A reminder: I know these threads are still unconscious during this
part of the story, but can you believe these mooks?


ANGEL
Season Four, Episode 5: "Supersymmetry"
Writers: Elizabeth Craft and Sarah Fain
Director: Bill L. Norton

_Angel_ does confluences well. I'm a fan of the attack on Fred
happening in a room full of suspects, while Wesley was looking on from
the shadows and Lilah was watching him, and a bigger fan of Angel
trying to reconstruct the web later (hey, isn't this the kind of thing
the group ought to do from time to time, what with being detectives
and all)? It's not on a "Benediction" level of coolness, but those
are tough standards to match. Meanwhile, Acker gets a good chance to
show off her versatility - and Fred's - as she gets a chance to pay
back the bastard who ruined her life. Wesley comes off very well as
Fred's matter-of-fact enabler, aware of the consequences but leaving
her to make the decisions. That's in contrast to the way Fred
interacts with Gunn, as the episode posits that each has a badly
sanitized view of the other. They have no one to blame but themselves
for it, because those watching the series without blinders on can
attest to what they're both capable of. I think breaking the guy's
neck is probably the worst choice Gunn could have made, but I've heard
people say they sympathized with his no-win situation. This concept
is the kind of thing that works very well for any writers seeking a
good trigger to break up a long-ish running couple, or for those just
trying to write an interesting episode with some weight. Best show
of the early season pre-intensive-serial period.
Rating: Good


Season Four, Episode 6: "Spin The Bottle"
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon

I said last time that I didn't really "get" STB. No, it's not
considered cool to admit something like that when writing about pop-
art, but I had to express the frustration I was feeling, since Joss's
episodes generally have a lot beneath the surface, so I knew to look
for depth, but I wasn't finding it in STB (or WITW). Especially given
Lorne's portentious segments (which actually made me enjoy him for
once) suggesting it'll be a big episode, or at least one whose
foreshadowing is specific rather than vague. Revisiting the series
and listening to the commentary only makes me less convinced that
there's anything there to get. The point very much seems to be "let's
have Cordelia and Wesley revert to the annoying versions of their
characters, cuz that'd be fun! Wouldn't it be funny to see Wes fall
down a lot?" We learn a little about how Fred used to tick, and
precious little about anyone else. It's indulgence without much
content to justify it. But, one might ask, is it fair to demand that
every episode to have something wonderfully meaningful to say rather
than just being an hour of (sorta) character-driven comedy? Can't we
just have a moment of levity before the coming storm? Maybe, but I
don't think it's unfair to ask it to be something more than a
collection of gags that never really gels into either a story or a
"Pangs"-style riot. rI still think that STB isn't nearly as clever or
entertaining as it imagines it must be. I'm not saying it's devoid of
value, or that it doesn't have a fair amount of amusing moments,
because it does. So do lots of other TV shows.
Rating: Decent


Season Four, Episode 7: "Apocalypse, Nowish"
Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
Director: Vern Gillum

I didn't enjoy this show as much last time, or just wasn't as
impressed with its build-up, or something. Maybe it does come a bit
too quickly as the winter hiatus approaches too quickly. Nonetheless,
it is a buildup, and it does almost as well as it can given the time
frame. We start with juggling our personal problems, and steadily
progress to some great visuals involving rains of birds and mystical
symbols on maps. Onward to the Beast, whom I've never much liked,
even as a proximate villain. It's a monster like every other, so the
fact that Team Angel (and later W&H) are so ineffectual feels like the
hand of the script, not the badassery of the Beast. Here, though, re-
watching the rooftop fight and watching the DVD featurettes have
increased my appreciation for how meticulously the fourth act is put
together. It's one of the big fight scenes of the series, and a lot
of work went into making it that way. The Beast isn't big enough a
disaster, though, so we end with *fire raining from the sky*. Whether
or not one feels it's been "earned" by the previous forty minutes (I
was doubtful originally, now less so), that's quite a montage. And
mixing the massive with the personal, that's in part just a backdrop
for the bigger (to Angel, and to some fans) calamity of Cordelia and
Connor having sex. I was never able to figure out what exactly is
being done, filming- and acting-wise, to make literally every
interaction between them scream "WRONG!" so universally to all viewers
(whatever it is, the show wasn't doing it nearly as much in
"Slouching" and "Supersymmetry"). It has the desired impact.
Rating: Good (up from Decent)


Season Four, Episode 8: "Habeas Corpses"
Writer: Jeffrey Bell
Director: Skip Schoolnik

I've been staring at my screen for a few minutes, and I can't think of
anything to say about this episode. It's a good but not stellar bit
of destruction that I quite enjoy watching, entertaining enough to
earn an easy Good in my ratings. Even if my attention wanders a
little during the darkened-corridor sequences. Um... I adore the first
Wesley/Lilah scene, a lot. "Funny thing about black and white: you
mix it together and you get gray. And it doesn't matter how much
white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but
gray. And I don't see your Texas gal pal wearing that color. Come to
think of it, she prefers black." Gavin Park gets one of the less
dignified death scenes of recurring characters.

Okay, this bit was going to go into the general thoughts at the end,
but that's too long and the entry for HC was too short, so... The
seemingly unwieldy story of Pod!Cordy's motivations mostly holds
together for me, but there are two things she does that don't make
total sense to me, a major one and a minor one. The major one is
cited by many people as a big honking source of confusion, and I'll
talk about it in the next thread. The minor one comes in this
episode. Most of the way she manipulates Connor is pretty clear,
albeit really really slow, but I've never understood why she "tries"
to leave him this episode. What does she stand to gain by doing
this? She figures he wouldn't buy it if she fell into his bed too
readily? A fiendish plan to make him want her more? She thinks she's
done with him once she's harvested his gametes, and is only driven to
really recruit him after Angel doesn't fall in line? Or, uh,
something? Like I said, I don't get it.
Rating: Good


Additional comments on S4D2: Just as a heads-up, probably no need to
check the ratings for awhile, because every ATS episode for the next
disc or two is likely to get a Good rating. In many cases it's a
fairly low Good, representing enjoyment but not complete
satisfaction. From this, one might conclude that I like this phase of
Season Four overall and am consistently engaged watching it unfold,
but am rarely awed to the point of being unconcerned by its flaws.
And that wouldn't be the least accurate of conclusions. It's good but
not great TV, sustained over an impressively long period of time.

Re-reading the old reviews, I was feeling proud of my alternate
episode titles (that I used to post under the heading as an attempt to
be funny or clever in my humorless way). "Wow," I thought, "at the
beginning of BTVS S7 and then to a lesser extent for ATS S4, I was on
my game. I rock, don't I?" Then I saw that I'd made two consecutive
obscure references to the video game _Final Fantasy IV_, and I don't
believe it was intentionally. Methinks a certain arbiter needs to get
out more.

