A reminder: If these threads were a sign of being evil, where would
they be?


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 12: "Potential"
Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
Director: James A. Contner

I'd remembered Disc 4 as, even more so than the previous one, as a
dark period in BTVS's lifetime. This was the first pleasant surprise,
an episode I'd forgotten how much I liked and how well it holds
together. Well, except for going overboard with Dawn being a bit
stupid - c'mon show, just have her bring a stake to the party and I'll
shut up about it. But there are some bite-sized scenes letting
Potentials (and Clem!) show off their semblance of personalities,
while we follow someone we do care about getting that responsibility
apparently thrown onto her. And even the Dawn haters should have
difficulty with their not caring about her, in the episode's vivid
portrayal of how capable she can be while still being permanently,
intractably out of her league in this world. (This is probably the
example for me in which Dawn best fills the "vulnerable but not
helpless mortal" niche that made S1-2 Willow such a big contributor to
the show.) The extended vampire chase through the school holds up
very well on re-watching - so fast paced. Of course, it's all leading
up to Xander doing that blah blah blah thing he does so well, in a way
that puts the episode in its context while helping summarize the pure-
human characters' part in the larger story. Marvelous scene to
satisfyingly close a bit of an underrated gem.
Rating: Good


Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: David Solomon

I don't think of myself (or any of the regulars on a.t.b-v-s, for that
matter) as being hotheaded about it like some in the lunatic fringe of
fandumb, but I don't particularly like the character of Kennedy. At
all. I feel like the annoyance factor is magnified when one has to
view her as suddenly the most important person in Willow's life,
despite the fact that they have little in common and are handed
largely excruciating dialogue. [From Rincewind: "So now it appears
that Willow is ready to date anyone without a ***** who will hit on
her."] The fact that Hannigan and Limon have no chemistry at all
helps seal the deal. Mangling Willow's new romance isn't enough,
though - this episode is much more ambitious in its failure. I
continue to like the play of the Willow-as-Warren scene in the living
room with the chaos and the bad touching and such, but even there,
it's dragged down a little by the weakness of the Hannigan/Busch
mixing. As I originally commented, they don't seem like they're even
reading for the same scene, let alone the same character, and this
problem becomes more and more obvious throughout the hour. This is
part of a misconceived faux-clever attempt to trick us into thinking
we're getting into a big cathartic redemption episode, when the twist
at the end is that healing and moving on after Tara are what triggered
and will solve this crisis. Scythe Matters summed it up most
accurately with his assessment of how the show's bait-and-switch
backfires. To paraphrase, introducing Warren means introducing all
the associations that come with him, which the show doesn't actually
address (since that's not what TKIM is about), leaving them hovering
unsatisfyingly and drowning out anything TKIM might have to say about
Willow/Tara/Kennedy.

Meanwhile, the plot is driven largely by characters improbably
happening to wander into the right places at the right time. Oh yeah,
Amy's a pure black-hat villain now, and I enjoy her dialogue and
Allen's relishing of it as much as I bemoan her lack of an arc or any
real coherency to her portrayal. Oh, and this is the one where Spike
gets his chip out, which for some reason requires a bunch of scenes
that don't say much of anything and a "climactic" fight scene that's
drowned in near-total darkness. (David says it's one of his favorite
things he shot in the commentary, making me wonder if everyone's head
was just on wrong that week.) It's kinda sweet that Riley's learned a
few things from his time with Buffy. And we finally tell that Giles
joke, which is okay, although now I can be annoyed since I know that
the original final punchline to the scene was axed. In summary, TKIM
is loaded with ideas that have potential, and there are enough good
lines and good scenes scattered throughout that on the one hand I do
want to properly credit the show for it. But at the same time, it
also deserves special consideration for failing so miserably at
everything it attempts.
Rating: Bad (down from Weak)


Season Seven, Episode 14: "First Date"
Writer: Jane Espenson
Director: David Grossman

The series has decided to give Giles what I find to be a thoroughly
unsatisfying story this season (see OBS's response to the S7D3 post
for more). In this particular episode, it's not pleasant viewing for
someone who's always liked the character (who's never been a saint or
anything to begin with) to see him as alternately a bumbling idiot and
a bumbling guy lashing out in frustration. (Part of the dubious point
of "First Date" is to move him into place for LMPTM.) What the
episode lacks in Rupertosity it makes up for in character work for
Robin Wood and Andrew. The former finally gets to do something other
than act mysterious, emerging as an interesting guy who's managed to
mostly replace bloodlust with matter-of-fact training and cover the
rest up with charm, but still has that streak in him. The episode's
few aspirations towards drama tend to target him, especially in that
killer closing moment. Meanwhile the show lets us know that it, and
Andrew, do actually intend to pursue his redemption story. Here's the
mix of comedy and actual embryonic admirable qualities that
characterizes the better Andrew performances, and here are I believe
the first signs of self-awareness about Jonathan's death. Cameoing
celebrity Ashanti really can't act, but at least she looks real good
in that dress. FD remains a pleasant episode when Giles isn't on
screen, I'm entertained by it, and on re-watching I was tempted to
bump it up a rating. I can't quite go all the way there, and I
actually just now watched it once again to be sure that I couldn't.

