A reminder: To these threads, Buffy seems like a good leader. Her
hair is shiny.


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 9: "Never Leave Me"
Writer: Drew Goddard
Director: David Solomon

This is better. Even if, as was argued in some parts last time, the
Spike portions cover a lot of the same ground as "Sleeper," they cover
it in a much more fulfilling way. I feel like I had a healthy amount
of skepticism about the way the relationship between Buffy and Spike
would develop during Season Seven, but scenes like the second basement
argument got me on the show's page. It's layered, intense, and
heartfelt, not to mention one of our only looks at how Spike thinks
about the stuff he tries to avoid thinking about. In the meantime,
dialogue crackles, and the fight scene is pretty creative with its use
of human props. The cast gels here, working as a team and keeping
their worries subdued but unmistakable - I especially like the Buffy/
Willow "how're you doing in there?" exchange, Rational Xander, and
Xander/Anya as interrogation team. My deepest love, of course, has to
be reserved for Willow and Andrew trying to out-evil each other.
"Humor with a point" isn't exactly uncommon on this show, but I made
an effort to mention it in the reviews whenever I thought it nailed
that balance. Not so wild about the ending, but otherwise NLM is a
clear highlight of the mid-season period. When I watch "The Girl In
Question," or read "Wolves At The Gate," I try to protect myself by
chanting Drew Goddard's Buffyverse accomplishments as a mantra, and
this is one of them.
Rating: Good


Season Seven, Episode 10: "Bring On The Night"
Writers: Marti Noxon and Douglas Petrie
Director: David Grossman

I think we all felt there was something a little awry here.
Everyone's taking the First Evil, a rather silly video game style one-
off from S3 like a serious villain. Giles returns from his
cliffhanger to immediately be marginalized while the show continues to
go about tearing down his integrity whilst setting up the most drawn
out joke ever. The house is filling with characters who seem designed
to make us tune them out, and it won't stop. Random characters like
Joyce make cameos for no apparent reason, or as it turns out in this
example, none that ever becomes apparent. One can really see the
issues that the second half of the season will have being traced out
here. I originally called "Bring On The Night" one of the rare
episodes where the action scenes were great and the stuff with people
talking weren't. It's not quite that dichotomous, really. It's more
that the episode has some really great scenes and a bunch of stuff in
between. I'll continue to hold up the first fight with the Übervamp
as a classic in making an impressive monster, and an example of
vintage horror-movie tropes used well in BTVS. Moments like that
exist in the talky parts too. Willow stands out, not only for the
impressively filmed attack on her but also for how she reacts. And
for big moments, can't go without mentioning "... and it'll choke on
me." At times like that, I want to like BOTN better than I do, but
they're just too fleeting. In addition, I should mention that this
episode has one of my absolute favorite lines this time around, my
favorite Andrew non sequitur (see the heading).
Rating: Decent


Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
Writer: David Fury
Director: Michael Grossman

Has there ever been more of an Act Four episode? Building to the
arena sequence is the point of everything that's done. (Well, there's
also the visit to the Eye, which is both enjoyable and important. But
I'm reluctant to mention it for fear that it will re-start the tedious
disagreements about which Buffy resurrection was the problem, despite
the fact that it's blindingly obvious to me.) Really, this one comes
down to Buffy tearing a monster's head off and saving the he-damsel in
distress. If that sort of thing didn't make for good TV, we wouldn't
be watching _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_. Buffy overcomes a difficult
foe through sheer stubborn persistence, and her ability to find new
things to try anywhere until something works. She also tries to
reduce everything into a show in which she solves everything, despite
her lack of an actual plan, with a one-on-one pummeling while everyone
else shuts the hell up and watches. I'd say the writers are making a
few points at once here. I thought that the way Buffy's being set up
for a bit of a fall was quite clear and noticeable as a first-time
viewer too, but that time I was a little more caught up in the fact
that it's also a stirring feel-good moment, more so than her speech at
the end of the previous show. (Not that I think they're redundant.
You kinda need both.)
Rating: Good


Additional comments on S7D3: I'm still enjoying _Buffy_, but at this
point (the four-episode run from "Sleeper" to "Showtime" - although
they're separated by a winter hiatus, they go together), I don't know
how much I'm feeling it, NLM excepted. S7 is much the same way, where
the individual episodes get rated well but I don't feel so good about
it. In my opinion, ATS S4, despite also being quite messy, has a
"more than the sum of its parts" momentum that BTVS S7 doesn't manage
so often. OBS called these four episodes of S7 the least rewarding
part of the series last time through. I wonder if the fact that the
show is spending way more time than it used to on sorting out its
mythology and elaborate, sprawling storylines has finally caught up
with it. Or, as best summarized by Ian G., "this is actually why I
don't think the group of 4 episodes ending in this one are
particularly good, they're too plot driven and not particularly
resonant emotionally or thematically."

It's weird remembering how late in the series it is that BTVS starts
laying down the rules and explanations about how the Slayer line
works. Before that, I really didn't think much about the ancient
forces behind Buffy ending up as One Girl In All The World, because it
didn't seem very important. Even the capitalizable term "Potential"
hadn't firmly taken root yet at this point in the series. It's also
weird remembering when Kennedy of the winged house didn't stand out so
much, or annoy me at all. Even the overdone flirting doesn't really
bother me pre-TKIM.