Getting back to the show itself, let's talk a little bit more about
Jasmine and Cordelia. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when our Power
That Was first infiltrates and to what extent the control becomes
complete. Some people have gone as far back as "Birthday." I prefer
to keep Cordelia as herself for as long as possible, because
otherwise, what's the point of all the time the show spends on her?
Her behavior in S3 rings perfectly true to me (with regard to the
demon powers, anyway. Not barbarian warriors), so I'm fine to take
the show at its implication that the evil entered her on the higher
plane. The spell in "Spin The Bottle" is said to be what awakened
Jasmine, so I'm fine with that as a cutoff - before then it's Cordy,
after that it's not. Some people point to bits of Cordelia-esque or
Jasmine-esque behavior at other times to suggest some kind of shared
influence, but I don't see what that would add to the story.

This leads to a few questions, though. For instance, "Apocalypse,
Nowish" opens with Cordelia having a nightmare in which she discusses
being unable to articulate what she's feeling before being attacked.
Why would the series be showing us this if she's already fully under a
demon's control? One possible answer is that this represents the real
Cordy, as an independently conscious being, watching everything that
goes on for the rest of the year while kicking and screaming. That
interpretation is sorta supported by a line in "You're Welcome." And
it also feels more twisted and ****ed up the more I think about it, so
it'll be my preferred explanation.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:69b6d98c-af74-433b-a09c-787cbb3e94ea@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> ANGEL
> Season Four, Episode 5: "Supersymmetry"

> _Angel_ does confluences well. I'm a fan of the attack on Fred
> happening in a room full of suspects, while Wesley was looking on from
> the shadows and Lilah was watching him, and a bigger fan of Angel
> trying to reconstruct the web later (hey, isn't this the kind of thing
> the group ought to do from time to time, what with being detectives
> and all)? It's not on a "Benediction" level of coolness, but those
> are tough standards to match.

I like this stuff too, though comparison to Benediction would be incidental.
It's not that kind of confluence. In one sense it's kind of accidental. In
another it's a revelation that the world revolves around Fred. Well, maybe
it's a little premature (by a season and a half) for that, but it does show
her to be more of a pivot point than perhaps we had realized. And, for this
episode, I rather like thinking of it that way because Fred is very self
focused.

Meanwhile, the business of Angel with the chairs is just plain fun. It's
good when they logically figure stuff out. Of course Fred goes and figures
it out on her own anyway - so maybe it didn't turn out to be all that
useful. AtS isn't shy about showing futility. And I suppose the underlying
point was to demonstrate Angel's photographic memory again. When exactly
did we first see that?


> Meanwhile, Acker gets a good chance to
> show off her versatility - and Fred's - as she gets a chance to pay
> back the bastard who ruined her life. Wesley comes off very well as
> Fred's matter-of-fact enabler, aware of the consequences but leaving
> her to make the decisions.

He comes off well? Hmmm. I'd say that he certainly played to Fred's mood
and desires. To the extent that's respectful of her free will is to the
same extent that he's enabling her poor decisions. Wesley is walking some
tricky moral and ethical ground here. That matter of fact balancing of
consequences (which comes off more as token acknowledgment so that it can be
dismissed) looks an awful lot like helping to bring Fred down to his level
of making dubious (and brutal) hard decisions. Meanwhile, it sure is
convenient for him that it's the way back into Fred's good graces. (At
least seemingly.) Aside from still having a thing for, she had shut the
door on him at least as hard as had Angel. And, well, he's performed his
penance to Angel. Fred's the obstacle.


> That's in contrast to the way Fred
> interacts with Gunn, as the episode posits that each has a badly
> sanitized view of the other. They have no one to blame but themselves
> for it, because those watching the series without blinders on can
> attest to what they're both capable of. I think breaking the guy's
> neck is probably the worst choice Gunn could have made, but I've heard
> people say they sympathized with his no-win situation.

I sympathize. But it's still a terrible choice.


> This concept
> is the kind of thing that works very well for any writers seeking a
> good trigger to break up a long-ish running couple, or for those just
> trying to write an interesting episode with some weight. Best show
> of the early season pre-intensive-serial period.
> Rating: Good

There's a lot that's very good about this episode - I largely agree with
your evaluation. There are a couple things about the episode that I'm not
fond of - though I'm not sure how much, if at all, to fault the episode in
itself.

First is Cordy/Connor. While this isn't the first suggestion of a potential
affair between them, nor a particularly unsettling version of it, it is
pretty boldly suggesting that it'll come. Worse, it's in a context
suggesting that it could come naturally to real Cordelia, not just Jasmine
possession. So this episode carries an anticipatory stink of what's to
come - one of the reasons that the season works less well for me on
re-watch.

It's a little early to really get into the Cordy/Connor thing, but I might
as well get it out of the way now. I've been torn sometimes about how
creepy it really is. Charisma Carpenter and Vincent Kartheiser together is
always unsettling. But in-story, the age difference isn't really that
large. A 22 year old CC would probably play very differently. But the
thing is, the show consciously plays it as creepy. It's supposed to be
unsettling. Indeed, in this episode, Cordelia speaks of knowing Connor as a
baby. (Even if she can't remember it.) I think I'll go with series' intent
that this be seen as a twisted relationship.

The series also uses this relationship to really bring down Connor from the
confused teenager acting out that we've seen to date, to something on a
whole other level of sickness. There certainly is a kind of drama to the
destruction of Connor, but it's the kind I find very disagreeable to watch.
I'm not sure I can explain exactly why Faith's story, which may have been
every bit as personally destructive, thrills me, while Connor's story makes
me squirm. But it does. And it's the story that's going to be the
underlying center for the whole season. So that's the first obvious reason
why S4 doesn't really work for me, even with all its flash/bang adventure.

Second is the ending of Gunn/Fred. (Not official yet, but pretty much a
done deal.) Now this isn't so bad. Indeed, the emotional drama of it works
very well, and will continue to be well used furthering multiple characters
and situations. It's just a shame that this little corner of happiness had
to be ripped from the series. Not just for itself - though breakfast with
Fred and Gunn sure was nice, whether at the diner or pancake kiss in bed -
but because it held at bay a little the bleakness of the series.

Whether any of this is fair to this episode or not, it still comes to mind
when I watch it. So it only gets a Decent from me.


> Season Four, Episode 6: "Spin The Bottle"

> I said last time that I didn't really "get" STB. No, it's not
> considered cool to admit something like that when writing about pop-
> art, but I had to express the frustration I was feeling, since Joss's
> episodes generally have a lot beneath the surface, so I knew to look
> for depth, but I wasn't finding it in STB (or WITW). Especially given
> Lorne's portentious segments (which actually made me enjoy him for
> once) suggesting it'll be a big episode,

Lorne's narrative reminds me a little of what's being done in BtVS at
roughly the same time - CWDP. Structurally they're quite different, but
just using some kind of partly external structure gives each an aura of
importance. Internally, Spin the Bottle is a romp, while CWDP retains the
aura of importance.

On the surface I suppose CWDP is the more important episode, what with The
First laying down the gauntlet and Spike revealed as killer. But I think
it's at least arguable that STB matches it underneath. Especially in a kind
of symbolic way. Through a lightweight Tabula Rasa type of exercise,
illusion gets stripped away. But not nearly so harshly as Tabula Rasa -
though Cordelia going to Connor even with her memories restored does have to
hurt. It even seems almost easy at the end. Except for that terribly bleak
narration by Lorne. Why so bleak? At this point in the series, his
narration actually feels a bit out of place. (As does Cordelia's seemingly
nonsensical abandonment of Angel.)

