack border worlds at any time.

>Recall also terraforming is pretty strongly suggested or implied in
>the
>Verse or perhaps that was just another of the shows many technical
>mistakes. Terraforming would be a big operation implying ships
>and people doing it.
>
Terraforming wasn't suggested or implied. It was stated outright many
times. In "Serenity," the pilot, in "The Train Job," in "Shindig," in
"The Message," and in the movie.

>This would be a different show and an even darker show. Still the
>first show might service the second show and thus jump start it.

In "Shindig" you have slavers bragging about kidnapping people over a
game of pool and of selling them into slavery for terraforming crews
which we are told have "a prodigious death rate." In the movie we find
out that the Reavers were created by the government interfering with
the terraforming process in an accident which killed off the entire
population of a planet and that the government hid its existence from
the rest of the planets under its control. We've seen government
sponsored agents murder an entire platoon of government soldiers.
We've seen Reavers slaughter people like cattle. That all sounds
pretty dark to me.
--
"Yes, yes, this is a fertile land and we shall thrive. We will rule
over all this land and we will call it,...'This Land.'
I think we should call it your grave!
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
Hah, hah, hah. Mine is an evil laugh."
-- Wash

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 22:21:27 -0700, "C.O. Jones"
<apair@solidbrass.com> wrote:

>////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
>The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
> -- Harlan Ellison

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Harlan. Stupidity is more of a
catalyst. It causes a reaction, but isn't changed, used up or
destroyed by the reaction. So, unfortunately, stupidity carries on,
apparently existing forever, leaving chaos and destruction in its
wake. :-/


x@y.zzz

"Politicians are conniving, wheeler-dealing scum. Don't have a fit of morals
over them; they wouldn't, over you."
--Harry Pearce, "MI-5"

In article <vsqlt3ljpdlagvh70ap1eco3e42rt876ap@4ax.com>,
Zombie Elvis <DELETEMETOREPLYrobertocastillo@ameritech.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:35:06 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1972@gmail.com
> |" <trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Every planet that's been terraformed has its own little quirks.
> Turns out that the air down underground mixed up with the ore
> processors is a recipe for Boden's. Everybody gets it miners,
> dumpers, hell I got, I ain't ever set foot in a mine." -- the sheriff
>
> The sheriff from "The Train Job" believes that his planet's illness
> is an environmental problem. Now we can speculate on why it occurred
> and that The Alliance wants the disease to be prevalent because it
> keeps the planet dependent upon imported Alliance meds. But it's
> simpler to take his statement at face value -- that the terraforming
> process is not perfect and that it's easier and cheaper for The
> Alliance to provide meds for people who get sick from pollution than
> it is for them to perfect the terraforming process.

Still cheaper in the long run to fix the problem, or give the miners
proper respirators so they don't have to breath the contaminated air.


>
> >Anyway the Firefly world view was that of what was in that solar
> >system. Yet, clearly mankind was able to make the jump in a timely
> >fashion from solar system to solar system. And the controlling
> >powers of the inner
>
> That doesn't seem very clear to me. Firefly is set five hundred years
> in the future and the Alliance appears to be confined to one solar
> system. And as far as we know, it is the only system inhabited by
> humans.

Still, they have demonstrated the ability to colonize one other solar
system, and to terraform marginal planets quickly. If it can be done
once, it can be done again.


>
> >planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
> >solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was too
> >small to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know which
> >star systems out in the wild blue yonder were good places to go.
>
> Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very big
> and no one has had to leave it.

Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
striking out into the black to find another system, far from Alliance
control.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

Don Sample wrote:
> In article <vsqlt3ljpdlagvh70ap1eco3e42rt876ap@4ax.com>,

<snip>

>> Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very big
>> and no one has had to leave it.
>
> Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
> Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
> striking out into the black to find another system, far from Alliance
> control.

They would still need terraforming, so I think it would need to be a large
group equipped with enough resources to do it.

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

> On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:35:06 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1972@gmail.com
> |" <trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Every planet that's been terraformed has its own little quirks.
> Turns out that the air down underground mixed up with the ore
> processors is a recipe for Boden's. Everybody gets it miners,
> dumpers, hell I got, I ain't ever set foot in a mine." -- the sheriff
>
> The sheriff from "The Train Job" believes that his planet's illness
> is an environmental problem. Now we can speculate on why it occurred
> and that The Alliance wants the disease to be prevalent because it
> keeps the planet dependent upon imported Alliance meds. But it's
> simpler to take his statement at face value -- that the terraforming
> process is not perfect and that it's easier and cheaper for The
> Alliance to provide meds for people who get sick from pollution than
> it is for them to perfect the terraforming process.

Don Sample:
>Still cheaper in the long run to fix the problem, or give the miners
>proper respirators so they don't have to breath the contaminated air.

Just couse every planet terraformed has its only little quirks doesnt meen there is something wrong with the terraforming process, It just means that each planet is different, If there was something wrong with the process then wouldnt that imply that the problems on the planets be the same or very similar, Yet they are all completely different.

>
> >Anyway the Firefly world view was that of what was in that solar
> >system. Yet, clearly mankind was able to make the jump in a timely
> >fashion from solar system to solar system. And the controlling
> >powers of the inner
>
> That doesn't seem very clear to me. Firefly is set five hundred years
> in the future and the Alliance appears to be confined to one solar
> system. And as far as we know, it is the only system inhabited by
> humans.

>Still, they have demonstrated the ability to colonize one other solar
>system, and to terraform marginal planets quickly. If it can be done
>once, it can be done again.

And the point of the Alliance building a fleet of dozens of MASSIVE! ships to travel hundreds of years to another solar system out of reach of Alliance control would be?
They wouldnt have any way to control them, So there is no way the Alliance would put resources into a pointless operation.

>
> >planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
> >solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was too
> >small to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know which
> >star systems out in the wild blue yonder were good places to go.
>
> Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very big
> and no one has had to leave it.

>Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
>Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
>striking out into the black to find another system, far from Alliance
>control.

No way they would be able to do it, it would require 10 years minimum of preperation and construction, the war lasted what? 5 years. And would they be taking all there people or just a small group, Couse i highly delt they would leave behind there people. i think they would rather fight.

Oh and just out of curiosity, If they were able to build 20-60 massive ships somehow, Wouldnt you just build 20-60 Kick *** warships, It would have easily defended a dozen planets.

In article <dsample-C31AA1.14493715032008@news.giganews.com>, Don
Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote:

> > >planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
> > >solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was too
> > >small to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know which
> > >star systems out in the wild blue yonder were good places to go.
> >
> > Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very big
> > and no one has had to leave it.
>
> Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
> Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
> striking out into the black to find another system, far from Alliance
> control.

It should only take a hundred years one way...

--
Al
----------------------------------
Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality.
-- Jules de Gaultier

Al Gore wrote:
> In article <dsample-C31AA1.14493715032008@news.giganews.com>, Don
> Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote:
>
>>>> planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
>>>> solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was
>>>> too small to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know
>>>> which star systems out in the wild blue yonder were good places to
>>>> go.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very
>>> big and no one has had to leave it.
>>
>> Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
>> Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
>> striking out into the black to find another system, far from Alliance
>> control.
>
> It should only take a hundred years one way...

So, you know the location, the distance and the speed?