FD has some good examples of both subtly getting things right and
wrong. For right, see Buffy's flattered look in response to Wood's
"you're the Slayer," or even better, the hilarious mini-pout Gellar
does whenever anyone suggests that Buffy might not be a great
counselor. For wrong, see the completely gratuitous line "it's not in
the headphones. It's out here."
Rating: Decent


Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Director: Douglas Petrie

The idea of this episode doesn't work for me in a few places. The
entire Shadow Men sequence gets more unpleasant every time I see it,
on several levels. I don't think the show benefits from going so
overt with the evil-patriarchy thing, and besides, I just don't
generally like rape/violation/whatever analogies unless they're really
necessary. I go back on forth on whether I see the basis for Buffy
going all leader-from-hell on her friends, and how much we're meant to
admire the results, although the fact that I think about it at all may
be a good sign in itself. But when I tried seeing if I could come up
with ten really good things about the episode, I quickly lost count.
Just a few parts that'd be on that list would include the Spike/Wood
non-confrontation, the lengthy scene that takes us seamlessly from
humor to shock value to high drama to name-checking Tigger, Dawn
having a good episode and keeping her head, the shadow puppets, and
the one and only minute in the series during which I'm feeling the
Willow/Kennedy relationship. The whole episode is studded with well-
done scenes. The music is great when the stories climax too. Despite
my misgivings about what GID, uh, gets done, it generally does those
things stylishly enough to make for a solid bit of TV. I kinda feel
like something in this mini-run ought to get upgraded to Good, and it
might as well be this one.
Rating: Good (up from Decent)


Additional comments on S7D4: The show _Dexter_ is screwing with my
perception a little bit, since Drew Greenberg (this is the last time
I'll single him out to pick on. Probably) is a producer-type, and
both the show in general and the first episode for which he's the
credited writer are quite good. In a simpler world, one could just
dismiss a man who would create both "Him" and "The Killer In Me"
within the same season as someone who would never make a positive
contribution to entertainment, but this world is complicated.

I already hit the topic of Andrew's sexual orientation - or lack
thereof, since I concluded that he's basically asexual - in a previous
response. I do remember that I speculated a few times during the
first run-through about whether the show was trying to set something
up between him and Dawn. Their scenes are brief, but talk about
clicking; as the characters start to warm to each other, the actors
have what could turn out to be amazing chemistry. Speaking as a
viewer, there's something there. What it is I'm not quite sure, since
so little time was devoted to it. Not necessarily romantic or
anything like that; I simply was and is disproportionately attentive
to the developing friendship between these two young'uns. Sadly, the
series seems to have lost whatever interest it ever had in that
dynamic, and later episodes will instead use Anya as the Scoobie who
develops a sort of understanding with Andrew, which also works pretty
okay. I'm telling you, though, there was a missed opportunity
somewhere.

Rincewind was posting "things you'll never here on Buffy" rewrites of
key scenes; I forget where he was getting them from - possibly the
TwoP forums or something. "Potential" sparked my favorite of the set:
BUFFY: Because if you make that one mistake, then it's over. You're
not the
Slayer... you're not a Potential... you're dead. So what do you
know? Right
now, the only thing you know for sure? You got me.
(She drops the stake, backs out of the crypt with Spike and slams the
door,
locking the terrified potentials inside with the vampire.)
SPIKE: Buffy, please... People are going to die.
BUFFY: And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

> Season Seven, Episode 12: "Potential"

i just speed through all the yet-another-stupid-dawn-walkabout scenes
at some point she shoudl be expected to learn its stupid

> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"

> all. I feel like the annoyance factor is magnified when one has to
> view her as suddenly the most important person in Willow's life,

perhaps as far fetched as a loser magnet like dawn
ever getting serious with a college educated man

or as the first later points out
sometimes its just about grabbing someone to feel alive

willow hasnt had many lovers in her life or much dating experience
i took it that she was willing to be passively swept along

> problem becomes more and more obvious throughout the hour. This is
> part of a misconceived faux-clever attempt to trick us into thinking
> we're getting into a big cathartic redemption episode, when the twist
> at the end is that healing and moving on after Tara are what triggered
> and will solve this crisis. Scythe Matters summed it up most

i seem to have problem with many people that i find warren sympathetic
the usual attitude seems to be inherently evil warren dared touch ste katerina
and reaped his due reward of being executed
amd that willows problem wasnt killing him but not doing in the appropriate mode

i dont like katerina and i think warren was salvageable
and willow was a murderer not an executioner

theres a tendency for people finding excuses for friends
and refuse to find reasons for enemies
even when the friend and enemy do the exact same thing
i think right is rihgt and wrong is wrong
and i dont tolerate that kind of malarkey in my newsgroup