I wasn't just poking fun at my favorite form of televised
entertainment when I called the First "video game style." I've read
that the player actually does fight against it in one of the BTVS
video games, made pre-S7.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: To these threads, Buffy seems like a good leader. Her
> hair is shiny.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 9: "Never Leave Me"
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
<snip>
> of human props. The cast gels here, working as a team and keeping
> their worries subdued but unmistakable - I especially like the Buffy/
> Willow "how're you doing in there?" exchange,

Not for the first time, it seems Anya's been getting on Willow's nerves.

> Rational Xander, and
> Xander/Anya as interrogation team. My deepest love, of course, has to
> be reserved for Willow and Andrew trying to out-evil each other.

Willow wins. Even Andrew is smart enough to know he's roasted geek if
he *really* pisses her off (and he *did* hit a nerve for a second.)

> Has there ever been more of an Act Four episode? Building to the
> arena sequence is the point of everything that's done. (Well, there's
> also the visit to the Eye, which is both enjoyable and important. But
> I'm reluctant to mention it for fear that it will re-start the tedious
> disagreements about which Buffy resurrection was the problem

Aw, come on, where's your spirit of adventure? Like that argument
*really* needs much of a catalyst.

> the fact that it's blindingly obvious to me.)

Uh, oh...

> It's weird remembering how late in the series it is that BTVS starts
> laying down the rules and explanations about how the Slayer line
> works. Before that, I really didn't think much about the ancient
> forces behind Buffy ending up as One Girl In All The World, because it
> didn't seem very important. Even the capitalizable term "Potential"
> hadn't firmly taken root yet at this point in the series.

Which is actually kind of strange; seeing that both Kendra and Faith had
to have been in the Watchers Council's hands before being called (Kendra
even says that she was trained from childhood, and Faith shows up only
five months after Kendra's death, trained, her Watcher dead, and fallen
afoul of a big honkin' bad-*** vampire,) the idea of the Potentials must
have been percolating around in Joss's noggin for some time. And yet,
it was never actually mentioned. Hm. Maybe it really *wasn't*
important, until it was.


> It's also
> weird remembering when Kennedy of the winged house didn't stand out so
> much, or annoy me at all. Even the overdone flirting doesn't really
> bother me pre-TKIM.
>
>
> Thoughts?

Yeah, don't be dissin' Kennedy, now, hear?

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbaa1b27-da55-4705-8b17-6e6eb1291fb8@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...


> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 9: "Never Leave Me"

> This is better.

Yes it is. As an episode in and of itself it's definitely the easiest and
most satisfying one of this sequence to watch. Funny. Meaningful dialogue.
Really strong staging. Indeed, I had so much fun watching it this time that
I'm raising the rating to Good, even though it still bothers me how much it
repeats the ideas from the prior episode.


> Even if, as was argued in some parts last time, the
> Spike portions cover a lot of the same ground as "Sleeper," they cover
> it in a much more fulfilling way.

It's presentation is more fulfilling. The subtle distinctions in abstract
content I'm not so sure. Here Spike starts hoping and believing in himself
because Buffy believes in him. That's pretty good. It harkens back to how
Spike was moved by Buffy's respect late in S5, which serves as excellent
foundation for making it believable now. And getting Spike to believe in
himself (however tentatively at this point) speaks to the empowerment theme
of the season. All good.

Sleeper, on the other hand, speaks more to Buffy miraculously seeing the
possibilities within Spike and making the commitment to helping him - a
defining commitment for her this season. Spike's side of his redemption arc
is certainly wonderful, but his path is also the example for Buffy's great
task. Before the Potentials are empowered, Spike grows into his own
potential - with Buffy showing him the way. She's been his role model for a
long time now. Now the applied meaning of that finally comes clear.as Spike
learns to be the best he can be. Buffy's job is to achieve the same with
everybody else.

Sleeper also has the virtue of better showing Spike's existing inner
strength as he pretty much on his own puts a crack in The First's hold on
him.


> I feel like I had a healthy amount
> of skepticism about the way the relationship between Buffy and Spike
> would develop during Season Seven, but scenes like the second basement
> argument got me on the show's page. It's layered, intense, and
> heartfelt, not to mention one of our only looks at how Spike thinks
> about the stuff he tries to avoid thinking about.

When Spike turns on his insight he's at his best. One of the neat things
about their conversation(s) is the flip side of what I spoke of above.
Spike challenges Buffy with his thoughts - and draws some of the best out of
Buffy in so doing. These are really good scenes for displaying some of what
connects the two beyond sex and love.


> In the meantime,
> dialogue crackles, and the fight scene is pretty creative with its use
> of human props.

Buffy wants to use Spike as a weapon but can't yet. So, in the meantime,
she literally uses Andrew as a weapon instead. Somewhere around now in your
first reviews you asked if Andrew was being used as a parody of Spike's
redemption arc. The question really struck me as a -duh- moment. I knew
his arc was a parallel to Spike's arc. And I knew he was played for laughs.
But somehow I hadn't put the two together to see the parody. Thanks. Now I
get an extra laugh out of Buffy tossing Andrew around.


> Rating: Good

Good.


> Season Seven, Episode 10: "Bring On The Night"

> I think we all felt there was something a little awry here.