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

In article <47dd1edf$0$14354$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter Valentijn
<liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Al Gore wrote:
> > In article <dsample-C31AA1.14493715032008@news.giganews.com>, Don
> > Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote:
> >
> >>>> planet could have limited the flow of information from outside that
> >>>> solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class ship was
> >>>> too small to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply didn't know
> >>>> which star systems out in the wild blue yonder were good places to
> >>>> go.
> >>>
> >>> Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very
> >>> big and no one has had to leave it.
> >>
> >> Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
> >> Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
> >> striking out into the black to find another system, far from Alliance
> >> control.
> >
> > It should only take a hundred years one way...
>
> So, you know the location, the distance and the speed?

Of course. Didn't you get the memo as well?

Naturally, if they are just "striking out" into the black with no
specific location or distance, it could take millions of years without
light speed. The light speed that many people INSIST has to be
available to everyone in the 'verse.

--
Al
----------------------------------
Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality.
-- Jules de Gaultier

Al Gore wrote:
> In article <47dd1edf$0$14354$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter
> Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
>> Al Gore wrote:
>>> In article <dsample-C31AA1.14493715032008@news.giganews.com>, Don
>>> Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> planet could have limited the flow of information from outside
>>>>>> that solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class
>>>>>> ship was too small to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply
>>>>>> didn't know which star systems out in the wild blue yonder were
>>>>>> good places to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very
>>>>> big and no one has had to leave it.
>>>>
>>>> Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
>>>> Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
>>>> striking out into the black to find another system, far from
>>>> Alliance control.
>>>
>>> It should only take a hundred years one way...
>>
>> So, you know the location, the distance and the speed?
>
> Of course. Didn't you get the memo as well?
>

Err...
My mail box has this shredder function. It randomly switches on. A bit
awkward sometimes.


> Naturally, if they are just "striking out" into the black with no
> specific location or distance, it could take millions of years without
> light speed. The light speed that many people INSIST has to be
> available to everyone in the 'verse.

and of which there is no real indication.


--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

In article <47dd44ef$0$14356$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter Valentijn
<liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Al Gore wrote:
> > In article <47dd1edf$0$14354$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter
> > Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >
> >> Al Gore wrote:
> >>> In article <dsample-C31AA1.14493715032008@news.giganews.com>, Don
> >>> Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> planet could have limited the flow of information from outside
> >>>>>> that solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class
> >>>>>> ship was too small to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply
> >>>>>> didn't know which star systems out in the wild blue yonder were
> >>>>>> good places to go.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very
> >>>>> big and no one has had to leave it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
> >>>> Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
> >>>> striking out into the black to find another system, far from
> >>>> Alliance control.
> >>>
> >>> It should only take a hundred years one way...
> >>
> >> So, you know the location, the distance and the speed?
> >
> > Of course. Didn't you get the memo as well?
> >
>
> Err...
> My mail box has this shredder function. It randomly switches on. A bit
> awkward sometimes.
>
Damn email. Doesn't it KNOW we want some of that spam? ;-)
>
> > Naturally, if they are just "striking out" into the black with no
> > specific location or distance, it could take millions of years without
> > light speed. The light speed that many people INSIST has to be
> > available to everyone in the 'verse.
>
> and of which there is no real indication.

I think the confusion comes from OTHER SciFi shows having it, and the
belief that, just like present "real world" unified science, that ALL
the futures portrayed on the telly is somehow connected. Star Trek has
aliens, BSG has jump capability, therefore, so MUST the 'Verse.

The other choice is that by present known science, FTL travel is
impossible, therefore it will NEVER be possible.

--
Al
----------------------------------
Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality.
-- Jules de Gaultier

>The other choice is that by present known science, FTL travel is
>impossible, therefore it will NEVER be possible.

Not in possible, just improbalbbbbbbb ahh dammit, never ever get ono a forums with a hang ovet

l0l

On Mar 16, 8:03 am, "Wouter Valentijn" <l...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> Al Gore wrote:
> > In article <47dd1edf$0$14354$e4fe5...@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter
> > Valentijn <l...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
> >> Al Gore wrote:
> >>> In article <dsample-C31AA1.14493715032...@news.giganews.com>, Don
> >>> Sample <dsam...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> planet could have limited the flow of information from outside
> >>>>>> that solar system. It could have been that the Firefly class
> >>>>>> ship was too small to make the jump or perhaps its crew simply
> >>>>>> didn't know which star systems out in the wild blue yonder were
> >>>>>> good places to go.
>
> >>>>> Or perhaps, as the show implies, the Firefly solar system is very
> >>>>> big and no one has had to leave it.
>
> >>>> Among other things, you'd think some of the malcontents (or
> >>>> Malcontents) on the losing end of the civil war might think about
> >>>> striking out into the black to find another system, far from
> >>>> Alliance control.
>
> >>> It should only take a hundred years one way...
>
> >> So, you know the location, the distance and the speed?
>
> > Of course. Didn't you get the memo as well?
>
> Err...
> My mail box has this shredder function. It randomly switches on. A bit
> awkward sometimes.
>
> > Naturally, if they are just "striking out" into the black with no
> > specific location or distance, it could take millions of years without
> > light speed. The light speed that many people INSIST has to be
> > available to everyone in the 'verse.
>
> and of which there is no real indication.


The time frame is the indication. The show set something
like 500 years in the future. Without a prevent good travel
rate for the big jumps, the Earth colony ships would still be in
transiet. Perhaps the jumps take 30 years to nearby star systems.

Anyway to restart something in this verse would be an act of creation.
Hence the God/the writers can says what ever they want and it will
be so.

Firefly was in it way as flawed as Star Trek. As I say it, some of
the flaws were the same. Both had PSI powers in certain parties.
I suppose Whedon couldn't help himself. And what little I read of
Roddenberry beyond ST nor could he.


"It is to be a long jump into the black but it will be short hop as
our captain
refuses to take his turn in the hibernation pod so we will sleep our
whole journey while he tends the great ship on his long night watch
of centuries. For it seems he is intent on proving his his first
generation longevity
upgrade provides something close to theoretical immortality. He as
done
it before this way, indeed he has never used the pod to my knowledge."
........"Travel to The Stars Before FTL - the youth reader series






>
> --www.woutervalentijn.net
>
> www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
>
> liam=mail

In article
<56b90fd5-37f4-428b-af8f-ea24eb2932d9@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
<"trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 16, 8:03 am, "Wouter Valentijn" <l...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >
> > and of which there is no real indication.
>
>
> The time frame is the indication. The show set something
> like 500 years in the future. Without a prevent good travel
> rate for the big jumps, the Earth colony ships would still be in
> transiet. Perhaps the jumps take 30 years to nearby star systems.

I am thinking that the time passage was counted from time that they
were awake and lived through, not transit time while they were in
deep-freeze. Along with the whole time travelling slower to a person
approaching the speed of light, even 50% or less, and the time frame
tends to lose significance. I really doubt that they are still living
on Earth-That-Was time.

If the trip took 250 years, but you were only awake a few hours at the
beginning and at the end of a one way trip, to move your clocks ahead
by 250 years would not have much meaning. Other than the trite jokes;
"Hey Joe! I haven't seen you in over 250 years!" "Yeah, you ain't
lookin so bad for a 275 year old!"
>
> Anyway to restart something in this verse would be an act of creation.
> Hence the God/the writers can says what ever they want and it will
> be so.

That is true, but there are certain conventions that would make it the
"Real 'Verse' and not just some cheap semi-re-imagioning.
>
> Firefly was in it way as flawed as Star Trek. As I say it, some of
> the flaws were the same. Both had PSI powers in certain parties.
> I suppose Whedon couldn't help himself. And what little I read of
> Roddenberry beyond ST nor could he.