> happening to wander into the right places at the right time. Oh yeah,
> Amy's a pure black-hat villain now, and I enjoy her dialogue and

i think amy had been angry with willow ever since her deratting
she was angry because willow didnt fix her earlier
even though she didnt teach willow how
what was she expecting? for willow to figure it out by magic?

i see season six amy with rack and everything
as amy trying to revenge on willow
and using warrens murder as an excuse for a malediction spell

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.
com:


>
> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: David Solomon
>
> I don't think of myself (or any of the regulars on a.t.b-v-s,
> for that matter) as being hotheaded about it like some in the
> lunatic fringe of fandumb, but I don't particularly like the
> character of Kennedy. At all. I feel like the annoyance factor
> is magnified when one has to view her as suddenly the most
> important person in Willow's life

She IS an important person in Willow's life, but not the most
important person, not at any time during Season 7.

, despite the fact that they
> have little in common and are handed largely excruciating
> dialogue. [From Rincewind: "So now it appears that Willow is
> ready to date anyone without a ***** who will hit on her."] The
> fact that Hannigan and Limon have no chemistry at all helps seal
> the deal. Mangling Willow's new romance isn't enough, though -
> this episode is much more ambitious in its failure. I continue
> to like the play of the Willow-as-Warren scene in the living
> room with the chaos and the bad touching and such, but even
> there, it's dragged down a little by the weakness of the
> Hannigan/Busch mixing. As I originally commented, they don't
> seem like they're even reading for the same scene, let alone the
> same character, and this problem becomes more and more obvious
> throughout the hour. This is part of a misconceived faux-clever
> attempt to trick us into thinking we're getting into a big
> cathartic redemption episode, when the twist at the end is that
> healing and moving on after Tara are what triggered and will
> solve this crisis. Scythe Matters summed it up most accurately
> with his assessment of how the show's bait-and-switch backfires.
> To paraphrase, introducing Warren means introducing all the
> associations that come with him, which the show doesn't actually
> address (since that's not what TKIM is about), leaving them
> hovering unsatisfyingly and drowning out anything TKIM might
> have to say about Willow/Tara/Kennedy.

I didn't see there as being any "bait-and-switch". It was just
picking one of several logical ways for the story to go.

>
> Meanwhile, the plot is driven largely by characters improbably
> happening to wander into the right places at the right time. Oh
> yeah, Amy's a pure black-hat villain now, and I enjoy her
> dialogue and Allen's relishing of it as much as I bemoan her
> lack of an arc or any real coherency to her portrayal. Oh, and
> this is the one where Spike gets his chip out, which for some
> reason requires a bunch of scenes that don't say much of
> anything and a "climactic" fight scene that's drowned in
> near-total darkness. (David says it's one of his favorite
> things he shot in the commentary, making me wonder if everyone's
> head was just on wrong that week.) It's kinda sweet that
> Riley's learned a few things from his time with Buffy. And we
> finally tell that Giles joke, which is okay, although now I can
> be annoyed since I know that the original final punchline to the
> scene was axed. In summary, TKIM is loaded with ideas that have
> potential, and there are enough good lines and good scenes
> scattered throughout that on the one hand I do want to properly
> credit the show for it. But at the same time, it also deserves
> special consideration for failing so miserably at everything it
> attempts. Rating: Bad (down from Weak)

I, on the other hand, liked this episode a lot. I liked the
beginnings of the Willow/Kennedy romance. I think they click well
together and that Kennedy is very much (just as Oz and Tara were
before her) the sort of person Willow needs at this particular time.
I liked the banter between Willow and Buffy (and Buffy and Giles
before that), and the interaction between Buffy and Spike. I liked
the Willow/Warren switch and how it played out. And the plotline
leading up to the decision to remove Spike's chip. And while the
Giles-may-be-the-First joke had long outlived its welcome I did like
the immediate prelude to the punchline (starting with Anya, Xander,
and Dawn feeding off of each's other's panic). In short, I thought
just about everything in this episode worked well. A solid good for
me.

>
>
> Season Seven, Episode 14: "First Date"
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: David Grossman
>
> The series has decided to give Giles what I find to be a
> thoroughly unsatisfying story this season (see OBS's response to
> the S7D3 post for more). In this particular episode, it's not
> pleasant viewing for someone who's always liked the character
> (who's never been a saint or anything to begin with) to see him
> as alternately a bumbling idiot and a bumbling guy lashing out
> in frustration.