What we know now points to something very different. The illusions weren't
removed. Greater ones were begun - kicking off a lengthy run that's all
about nothing we see being real. And memories aren't restored as much as
they're destroyed. Goodbye Cordelia.

Granted, that's not evident at this point in the run. But we're not first
time viewers. We know the implications. The underlying meaning of the
memories theme carries more weight now. Everything changes now. Next week
might be the announcement of that. But it's made in pure deception - not
really any more informative than STB. This episode is the season's fulcrum.

About Lorne. I'm a little mixed on the performance. The ghastly rendition
of Memories doesn't get things off to a good start for me. (Although,
conceptually, it's good to use that song.) I'm not sure it's Joss's best
writing either. A little flat at times, and almost always too obscure for
its own good. Especially when it plays up to the grand deception, as with
what Cordy really saw when she ran off at the end. Andy Hallett, on the
other hand, played the hell out of it for one of his best performances of
the series. I think this also may have been when I started to fully
appreciate Lorne's relationship with alcohol.


> or at least one whose
> foreshadowing is specific rather than vague. Revisiting the series
> and listening to the commentary only makes me less convinced that
> there's anything there to get. The point very much seems to be "let's
> have Cordelia and Wesley revert to the annoying versions of their
> characters, cuz that'd be fun!

Speaking for myself - it *is* fun.

> Wouldn't it be funny to see Wes fall
> down a lot?" We learn a little about how Fred used to tick, and
> precious little about anyone else. It's indulgence without much
> content to justify it.

It doesn't reveal the way Tabula Rasa does, but then I think this is more
specifically about untainted innocence compared to their messed up real
lives, which are about to get a whole lot more twisted. (Untainted
comparatively. Tough acting Gunn, for example, has surely seen and done a
lot. But then, in real life, he just murdered someone. By today's
standard, he reverted to innocence.) But there are some things that matter.

Probably most importantly, this is the last time you see real Cordelia.
This isn't exactly what Lorne had in mind with the memory spell, but in an
important sense this is restoring her true self - bringing back the memory
of Queen C before her life started getting turned upside down by rebars
through the chest, poverty, PTB visions, demon properties & Jasmine
possession. She may be the best example of the spell actually working. But
seen that way, the whole group is in the same place.

Angel is also interesting because you see the soul having an impact on him
even without the consuming guilt he usually has. He really doesn't want to
kill anybody. One probably could use this as one of the numerous benchmarks
for exploring the effect of soul and demon vampire essence, but I don't
think it's explored far enough to say anything conclusive. Still, I think
it's interesting.


> But, one might ask, is it fair to demand that
> every episode to have something wonderfully meaningful to say rather
> than just being an hour of (sorta) character-driven comedy?

In a Whedon series, the answer normally would be yes.


> Can't we
> just have a moment of levity before the coming storm?

We can have that too. And I think we did.


> Maybe, but I
> don't think it's unfair to ask it to be something more than a
> collection of gags that never really gels into either a story or a
> "Pangs"-style riot. rI still think that STB isn't nearly as clever or
> entertaining as it imagines it must be. I'm not saying it's devoid of
> value, or that it doesn't have a fair amount of amusing moments,
> because it does. So do lots of other TV shows.

Those other TV shows aren't made up of these characters at this moment.
This episode is about Fred unconsciously hitching up her pants 'cause
they're riding too low, and Lorne reaching for the 100 proof because the
world is too hard for his temperament, and best boy Wesley walking around
with a scar on his neck from when he had his throat slit and had his friends
abandon him. There's a swirl of context and nuance to the episode. It's
not just an abstract set of jokes told by nameless comics. Most of the
humor of Wesley falling down is remembering who he used to be. Next episode
we'll see him coolly and competently take his shotgun to an invincible
beast. The two scenes go together.

> Rating: Decent

Excellent for me. Not truly the best of the season, but the one I
appreciate the most. It also concludes what's been a pretty good season
start for me - possibly the best of the series.

It's not perfect. I already mentioned disliking the performance of
Memories. I'm also less than keen about Cordy's vision of the Beast at the
end. You speak of that (and later dream) at the end of this post. For me
it's a particularly cheap misdirect (dishonest may be more accurate) that
fits the ultimate narrative very badly.


> Season Four, Episode 7: "Apocalypse, Nowish"

> I didn't enjoy this show as much last time, or just wasn't as
> impressed with its build-up, or something. Maybe it does come a bit
> too quickly as the winter hiatus approaches too quickly. Nonetheless,
> it is a buildup, and it does almost as well as it can given the time
> frame. We start with juggling our personal problems, and steadily
> progress to some great visuals involving rains of birds and mystical
> symbols on maps. Onward to the Beast, whom I've never much liked,
> even as a proximate villain. It's a monster like every other,

Which is exactly what it's supposed to be, albeit an especially tough
skinned one. (Jasmine presumably knows her monsters.) The point of The
Beast is that he's only ever a tool that our heroes waste their time dashing
their selves upon. It itself is a stupid lunk.

The good parts of The Beast this episode aren't so much the monster itself -
though the big fight is good - are the connection to Connor (rising from his
birthplace) and the curious way it fails to seriously hurt Connor or
Cordelia.

Also, as an extra level of misdirect, it's initially uncertain that it
necessarily has to be evil. The rain of fire can't be good, but it doesn't
kill any of our heroes - just fends them off. And then, of course, there's
next episode when it goes after W&H rather than the good guys or LA in
general.


> so the
> fact that Team Angel (and later W&H) are so ineffectual feels like the
> hand of the script, not the badassery of the Beast.

That doesn't bother me. It's just the means of defining its abilities.
And, again, the more curious part is that it doesn't follow through with
kills. Its general conduct this episode and next is one of the better clues
that its working for someone else. It seems to be performing pre-planned
missions.


> Here, though, re-
> watching the rooftop fight and watching the DVD featurettes have
> increased my appreciation for how meticulously the fourth act is put
> together. It's one of the big fight scenes of the series, and a lot
> of work went into making it that way. The Beast isn't big enough a
> disaster, though, so we end with *fire raining from the sky*. Whether
> or not one feels it's been "earned" by the previous forty minutes (I
> was doubtful originally, now less so), that's quite a montage.

It sure is - one of my favorite visual moments of the series - especially
the part with Lilah's reflection in the window as she watches the fire rain
down. I think it's adequately earned too. The degree of it is abrupt, but
that unexpected quality is part of the drama now and coming. Neither AI nor
W&H are prepared for this. Least of all - Connor. Everybody's going to be
behind the curve from here until the season's end. That's the story
starting right now.


> And
> mixing the massive with the personal, that's in part just a backdrop
> for the bigger (to Angel, and to some fans) calamity of Cordelia and
> Connor having sex.

Which I kind of loathe, though that's mitigated by the intensity of Angel
witnessing it amid the rain of fire. Worse for me probably is the
seduction.