What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?
>
> "It is to be a long jump into the black but it will be short hop as
> our captain
> refuses to take his turn in the hibernation pod so we will sleep our
> whole journey while he tends the great ship on his long night watch
> of centuries. For it seems he is intent on proving his his first
> generation longevity
> upgrade provides something close to theoretical immortality. He as
> done
> it before this way, indeed he has never used the pod to my knowledge."
> ........"Travel to The Stars Before FTL - the youth reader series
>
With functional immortality, the need for achieving the speed of light
would no longer be an imperative. If one can live forever, one would
not have a need to be in a hurry. "I'l see you when I get back from
Barnard's Star." "Ok! Talk to you in a few centuries!"

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

"trigonometry1972@gmail.com |" wrote:
> The time frame is the indication. The show set something
> like 500 years in the future. Without a prevent good travel
> rate for the big jumps, the Earth colony ships would still be in
> transiet. Perhaps the jumps take 30 years to nearby star systems.

No FTL drive, no psychic powers (River's only very smart). The
just-accept-it magic of the Firefly universe is being able to switch
gravity on and off and determine its direction independent of
acceleration of the ship. "Grav dampers." Down is always the same
direction it would be if the ship were parked in a soundstage in Los
Angeles.
If those interstellar colony ships had really efficient Grand Unified
Theory drives (and magical shielding against cosmic rays) and
accelerated constantly, with time dilation the /subjective/ travel time
might be only a few years. The colonists would keep subjective time. If
terraforming robot ships were sent at even higher acceleration, they
might have arrived and had a thousand years to do their work before any
people showed up. And the people would still think in terms of their own
time. For them it is 2600-something AD, and they've had hundreds of
years in the new solar system. Meanwhile back on Earth-That-Was it might
be 6000 AD.

On Mar 16, 6:03 pm, "C.O. Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote:
> In article
> <56b90fd5-37f4-428b-af8f-ea24eb293...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> <"trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 16, 8:03 am, "Wouter Valentijn" <l...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
> > > and of which there is no real indication.
>
> > The time frame is the indication. The show set something
> > like 500 years in the future. Without a prevent good travel
> > rate for the big jumps, the Earth colony ships would still be in
> > transiet. Perhaps the jumps take 30 years to nearby star systems.
>
> I am thinking that the time passage was counted from time that they
> were awake and lived through, not transit time while they were in
> deep-freeze. Along with the whole time travelling slower to a person
> approaching the speed of light, even 50% or less, and the time frame
> tends to lose significance. I really doubt that they are still living
> on Earth-That-Was time.
>
> If the trip took 250 years, but you were only awake a few hours at the
> beginning and at the end of a one way trip, to move your clocks ahead
> by 250 years would not have much meaning. Other than the trite jokes;
> "Hey Joe! I haven't seen you in over 250 years!" "Yeah, you ain't
> lookin so bad for a 275 year old!"

Perhaps but that defeats the purpose of counting time.
The number crunchers could calculate the "real time and date".


>
>
>
> > Anyway to restart something in this verse would be an act of creation.
> > Hence the God/the writers can says what ever they want and it will
> > be so.
>
> That is true, but there are certain conventions that would make it the
> "Real 'Verse' and not just some cheap semi-re-imagioning.

If the Fox Nitwork has a hand in it; it will be cheap. I agree
I suppose on the conventions if one were to restart Firefly proper.
Given the lack of imagination seem with TV shows, they
could skip the connection and just imagine a fully
new "Verse". I did like the dialogue on Firefly especially
the clipped nature of it.

>
>
>
> > Firefly was in it way as flawed as Star Trek. As I say it, some of
> > the flaws were the same. Both had PSI powers in certain parties.
> > I suppose Whedon couldn't help himself. And what little I read of
> > Roddenberry beyond ST nor could he.
>
> What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?

Absolutely everything. I see it as sop for the fundies and
mystical thinkers of this world.

>
> > "It is to be a long jump into the black but it will be short hop as
> > our captain
> > refuses to take his turn in the hibernation pod so we will sleep our
> > whole journey while he tends the great ship on his long night watch
> > of centuries. For it seems he is intent on proving his his first
> > generation longevity
> > upgrade provides something close to theoretical immortality. He as
> > done
> > it before this way, indeed he has never used the pod to my knowledge."
> > ........"Travel to The Stars Before FTL - the youth reader series
>
> With functional immortality, the need for achieving the speed of light
> would no longer be an imperative. If one can live forever, one would
> not have a need to be in a hurry. "I'l see you when I get back from
> Barnard's Star." "Ok! Talk to you in a few centuries!"

Exactly my point. Episodes would tend to be standalone unless
the show arch was confined to a solar system. Granted there
are ways around that. Like honey I've long haul out to Sirius see
you in 10,000 years.

>
> --
> //////////    \\\\\\\\\\\
> The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
>             -- Harlan Ellison

Give me a good beer and a bowl of sunflower seeds.............Trig

On Mar 16, 6:05 pm, Marco McClean <m...@mcn.org> wrote:
> "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" wrote:
> > The time frame is the indication. The show set something
> > like 500 years in the future. Without a prevent good travel
> > rate for the big jumps, the Earth colony ships would still be in
> > transiet. Perhaps the jumps take 30 years to nearby star systems.
>
>         No FTL drive, no psychic powers (River's only very smart).The
> just-accept-it magic of the Firefly universe is being able to switch
> gravity on and off and determine its direction independent of
> acceleration of the ship. "Grav dampers." Down is always the same
> direction it would be if the ship were parked in a soundstage in Los
> Angeles.
>         If those interstellar colony ships had really efficient Grand Unified
> Theory drives (and magical shielding against cosmic rays) and
> accelerated constantly, with time dilation the /subjective/ travel time
> might be only a few years. The colonists would keep subjective time. If
> terraforming robot ships were sent at even higher acceleration, they
> might have arrived and had a thousand years to do their work before any
> people showed up. And the people would still think in terms of their own
> time. For them it is 2600-something AD, and they've had hundreds of
> years in the new solar system. Meanwhile back on Earth-That-Was it might
> be 6000 AD.

River reads minds. That is a PSI power as I see it.

As you say FTL is really hard, it would be easier to change the
biology
of mankind for longer lifespans.

As you say having down the same direction for down in the ship is
unlikely
in the future "real" world. Though down might be determined by
constant acceleration an deceleration for long stretches of time.

I suppose something like what you propose would work as a
technogobble explanation.

The ethanol is drifting into the brain from the beer............Trig

Now to swallow some potassium r-alpha lipoic acid with a bit
of l-carnitine and some melatonin and then to dream of Lester
Packer's lab rodents.

In article <160320081903490341%apair@solidbrass.com>,
"C.O. Jones" <apair@solidbrass.com> wrote:

> In article
> <56b90fd5-37f4-428b-af8f-ea24eb2932d9@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> <"trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 16, 8:03 am, "Wouter Valentijn" <l...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> > >
> > > and of which there is no real indication.
> >
> >
> > The time frame is the indication. The show set something
> > like 500 years in the future. Without a prevent good travel
> > rate for the big jumps, the Earth colony ships would still be in
> > transiet. Perhaps the jumps take 30 years to nearby star systems.
>
> I am thinking that the time passage was counted from time that they
> were awake and lived through, not transit time while they were in
> deep-freeze. Along with the whole time travelling slower to a person
> approaching the speed of light, even 50% or less, and the time frame
> tends to lose significance. I really doubt that they are still living
> on Earth-That-Was time.
>
> If the trip took 250 years, but you were only awake a few hours at the
> beginning and at the end of a one way trip, to move your clocks ahead
> by 250 years would not have much meaning. Other than the trite jokes;
> "Hey Joe! I haven't seen you in over 250 years!" "Yeah, you ain't
> lookin so bad for a 275 year old!"