Not really. What's happening to Giles is that (between suddenly
going from a somewhat rebellious Watcher to BEING the Watcher's
Council and also being in a situation outside all of his experience)
is that he's tending to fall back on his training in most matters
EXCEPT for his relationship with Buffy. Most of what Giles is doing
follows naturally from this.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

On Apr 9, 10:32 am, mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fh...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> > Season Seven, Episode 12: "Potential"

> i seem to have problem with many people that i find warren sympathetic
> the usual attitude seems to be inherently evil warren dared touch ste katerina
> and reaped his due reward of being executed
> amd that willows problem wasnt killing him but not doing in the appropriate mode
>
> i dont like katerina and i think warren was salvageable

So, clearly she deserved to die! [Just giving you a hard time.]

> and willow was a murderer not an executioner

Well, "Dead Things," "Seeing Red," and "Villains" all show what Warren
is capable of doing if the heroes don't step up and take care of him.
He needs to be taken out of the picture, away from access to any of
his supernatural toys or the chance to kill or hurt anyone else.
Whether or not he has to die rather than whatever alternative Buffy
had in mind is more debatable, but I think the series itself more or
less sides with you on this one. Especially since it leads to
attempted murder of two less-guilty kids which is treated as such, and
eventually an attempt to wipe out the human species. Once Willow
kills Warren, there's no doubt that she's Dark Willow, the villain of
the S6-closing arc.

> theres a tendency for people finding excuses for friends
> and refuse to find reasons for enemies
> even when the friend and enemy do the exact same thing
> i think right is rihgt and wrong is wrong
> and i dont tolerate that kind of malarkey in my newsgroup

If Warren was salvageable, I think it's only in a "when there's life,
there's hope" sort of way. Being human, he has the capacity for good,
but one won't find him exhibiting any admirable traits. Had he not
been murdered, well, who knows? If Warren had shown any sign of
remorse or thrown his lot in with the Scoobies like Andrew, the show
might well have decided that forgiveness was what he needed too. BTVS
rolls that way.

-AOQ

On Apr 9, 6:38 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote innews:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.
> com:

> > Scythe Matters summed it up most accurately
> > with his assessment of how the show's bait-and-switch backfires.
> > To paraphrase, introducing Warren means introducing all the
> > associations that come with him, which the show doesn't actually
> > address (since that's not what TKIM is about), leaving them
> > hovering unsatisfyingly and drowning out anything TKIM might
> > have to say about Willow/Tara/Kennedy.
>
> I didn't see there as being any "bait-and-switch". It was just
> picking one of several logical ways for the story to go.

It's the very definition of a bait and switch. We're supposed to
think that Willow is forced to be seen as a murderer because she's,
well, a murderer. The big twist at the end is that she's seeing
herself as a killer for a very different reason. Hinting at one story
and then telling another is *the way the episode's constructed*. The
technique itself isn't inherently bad. The reason that it doesn't
work in this particular case is because, well... "It's like bringing
Angel back to make some sort of unrelated point about Buffy's poor
counseling skills; wrong character, wrong associations, wrong choice.
There's too much else that Angel's presence implies. And the same is
true here, for Warren. " - SM

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:72c4d699-cc04-4ffc-bd6f-6f8e3083f1bd@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.
com:

> On Apr 9, 6:38 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote
>> innews:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegr
>> oups. com:
>
>> > Scythe Matters summed it up most accurately
>> > with his assessment of how the show's bait-and-switch
>> > backfires.
>> > To paraphrase, introducing Warren means introducing all the
>> > associations that come with him, which the show doesn't
>> > actually address (since that's not what TKIM is about),
>> > leaving them hovering unsatisfyingly and drowning out
>> > anything TKIM might have to say about Willow/Tara/Kennedy.
>>
>> I didn't see there as being any "bait-and-switch". It was just
>> picking one of several logical ways for the story to go.
>
> It's the very definition of a bait and switch. We're supposed
> to think that Willow is forced to be seen as a murderer because
> she's, well, a murderer. The big twist at the end is that she's
> seeing herself as a killer for a very different reason. Hinting
> at one story and then telling another is *the way the episode's
> constructed*. The technique itself isn't inherently bad. The
> reason that it doesn't work in this particular case is because,
> well... "It's like bringing Angel back to make some sort of
> unrelated point about Buffy's poor counseling skills; wrong
> character, wrong associations, wrong choice. There's too much
> else that Angel's presence implies. And the same is true here,
> for Warren. " - SM

Except that it basically HAS to be Warren for the plotline they
chose. Because Warren was the one who actually killed Tara.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