> I was never able to figure out what exactly is
> being done, filming- and acting-wise, to make literally every
> interaction between them scream "WRONG!" so universally to all viewers
> (whatever it is, the show wasn't doing it nearly as much in
> "Slouching" and "Supersymmetry"). It has the desired impact.

If you remember, pay attention to the music when they're together as we move
forward. As I recall, it will develop along with the growing ugliness of
Cordelia's more visible manipulation. Plus, I think they're taking
advantage of the age difference of the actors - perhaps perversely enhanced
by Charisma's pregnancy.

> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

Begrudgingly I have to rate it Good also. It's a very fine example of the
intense production style of the season that does keep one on the edge of
one's seat. Plus, it has some of my favorite Lilah dressed as Fred and
nervously watching the fire rain down. Then there's this:

Angel: You're trying to hide it. I can smell it on you?
Lilah: Chanel?
Angel: Fear.

Lilah's got her fear back. Oh, it's cropped up the last couple of times
she's run into Angel too. But it really breaks out this episode. I can
practically smell it on her too.


> Season Four, Episode 8: "Habeas Corpses"

> I've been staring at my screen for a few minutes, and I can't think of
> anything to say about this episode. It's a good but not stellar bit
> of destruction that I quite enjoy watching, entertaining enough to
> earn an easy Good in my ratings. Even if my attention wanders a
> little during the darkened-corridor sequences. Um... I adore the first
> Wesley/Lilah scene, a lot. "Funny thing about black and white: you
> mix it together and you get gray. And it doesn't matter how much
> white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but
> gray. And I don't see your Texas gal pal wearing that color. Come to
> think of it, she prefers black." Gavin Park gets one of the less
> dignified death scenes of recurring characters.

I like the surprise/implication factor of The Beast going after W&H - and
the way it gives the lie to Lilah's assertion that W&H is the best place to
be in an Apocalypse. I like the White Room scene. I like Gavin's fate.
And I like most everything to do with Wesley and Lilah. (I guess dressing
up as Fred wasn't that great an idea. Just fed his obsession.) Probably a
few other things I'm not remembering right now.

I didn't really care for most of the destruction and fighting at W&H. A lot
of running around and dull foot thumps and leaning on doors and really dull
zombies. After the precision and even beauty of last episode's mayhem, this
seems like a bunch of noise. I'm not too keen - and a little confused -
about Cordelia. (More in a moment.) Although I like most of the early
Lilah/Wesley scene, I'm not much taken with his rationale for breaking up.
The black and white, good and evil stuff rings hollow to me. Or maybe I'm
just not getting it. Does Wesley actually believe what he's saying?


> Okay, this bit was going to go into the general thoughts at the end,
> but that's too long and the entry for HC was too short, so... The
> seemingly unwieldy story of Pod!Cordy's

I forgot to mention how the pod people reference last episode makes me
laugh.


> motivations mostly holds
> together for me, but there are two things she does that don't make
> total sense to me, a major one and a minor one. The major one is
> cited by many people as a big honking source of confusion, and I'll
> talk about it in the next thread. The minor one comes in this
> episode. Most of the way she manipulates Connor is pretty clear,
> albeit really really slow, but I've never understood why she "tries"
> to leave him this episode. What does she stand to gain by doing
> this? She figures he wouldn't buy it if she fell into his bed too
> readily? A fiendish plan to make him want her more? She thinks she's
> done with him once she's harvested his gametes, and is only driven to
> really recruit him after Angel doesn't fall in line? Or, uh,
> something? Like I said, I don't get it.

I think there are a number of little confusing things during this period -
which may be a contributing cause to Charisma's less than consistent
performance. One thing this episode, for example, is the way she wakes up
next to Connor and looks at him with surprised shock and realization of what
they did the night before. It's a moment that plays as pure Cordelia - and
doesn't make a lot of sense as Jasmine. (Connor can't see her, so she
doesn't need to put on a performance.)

I suspect that the writers still weren't certain how exactly this was going
to work and to what extent actual Cordy remained. I fear that the writers
were determined to maintain the illusion even when it sacrificed continuity.
Either way it answers your question in the sense of there not being a good
answer. I'm not aware of a satisfying fanwank for it either.

> Rating: Good

The episode's OK. But it'll have to settle for Decent.


> Getting back to the show itself, let's talk a little bit more about
> Jasmine and Cordelia. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when our Power
> That Was first infiltrates and to what extent the control becomes
> complete. Some people have gone as far back as "Birthday."

Skip suggests that the manipulation goes back at least as far as City Of...,
though not direct possession.


> I prefer
> to keep Cordelia as herself for as long as possible, because
> otherwise, what's the point of all the time the show spends on her?
> Her behavior in S3 rings perfectly true to me (with regard to the
> demon powers, anyway. Not barbarian warriors), so I'm fine to take
> the show at its implication that the evil entered her on the higher
> plane. The spell in "Spin The Bottle" is said to be what awakened
> Jasmine, so I'm fine with that as a cutoff - before then it's Cordy,
> after that it's not. Some people point to bits of Cordelia-esque or
> Jasmine-esque behavior at other times to suggest some kind of shared
> influence, but I don't see what that would add to the story.

Since the mechanics are never really explained, we're left imagining the
gaps. I choose Birthday as start of possession, but not exactly control.
Cordelia remains Cordelia mentally, but she has new weird powers that seem
to pop up on their own. For whatever reason, Jasmine can't take complete
control without the steps between then and Spin the Bottle.

I like that approach because:

A) The conspiracy clearly involves Skip, and Birthday is when he first
"changes" Cordelia.
B) It explains why her S3 powers didn't seem to be in Cordelia's control.
They were really Jasmine's powers - and Jasmine wasn't letting go of them.
Of particular note, it explains why the visions didn't work the same way
they did for Doyle.
C) The PTB are being abruptly pushed out of the picture. The idea of
ascending Cordelia always seemed a stretch - especially the way Skip sold it
to her like some kind of grifter. And surely they wouldn't want Jasmine
taking over. Jasmine is acting pre-emptively, and one of the things she'd
want to do is to block the PTB's access to Cordelia while her game was
afoot. She probably has the power to do that while possessing Cordelia with
the PTB far away. Hell, the PTB might not even know about the ascension.
It didn't seem like Cordelia was spending any time with them.
D) Jasmine would also want to protect the body being prepared for her.
That would explain the protective white glow. (Jasmine glowed too.)
E) A key S3 moment setting up this season is when Cordelia gave Connor his
"soul colonic". (Again through unbidden white glowy magic from Cordy.) It
makes a whole lot of sense in the greater story for Jasmine to have been
responsible for that - to have planted the seed for their later connection.

Cordelia wouldn't know anything about this though, and would have complete
control of her mind and, usually, her body. So her character would remain
pure Cordelia throughout S3.


> This leads to a few questions, though. For instance, "Apocalypse,
> Nowish" opens with Cordelia having a nightmare in which she discusses
> being unable to articulate what she's feeling before being attacked.
> Why would the series be showing us this if she's already fully under a
> demon's control? One possible answer is that this represents the real
> Cordy, as an independently conscious being, watching everything that
> goes on for the rest of the year while kicking and screaming. That
> interpretation is sorta supported by a line in "You're Welcome." And
> it also feels more twisted and ****ed up the more I think about it, so
> it'll be my preferred explanation.