Wasn't there a comment somewhere about an entire generation living
without setting foot on a planet, during the voyage? So they didn't
sleep through it.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

In article
<485b7864-0c91-4b8b-baaf-5b477c5f43fd@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
"trigonometry1972@gmail.com |" <trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 16, 6:05 pm, Marco McClean <m...@mcn.org> wrote:
> > "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" wrote:
> > > The time frame is the indication. The show set something
> > > like 500 years in the future. Without a prevent good travel
> > > rate for the big jumps, the Earth colony ships would still be in
> > > transiet. Perhaps the jumps take 30 years to nearby star systems.
> >
> >         No FTL drive, no psychic powers (River's only very smart). The
> > just-accept-it magic of the Firefly universe is being able to switch
> > gravity on and off and determine its direction independent of
> > acceleration of the ship. "Grav dampers." Down is always the same
> > direction it would be if the ship were parked in a soundstage in Los
> > Angeles.
> >         If those interstellar colony ships had really efficient Grand
> > Unified
> > Theory drives (and magical shielding against cosmic rays) and
> > accelerated constantly, with time dilation the /subjective/ travel time
> > might be only a few years. The colonists would keep subjective time. If
> > terraforming robot ships were sent at even higher acceleration, they
> > might have arrived and had a thousand years to do their work before any
> > people showed up.

For the robots to go fast enough for a 1000 year head start, then your
colony ships won't be going fast enough for them to experience a useful
time dilation.

(Say the trip is 4000 light years. Your robots hit 99.9999% C, and get
there in 4000 years. Your colony ships take 5000 years, at 80% C, which
means that they experienced 3000 years in transit.)

> > And the people would still think in terms of their own
> > time. For them it is 2600-something AD, and they've had hundreds of
> > years in the new solar system. Meanwhile back on Earth-That-Was it might
> > be 6000 AD.

For that to work, they also had to somehow had to detect that this
system existed that they could settle in, from 4000 light years away. I
suspect that there would have been something a little closer. Current
astronomical observations are showing that planets aren't all that rare,
and we're getting close to being able to spot Earth sized planets in the
Goldilocks zone of nearby stars.

If the star they went to was more than about 100 light years away, then
they pretty much had to make the voyage with only telescopic observation
of their destination. No way to have sent a probe to scout and report
back on the suitability of the target system, in the time available.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

<trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:afb8e331-b47b-4392-867e-557d6841abe9@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

>> What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?

>Absolutely everything. I see it as sop for the fundies and
>mystical thinkers of this world.

Exactly. Even Whedon later expressed regret for having added that aspect to
the show.

There was always the "River's mind is just a supercomputer" way out. But
the writers passed on it.

Now another show has taken the concept overboard, at least WRT Summer Glau.
--
Atlas Bugged, 5:31 am Monday, March 17, 2008
SERENITY/FIREFLY FAQ
http://snipurl.com/FF_FAQ "One page, all you need to know, referenced."
CRITICAL EVALUATION:
http://snipurl.com/RATINGS "Evaluation of all eps, the film, the books,
comics, with reasons."
TROLL/RAT/BASTARDS:
http://snipurl.com/TRB_PG "Want to know why a single notice always morphs
into a stupid thread?"
WHO IS ATLAS BUGGED?
http://snipurl.com/buged "Attorney, activist, atheist, and yes, I confess,
others that start with an 'A!'"
TIM MINEAR SAYS, AND BUGGED GETS IT:
http://snipurl.com/minerq "...I'm kind of lazy, and I'm old."

[Dexter's friend and co-worker who's been watching "Oprah"]
ANGEL:
"Don't forget, just *tell the universe what you need!*"
DEXTER:
"I need to kill someone."
-From Showtime's DEXTER, 2x01

"trigonometry1972@gmail.com |" wrote:
>
> River reads minds. That is a PSI power as I see it.
>
We all read minds by watching each other's faces and gestures, and by
smell, and by tone of voice, and by memory of who each other is and what
a person or type of crowd cares most or least about. Some pet animals do
it as well as people do. There's nothing magical about it, unless magic
means anything done startlingly and creepifyingly well enough to arouse
awe in us, and that's only a measure of our own inability. Similarly, to
anyone with very little grace or musical talent, watching a violin
virtuoso or a gymnast perform is magical; what the person's doing is
obviously impossible, a supernatural event. But just because something
is obvious doesn't make it true.
And we all predict the future. People who are both not very smart and
not very educated can't do it as reliably as people who are, except
about very simple things, such as predicting dinnertime. River is
supposed to be a very sensitive, very well educated supergenius. Of
course what she does seems like telepathy and clairvoyance.
I want to know how she got out of the handcuffs.

Don Sample wrote:
>
> If the star they went to was more than about 100 light years away, then
> they pretty much had to make the voyage with only telescopic observation
> of their destination. No way to have sent a probe to scout and report
> back on the suitability of the target system, in the time available.

How about this: they send off the terraforming robots in a likely
direction and follow at a lower acceleration. The robots go until they
see a likely system, transmit the information directly into the path of
the colony ships (drop or fire relativistic beacons if necessary), then
change course for the choice system and decelerate into it. This way
gives enough subjective time difference to let the robots produce
livable planets by the time colonists show up.
I agree with you about this not working if the result you want is just
a few years of subjective time for the colonists' trip-- but maybe the
new Firefly system was only colonized a few years before the war. Maybe
they've been traveling for nearly 500 subjective years in generation
ships. And this way the terraforming robots /are/ the many-light-year
scout probes.
Something that puzzled me every time I watched the movie: if they could
quickly terraform planets and moons seemingly not having to worry about
the quality or quanity of available resources (most of the hundreds of
planets and moons of the new system are made relatively comfy), why
couldn't they do the same for the Earth's neighbor planets and moons? Of
course they couldn't renew Earth itself; resource impacts would be
extinction-level events, and I assume there are still a lot of people
living on Earth, but why fly light-years when there are dozens of likely
rocks right here? /Unless you want to use time-dilation to not have to
wait so long./ But if that's the case, then why not set the local
terraforming projects going, fly away, accelerate to near the speed of
light, turn in a big circle and come back?
Hmm. Maybe they did that too, with another project group.

In article
<afb8e331-b47b-4392-867e-557d6841abe9@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
<"trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 16, 6:03 pm, "C.O. Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <56b90fd5-37f4-428b-af8f-ea24eb293...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > If the trip took 250 years, but you were only awake a few hours at the
> > beginning and at the end of a one way trip, to move your clocks ahead
> > by 250 years would not have much meaning. Other than the trite jokes;
> > "Hey Joe! I haven't seen you in over 250 years!" "Yeah, you ain't
> > lookin so bad for a 275 year old!"
>
> Perhaps but that defeats the purpose of counting time.

And the purpose of counting time is pretty much from a significant
date. Like "500 years since we arrived from earth."

> The number crunchers could calculate the "real time and date".