It's a periodically awkward episode in just about all respects. Sometimes a
little dull too - in spite of some individual high points.

Back in Selfless I spoke of how the big argument was filled with subtext
about season themes, yet was still dead on for the moment at hand - a really
nice melding of multiple objectives. I think what's going on this episode
is that Mutant Enemy is so determined to serve season themes that it
sacrifices some of the story flow and dialogue of the moment. Hurts the
episode. But the subtext is kind of interesting. Or at least that's what
lets me watch the episode without groaning too much.


> Everyone's taking the First Evil, a rather silly video game style one-
> off from S3 like a serious villain.

One of the high points of this episode is Anya's line, "I'm so rotten, they
don't even have a word for it. I'm bad. Baddy bad bad bad. Does it make you
horny?" Thank heavens somebody notices the hyperbole. That reminds me of
Amends when Buffy herself gets tired of the more evil than evil act.

Jenny/The First: You have no idea what you're dealing with.
Buffy: (dripping with sarcasm) Lemme guess. Is it... evil?

I do not get why, at this point, The First is treated like such a big deal.
It's not like Buffy has never had to deal with it before. She has a
template for what to do. Kill and/or chase off the Bringers (or whatever
other creature it sends), but mainly work to restore the sense of self worth
and confidence of whoever it attacks with its ghosts.


> Giles returns from his
> cliffhanger to immediately be marginalized while the show continues to
> go about tearing down his integrity whilst setting up the most drawn
> out joke ever.

I've spoken before about problems with how they handle the cliffhanger of
impending death for Giles and the suggestion that Giles might be evil. The
messing with his character part gets worse later, but it gets started now.

I think the strain on his character is because M.E. has chosen to make him
one of the more allegorical characters of the season. In story he becomes
the literal embodiment of the Watcher's Council - the rest is effectively
destroyed and he chooses to carry their banner forward. Metaphorically,
though, he is the patriarchy whose bonds Buffy must break.

I believe that's what they're seeking to establish with Giles this episode.
Everybody has been pushing responsibility onto Buffy's shoulders this
season. But nobody puts it quite so starkly as Giles.

Giles: I'm afraid it falls to you, Buffy. Sorry. I mean, we'll do what we
can, but you're the only one who has the strength to protect these girls—and
the world—against what's coming.

Aside from the absolute character of his charge to Buffy, there's also the
authority behind it. He's the Watcher. Now he's effectively the Watcher's
Council. He more than anyone seeks to define her role, her duties in
classic Slayer terms. She's the Chosen One. She alone will stand against
the forces of darkness.

After years of showing Giles to be a different kind of Watcher in much the
same sense that Buffy was a different kind of Slayer, they chose to revert
to the original contention between Buffy and Giles - and make the new Giles
uncompromising to boot. Eventually they'll allow Giles to see the light,
though I don't find it terribly convincing. And, in the meantime, Giles
seems to forget everything he's learned about Buffy - including how good her
instincts so often are.

(Actually, this change can be seen at the end of S5, but not as pervasively
or lasting as now.)

Obviously I don't much like it. But I can see what they're going for. He's
the biggest promoter of the Slayer trap. The First doesn't haunt him.

Incidentally, one of the questions people often have is why The First goes
after the Potentials, but not the Slayer. Giles offers a reason this
episode - expanded upon by Buffy. But I wonder if the reason is that
"potential" is the thing that The First most likes to step on. Meanwhile,
Buffy is already effectively enslaved. In that sense he already has her
where he wants her.


> The house is filling with characters who seem designed
> to make us tune them out, and it won't stop. Random characters like
> Joyce make cameos for no apparent reason, or as it turns out in this
> example, none that ever becomes apparent.

Well she does seem to be trying to get Buffy to give up, what with her talk
about evil being everywhere. Still, Joyce's appearances may be the most
obscure ghostly sightings of the season.


> And
> for big moments, can't go without mentioning "... and it'll choke on
> me."

Oh, yeah. That is so cool. Of course that starts the speechifying to
follow - and we know how well that works out.

That speech also continues with lines like, "'Cause we just became an army.
We just declared war. From now on, we won't just face our worst fears, we
will seek them out." Not as dramatic of course, but that's a statement of
empowerment. The whole speech is aimed at everybody reaching inside to make
themselves greater. And it also strongly suggests an early recognition by
Buffy that she can't do it by herself. The people listening might have been
more carried away with the thought of what Buffy would do herself - Buffy
will continue to struggle to get the empowering message across. But it's
still showing an early intent that's quite a bit at odds with the notion of
it all being up to her that others demand of her and eventually accuse her
of.

It's also a sneak peek at the way it will ultimately work.

There are lots of other moments this episode that speak to this theme - it
positively reeks of it. I want to mention a couple of them.

Kennedy: That's it? That's the plan? I don't see how one person, even a
slayer, could protect us.

Out of the mouths of babes. I think that pretty much states the issue that
the season will turn on. Let me use this opportunity to make what may be my
only defense of Kennedy this season. Her romance with Willow is the obvious
big deal with her. But as a Potential, her function is to be the one most
ready and eager for personal empowerment. Which leads into the other moment
I want to mention, as she illustrates how it's not enough to want it.

