Discussion Question: Why did Korba betray Paul?

On Mar 24, 5:25 am, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Discussion Question:  Why did Korba betray Paul?

Korba... loyal Fedykin turned zealot religious priest. I seem to
recall that he was Fremen at heart, and above all else. So when the
Fremen began to revolt against Paul's new order and religion, he
naturally went along with thinking it was the "loyal" thing to do.

I would definitely have to re-read Dune Messiah to get into the
intricacies, but the thoughts on Wikipedia (I know, I know...) suggest
that Korba represents the unintended consequences when religious
figures (Paul) create religious fundamentalism around themselves, and
how it can and will destroy them.

> Discussion Question: Why did Korba betray Paul?

U: Korba... loyal Fedykin turned zealot religious priest. I seem to
recall that he was Fremen at heart, and above all else. So when the
Fremen began to revolt against Paul's new order and religion, he
naturally went along with thinking it was the "loyal" thing to do.

T: I had the impression that the vast majority of the Fremen were loyal to
Paul. So the question arises, Why did Korba choose to go along with a
minority of Fremen?

U: I would definitely have to re-read Dune Messiah to get into the
intricacies, but the thoughts on Wikipedia (I know, I know...) suggest
that Korba represents the unintended consequences when religious
figures (Paul) create religious fundamentalism around themselves, and
how it can and will destroy them.

T: I'm not sure about that interpretation. It's not common for religions
to turn against their founder, is it? Has that ever happened in history?

On Mar 26, 4:54 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> T:  I'm not sure about that interpretation.  It's not common for religions
> to turn against their founder, is it?  Has that ever happened in history?

Well, you have to remember this is Frank Herbert's universe, which he
created to explore the ideas he had about religious extremism such as
this. I think it's viable that religious zeatotry could take on a life
of it's own, and even canibalize the supposed figurehead of the
religion itself. Most religions become fanatical, or at least get
fanatical splintered factions, after the founder is dead. That founder
can then be used as an idea, not a living person. Paul is still alive
and leading in Dune Messiah, and the zealots may have wanted him out
of the way to pursue their own goals, much like how the Navigators and
Bene Gesserit wanted Paul gone.

Again, it's been awhile since I've read the book, so I'm only going on
memory impression.

"Unfeign" <chris.mocella@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e11f2582-61aa-49bd-9fb9-200cb45a896a@e60g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 26, 4:54 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> T: I'm not sure about that interpretation. It's not common for religions
> to turn against their founder, is it? Has that ever happened in history?

U: Well, you have to remember this is Frank Herbert's universe, which he
created to explore the ideas he had about religious extremism such as
this. I think it's viable that religious zeatotry could take on a life
of it's own, and even canibalize the supposed figurehead of the
religion itself. Most religions become fanatical, or at least get
fanatical splintered factions, after the founder is dead. That founder
can then be used as an idea, not a living person. Paul is still alive
and leading in Dune Messiah, and the zealots may have wanted him out
of the way to pursue their own goals, much like how the Navigators and
Bene Gesserit wanted Paul gone.

Again, it's been awhile since I've read the book, so I'm only going on
memory impression.

T: Are you saying that Korba had genuine religious convictions, that led
him to want to kill the founder of his religion?

On Mar 27, 6:47 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> T:  Are you saying that Korba had genuine religious convictions, that led
> him to want to kill the founder of his religion?

He wasn't just a general observer of the Mua'dib religion, he was a
born-and-raised Fremen, a trained Fedykin (ultra-loyal fanatical
warrior), and ultimately a high-level priest. I think that his
ingrained cultural upbringing (Fremen) plus his dual fanatical
training and duties led him to a warped sense of what was "the right
thing to do." I think Herbert may very well have been using him as a
tool to show how the products of tyrranical devotion can lead down the
deadly paths, a common theme in the novels.

Much later on, the many incarnations of Duncan Idaho, fanatically
devoted to the Atredies, continually made attempts, and ultimately
succeeded, in assassinating Leto II. Herbert used many different
religious devotions throughout the novels... there's the Fremen
prophecy, the Mua'dib religion, the Leto II religion, the Bene Tleilax
religion, the legend of Sheanna, etc. In fact, the only major
character I can think of who wasn't consumed by the products of their
own religion/legend is Miles Teg. These types of events make the Bene
Gesserit "Missionaria Protectiva" all the more understandable.
Manipulating religions, their dogmas, legends, and prophecies, can be
extremely valuable and deadly tools, althought often to suicidal
ends.

It would be interesting to know what would have happend to Murbella in
Dune 7.

"Unfeign" <chris.mocella@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c3dde26-5ffe-4e8b-a945-287b7a4f3fae@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 27, 6:47 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> T: Are you saying that Korba had genuine religious convictions, that led
> him to want to kill the founder of his religion?

U: He wasn't just a general observer of the Mua'dib religion, he was a
born-and-raised Fremen, a trained Fedykin (ultra-loyal fanatical
warrior), and ultimately a high-level priest. I think that his
ingrained cultural upbringing (Fremen) plus his dual fanatical
training and duties led him to a warped sense of what was "the right
thing to do." I think Herbert may very well have been using him as a
tool to show how the products of tyrranical devotion can lead down the
deadly paths, a common theme in the novels.

T: Yes, but I'm not sure why *all* the Fedykin didn't want to kill Paul.
It could be that being both a high level priest and a Fedykin might dispose
someone to engage in traitorous behavior, but I'm not sure why that would be
so. Let me advance two other possible explanations. If Paul was a Christ
figure, and the Fedykin were his version of the 12 apostles, then Korba
would be the Judas figure. Another interpretation might characterize Korba
as a corrupt official who believed that Paul's administrative oversight
would jeopardize his comfortable position. We should note that Paul said
some upsetting things to Korba in Dune Messiah. For example, he announced
that the priest Korba "was my creation." In addition, he forced Korba to
personally kill some Sarduakar.

U: Much later on, the many incarnations of Duncan Idaho, fanatically
devoted to the Atredies, continually made attempts, and ultimately
succeeded, in assassinating Leto II.

T: Yes but Duncan never liked the idea of Atreides starting religions.

U: Herbert used many different
religious devotions throughout the novels... there's the Fremen
prophecy, the Mua'dib religion, the Leto II religion, the Bene Tleilax
religion, the legend of Sheanna, etc. In fact, the only major
character I can think of who wasn't consumed by the products of their
own religion/legend is Miles Teg.

T: But there were the Jews.

U: These types of events make the Bene
Gesserit "Missionaria Protectiva" all the more understandable.
Manipulating religions, their dogmas, legends, and prophecies, can be
extremely valuable and deadly tools, althought often to suicidal
ends.

T: True!

U: It would be interesting to know what would have happend to Murbella in
Dune 7.

T: Check out Hunters of Dune! But, I'm just kidding about that. ;-)