I like that explanation too. Alas, I don't really believe it in my heart.


OBS

In article <13u3t1ote32if2c@news.supernews.com>,
"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:

> Meanwhile, the business of Angel with the chairs is just plain fun. It's
> good when they logically figure stuff out. Of course Fred goes and figures
> it out on her own anyway - so maybe it didn't turn out to be all that
> useful. AtS isn't shy about showing futility. And I suppose the underlying
> point was to demonstrate Angel's photographic memory again. When exactly
> did we first see that?

I think that this was the first time it was brought up, after watching
him for six years, they suddenly decided to add that to his list of
talents.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13u3t1ote32if2c@news.supernews.com:

> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:69b6d98c-af74-433b-a09c-787cbb3e94ea@n77g2000hse.googlegroup
> s.com...
>

>> I prefer
>> to keep Cordelia as herself for as long as possible, because
>> otherwise, what's the point of all the time the show spends on
>> her? Her behavior in S3 rings perfectly true to me (with regard
>> to the demon powers, anyway. Not barbarian warriors), so I'm
>> fine to take the show at its implication that the evil entered
>> her on the higher plane. The spell in "Spin The Bottle" is
>> said to be what awakened Jasmine, so I'm fine with that as a
>> cutoff - before then it's Cordy, after that it's not. Some
>> people point to bits of Cordelia-esque or Jasmine-esque
>> behavior at other times to suggest some kind of shared
>> influence, but I don't see what that would add to the story.
>
> Since the mechanics are never really explained, we're left
> imagining the gaps. I choose Birthday as start of possession,
> but not exactly control. Cordelia remains Cordelia mentally, but
> she has new weird powers that seem to pop up on their own. For
> whatever reason, Jasmine can't take complete control without the
> steps between then and Spin the Bottle.
>

I tend to see Jasmine as not taking full control until "Long Day's
Journey," with "Spin the Bottle" and "Apocalypse, Nowish" as likely
key points in the process. I do think it's reasonable to see "Spin
the Bottle" as being a point when Jasmine starts to awaken a bit,
but she can't do more than work on Cordy's subconscious until her
"conception" at the end of "Apocalypse, Nowish." Whereupon she
starts to take conscious control, and by the time "Long Day's
Journey" rolls around she's in basically full control.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
news:8oudndN1Sa31Sn_anZ2dnUVZ_oKhnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:13u3t1ote32if2c@news.supernews.com:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:69b6d98c-af74-433b-a09c-787cbb3e94ea@n77g2000hse.googlegroup
>> s.com...
>>
>
>>> I prefer
>>> to keep Cordelia as herself for as long as possible, because
>>> otherwise, what's the point of all the time the show spends on
>>> her? Her behavior in S3 rings perfectly true to me (with regard
>>> to the demon powers, anyway. Not barbarian warriors), so I'm
>>> fine to take the show at its implication that the evil entered
>>> her on the higher plane. The spell in "Spin The Bottle" is
>>> said to be what awakened Jasmine, so I'm fine with that as a
>>> cutoff - before then it's Cordy, after that it's not. Some
>>> people point to bits of Cordelia-esque or Jasmine-esque
>>> behavior at other times to suggest some kind of shared
>>> influence, but I don't see what that would add to the story.
>>
>> Since the mechanics are never really explained, we're left
>> imagining the gaps. I choose Birthday as start of possession,
>> but not exactly control. Cordelia remains Cordelia mentally, but
>> she has new weird powers that seem to pop up on their own. For
>> whatever reason, Jasmine can't take complete control without the
>> steps between then and Spin the Bottle.
>>
>
> I tend to see Jasmine as not taking full control until "Long Day's
> Journey," with "Spin the Bottle" and "Apocalypse, Nowish" as likely
> key points in the process. I do think it's reasonable to see "Spin
> the Bottle" as being a point when Jasmine starts to awaken a bit,
> but she can't do more than work on Cordy's subconscious until her
> "conception" at the end of "Apocalypse, Nowish." Whereupon she
> starts to take conscious control, and by the time "Long Day's
> Journey" rolls around she's in basically full control.

That's not a bad approach since it can be used to explain the erratic
personality during that intermediate period. I still tend towards Spin the
Bottle as a more thorough take-over with the erratic being erratic story
telling from writers struggling to make up their mind. A couple reasons.
Mainly because plausibility seems to me to demand pretty active control by
Jasmine - especially in Apocalypse, Nowish. The conception seems too
critical to rely on subconscious prodding. I also struggle accounting for
real Cordelia if she isn't immediately suppressed. Wouldn't she be
complaining about memory gaps or otherwise acting strangely? It's hard to
imagine her not noticing that something's slowly taking her over.

You do bring up an interesting point about the conception though. Jamine in
true material form comes only via the baby. Why that would be isn't
explained either. But, then, try explaining why a material God is born in
the baby Jesus. Since so much of this season deals with religious,
especially Christian, allegory, a miracle birth would seem to be its own
explanation.

But what does that say about before the conception? If she doesn't really
manifest until conception, then is she really possessing Cordelia before
that? I don't know. It just adds to the sense that you never know what's
really going on this season - even when it's done and put away.

OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13u5p2ucaut5949@news.supernews.com:

> "Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:8oudndN1Sa31Sn_anZ2dnUVZ_oKhnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
>> news:13u3t1ote32if2c@news.supernews.com:
>>
>>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:69b6d98c-af74-433b-a09c-787cbb3e94ea@n77g2000hse.googlegro
>>> up s.com...
>>>
>>
>>>> I prefer
>>>> to keep Cordelia as herself for as long as possible, because
>>>> otherwise, what's the point of all the time the show spends
>>>> on her? Her behavior in S3 rings perfectly true to me (with
>>>> regard to the demon powers, anyway. Not barbarian warriors),
>>>> so I'm fine to take the show at its implication that the evil
>>>> entered her on the higher plane. The spell in "Spin The
>>>> Bottle" is said to be what awakened Jasmine, so I'm fine with
>>>> that as a cutoff - before then it's Cordy, after that it's
>>>> not. Some people point to bits of Cordelia-esque or
>>>> Jasmine-esque behavior at other times to suggest some kind of
>>>> shared influence, but I don't see what that would add to the
>>>> story.
>>>
>>> Since the mechanics are never really explained, we're left
>>> imagining the gaps. I choose Birthday as start of possession,
>>> but not exactly control. Cordelia remains Cordelia mentally,
>>> but she has new weird powers that seem to pop up on their own.
>>> For whatever reason, Jasmine can't take complete control
>>> without the steps between then and Spin the Bottle.
>>>
>>
>> I tend to see Jasmine as not taking full control until "Long
>> Day's Journey," with "Spin the Bottle" and "Apocalypse, Nowish"
>> as likely key points in the process. I do think it's
>> reasonable to see "Spin the Bottle" as being a point when
>> Jasmine starts to awaken a bit, but she can't do more than work
>> on Cordy's subconscious until her "conception" at the end of
>> "Apocalypse, Nowish." Whereupon she starts to take conscious
>> control, and by the time "Long Day's Journey" rolls around
>> she's in basically full control.
>
> That's not a bad approach since it can be used to explain the
> erratic personality during that intermediate period. I still
> tend towards Spin the Bottle as a more thorough take-over with
> the erratic being erratic story telling from writers struggling
> to make up their mind. A couple reasons. Mainly because
> plausibility seems to me to demand pretty active control by
> Jasmine - especially in Apocalypse, Nowish. The conception
> seems too critical to rely on subconscious prodding. I also
> struggle accounting for real Cordelia if she isn't immediately
> suppressed. Wouldn't she be complaining about memory gaps or
> otherwise acting strangely? It's hard to imagine her not
> noticing that something's slowly taking her over.
>

Basically, I don't see that active control by Jasmine is necessary
for anything that Cordy does until LDJ.