On Apr 10, 5:43 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote innews:72c4d699-cc04-4ffc-bd6f-6f8e3083f1bd@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.
> com:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 6:38 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
> >> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote
> >> innews:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegr
> >> oups. com:
>
> >> > Scythe Matters summed it up most accurately
> >> > with his assessment of how the show's bait-and-switch
> >> > backfires.
> >> > To paraphrase, introducing Warren means introducing all the
> >> > associations that come with him, which the show doesn't
> >> > actually address (since that's not what TKIM is about),
> >> > leaving them hovering unsatisfyingly and drowning out
> >> > anything TKIM might have to say about Willow/Tara/Kennedy.
>
> >> I didn't see there as being any "bait-and-switch". It was just
> >> picking one of several logical ways for the story to go.
>
> > It's the very definition of a bait and switch. We're supposed
> > to think that Willow is forced to be seen as a murderer because
> > she's, well, a murderer. The big twist at the end is that she's
> > seeing herself as a killer for a very different reason. Hinting
> > at one story and then telling another is *the way the episode's
> > constructed*. The technique itself isn't inherently bad. The
> > reason that it doesn't work in this particular case is because,
> > well... "It's like bringing Angel back to make some sort of
> > unrelated point about Buffy's poor counseling skills; wrong
> > character, wrong associations, wrong choice. There's too much
> > else that Angel's presence implies. And the same is true here,
> > for Warren. " - SM
>
> Except that it basically HAS to be Warren for the plotline they
> chose. Because Warren was the one who actually killed Tara.

Add "wrong plotline" to the list, then.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: If these threads were a sign of being evil, where would
> they be?

When I see a pattern on this -er- board, I'll let you know.


> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 12: "Potential"

> I'd remembered Disc 4 as, even more so than the previous one, as a
> dark period in BTVS's lifetime.

Just one problem episode - and even that one has attributes. I think it's a
pretty watchable group.


> This was the first pleasant surprise,
> an episode I'd forgotten how much I liked and how well it holds
> together. Well, except for going overboard with Dawn being a bit
> stupid - c'mon show, just have her bring a stake to the party and I'll
> shut up about it.

Maybe this will make you feel a wee bit better. The stakes were back at the
house. She'd just left the house 'cause she didn't want to be there. And
she probably didn't want to take Amanda back there either because the guys
back there would want to take charge. She wants to prove herself, but she
won't be allowed to if she goes back home first. That doesn't make it any
smarter a decision, but it does give it a motive.


> But there are some bite-sized scenes letting
> Potentials (and Clem!) show off their semblance of personalities,
> while we follow someone we do care about getting that responsibility
> apparently thrown onto her. And even the Dawn haters should have
> difficulty with their not caring about her, in the episode's vivid
> portrayal of how capable she can be while still being permanently,
> intractably out of her league in this world. (This is probably the
> example for me in which Dawn best fills the "vulnerable but not
> helpless mortal" niche that made S1-2 Willow such a big contributor to
> the show.) The extended vampire chase through the school holds up
> very well on re-watching - so fast paced. Of course, it's all leading
> up to Xander doing that blah blah blah thing he does so well, in a way
> that puts the episode in its context while helping summarize the pure-
> human characters' part in the larger story. Marvelous scene to
> satisfyingly close a bit of an underrated gem.
> Rating: Good

I enjoy this episode too, though I don't think there's much room for Dawn
after this. I guess with Xander's talk this takes the character about as
far as it gets. A little disappointing maybe, but it's a pretty good season
for her. A lot better than S6. She gets two episodes centered on her and a
decent amount of pretty solid filler and good laughs. I think they do
succeed in showing her maturing - but still at high school level.

Last time you or somebody noted that Buffy wasn't around to see what Dawn
did. I commented how for Dawn, it was as if she was by her side telling her
how to fight. (Hence the very nice cutting between Buffy instructing the
Potentials and Dawn acting those instructions out.) But I think there's a
negative aspect to Buffy not seeing it besides missing her sister's good
work. One of the things Dawn does nicely this episode is demonstrate what
if feels like to be a potential in this situation - reinforced by all the
unfortunate words from Xander and Anya and Willow and Andrew. Buffy
probably thinks she gets that, but doesn't really. She's never been in the
situation. She never knew she was a Potential. She skipped right to the
full power of a Slayer. Not easy either, but still different. Buffy might
have got it a little better if she'd seen the struggle her sister went
through. Maybe empathized a little more with the Potentials.

I still think there were no sexual connotations at all for Buffy when she
pulled up Spike's shirt to check his wound. Though it does speak to her
caring for him on a personal level. The snickering of the Potentials and
Spike's embarrassment are understandable, but not really called for. Which
makes it a really good scene I think - demonstrating how perceptions can get
fixed a little off kilter. Nothing terrible happens here, but it helps
establish a baseline for what people will think when Spike's status comes
into question. Spike incidentally hurting Vi's arm plays into that too.

Anyway, Good is what I rate this too.