Maybe they do. But who else would be interested in an "accurate" number
from a mythic date?
>
>
> >
> >
> >
clip
> > That is true, but there are certain conventions that would make it the
> > "Real 'Verse' and not just some cheap semi-re-imagioning.
>
> If the Fox Nitwork has a hand in it; it will be cheap. I agree
> I suppose on the conventions if one were to restart Firefly proper.
> Given the lack of imagination seem with TV shows, they
> could skip the connection and just imagine a fully
> new "Verse". I did like the dialogue on Firefly especially
> the clipped nature of it.

You liked the way Joss Whedon handled it. I don't know of too many
others that could make it "Firefly," and even less that would want to
without his blessing. And even less that would still consider it "the
'Verse" without him.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > Firefly was in it way as flawed as Star Trek. As I say it, some of
> > > the flaws were the same. Both had PSI powers in certain parties.
> > > I suppose Whedon couldn't help himself. And what little I read of
> > > Roddenberry beyond ST nor could he.
> >
> > What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?
>
> Absolutely everything. I see it as sop for the fundies and
> mystical thinkers of this world.

That is not an answer, that is an unscientific opinion.
>
> >
> > > "It is to be a long jump into the black but it will be short hop as
> > > our captain
> > > refuses to take his turn in the hibernation pod so we will sleep our
> > > whole journey while he tends the great ship on his long night watch
> > > of centuries. For it seems he is intent on proving his his first
> > > generation longevity
> > > upgrade provides something close to theoretical immortality. He as
> > > done
> > > it before this way, indeed he has never used the pod to my knowledge."
> > > ........"Travel to The Stars Before FTL - the youth reader series
> >
> > With functional immortality, the need for achieving the speed of light
> > would no longer be an imperative. If one can live forever, one would
> > not have a need to be in a hurry. "I'l see you when I get back from
> > Barnard's Star." "Ok! Talk to you in a few centuries!"
>
> Exactly my point. Episodes would tend to be standalone unless
> the show arch was confined to a solar system. Granted there
> are ways around that. Like honey I've long haul out to Sirius see
> you in 10,000 years.
>
Without having lived through immortality, I doubt we could know how to
establish continuity over such long periods. The really big loss would
be the passage of time. Since passage of time would be the same to
everyone that was immortal, it would be less important on how long
things take. Sort of the opposite of "Dog Years."

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

In article <47DE7A9C.EBFF3DA3@mcn.org>, Marco McClean <memo@mcn.org>
wrote:

> Something that puzzled me every time I watched the movie: if they could
> quickly terraform planets and moons seemingly not having to worry about
> the quality or quanity of available resources (most of the hundreds of
> planets and moons of the new system are made relatively comfy), why
> couldn't they do the same for the Earth's neighbor planets and moons? Of
> course they couldn't renew Earth itself; resource impacts would be
> extinction-level events, and I assume there are still a lot of people
> living on Earth, but why fly light-years when there are dozens of likely
> rocks right here?

Maybe they did. Our story concerns the people that left and went to the
'Verse. There may still be plenty of people on Earth, Mars, Venus and
the like, And maybe other star systems. All of which are out of touch,
and thereby out of the story.

> /Unless you want to use time-dilation to not have to
> wait so long./ But if that's the case, then why not set the local
> terraforming projects going, fly away, accelerate to near the speed of
> light, turn in a big circle and come back?
> Hmm. Maybe they did that too, with another project group.

Or maybe, if they wanted something like that, they decided to save on
all that fuel, and just put the bunch of people in "deep freeze" in
orbit around Pluto for a few thousand years.

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

In article <47DE790F.4E64E671@mcn.org>, Marco McClean <memo@mcn.org>
wrote:

> "trigonometry1972@gmail.com |" wrote:
> >
> > River reads minds. That is a PSI power as I see it.
> >
> We all read minds by watching each other's faces and gestures, and by
> smell, and by tone of voice, and by memory of who each other is and what
> a person or type of crowd cares most or least about. Some pet animals do
> it as well as people do. There's nothing magical about it, unless magic
> means anything done startlingly and creepifyingly well enough to arouse
> awe in us, and that's only a measure of our own inability. Similarly, to
> anyone with very little grace or musical talent, watching a violin
> virtuoso or a gymnast perform is magical; what the person's doing is
> obviously impossible, a supernatural event. But just because something
> is obvious doesn't make it true.
> And we all predict the future. People who are both not very smart and
> not very educated can't do it as reliably as people who are, except
> about very simple things, such as predicting dinnertime. River is
> supposed to be a very sensitive, very well educated supergenius. Of
> course what she does seems like telepathy and clairvoyance.
> I want to know how she got out of the handcuffs.

She read "How To Escape Handcuffs" by Harry Houdini?

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

In article <dsample-F1EF42.04321317032008@news.giganews.com>, Don
Sample <dsample@synapse.net> wrote:

> In article <160320081903490341%apair@solidbrass.com>,
> "C.O. Jones" <apair@solidbrass.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <56b90fd5-37f4-428b-af8f-ea24eb2932d9@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > <"trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mar 16, 8:03 am, "Wouter Valentijn" <l...@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > and of which there is no real indication.
> > >
> > >
> > > The time frame is the indication. The show set something
> > > like 500 years in the future. Without a prevent good travel
> > > rate for the big jumps, the Earth colony ships would still be in
> > > transiet. Perhaps the jumps take 30 years to nearby star systems.
> >
> > I am thinking that the time passage was counted from time that they
> > were awake and lived through, not transit time while they were in
> > deep-freeze. Along with the whole time travelling slower to a person
> > approaching the speed of light, even 50% or less, and the time frame
> > tends to lose significance. I really doubt that they are still living
> > on Earth-That-Was time.
> >
> > If the trip took 250 years, but you were only awake a few hours at the
> > beginning and at the end of a one way trip, to move your clocks ahead
> > by 250 years would not have much meaning. Other than the trite jokes;
> > "Hey Joe! I haven't seen you in over 250 years!" "Yeah, you ain't
> > lookin so bad for a 275 year old!"
>
>
> Wasn't there a comment somewhere about an entire generation living
> without setting foot on a planet, during the voyage? So they didn't
> sleep through it.

I don't recall that. Besides which, that could have just as easily been
the first generation, and did not yet have a suitable planet to set
foot on. Just speculation.

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

C.O. Jones wrote:
> In article
> <afb8e331-b47b-4392-867e-557d6841abe9@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Firefly was in it way as flawed as Star Trek. As I say it, some of
>>>> the flaws were the same. Both had PSI powers in certain parties.
>>>> I suppose Whedon couldn't help himself. And what little I read of
>>>> Roddenberry beyond ST nor could he.
>>>
>>> What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?
>>
>> Absolutely everything. I see it as sop for the fundies and
>> mystical thinkers of this world.
>
> That is not an answer, that is an unscientific opinion.

There is zero scientific proof of psi.


--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

In article <47deb8e4$0$14360$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter Valentijn
<liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> C.O. Jones wrote:
> > In article
> > <afb8e331-b47b-4392-867e-557d6841abe9@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> >>>> Firefly was in it way as flawed as Star Trek. As I say it, some of
> >>>> the flaws were the same. Both had PSI powers in certain parties.
> >>>> I suppose Whedon couldn't help himself. And what little I read of
> >>>> Roddenberry beyond ST nor could he.
> >>>
> >>> What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?
> >>
> >> Absolutely everything. I see it as sop for the fundies and
> >> mystical thinkers of this world.
> >
> > That is not an answer, that is an unscientific opinion.
>
> There is zero scientific proof of psi.