Kennedy: Hey, are we getting weapons? Trained fighters? Patton is coming?
I've heard worse ideas.
Annabelle: We'll be armed when the slayer feels we're ready.
Molly: I feel ready.
Annabelle: You're frightened. You must learn to control your fear.
Kennedy: Hey, you know what would help with that? Weapons.

I believe that's metaphorical. Yes, there's an immediate in story need to
deal with weapons. But the awkward fumbling around over whether to actually
arm them (which I don't think plays very well in story) speaks to a greater
meaning. They need access to the tools of empowerment - not just the
desire. And those tools - just like the weapons - are only reluctantly
meted out to them as little as possible by the powers that control them,
rather than be theirs by right.

Highlighting this is a useful function for Kennedy. She may be annoying as
hell, but at least part of that has a righteous basis as she acts as
agitator and leader for the empowerment cause. One of the curious things
about her is that Buffy doesn't really come down on her, even as she speaks
in defiance of Buffy. Maybe Buffy sees a little of herself in Kennedy - I'm
not sure. I think it's more that Kennedy actually takes to heart what Buffy
tries to instill in the Potentials, and Buffy sees that. Her impetuous
inexperience is a lot easier to forgive than betrayal by Giles or
undermining by Xander.


> At times like that, I want to like BOTN better than I do,

I'm quite fond of Spike's declaration that he believes in himself because
Buffy believes in him. While this kind of just further affirms the endings
of the last two episodes, there's a sense of triumph in it this time that's
the strongest hint yet of how The First will fail. I think it's also when I
started to realize that they were going to make a real hero out of him.

Be that as it may, I'm right there with you wanting to like the episode more
than I do. It's just not done very well - unworthy of its highpoints or the
theme exploration I spoke of above. From a viewing perspective, one of the
things that sticks with me is the annoyance of a barely audible Anya
mumbling in the kitchen while the Potentials had breakfast. It sounded like
audio tape leakage rather than part of the scene.


> Rating: Decent

Agreed


> Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"


> Has there ever been more of an Act Four episode?

I don't understand the question.


> Building to the
> arena sequence is the point of everything that's done. (Well, there's
> also the visit to the Eye, which is both enjoyable and important. But
> I'm reluctant to mention it for fear that it will re-start the tedious
> disagreements about which Buffy resurrection was the problem, despite
> the fact that it's blindingly obvious to me.)

Buffy's death in The Wish. Anya's failed attempt to get her power center
back (leading to Vamp Willow instead) has left a permanent temporal rift
which is drawing down Buffy's power to keep a comatose Wish-Buffy alive.


> Really, this one comes
> down to Buffy tearing a monster's head off and saving the he-damsel in
> distress. If that sort of thing didn't make for good TV, we wouldn't
> be watching _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_. Buffy overcomes a difficult
> foe through sheer stubborn persistence, and her ability to find new
> things to try anywhere until something works. She also tries to
> reduce everything into a show in which she solves everything, despite
> her lack of an actual plan, with a one-on-one pummeling while everyone
> else shuts the hell up and watches. I'd say the writers are making a
> few points at once here. I thought that the way Buffy's being set up
> for a bit of a fall was quite clear and noticeable as a first-time
> viewer too, but that time I was a little more caught up in the fact
> that it's also a stirring feel-good moment, more so than her speech at
> the end of the previous show. (Not that I think they're redundant.
> You kinda need both.)
> Rating: Good

I don't have much to say about the episode. It's OK. My main problem with
it is that, just as Buffy is so worn down, I'm really weary by this point in
the 4 episode sequence. The big fight's pretty good, but of course we've
been fighting this creep seemingly forever by this point. I'm as much
relieved as thrilled at its ending. There's just enough here to push it to
a Good rating. Decent for me.


> Additional comments on S7D3: I'm still enjoying _Buffy_, but at this
> point (the four-episode run from "Sleeper" to "Showtime" - although
> they're separated by a winter hiatus, they go together), I don't know
> how much I'm feeling it, NLM excepted. S7 is much the same way, where
> the individual episodes get rated well but I don't feel so good about
> it. In my opinion, ATS S4, despite also being quite messy, has a
> "more than the sum of its parts" momentum that BTVS S7 doesn't manage
> so often. OBS called these four episodes of S7 the least rewarding
> part of the series last time through. I wonder if the fact that the
> show is spending way more time than it used to on sorting out its
> mythology and elaborate, sprawling storylines has finally caught up
> with it. Or, as best summarized by Ian G., "this is actually why I
> don't think the group of 4 episodes ending in this one are
> particularly good, they're too plot driven and not particularly
> resonant emotionally or thematically."

I think there's actually a lot of theme in this group, plus a major push in
Spike's story. But the theme stuff is hard to get at this point. And theme
and Spike both are terribly repetitious. 4 episodes for 2 episodes of
ideas. There's a fair amount of emotional potential - and somewhat realized
in the first two especially - but it tends to be overwhelmed by the sense of
fatigue that's so played up in the last two episodes. There's a fairly
large barrage of good lines in this group, but when it's over, my favorite
image is Buffy impassively feeding Spike as he's tied up. That's a good
image, but gee, you'd think there'd be more striking visuals in these
stories.


> It's also
> weird remembering when Kennedy of the winged house didn't stand out so
> much, or annoy me at all. Even the overdone flirting doesn't really
> bother me pre-TKIM.

Not much of an actor though.


OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:13umcqi3g5i9rf3@news.supernews.com:

>> Season Seven, Episode 10: "Bring On The Night"
>

> After years of showing Giles to be a different kind of Watcher
> in much the same sense that Buffy was a different kind of
> Slayer, they chose to revert to the original contention between
> Buffy and Giles - and make the new Giles uncompromising to boot.
> Eventually they'll allow Giles to see the light, though I don't
> find it terribly convincing. And, in the meantime, Giles seems
> to forget everything he's learned about Buffy - including how
> good her instincts so often are.

The thing is, Giles is in a situation almost entirely outside of his
(and Buffy's) experience. And he naturally falls back on his
training. EXCEPT when it comes to the Watcher/Slayer relationship.
A traditional Watcher would have tried to take charge of the
situation, which Giles conspicuously does not do. Instead he
stresses (even overstresses) that Buffy is in charge, even as he
turns more traditional in his other attitudes.

Or in other words, Giles IS still a different kind of Watcher, just
not in exactly the same way as he used to be. And both the
unfamiliarity of the situation, and the change in Giles' status play
an important role in this.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

On Mar 27, 12:40 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:fbaa1b27-da55-4705-8b17-6e6eb1291fb8@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

> When Spike turns on his insight he's at his best. One of the neat things
> about their conversation(s) is the flip side of what I spoke of above.
> Spike challenges Buffy with his thoughts - and draws some of the best out of
> Buffy in so doing. These are really good scenes for displaying some of what
> connects the two beyond sex and love.

At times, and by the end of the year frequently, Buffy will be as
mopey as ever. But this scene gives a tangible way in which S7 Buffy
has learned and healed since S6.


> Buffy wants to use Spike as a weapon but can't yet. So, in the meantime,
> she literally uses Andrew as a weapon instead.

Heehee. Thanks for expanding on the idea.

> Somewhere around now in your
> first reviews you asked if Andrew was being used as a parody of Spike's
> redemption arc. The question really struck me as a -duh- moment. I knew
> his arc was a parallel to Spike's arc. And I knew he was played for laughs.
> But somehow I hadn't put the two together to see the parody. Thanks. NowI
> get an extra laugh out of Buffy tossing Andrew around.

> > Everyone's taking the First Evil, a rather silly video game style one-
> > off from S3 like a serious villain.
>
> One of the high points of this episode is Anya's line, "I'm so rotten, they
> don't even have a word for it. I'm bad. Baddy bad bad bad. Does it make you
> horny?" Thank heavens somebody notices the hyperbole. That reminds me of
> Amends when Buffy herself gets tired of the more evil than evil act.
>
> Jenny/The First: You have no idea what you're dealing with.
> Buffy: (dripping with sarcasm) Lemme guess. Is it... evil?

"Alright, I get it. You're evil. Do we have to chat about it all
day?"

> > Giles returns from his
> > cliffhanger to immediately be marginalized while the show continues to
> > go about tearing down his integrity whilst setting up the most drawn
> > out joke ever.
>
> I've spoken before about problems with how they handle the cliffhanger of
> impending death for Giles and the suggestion that Giles might be evil. The
> messing with his character part gets worse later, but it gets started now.
>
> I think the strain on his character is because M.E. has chosen to make him
> one of the more allegorical characters of the season. In story he becomes
> the literal embodiment of the Watcher's Council - the rest is effectively
> destroyed and he chooses to carry their banner forward. Metaphorically,
> though, he is the patriarchy whose bonds Buffy must break.
[snip]
> After years of showing Giles to be a different kind of Watcher in much the
> same sense that Buffy was a different kind of Slayer, they chose to revert
> to the original contention between Buffy and Giles - and make the new Giles
> uncompromising to boot. Eventually they'll allow Giles to see the light,
> though I don't find it terribly convincing. And, in the meantime, Giles
> seems to forget everything he's learned about Buffy - including how good her
> instincts so often are.

I was writing a complaint about Giles as I was working ahead with the
thread for "First Date" & co. It would have included the phrase
"another failed emissary of the status quo, to be ridiculed before
being discarded." Otherwise, I came to almost exactly the same
conclusions and complaints that you did, albeit sacrificing nuance for
terseness. So, yeah, seconded on all counts.

> > Random characters like
> > Joyce make cameos for no apparent reason, or as it turns out in this
> > example, none that ever becomes apparent.
>
> Well she does seem to be trying to get Buffy to give up, what with her talk
> about evil being everywhere. Still, Joyce's appearances may be the most
> obscure ghostly sightings of the season.

Doesn't she tell Buffy to go to sleep at one point and wake up at
another? Given how the show only barely bothered to (sorta) follow up
on Joyce's words in CWDP, I'm sure everyone will forgive me if I'm
unimpressed with the vagueness for its own sake.

> Kennedy: That's it? That's the plan? I don't see how one person, even a
> slayer, could protect us.
>
> Out of the mouths of babes. I think that pretty much states the issue that
> the season will turn on. Let me use this opportunity to make what may be my
> only defense of Kennedy this season. Her romance with Willow is the obvious
> big deal with her. But as a Potential, her function is to be the one most
> ready and eager for personal empowerment.
[snip]
> Highlighting this is a useful function for Kennedy. She may be annoying as
> hell, but at least part of that has a righteous basis as she acts as
> agitator and leader for the empowerment cause. One of the curious things
> about her is that Buffy doesn't really come down on her, even as she speaks
> in defiance of Buffy. Maybe Buffy sees a little of herself in Kennedy - I'm
> not sure. I think it's more that Kennedy actually takes to heart what Buffy
> tries to instill in the Potentials, and Buffy sees that. Her impetuous
> inexperience is a lot easier to forgive than betrayal by Giles or
> undermining by Xander.