I'm time slicing a bit right now, so I'm just going to do this episode for
now. Hopefully I'll get to the others later.

OBS

In article <GuCdnZu0pIkuhmLanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@supernews.com>,
"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:

> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> > A reminder: If these threads were a sign of being evil, where would
> > they be?
>
> When I see a pattern on this -er- board, I'll let you know.
>
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 12: "Potential"
>
> > I'd remembered Disc 4 as, even more so than the previous one, as a
> > dark period in BTVS's lifetime.
>
> Just one problem episode - and even that one has attributes. I think it's a
> pretty watchable group.
>
>
> > This was the first pleasant surprise,
> > an episode I'd forgotten how much I liked and how well it holds
> > together. Well, except for going overboard with Dawn being a bit
> > stupid - c'mon show, just have her bring a stake to the party and I'll
> > shut up about it.
>
> Maybe this will make you feel a wee bit better. The stakes were back at the
> house. She'd just left the house 'cause she didn't want to be there. And
> she probably didn't want to take Amanda back there either because the guys
> back there would want to take charge. She wants to prove herself, but she
> won't be allowed to if she goes back home first. That doesn't make it any
> smarter a decision, but it does give it a motive.

She shouldn't have left the house without a stake, a cross, and a holy
water squirt gun. Those should be standard items that she always
carries with her.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

In article <GuCdnZu0pIkuhmLanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@supernews.com>,
"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:

> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 12: "Potential"

> Maybe this will make you feel a wee bit better. The stakes were back at the
> house. She'd just left the house 'cause she didn't want to be there. And

as someone will soon point out
walking anywhere in sunnydale at night is an extreme sport
thats something dawn would be expected to know

dawn gets shrill in conversations
but she is being as competent as possible

> I enjoy this episode too, though I don't think there's much room for Dawn

i like the dawn free scenes
ive never tried throwing chicken embryo pods in the fire
but what with the sulfur i imagine they wouldnt smell too great

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

In article
<mair_fheal-2DB921.03003711042008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <GuCdnZu0pIkuhmLanZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> > > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > > Season Seven, Episode 12: "Potential"
>
> > Maybe this will make you feel a wee bit better. The stakes were back at
> > the
> > house. She'd just left the house 'cause she didn't want to be there. And
>
> as someone will soon point out
> walking anywhere in sunnydale at night is an extreme sport
> thats something dawn would be expected to know

The fact that we do see people out walking around at night means that it
can't be that bad. We get a distorted view of how dangerous it is,
because the story follows Buffy, who is goes out looking for trouble, or
shows us pre-selected victims. If we see a girl walking down a dark
street, we know she's about to become demon kibble. They don't show all
the girls who walked down the street who didn't get eaten.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: David Solomon
>
> I don't think of myself (or any of the regulars on a.t.b-v-s, for that
> matter) as being hotheaded about it like some in the lunatic fringe of
> fandumb,

I recall you once telling me, "Yeah? Well, so's your face!" I was so
flabbergasted. Not the first time I was a little slow to slow to recognize
a quote from the show.


<snip>

> In summary, TKIM
> is loaded with ideas that have potential, and there are enough good
> lines and good scenes scattered throughout that on the one hand I do
> want to properly credit the show for it. But at the same time, it
> also deserves special consideration for failing so miserably at
> everything it attempts.
> Rating: Bad (down from Weak)

I pretty much agree with your evaluation of what's wrong with the episode,
and even that it earns some special retribution. But the thing is that
there's some really good stuff in it, and even where it fails and makes me
want to throw things at the screen, it tends to provoke thought. The truth
is that it's one of the more interesting episodes of the season - and one
that touches on a whole lot of things pretty heavily. So I end up giving it
a Decent rating - not in the medium kind of bland sense that the word tends
to imply, but as the necessary balance between very strong good and bad.

Last time I mostly centered on what was wrong with the episode, so I'm going
to come at it slightly different this time.

I got a little push back last time with my comment that Buffy is acting like
Spike's wife. It's not a perfect description, but I still don't know what
captures it better. There's a kind of stripped down frankness between them
that reminds me of couples that have been together forever. (Yeah, I know
they haven't been together forever. It's still the vibe though.) Built out
of the kind of intimacy that knows where the unfortunate tuft of hair is or
whatever other unmentionable private characteristics they have. This vibe
has been there for a while - I tend to date it to when Buffy impassively fed
blood to the bound Spike in Never Leave Me. I think it really comes to the
fore this episode. That makes for a nice lead-in to Buffy being confronted
with the decision about Spike's chip. She's got rationales for her decision
that she'll pass onto Giles next episode. But the way I look at it is that
nobody understands like she does how much the chip pains Spike on all
levels - physical, mental, emotional. It's one thing to cope with what
others inflicted - maybe even appreciate what the Initiative did. But
there's no way that Buffy would accept responsibility for inflicting such a
thing on somebody. In spite of the cold reputation Buffy gets this season,
what we're getting with Spike here and elsewhere is the demonstration that
Buffy is still ruled by her heart.