Is not, never will be? Many people have/are running scientific studies
on this. Do they believe they are wasting their time and funding money?
How about controlling machinery by thought power? Like in numerous
ongoing studies. Or like in state-of-the-art military aircraft? Doesn't
sound like zero to me. But then again, I probably have more of an
imaginative mind when it comes to defining "powers of the mins."

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

In article <170320080815238905%apair@solidbrass.com>,
"C.O. Jones" <apair@solidbrass.com> wrote:

> In article
> <afb8e331-b47b-4392-867e-557d6841abe9@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> <"trigonometry1972@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 16, 6:03 pm, "C.O. Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <56b90fd5-37f4-428b-af8f-ea24eb293...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > > If the trip took 250 years, but you were only awake a few hours at the
> > > beginning and at the end of a one way trip, to move your clocks ahead
> > > by 250 years would not have much meaning. Other than the trite jokes;
> > > "Hey Joe! I haven't seen you in over 250 years!" "Yeah, you ain't
> > > lookin so bad for a 275 year old!"
> >
> > Perhaps but that defeats the purpose of counting time.
>
> And the purpose of counting time is pretty much from a significant
> date. Like "500 years since we arrived from earth."

But we aren't told "500 years since we arrived from earth." We are told
"2517."

>
> > The number crunchers could calculate the "real time and date".
>
> Maybe they do. But who else would be interested in an "accurate" number
> from a mythic date?

There are still a lot of Christians running around in the 'verse. Think
they'd be happy just ignoring a few centuries? A big impetus for the
development of the calendar was so that they could celebrate all those
important religious events on the right days.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

In article <47DE7A9C.EBFF3DA3@mcn.org>, Marco McClean <memo@mcn.org>
wrote:

> Don Sample wrote:
> >
> > If the star they went to was more than about 100 light years away, then
> > they pretty much had to make the voyage with only telescopic observation
> > of their destination. No way to have sent a probe to scout and report
> > back on the suitability of the target system, in the time available.
>
> How about this: they send off the terraforming robots in a likely
> direction and follow at a lower acceleration. The robots go until they
> see a likely system, transmit the information directly into the path of
> the colony ships (drop or fire relativistic beacons if necessary), then
> change course for the choice system and decelerate into it. This way
> gives enough subjective time difference to let the robots produce
> livable planets by the time colonists show up.
> I agree with you about this not working if the result you want is just
> a few years of subjective time for the colonists' trip-- but maybe the
> new Firefly system was only colonized a few years before the war. Maybe
> they've been traveling for nearly 500 subjective years in generation
> ships. And this way the terraforming robots /are/ the many-light-year
> scout probes.

But they weren't colonized just a few years before the war. Mal, and
all the others were born in the new system, and the society that is
depicted has developed for several generations there.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

Don Sample wrote:
>
> But they weren't colonized just a few years before the war. Mal, and
> all the others were born in the new system, and the society that is
> depicted has developed for several generations there.

Several generations is just a few years. We've had generations X, Y and
Whuh since the 1960s. That still leaves more that 400 years available
for the slowboat trip and for societies on all those separate ships to
mutate significantly during the trip. It's almost the amount of time
between Columbus and the 1960s. Freezing works better, though; the
technology isn't any 400 years advanced-- IBM keyboards,
easily-pressure-damaged 2002-era liquid crystal flatscreens, etc.
But that reminds me of another thing: Mal and Zooey and even Inara have
always seemed too young to me to be who they are. And River seems too
grown up. I mean, if I had cast the show, I'd be wondering now if it
wouldn't have been better to cast an older Mal and Zooey and Inara
--certainly an older Mister Universe-- and a younger River. Mal should
be able to say, "I'm a mean old man," as though he is, in his eyes,
anyway, and have it seem believable. And maybe a slighter, smaller
actress wouldn't have been able to do the stunts Summer Glau did as
River, but if she could, imagine the impact on the carnage scenes. But
maybe a truly little girl River would just seem demonic. I dunno.

In article <47DF1BB9.9AA2AD6C@mcn.org>, Marco McClean <memo@mcn.org>
wrote:

> Don Sample wrote:
> >
> > But they weren't colonized just a few years before the war. Mal, and
> > all the others were born in the new system, and the society that is
> > depicted has developed for several generations there.
>
> Several generations is just a few years. We've had generations X, Y and
> Whuh since the 1960s. That still leaves more that 400 years available
> for the slowboat trip and for societies on all those separate ships to
> mutate significantly during the trip. It's almost the amount of time
> between Columbus and the 1960s. Freezing works better, though; the
> technology isn't any 400 years advanced-- IBM keyboards,
> easily-pressure-damaged 2002-era liquid crystal flatscreens, etc.


The society we see is equivalent to America in the late 19th century,
with the established core worlds being like east coast cities such as
Boston and New York, worlds like Persephone being like Saint Louis, and
the outer worlds being like Dodge City, and Tombstone.

It took hundreds of years from the establishment of the first colonies
in America to develop that society.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:29:29 -0700, "C.O. Jones"
<apair@solidbrass.com> wrote:
>>
>> Wasn't there a comment somewhere about an entire generation living
>> without setting foot on a planet, during the voyage? So they didn't
>> sleep through it.
>
>I don't recall that. Besides which, that could have just as easily been
>the first generation, and did not yet have a suitable planet to set
>foot on. Just speculation.

The comment was part of an essay that Joss wrote for the Serenity:
Official Visual Companion outlining his vision of the Fireflyverse.
His specific words are: "Every person willing and able to leave the
Earth migrated to the new system. An entire generation never even saw
the outside of a spaceship, the journey took so long." The essay also
goes on to say that the terraforming process on several of the planets
in the new system by the time the colony ships arrived. While it's not
technically canon, Joss is pretty slavish about following his own
continuity, so unless it gets contradicted in a future show or movie,
I'm pretty confident in assuming that the journey took decades --
perhaps even the better part of a century.

Of course you might argue that Joss is contradicting his "Earth got
used up" line with this one since here he implies that some people
remained behind on Earth. But then again, he has always implies that
Earth was on its last legs, its resources depleted and overwhelmed by
its human population -- that's close enough to "used up" for me.
--
"Yes, yes, this is a fertile land and we shall thrive. We will rule
over all this land and we will call it,...'This Land.'
I think we should call it your grave!
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
Hah, hah, hah. Mine is an evil laugh."
-- Wash

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:14:22 -0700, "C.O. Jones"
<apair@solidbrass.com> wrote:

>> >>> What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?
>> >>
>> >> Absolutely everything. I see it as sop for the fundies and
>> >> mystical thinkers of this world.
>> >
>> > That is not an answer, that is an unscientific opinion.
>>
>> There is zero scientific proof of psi.
>
>Is not, never will be? Many people have/are running scientific studies
>on this. Do they believe they are wasting their time and funding money?
>How about controlling machinery by thought power? Like in numerous
>ongoing studies. Or like in state-of-the-art military aircraft? Doesn't
>sound like zero to me. But then again, I probably have more of an
>imaginative mind when it comes to defining "powers of the mins."