I'll give you Giles, but Xander's generally a voice of reason, if not
assertiveness, during S7. Nothing else to add, except that I'm
curious what I'd think of Kennedy, Ringleader Of The Potentials if
that were her primary function to the story and Willow hooked up with
someone else. Then, at least, her being annoying would be part of the
point.

> > Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
> > Has there ever been more of an Act Four episode?
>
> I don't understand the question.

Just reflecting the fact that the whole thing is built around the
fourth act (Thunderdome). Nearly everything else is specifically
designed to set it up, and the episode succeeds or fails along with
its last ten minutes.

> > (Well, there's
> > also the visit to the Eye, which is both enjoyable and important. But
> > I'm reluctant to mention it for fear that it will re-start the tedious
> > disagreements about which Buffy resurrection was the problem, despite
> > the fact that it's blindingly obvious to me.)
>
> Buffy's death in The Wish. Anya's failed attempt to get her power center
> back (leading to Vamp Willow instead) has left a permanent temporal rift
> which is drawing down Buffy's power to keep a comatose Wish-Buffy alive.

Of course. How could I have been so blind?

> > It's also
> > weird remembering when Kennedy of the winged house didn't stand out so
> > much, or annoy me at all. Even the overdone flirting doesn't really
> > bother me pre-TKIM.
>
> Not much of an actor though.

Well, that's never kept certain other actors who shall remain nameless
become widely beloved by this fanbase. As much as I dislike her
character, it's kinda nice to know that being on the show helped Limón
so much with her life (coming to terms with her sexual oreintation and
so on).

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa8b334a-57c9-43e2-aeb3-07cbc0558d92@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 27, 12:40 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> messagenews:fbaa1b27-da55-4705-8b17-6e6eb1291fb8@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

>> > Random characters like
>> > Joyce make cameos for no apparent reason, or as it turns out in this
>> > example, none that ever becomes apparent.
>>
>> Well she does seem to be trying to get Buffy to give up, what with her
>> talk
>> about evil being everywhere. Still, Joyce's appearances may be the most
>> obscure ghostly sightings of the season.
>
> Doesn't she tell Buffy to go to sleep at one point and wake up at
> another?

Yes. Within a few seconds of each other.


> Given how the show only barely bothered to (sorta) follow up
> on Joyce's words in CWDP, I'm sure everyone will forgive me if I'm
> unimpressed with the vagueness for its own sake.

Domine. Domine. Your'e forgiven.


>> Kennedy: That's it? That's the plan? I don't see how one person, even a
>> slayer, could protect us.
>>
>> Out of the mouths of babes. I think that pretty much states the issue
>> that
>> the season will turn on. Let me use this opportunity to make what may be
>> my
>> only defense of Kennedy this season. Her romance with Willow is the
>> obvious
>> big deal with her. But as a Potential, her function is to be the one
>> most
>> ready and eager for personal empowerment.
> [snip]
>> Highlighting this is a useful function for Kennedy. She may be annoying
>> as
>> hell, but at least part of that has a righteous basis as she acts as
>> agitator and leader for the empowerment cause. One of the curious things
>> about her is that Buffy doesn't really come down on her, even as she
>> speaks
>> in defiance of Buffy. Maybe Buffy sees a little of herself in Kennedy -
>> I'm
>> not sure. I think it's more that Kennedy actually takes to heart what
>> Buffy
>> tries to instill in the Potentials, and Buffy sees that. Her impetuous
>> inexperience is a lot easier to forgive than betrayal by Giles or
>> undermining by Xander.
>
> I'll give you Giles, but Xander's generally a voice of reason, if not
> assertiveness, during S7.

Most of the time, yeah. I was thinking of the Get It Done argument when
Buffy pretty much took Kennedy's sass in stride - even trying to make a
point out of it - but couldn't get past Xander's Xander's follow-up retorts.
It pretty much undermined the point she was trying to make. Though she went
and found another way to get the message across.


> Nothing else to add, except that I'm
> curious what I'd think of Kennedy, Ringleader Of The Potentials if
> that were her primary function to the story and Willow hooked up with
> someone else. Then, at least, her being annoying would be part of the
> point.

I would have liked that just to bring more body to the Potential's story.


>> > Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
>> > Has there ever been more of an Act Four episode?
>>
>> I don't understand the question.
>
> Just reflecting the fact that the whole thing is built around the
> fourth act (Thunderdome). Nearly everything else is specifically
> designed to set it up, and the episode succeeds or fails along with
> its last ten minutes.

Maybe that explains why I'm so indifferent to most of the episode.


>> > It's also
>> > weird remembering when Kennedy of the winged house didn't stand out so
>> > much, or annoy me at all. Even the overdone flirting doesn't really
>> > bother me pre-TKIM.
>>
>> Not much of an actor though.
>
> Well, that's never kept certain other actors who shall remain nameless
> become widely beloved by this fanbase.

Yeah, but they learned how to be pretty good hams.