That's kind of what I was getting at when I spoke of people getting the
wrong idea about the two of them last episode. It's not boyfriend
favoritism. It's Buffy's heart knowing someone, knowing how terrible the
chip is for him, and believing in what's possible for him. Nobody else
could make this decision - except maybe Andrew. They're still hung up on
Spike being a monster. But they'd be wrong. Not least for failing to
recognize how much Buffy does the same for them all. As Andrew points out
next episode, there are a bunch of ex-murderers that are there because Buffy
believes and trusts in them too.

This episode kind of mucks around with this element when it sends Buffy and
Spike on a terribly boring underground escapade, and then focuses the energy
into a cliffhanger that's not. But the foundation is still here for a
transformative decision that on the one hand sets free the budding hero,
while on the other sets up the fracturing of the Scoobies. With all the
Kennedy and Warren stuff, it can be easy to glide over what a big deal the
Spike element really is.

---

Why oh why has Elizabeth Anne Allen had such a comparatively minor career.
Did you know that she's 37 now?

---

Even though TKIM uses the Willow/Warren parallel as a misdirect, it still is
responsible for me realizing what a strong parallel it is. The two socially
inept geeks recklessly reaching for power as compensation and then consumed
by it. What really stands out is that the big difference - Warren chose an
evil path while Willow chose the noble one - counted for very little when
the power ran the show. It's about the power. Quite an appropriate pairing
for the S7 theme. And one that definitely points at Willow's challenge to
find a way to live with the power.

Part of the problem with using that as a misdirect is that the issue of
Willow living with the power strikes me as more -er- powerful than the issue
of letting go of Tara. I know that there's a personal emotional element to
the Tara question that the more abstract power issue lacks. But come on,
even Willow understands (when she thinks about it) that she has to let go
some day - and the guilt along with it. Living with the power, however, is
a genuine mystery that never really does get effectively addressed. Unless
you think that white eyes are better than black eyes is good enough.

So, yeah, there are problems with the choice. But bringing Warren into the
picture still sends me down an interesting path for thought.

---

So lets leave the misdirect aspect out for the moment and look at where they
did go. First regarding Kennedy. I'm not much of a fan of the
characterization. I don't think Iyari Limon is much of an actress. I don't
think she and Hannigan work together well on screen. The show even does
some funny things with the way she's shot around this time that aren't very
appealing. (Last episode she looks somehow over sized sitting on the couch
with the other Potentials - even though she's actually kind of small. Her
strange posture is pretty much always distracting. This episode there are
some close-ups and an overhead shot that just look weird. Generally it
feels sort of like there's a personal spotlight on her all the time while
everybody else is normal.) Be that as it may, I do kind of like what's
attempted with the character. So I guess I'll get in a second sort of
defense of Kennedy after all.

One of the defenses of Kennedy is that she's independent and won't allow
Willow to dominate her like with Tara and - sort of - Oz. I'm actually
moving the opposite direction in my thinking now. By the end of the season
Kennedy is practically worshiping Willow. "You are a goddess." I think she
gets pretty damned consumed by Willow, and acts as overtly pro-Willow as
people think Buffy is doing with Spike. The difference is how she got
there. Tara and Oz both were bewitched by Willow before a word was spoken.
Kennedy was just looking for some action. Kennedy makes it clear that she
doesn't know much of anything about Willow and isn't terribly interested in
knowing. She's positively dismissive of magic. "I'm not so into the magic
stuff. It seems like fairy tale crap to me." And just about the opposite of
romantic. "If she's really hot, you just get her drunk-see if she comes on
to you." (Note that Kennedy has dragged Willow to a bar for drinks.)

It's sure not the magical attraction of Willow's past relationships.
(Though it's not evil either. Kennedy's just horny.) But really, with the
burden of Willow's history, do you really think she'd be receptive to
"magical"? I'd think she'd run the other way. It makes sense to me that
she'd respond to something a whole lot less demanding. Something without
the big emotional investment. Of course it didn't quite turn out that way.

For Kennedy, I think she's first hit with a sense of responsibility. After
all, her kiss seemed to have provoked all the trouble. And then seeing
everybody else just let her go off alone - well, that can't be right. And,
then, when she effectively saves Willow, well, damn! I think Kennedy gets a
little like Xander in the early years when he thought of himself as Buffy's
protector. It becomes kind of Kennedy's job to be with Willow all the time
and stand up for her against any perceived slight.