I think Jasmine takes over fully in the time gap between HC and
LDJ. HC itself is an open question, but I'd tend to say Cordy is
still mostly Cordy there, since HC takes place right after AN and
Jasmine has just barely been conceived.

It doesn't have to be a "slow" takeover, either. Most of it could
be all at once, as soon as Jasmine has reached some needed stage of
development. At any rate, Connor is the only person around Cordy
during that time gap and he's hardly likely to be noticing whether
Cordy is acting strangely.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

On Mar 20, 5:25 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Michael Ikeda" <mmik...@erols.com> wrote in message
>
> > I tend to see Jasmine as not taking full control until "Long Day's
> > Journey," with "Spin the Bottle" and "Apocalypse, Nowish" as likely
> > key points in the process. I do think it's reasonable to see "Spin
> > the Bottle" as being a point when Jasmine starts to awaken a bit,
> > but she can't do more than work on Cordy's subconscious until her
> > "conception" at the end of "Apocalypse, Nowish." Whereupon she
> > starts to take conscious control, and by the time "Long Day's
> > Journey" rolls around she's in basically full control.
>
> That's not a bad approach since it can be used to explain the erratic
> personality during that intermediate period. I still tend towards Spin the
> Bottle as a more thorough take-over with the erratic being erratic story
> telling from writers struggling to make up their mind. A couple reasons.
> Mainly because plausibility seems to me to demand pretty active control by
> Jasmine - especially in Apocalypse, Nowish. The conception seems too
> critical to rely on subconscious prodding. I also struggle accounting for
> real Cordelia if she isn't immediately suppressed. Wouldn't she be
> complaining about memory gaps or otherwise acting strangely? It's hard to
> imagine her not noticing that something's slowly taking her over.

Yes. Although she can be kinda dense sometimes...

STB is good enough for me too for several reasons, some of which are
the same as you've hinted at. It simplifies the story, reinforces the
characters' belief that it was the turning point... and there's the
fact that her ****ing Connor doesn't feel convincing or natural to me,
so I'd prefer to believe that it has an explanation.

-AOQ

On Mar 20, 4:23 am, Don Sample <dsam...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <13u3t1ote32i...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> > Meanwhile, the business of Angel with the chairs is just plain fun. It's
> > good when they logically figure stuff out. Of course Fred goes and figures
> > it out on her own anyway - so maybe it didn't turn out to be all that
> > useful. AtS isn't shy about showing futility. And I suppose the underlying
> > point was to demonstrate Angel's photographic memory again. When exactly
> > did we first see that?
>
> I think that this was the first time it was brought up, after watching
> him for six years, they suddenly decided to add that to his list of
> talents.

GUNN: How come you never pulled out this parlor trick before?
ANGEL: It's not an automatic reflex. It just kicked in when I saw
Lilah.

I think that's as close as we get to having it explained.

-AOQ
~something "just kicking in" sounds pretty automatic to me~

On Mar 20, 12:20 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:69b6d98c-af74-433b-a09c-787cbb3e94ea@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> > Meanwhile, Acker gets a good chance to
> > show off her versatility - and Fred's - as she gets a chance to pay
> > back the bastard who ruined her life. Wesley comes off very well as
> > Fred's matter-of-fact enabler, aware of the consequences but leaving
> > her to make the decisions.
>
> He comes off well? Hmmm. I'd say that he certainly played to Fred's mood
> and desires. To the extent that's respectful of her free will is to the
> same extent that he's enabling her poor decisions. Wesley is walking some
> tricky moral and ethical ground here. That matter of fact balancing of
> consequences (which comes off more as token acknowledgment so that it can be
> dismissed) looks an awful lot like helping to bring Fred down to his level
> of making dubious (and brutal) hard decisions. Meanwhile, it sure is
> convenient for him that it's the way back into Fred's good graces. (At
> least seemingly.) Aside from still having a thing for, she had shut the
> door on him at least as hard as had Angel. And, well, he's performed his
> penance to Angel. Fred's the obstacle.

Yeah, it does sound self-serving when you put it that way, doesn't
it? Thing is, if given the choice between Gunn's ultimately
patronizing attitude and Wesley's twisted Watcher routine, one can see
why Fred would prefer the help of someone who understands what she's
going through and what she's capable of. His attempt to warn her
about what she's getting into is well taken, even if it's token.

> It's a little early to really get into the Cordy/Connor thing, but I might
> as well get it out of the way now. I've been torn sometimes about how
> creepy it really is. Charisma Carpenter and Vincent Kartheiser together is
> always unsettling. But in-story, the age difference isn't really that
> large.

As I'm not the first person to point out, it's nowhere near the age
difference between Cordelia and Angel.

> Second is the ending of Gunn/Fred. (Not official yet, but pretty much a
> done deal.) Now this isn't so bad. Indeed, the emotional drama of it works
> very well, and will continue to be well used furthering multiple characters
> and situations. It's just a shame that this little corner of happiness had
> to be ripped from the series. Not just for itself - though breakfast with
> Fred and Gunn sure was nice, whether at the diner or pancake kiss in bed -
> but because it held at bay a little the bleakness of the series.

I understand missing the relief from what can be an oppressive period
to some viewers (a totally unrelated topic elsewhere on the Internets
gave rise to emphasizing the difference between "dark" and "bleak,"
which might be useful for adjective choices). In this case, I'm
willing to give it up for the way everyone starts to fall apart
personally after Angel goes evil. The dysfunctionality of the ATS
family will synchronize well with everything else going to hell, and
help the season be successful in its big task of maintaining ever
constant/rising tension without getting monotonous.

> Lorne's narrative reminds me a little of what's being done in BtVS at
> roughly the same time - CWDP. Structurally they're quite different, but
> just using some kind of partly external structure gives each an aura of
> importance. Internally, Spin the Bottle is a romp, while CWDP retains the
> aura of importance.
>
> On the surface I suppose CWDP is the more important episode, what with The
> First laying down the gauntlet and Spike revealed as killer. But I think
> it's at least arguable that STB matches it underneath. Especially in a kind
> of symbolic way. Through a lightweight Tabula Rasa type of exercise,
> illusion gets stripped away. But not nearly so harshly as Tabula Rasa -
> though Cordelia going to Connor even with her memories restored does have to
> hurt. It even seems almost easy at the end. Except for that terribly bleak
> narration by Lorne. Why so bleak? At this point in the series, his
> narration actually feels a bit out of place. (As does Cordelia's seemingly
> nonsensical abandonment of Angel.)
>
> What we know now points to something very different. The illusions weren't
> removed. Greater ones were begun - kicking off a lengthy run that's all
> about nothing we see being real. And memories aren't restored as much as
> they're destroyed. Goodbye Cordelia.
>
> Granted, that's not evident at this point in the run. But we're not first
> time viewers. We know the implications. The underlying meaning of the
> memories theme carries more weight now. Everything changes now. Next week
> might be the announcement of that. But it's made in pure deception - not
> really any more informative than STB. This episode is the season's fulcrum.