OBS

On Mar 28, 10:54 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:fa8b334a-57c9-43e2-aeb3-07cbc0558d92@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 27, 12:40 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> Let me use this opportunity to make what may be
> >> my
> >> only defense of Kennedy this season. Her romance with Willow is the
> >> obvious
> >> big deal with her. But as a Potential, her function is to be the one
> >> most
> >> ready and eager for personal empowerment.
> > [snip]
> >> Highlighting this is a useful function for Kennedy. She may be annoying
> >> as
> >> hell, but at least part of that has a righteous basis as she acts as
> >> agitator and leader for the empowerment cause. One of the curious things
> >> about her is that Buffy doesn't really come down on her, even as she
> >> speaks
> >> in defiance of Buffy. Maybe Buffy sees a little of herself in Kennedy -
> >> I'm
> >> not sure. I think it's more that Kennedy actually takes to heart what
> >> Buffy
> >> tries to instill in the Potentials, and Buffy sees that. Her impetuous
> >> inexperience is a lot easier to forgive than betrayal by Giles or
> >> undermining by Xander.
>
> > I'll give you Giles, but Xander's generally a voice of reason, if not
> > assertiveness, during S7.
>
> Most of the time, yeah. I was thinking of the Get It Done argument when
> Buffy pretty much took Kennedy's sass in stride - even trying to make a
> point out of it - but couldn't get past Xander's. Xander's follow-up retorts.
> It pretty much undermined the point she was trying to make. Though she went
> and found another way to get the message across.

I had a different take on that. Especially earlier in the scene,
Xander's speaking up on behalf of everyone who's getting insulted
while trying to reasonably respond to what's being said. Everyone
else is angry, but Xander doesn't raise his voice while telling Buffy
what he thinks she needs to hear. "But let's not try to forget, we're
also your friends." The net effect may be to undermine Buffy's point,
but I don't think it's any harder to forgive than Kennedy's
confrontational-ness (easier for me, if only because I like him
better).

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:80a62083-4116-489e-b083-058865f32990@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 28, 10:54 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:fa8b334a-57c9-43e2-aeb3-07cbc0558d92@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Mar 27, 12:40 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> >> Let me use this opportunity to make what may be
>> >> my
>> >> only defense of Kennedy this season. Her romance with Willow is the
>> >> obvious
>> >> big deal with her. But as a Potential, her function is to be the one
>> >> most
>> >> ready and eager for personal empowerment.
>> > [snip]
>> >> Highlighting this is a useful function for Kennedy. She may be
>> >> annoying
>> >> as
>> >> hell, but at least part of that has a righteous basis as she acts as
>> >> agitator and leader for the empowerment cause. One of the curious
>> >> things
>> >> about her is that Buffy doesn't really come down on her, even as she
>> >> speaks
>> >> in defiance of Buffy. Maybe Buffy sees a little of herself in
>> >> Kennedy -
>> >> I'm
>> >> not sure. I think it's more that Kennedy actually takes to heart what
>> >> Buffy
>> >> tries to instill in the Potentials, and Buffy sees that. Her
>> >> impetuous
>> >> inexperience is a lot easier to forgive than betrayal by Giles or
>> >> undermining by Xander.
>>
>> > I'll give you Giles, but Xander's generally a voice of reason, if not
>> > assertiveness, during S7.
>>
>> Most of the time, yeah. I was thinking of the Get It Done argument when
>> Buffy pretty much took Kennedy's sass in stride - even trying to make a
>> point out of it - but couldn't get past Xander's. Xander's follow-up
>> retorts.
>> It pretty much undermined the point she was trying to make. Though she
>> went
>> and found another way to get the message across.
>
> I had a different take on that. Especially earlier in the scene,
> Xander's speaking up on behalf of everyone who's getting insulted
> while trying to reasonably respond to what's being said. Everyone
> else is angry, but Xander doesn't raise his voice while telling Buffy
> what he thinks she needs to hear. "But let's not try to forget, we're
> also your friends." The net effect may be to undermine Buffy's point,
> but I don't think it's any harder to forgive than Kennedy's
> confrontational-ness (easier for me, if only because I like him
> better).

So he didn't yell while he pulled the rug out from under her. He still
undermined her. Not only did it take her off point, it made her look bad in
the process. Kennedy didn't achieve either. Kennedy also doesn't know
better - which Buffy stated. Xander should - which was the implication of
Buffy's statement. Another way in which Xander served to undermine her.
Consciously so in that sense. Even though he probably believed he had good
reason to.

I may come back to this when we get to the episode. I think it's an
interesting argument - one of the better ones this season. Buffy's
leadership isn't the only issue. Indeed, it could be argued that the
greater issue is the role of the followers - the ones in need of
empowerment. Xander is being mighty obtuse about Buffy's message that she
*can't* be there for them all of the time - that everybody has to take on
their own responsibility to stay alive. He essentially rejects the charge,
pushes it back upon Buffy, and then mocks her authority. Not one of his
finer moments IMO.

Buffy stumbles too of course, but I was speaking to the impressions made
upon her. Kennedy didn't throw her - it was almost to be expected.
Xander's response actually hurt. Though in this case it threw her into a
pissed off mode where her "get it done" attitude succeeded in spurring
action and making the point anyway.