It has always seemed to me that River's psi powers were the result of
Alliance conditioning rather than inherent abilities. So it doesn't
bother me at all -- it's no different than FTL in other scifi.
--
"Yes, yes, this is a fertile land and we shall thrive. We will rule
over all this land and we will call it,...'This Land.'
I think we should call it your grave!
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
Hah, hah, hah. Mine is an evil laugh."
-- Wash

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:11:37 -0400, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>
wrote:

>In article <47DE7A9C.EBFF3DA3@mcn.org>, Marco McClean <memo@mcn.org>
>wrote:
>
>> Don Sample wrote:
>> >
>> > If the star they went to was more than about 100 light years away, then
>> > they pretty much had to make the voyage with only telescopic observation
>> > of their destination. No way to have sent a probe to scout and report
>> > back on the suitability of the target system, in the time available.
>>
>> How about this: they send off the terraforming robots in a likely
>> direction and follow at a lower acceleration. The robots go until they
>> see a likely system, transmit the information directly into the path of
>> the colony ships (drop or fire relativistic beacons if necessary), then
>> change course for the choice system and decelerate into it. This way
>> gives enough subjective time difference to let the robots produce
>> livable planets by the time colonists show up.
>> I agree with you about this not working if the result you want is just
>> a few years of subjective time for the colonists' trip-- but maybe the
>> new Firefly system was only colonized a few years before the war. Maybe
>> they've been traveling for nearly 500 subjective years in generation
>> ships. And this way the terraforming robots /are/ the many-light-year
>> scout probes.
>
>But they weren't colonized just a few years before the war. Mal, and
>all the others were born in the new system, and the society that is
>depicted has developed for several generations there.

I guess it all depends on how far the Firefly system is and how fast
ETW ships are given their size and complexity. Suppose it's 2038 and
the population has reached 10 billion people. Now that the ice caps
are gone, outgoing president Jenna Bush acknowledges that global
warming might become a serious problem in the future. Incoming
president Chelsea Clinton announces an ambitious plan in cooperation
with China to explore and colonize new worlds. After thirty years of
exploring our own solar system with automated probes, scientists have
already ruled out terraforming Mars and Venus quickly enough to
relieve the population crisis any time soon. But the two planets do
serve as test beds for terraforming technology.

Deep space observation satellites have already detected numerous solar
systems with potentially habitable or terraformable planets.
Breakthroughs in propulsion allow for the building of small
interstellar probes which can accelerate to speeds upwards of 99% the
speed of light. The first of these probes launch in 2040. While these
probes are too small to carry more than a few high definition
telescopes and a small planetary survey suite, they enable Earth
scientists to locate more than one hundred planetary systems with
terraformable planets within 50 light years of Earth by 2140.

Several systems seem promising enough to justify sending the new Cylon
Technologies terraforming factory ships (TerFS). Fully automated with
advanced AIs, these ships are able to process a planet's atmosphere,
seeding it with algae and bacteria while laying down a grid of
radioisotope thermoelectric generator (RTG) powered artificial gravity
generators to raise or lower a planet's gravity to match that of
Earth. Traveling at half the speed of light, these ships are sent to
several nearby systems with the first expected to reach their
candidate systems before 2200. By 2300, several TerFS have reported
back with promising results.

Two systems are identified many successfully terraformed planets and
moons. The more promising system (with over thirty terraformed worlds)
is nearer to Earth and is chosen as the new home of humanity. A
massive fleet of ships -- the largest ever built by the human race --
is built by the newly formed US-Chinese Blue Sun conglomerate and head
out for the new system. A smaller fleet of ships commanded by Admiral
Lord Demetrius Kobol is sent to another system with a small planet
which was originally rejected as too small with plans to use this
planet as a staging area for terraforming and colonizing a more
distant system with a dozen candidate worlds.

While no further information is known of the fate of the Kobol
expedition, the Blue Sun fleet arrived at and began the settlement of
two planets which were named Londinium and Sihnon respectively in
approximately 2400 (due to uncertainties introduced by time dilation,
the exact date is uncertain). These two planets, along with their
nearest habitable neighbor planets and moons would form the core of
the Alliance and would colonize the rest of the new system.

A scenario like this gives us around a hundred years for the actual
move from Earth to take place and another one hundred for the humanity
to settle in the new system and have their civil war.
--
"Yes, yes, this is a fertile land and we shall thrive. We will rule
over all this land and we will call it,...'This Land.'
I think we should call it your grave!
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
Hah, hah, hah. Mine is an evil laugh."
-- Wash

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/

In article <pgfut3pqoiur6mkbbb208f318b9dtb8ons@4ax.com>, Zombie Elvis
<DELETEMETOREPLYrobertocastillo@ameritech.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:11:37 -0400, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <47DE7A9C.EBFF3DA3@mcn.org>, Marco McClean <memo@mcn.org>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Don Sample wrote:
> >> >
> >> > If the star they went to was more than about 100 light years away, then
> >> > they pretty much had to make the voyage with only telescopic observation
> >> > of their destination. No way to have sent a probe to scout and report
> >> > back on the suitability of the target system, in the time available.
> >>
> >> How about this: they send off the terraforming robots in a likely
> >> direction and follow at a lower acceleration. The robots go until they
> >> see a likely system, transmit the information directly into the path of
> >> the colony ships (drop or fire relativistic beacons if necessary), then
> >> change course for the choice system and decelerate into it. This way
> >> gives enough subjective time difference to let the robots produce
> >> livable planets by the time colonists show up.
> >> I agree with you about this not working if the result you want is just
> >> a few years of subjective time for the colonists' trip-- but maybe the
> >> new Firefly system was only colonized a few years before the war. Maybe
> >> they've been traveling for nearly 500 subjective years in generation
> >> ships. And this way the terraforming robots /are/ the many-light-year
> >> scout probes.
> >
> >But they weren't colonized just a few years before the war. Mal, and
> >all the others were born in the new system, and the society that is
> >depicted has developed for several generations there.
>
> I guess it all depends on how far the Firefly system is and how fast
> ETW ships are given their size and complexity. Suppose it's 2038 and
> the population has reached 10 billion people. Now that the ice caps
> are gone, outgoing president Jenna Bush acknowledges that global
> warming might become a serious problem in the future. Incoming
> president Chelsea Clinton announces an ambitious plan in cooperation
> with China to explore and colonize new worlds. After thirty years of
> exploring our own solar system with automated probes, scientists have
> already ruled out terraforming Mars and Venus quickly enough to
> relieve the population crisis any time soon. But the two planets do
> serve as test beds for terraforming technology.
>
> Deep space observation satellites have already detected numerous solar
> systems with potentially habitable or terraformable planets.
> Breakthroughs in propulsion allow for the building of small
> interstellar probes which can accelerate to speeds upwards of 99% the
> speed of light. The first of these probes launch in 2040. While these
> probes are too small to carry more than a few high definition
> telescopes and a small planetary survey suite, they enable Earth
> scientists to locate more than one hundred planetary systems with
> terraformable planets within 50 light years of Earth by 2140.
>
> Several systems seem promising enough to justify sending the new Cylon
> Technologies terraforming factory ships (TerFS). Fully automated with
> advanced AIs, these ships are able to process a planet's atmosphere,
> seeding it with algae and bacteria while laying down a grid of
> radioisotope thermoelectric generator (RTG) powered artificial gravity
> generators to raise or lower a planet's gravity to match that of
> Earth. Traveling at half the speed of light, these ships are sent to
> several nearby systems with the first expected to reach their
> candidate systems before 2200. By 2300, several TerFS have reported
> back with promising results.
>
> Two systems are identified many successfully terraformed planets and
> moons. The more promising system (with over thirty terraformed worlds)
> is nearer to Earth and is chosen as the new home of humanity. A
> massive fleet of ships -- the largest ever built by the human race --
> is built by the newly formed US-Chinese Blue Sun conglomerate and head
> out for the new system. A smaller fleet of ships commanded by Admiral
> Lord Demetrius Kobol is sent to another system with a small planet
> which was originally rejected as too small with plans to use this
> planet as a staging area for terraforming and colonizing a more
> distant system with a dozen candidate worlds.
>
> While no further information is known of the fate of the Kobol
> expedition, the Blue Sun fleet arrived at and began the settlement of
> two planets which were named Londinium and Sihnon respectively in
> approximately 2400 (due to uncertainties introduced by time dilation,
> the exact date is uncertain). These two planets, along with their
> nearest habitable neighbor planets and moons would form the core of
> the Alliance and would colonize the rest of the new system.
>
> A scenario like this gives us around a hundred years for the actual
> move from Earth to take place and another one hundred for the humanity
> to settle in the new system and have their civil war.