Where is this weight of which you speak? Lorne's narration is a
deliberately jarring bit of tone, but otherwise, what do you have?
Things weren't as they seemed with Cordelia before STB and aren't
afterward. The characters had come a long way from their roots before
STB and are in the same places afterward. The episode continues to
feel more like a detour (not an especially substantial one, but that's
a separate topic) than a fulcrum.

> I didn't really care for most of the destruction and fighting at W&H. A lot
> of running around and dull foot thumps and leaning on doors and really dull
> zombies. After the precision and even beauty of last episode's mayhem, this
> seems like a bunch of noise. I'm not too keen - and a little confused -
> about Cordelia. (More in a moment.) Although I like most of the early
> Lilah/Wesley scene, I'm not much taken with his rationale for breaking up.
> The black and white, good and evil stuff rings hollow to me. Or maybe I'm
> just not getting it. Does Wesley actually believe what he's saying?

I'm not big on that aspect either, actually, despite how great a scene
it is. My answer at the moment to "does he actually believe what he's
saying" would be that I doubt it, but he wishes he could. He stated
worldview gets more loudly black and white when he's on uncertain
footing. Late-ATS Wesley is interesting to me in part because I don't
always understand what he's thinking, though. I came into S4
expecting him to have given up and/or no longer care, but in fact, he
never goes there.

> > Okay, this bit was going to go into the general thoughts at the end,
> > but that's too long and the entry for HC was too short, so... The
> > seemingly unwieldy story of Pod!Cordy's
>
> I forgot to mention how the pod people reference last episode makes me
> laugh.

Now, I've actually seen a movie called _Pod People_ (it was the basis
for one of my favorite episodes of _Mystery Science Theater 3000_),
and it's not about possession. As one character summarizes, that
movie has nothing to do with either pods or people. When I mentioned
this last time, Scythe responded with "thankfully, Mutant Enemy
writers never slip subtextually interesting details into the
background of episodes." Cordy can only watch from here...

[Cordelia's behavior]
> > Or, uh,
> > something? Like I said, I don't get it.
>
> I think there are a number of little confusing things during this period -
> which may be a contributing cause to Charisma's less than consistent
> performance.

She's not the best actor on the show, but I do have to wonder how much
the writers told her about what was going on and how much she had to
kinda guess what was called for. I wish I could explain away all of
Cordelia's "off" moments in AN and HC as deliberate, but then you move
on to the next disc and there are continued efforts to make her speech
patterns and delivery be a close facsimile of real-Cordy. So it's
more likely that things simply weren't clicking on a scripting level
with the attempts at emotional turmoil and apparent heartfelt
speeches.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:ee88a833-4b61-4b57-bc36-b6f5393516b0@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 20, 12:20 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:69b6d98c-af74-433b-a09c-787cbb3e94ea@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>> > Meanwhile, Acker gets a good chance to
>> > show off her versatility - and Fred's - as she gets a chance to pay
>> > back the bastard who ruined her life. Wesley comes off very well as
>> > Fred's matter-of-fact enabler, aware of the consequences but leaving
>> > her to make the decisions.
>>
>> He comes off well? Hmmm. I'd say that he certainly played to Fred's
>> mood
>> and desires. To the extent that's respectful of her free will is to the
>> same extent that he's enabling her poor decisions. Wesley is walking
>> some
>> tricky moral and ethical ground here. That matter of fact balancing of
>> consequences (which comes off more as token acknowledgment so that it can
>> be
>> dismissed) looks an awful lot like helping to bring Fred down to his
>> level
>> of making dubious (and brutal) hard decisions. Meanwhile, it sure is
>> convenient for him that it's the way back into Fred's good graces. (At
>> least seemingly.) Aside from still having a thing for, she had shut the
>> door on him at least as hard as had Angel. And, well, he's performed his
>> penance to Angel. Fred's the obstacle.
>
> Yeah, it does sound self-serving when you put it that way, doesn't
> it? Thing is, if given the choice between Gunn's ultimately
> patronizing attitude and Wesley's twisted Watcher routine, one can see
> why Fred would prefer the help of someone who understands what she's
> going through and what she's capable of. His attempt to warn her
> about what she's getting into is well taken, even if it's token.

Oh, sure. And her motives weren't all that clean either. She wanted
somebody to help her murder a guy. She doesn't think Gunn is up to that.
But she thinks Wesley is. In context, that's not exactly a compliment to
Wesley. It's not just his brains and books that she wants. It's also his
perceived amorality. And sure enough, he gives her exactly what she wants.

It's really a bit twisted for both of them. Which may be part of why they
can't really work a romance until after the Connor spell purges much of
their guilt.


>> Granted, that's not evident at this point in the run. But we're not
>> first
>> time viewers. We know the implications. The underlying meaning of the
>> memories theme carries more weight now. Everything changes now. Next
>> week
>> might be the announcement of that. But it's made in pure deception - not
>> really any more informative than STB. This episode is the season's
>> fulcrum.
>
> Where is this weight of which you speak? Lorne's narration is a
> deliberately jarring bit of tone, but otherwise, what do you have?
> Things weren't as they seemed with Cordelia before STB and aren't
> afterward. The characters had come a long way from their roots before
> STB and are in the same places afterward. The episode continues to
> feel more like a detour (not an especially substantial one, but that's
> a separate topic) than a fulcrum.

There are two primary events. The memory spell waking Jasmine up and Wesley
effectively returning to the fold. We didn't know about the former, though
now we do in retrospect. In combination they create the impression of a
broken AI restored. Cordelia's herself again and Wesley's back. But in
truth it's a kind of crumbling of the old. Gunn and Fred start fighting -
heading to breakup. Wesley only adds to that dissension, while showing
himself to be nothing like Wesley of old. Cordelia not only isn't back, but
is effectively destroyed as the possessed body leaves the premises and makes
real what had previously seemed an accidental relationship with Connor. The
all-around mess is largely established here, but more clearly announced next
episode.


>> I didn't really care for most of the destruction and fighting at W&H. A
>> lot
>> of running around and dull foot thumps and leaning on doors and really
>> dull
>> zombies. After the precision and even beauty of last episode's mayhem,
>> this
>> seems like a bunch of noise. I'm not too keen - and a little confused -
>> about Cordelia. (More in a moment.) Although I like most of the early
>> Lilah/Wesley scene, I'm not much taken with his rationale for breaking
>> up.
>> The black and white, good and evil stuff rings hollow to me. Or maybe
>> I'm
>> just not getting it. Does Wesley actually believe what he's saying?
>
> I'm not big on that aspect either, actually, despite how great a scene
> it is. My answer at the moment to "does he actually believe what he's
> saying" would be that I doubt it, but he wishes he could. He stated
> worldview gets more loudly black and white when he's on uncertain
> footing. Late-ATS Wesley is interesting to me in part because I don't
> always understand what he's thinking, though. I came into S4
> expecting him to have given up and/or no longer care, but in fact, he
> never goes there.