OBS

On Apr 1, 4:06 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:80a62083-4116-489e-b083-058865f32990@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 10:54 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:fa8b334a-57c9-43e2-aeb3-07cbc0558d92@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Mar 27, 12:40 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> >> Let me use this opportunity to make what may be
> >> >> my
> >> >> only defense of Kennedy this season. Her romance with Willow is the
> >> >> obvious
> >> >> big deal with her. But as a Potential, her function is to be the one
> >> >> most
> >> >> ready and eager for personal empowerment.
> >> > [snip]
> >> >> Highlighting this is a useful function for Kennedy. She may be
> >> >> annoying
> >> >> as
> >> >> hell, but at least part of that has a righteous basis as she acts as
> >> >> agitator and leader for the empowerment cause. One of the curious
> >> >> things
> >> >> about her is that Buffy doesn't really come down on her, even as she
> >> >> speaks
> >> >> in defiance of Buffy. Maybe Buffy sees a little of herself in
> >> >> Kennedy -
> >> >> I'm
> >> >> not sure. I think it's more that Kennedy actually takes to heart what
> >> >> Buffy
> >> >> tries to instill in the Potentials, and Buffy sees that. Her
> >> >> impetuous
> >> >> inexperience is a lot easier to forgive than betrayal by Giles or
> >> >> undermining by Xander.
>
> >> > I'll give you Giles, but Xander's generally a voice of reason, if not
> >> > assertiveness, during S7.
>
> >> Most of the time, yeah. I was thinking of the Get It Done argument when
> >> Buffy pretty much took Kennedy's sass in stride - even trying to make a
> >> point out of it - but couldn't get past Xander's. Xander's follow-up
> >> retorts.
> >> It pretty much undermined the point she was trying to make. Though she
> >> went
> >> and found another way to get the message across.
>
> > I had a different take on that. Especially earlier in the scene,
> > Xander's speaking up on behalf of everyone who's getting insulted
> > while trying to reasonably respond to what's being said. Everyone
> > else is angry, but Xander doesn't raise his voice while telling Buffy
> > what he thinks she needs to hear. "But let's not try to forget, we're
> > also your friends." The net effect may be to undermine Buffy's point,
> > but I don't think it's any harder to forgive than Kennedy's
> > confrontational-ness (easier for me, if only because I like him
> > better).
>
> So he didn't yell while he pulled the rug out from under her. He still
> undermined her. Not only did it take her off point, it made her look bad in
> the process. Kennedy didn't achieve either. Kennedy also doesn't know
> better - which Buffy stated. Xander should - which was the implication of
> Buffy's statement. Another way in which Xander served to undermine her.
> Consciously so in that sense. Even though he probably believed he had good
> reason to.

He certainly thinks he had good reason to. Maybe she doesn't have a
direct response to everything he says because it's something she needs
to hear.

> I may come back to this when we get to the episode.

Nah, there's no rule saying this post-series stuff shouldn't be an
open discussion. It's a chance to follow tangents wherever in the
show they may lead.

>I think it's an
> interesting argument - one of the better ones this season. Buffy's
> leadership isn't the only issue. Indeed, it could be argued that the
> greater issue is the role of the followers - the ones in need of
> empowerment. Xander is being mighty obtuse about Buffy's message that she
> *can't* be there for them all of the time - that everybody has to take on
> their own responsibility to stay alive. He essentially rejects the charge,
> pushes it back upon Buffy, and then mocks her authority. Not one of his
> finer moments IMO.

It's no one's finest moment. Buffy's frustrated after having failed
Chloe no more or less than anyone else (and you know she'll blame
herself for it). She's been stewing about it alone, digging the
grave. Seeing everyone together, she lashes out, insulting people's
recently dead friend and, subsequently, everyone in the room. They
react. "Get It Done" is an interesting episode, more so than I
initially gave it credit for, but one thing I have trouble getting
past is that it's perhaps the one time in the series in which I find
Buffy genuinely unpleasant and hard to like. Now, whether or not
everyone ultimately benefits from this bit of tough love, whether
Buffy's giving them what they need from her... well, it's kinda a
separate albeit related topic, and maybe we will defer that after all
for when we discuss the episode.

I'll just add that, as also shown during the "Dirty Girls"/"Empty
Places" period, for someone who preaches empowerment, Buffy doesn't
really seem into actually letting it happen.

XANDER: You're our leader, Buffy, as in "follow the."
BUFFY: Well, from now on, I'm your leader as in "do what I say."

As Our Dear Keptain Reey-nooolds might say, I'm glad we've made that
distinction.

> Buffy stumbles too of course, but I was speaking to the impressions made
> upon her. Kennedy didn't throw her - it was almost to be expected.
> Xander's response actually hurt. Though in this case it threw her into a
> pissed off mode where her "get it done" attitude succeeded in spurring
> action and making the point anyway.

It doesn't stop her from making the point she was trying to make. If
anything, she just gets even pissier and more personal about it, but
the scene remains dominated by her speech. Willow will also challenge
what Buffy's saying, despite having herself just suggested that
Kennedy was out of line. It's notable that Buffy continues to
implicitly accept them as part of the core group who're by her side
when they bust out the emergency kit, as if their input is expected.
(Kennedy kinda gets inducted too, for that matter.)

In conclusion, I don't have a hard time forgiving Xander.

-AOQ