Sounds good to me!

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

C.O. Jones wrote:
> In article <47deb8e4$0$14360$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter
> Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
>> C.O. Jones wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <afb8e331-b47b-4392-867e-557d6841abe9@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> Firefly was in it way as flawed as Star Trek. As I say it, some
>>>>>> of the flaws were the same. Both had PSI powers in certain
>>>>>> parties. I suppose Whedon couldn't help himself. And what little
>>>>>> I read of Roddenberry beyond ST nor could he.
>>>>>
>>>>> What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely everything. I see it as sop for the fundies and
>>>> mystical thinkers of this world.
>>>
>>> That is not an answer, that is an unscientific opinion.
>>
>> There is zero scientific proof of psi.
>
> Is not, never will be? Many people have/are running scientific studies
> on this. Do they believe they are wasting their time and funding
> money? How about controlling machinery by thought power? Like in
> numerous ongoing studies. Or like in state-of-the-art military
> aircraft? Doesn't sound like zero to me. But then again, I probably
> have more of an imaginative mind when it comes to defining "powers of
> the mins."

Controlling machinery by thought power?
You mean wiring a brain to some device like they do with an EEG? The machine
reads brain impulses and translates those to commands. The actual power to
/move/ things significantly comes from the machines themselves.
That's not psi.

--
www.woutervalentijn.net

www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html

liam=mail

In article <47e00457$0$14360$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter Valentijn
<liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> C.O. Jones wrote:
> > In article <47deb8e4$0$14360$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Wouter
> > Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
> >
> >> C.O. Jones wrote:
> >>> In article
> >>> <afb8e331-b47b-4392-867e-557d6841abe9@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> >>>>>> Firefly was in it way as flawed as Star Trek. As I say it, some
> >>>>>> of the flaws were the same. Both had PSI powers in certain
> >>>>>> parties. I suppose Whedon couldn't help himself. And what little
> >>>>>> I read of Roddenberry beyond ST nor could he.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What exactly is flawed about the idea of psionics?
> >>>>
> >>>> Absolutely everything. I see it as sop for the fundies and
> >>>> mystical thinkers of this world.
> >>>
> >>> That is not an answer, that is an unscientific opinion.
> >>
> >> There is zero scientific proof of psi.
> >
> > Is not, never will be? Many people have/are running scientific studies
> > on this. Do they believe they are wasting their time and funding
> > money? How about controlling machinery by thought power? Like in
> > numerous ongoing studies. Or like in state-of-the-art military
> > aircraft? Doesn't sound like zero to me. But then again, I probably
> > have more of an imaginative mind when it comes to defining "powers of
> > the mins."
>
> Controlling machinery by thought power?
> You mean wiring a brain to some device like they do with an EEG? The machine
> reads brain impulses and translates those to commands. The actual power to
> /move/ things significantly comes from the machines themselves.

The actual PUSH command comes from brain waves. It's like saying that
the guy decides to pick up a glass of water, that the mind only
DIRECTED him to do it, the ARM did all the work.

> That's not psi.

It is mind affecting matter. The importat thing here is "THE MIND." It
is able to affect actual real things, wether it is a machine that is
picking up it's signals, or a dagger on the table. It sounds like your
definition of what EXACTLY is PSI is way to restrictive.

It is like saying that man can't fly because the airplane does all the
work. In a narrow sense, that is true, but in a wider sense, people fly
every minute of every day.

--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison

Don Sample wrote:
>
> The society we see is equivalent to America in the late 19th century,
> with the established core worlds being like east coast cities such as
> Boston and New York, worlds like Persephone being like Saint Louis, and
> the outer worlds being like Dodge City, and Tombstone.
>
> It took hundreds of years from the establishment of the first colonies
> in America to develop that society.

But would it have taken that long if the colonists had landed in
America with no natives to shove aside, a 2040-AD-plus technical and
biological knowledge base, fusion power generation, and gravity-control
flooring that continues working without a hiccup even when a ship's
engine is dead?
Also, the society we see in Firefly, where it isn't very similar to our
own incompetent tech-heavy police state or, say, a relatively peaceful
third-world tribal system, has reverted to Lord-of-the-Flies
political/religious savagery, which we've seen over and over in the real
world can happen in minutes.

In article <47E062D9.BF111E77@mcn.org>, Marco McClean <memo@mcn.org>
wrote:

> Don Sample wrote:
> >
> > The society we see is equivalent to America in the late 19th century,
> > with the established core worlds being like east coast cities such as
> > Boston and New York, worlds like Persephone being like Saint Louis, and
> > the outer worlds being like Dodge City, and Tombstone.
> >
> > It took hundreds of years from the establishment of the first colonies
> > in America to develop that society.
>
> But would it have taken that long if the colonists had landed in
> America with no natives to shove aside, a 2040-AD-plus technical and
> biological knowledge base, fusion power generation, and gravity-control
> flooring that continues working without a hiccup even when a ship's
> engine is dead?
>

How many people came in those first ships from Earth That Was? They
originally settled on two worlds, but by the time of Firefly, there are
several well established core worlds, several other well settled
planets, and scores of outer worlds undergoing colonization.

Even if they've been breeding like rabbits, it would take a couple of
hundred years to grow their population that much.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:11:37 -0400, Don Sample <dsample@synapse.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <47DE7A9C.EBFF3DA3@mcn.org>, Marco McClean <memo@mcn.org>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Don Sample wrote:
> >> >
> >> > If the star they went to was more than about 100 light years away, then
> >> > they pretty much had to make the voyage with only telescopic observation
> >> > of their destination. No way to have sent a probe to scout and report
> >> > back on the suitability of the target system, in the time available.
> >>
> >> How about this: they send off the terraforming robots in a likely
> >> direction and follow at a lower acceleration. The robots go until they
> >> see a likely system, transmit the information directly into the path of
> >> the colony ships (drop or fire relativistic beacons if necessary), then
> >> change course for the choice system and decelerate into it. This way
> >> gives enough subjective time difference to let the robots produce
> >> livable planets by the time colonists show up.
> >> I agree with you about this not working if the result you want is just
> >> a few years of subjective time for the colonists' trip-- but maybe the
> >> new Firefly system was only colonized a few years before the war. Maybe
> >> they've been traveling for nearly 500 subjective years in generation
> >> ships. And this way the terraforming robots /are/ the many-light-year
> >> scout probes.
> >
> >But they weren't colonized just a few years before the war. Mal, and
> >all the others were born in the new system, and the society that is
> >depicted has developed for several generations there.
>
> I guess it all depends on how far the Firefly system is and how fast
> ETW ships are given their size and complexity. Suppose it's 2038 and
> the population has reached 10 billion people. Now that the ice caps
> are gone, outgoing president Jenna Bush acknowledges that global
> warming might become a serious problem in the future. Incoming
> president Chelsea Clinton announces an ambitious plan in cooperation
> with China to expl