I tend to opt for it really being about chasing after Fred. He's just
unwilling to admit that to Lilah. So he baffles her with bullshit.


>> > Okay, this bit was going to go into the general thoughts at the end,
>> > but that's too long and the entry for HC was too short, so... The
>> > seemingly unwieldy story of Pod!Cordy's
>>
>> I forgot to mention how the pod people reference last episode makes me
>> laugh.
>
> Now, I've actually seen a movie called _Pod People_ (it was the basis
> for one of my favorite episodes of _Mystery Science Theater 3000_),
> and it's not about possession. As one character summarizes, that
> movie has nothing to do with either pods or people. When I mentioned
> this last time, Scythe responded with "thankfully, Mutant Enemy
> writers never slip subtextually interesting details into the
> background of episodes." Cordy can only watch from here...

Ah, Scythe sure could be dry sometimes.


> [Cordelia's behavior]
>> > Or, uh,
>> > something? Like I said, I don't get it.
>>
>> I think there are a number of little confusing things during this
>> period -
>> which may be a contributing cause to Charisma's less than consistent
>> performance.
>
> She's not the best actor on the show, but I do have to wonder how much
> the writers told her about what was going on and how much she had to
> kinda guess what was called for. I wish I could explain away all of
> Cordelia's "off" moments in AN and HC as deliberate, but then you move
> on to the next disc and there are continued efforts to make her speech
> patterns and delivery be a close facsimile of real-Cordy. So it's
> more likely that things simply weren't clicking on a scripting level
> with the attempts at emotional turmoil and apparent heartfelt
> speeches.

The first time I rewatched this season I was specifically trying to see if
you could tell from Cordelia's behavior just when Jasmine took over. The
exercise proved futile. Though it sure seems to have generated a fanwank
heaven.

OBS

On Mar 25, 1:17 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:ee88a833-4b61-4b57-bc36-b6f5393516b0@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 20, 12:20 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:69b6d98c-af74-433b-a09c-787cbb3e94ea@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Meanwhile, Acker gets a good chance to
> >> > show off her versatility - and Fred's - as she gets a chance to pay
> >> > back the bastard who ruined her life. Wesley comes off very well as
> >> > Fred's matter-of-fact enabler, aware of the consequences but leaving
> >> > her to make the decisions.
>
> >> He comes off well? Hmmm. I'd say that he certainly played to Fred's
> >> mood
> >> and desires. To the extent that's respectful of her free will is to the
> >> same extent that he's enabling her poor decisions. Wesley is walking
> >> some
> >> tricky moral and ethical ground here. That matter of fact balancing of
> >> consequences (which comes off more as token acknowledgment so that it can
> >> be
> >> dismissed) looks an awful lot like helping to bring Fred down to his
> >> level
> >> of making dubious (and brutal) hard decisions. Meanwhile, it sure is
> >> convenient for him that it's the way back into Fred's good graces. (At
> >> least seemingly.) Aside from still having a thing for, she had shut the
> >> door on him at least as hard as had Angel. And, well, he's performed his
> >> penance to Angel. Fred's the obstacle.
>
> > Yeah, it does sound self-serving when you put it that way, doesn't
> > it? Thing is, if given the choice between Gunn's ultimately
> > patronizing attitude and Wesley's twisted Watcher routine, one can see
> > why Fred would prefer the help of someone who understands what she's
> > going through and what she's capable of. His attempt to warn her
> > about what she's getting into is well taken, even if it's token.
>
> Oh, sure. And her motives weren't all that clean either. She wanted
> somebody to help her murder a guy. She doesn't think Gunn is up to that.
> But she thinks Wesley is. In context, that's not exactly a compliment to
> Wesley.

If all else fails, though, he can make himself indispensible to her.
Even if it excludes him from being with her theoretically, she's still
coming to him for stuff that he can do and Gunn can't.

Meanwhile, finally caught a bit of (super)symmetry for our doomed
couple that's been drifting under my radar. "Charles doesn't have it
in him. It's part of what I love about him." My lover isn't made to
go to the murderous places that I need to sometimes.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:09e3a791-914d-414b-bf28-513d94382e2c@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 25, 1:17 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:ee88a833-4b61-4b57-bc36-b6f5393516b0@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 20, 12:20 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> >> messagenews:69b6d98c-af74-433b-a09c-787cbb3e94ea@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > Meanwhile, Acker gets a good chance to
>> >> > show off her versatility - and Fred's - as she gets a chance to pay
>> >> > back the bastard who ruined her life. Wesley comes off very well as
>> >> > Fred's matter-of-fact enabler, aware of the consequences but leaving
>> >> > her to make the decisions.
>>
>> >> He comes off well? Hmmm. I'd say that he certainly played to Fred's
>> >> mood
>> >> and desires. To the extent that's respectful of her free will is to
>> >> the
>> >> same extent that he's enabling her poor decisions. Wesley is walking
>> >> some
>> >> tricky moral and ethical ground here. That matter of fact balancing
>> >> of
>> >> consequences (which comes off more as token acknowledgment so that it
>> >> can
>> >> be
>> >> dismissed) looks an awful lot like helping to bring Fred down to his
>> >> level
>> >> of making dubious (and brutal) hard decisions. Meanwhile, it sure is
>> >> convenient for him that it's the way back into Fred's good graces.
>> >> (At
>> >> least seemingly.) Aside from still having a thing for, she had shut
>> >> the
>> >> door on him at least as hard as had Angel. And, well, he's performed
>> >> his
>> >> penance to Angel. Fred's the obstacle.
>>
>> > Yeah, it does sound self-serving when you put it that way, doesn't
>> > it? Thing is, if given the choice between Gunn's ultimately
>> > patronizing attitude and Wesley's twisted Watcher routine, one can see
>> > why Fred would prefer the help of someone who understands what she's
>> > going through and what she's capable of. His attempt to warn her
>> > about what she's getting into is well taken, even if it's token.
>>
>> Oh, sure. And her motives weren't all that clean either. She wanted
>> somebody to help her murder a guy. She doesn't think Gunn is up to that.
>> But she thinks Wesley is. In context, that's not exactly a compliment to
>> Wesley.
>
> If all else fails, though, he can make himself indispensible to her.
> Even if it excludes him from being with her theoretically, she's still
> coming to him for stuff that he can do and Gunn can't.
>
> Meanwhile, finally caught a bit of (super)symmetry for our doomed
> couple that's been drifting under my radar. "Charles doesn't have it
> in him. It's part of what I love about him." My lover isn't made to
> go to the murderous places that I need to sometimes.

Oh, yeah. That's a huge line. The illusions they held of each other by
itself show they weren't the perfect couple imagined by everybody. (Except
maybe Wesley.)

OBS