Then there's the magic element. I know that, "It's just like fairy tales,"
is a little sappy, but it works pretty well anyway. I mean, kissing Warren
sure comes across to me as equivalent to kissing the frog. Maybe getting
Willow isn't exactly like getting a prince, but, hey, gay now. More to the
point is that the framing for Kennedy's understanding of magic isn't merely
belief in magic, but rather in fairy tales. Kennedy becomes the true
believer in the sense of Willow can do anything. And she experiences a
****ed up situation as something extraordinary, uplifting and self
validating. "I am good." This is likely the most romantic thing Kennedy
has ever experienced.

Get it Done's magical experience is initially more off putting - giving
Kennedy pause. She gets over it, though we don't learn a whole lot about
why. My own take is that all of this adds up to showing how extraordinary
Willow is. Not just the power, though that's amazing, but even Willow's
burdens and struggles exist on a level beyond what normal people have or
could bear. Willow does. And that's amazing too. So Kennedy gets a little
star struck by her proximity to Willow, while her natural boldness pushes
her to be as close as possible. And so on. I don't sense that Kennedy has
much experience with being besotted.

Meanwhile, back on Willow's ranch, the standout thing for her is that the
worst of her is bared for Kennedy, and Kennedy doesn't blink an eye.
Willow, whose psychological profile we're told is wearing a costume, can't
disguise herself with Kennedy. Kennedy's seen her lose control of her
power. Kennedy's felt her steal the essence of others without their
permission. The things that Willow hates and fears about herself don't stop
Kennedy's affection. Tara and Oz in their own ways accepted Willow for who
she was too, but not in this sense. Not with Willow believing it too. She
still thought of herself wearing her costume with them. Not having to do
that with Kennedy is what I think is most liberating for Willow right now,
and the element that most helps Willow get hold of her power. It lets her
be a little less afraid of failing.

The getting over Tara part is I think made pretty clear. I'll just note
that Tara was the one who most wanted Willow to put a lid on performing
magic. So this episode's conclusion does make some S7 logic by removing
that block. Since that notion had been somewhat an S6 misdirect anyway, I
suppose it could be argued to be the big solution to Willow's S7 problem. I
remain skeptical, but that's what the story seems to be.



> Season Seven, Episode 14: "First Date"

> The series has decided to give Giles what I find to be a thoroughly
> unsatisfying story this season (see OBS's response to the S7D3 post
> for more). In this particular episode, it's not pleasant viewing for
> someone who's always liked the character (who's never been a saint or
> anything to begin with) to see him as alternately a bumbling idiot and
> a bumbling guy lashing out in frustration. (Part of the dubious point
> of "First Date" is to move him into place for LMPTM.)

By channeling early S3 Xander? It's not just the quality of his choices in
question, it's behavior that seems unhinged. OK, even thoughtful people can
come unhinged under pressure. I do kind of enjoy how the episode is
constructed to show people not paying attention to Giles - even unable to by
having one Potential literally speak another language. It's just that this
ultimately is supposed to reflect poorly on Buffy's leadership in the eyes
of others. And all the time I'm thinking you should never trust the
judgement of somebody acting like Giles.

The Giles part feels worse in retrospect than it did first time. Now I know
what it's leading to. But it doesn't necessarily have to. His outburst
really could stay as frustration at being on a different page and not being
properly heard. There's a lot that could be done with that without taking
it as far as they chose to do. At this point it's still largely the same
type of conflict Giles and Buffy have had since the start. So I'm not
inclined to penalize this episode quite so much.


> What the
> episode lacks in Rupertosity it makes up for in character work for
> Robin Wood and Andrew. The former finally gets to do something other
> than act mysterious, emerging as an interesting guy who's managed to
> mostly replace bloodlust with matter-of-fact training and cover the
> rest up with charm, but still has that streak in him. The episode's
> few aspirations towards drama tend to target him, especially in that
> killer closing moment. Meanwhile the show lets us know that it, and
> Andrew, do actually intend to pursue his redemption story. Here's the
> mix of comedy and actual embryonic admirable qualities that
> characterizes the better Andrew performances, and here are I believe
> the first signs of self-awareness about Jonathan's death.

Andrew is all good. He gets some backbone here too.


> Cameoing
> celebrity Ashanti really can't act, but at least she looks real good
> in that dress.

I liked the coffee shop scene quite a bit. The Xander/Anya aspect of the
episode is a little suggestive, but I think I'll leave that alone for now.


> FD remains a pleasant episode when Giles isn't on
> screen, I'm entertained by it, and on re-watching I was tempted to
> bump it up a rating. I can't quite go all the way there, and I
> actually just now watched it once again to be sure that I couldn't.
>
> FD has some good examples of both subtly getting things right and
> wrong. For right, see Buffy's flattered look in response to Wood's
> "you're the Slayer," or even better, the hilarious mini-pout Gellar
> does whenever anyone suggests that Buffy might not be a great
> counselor. For wrong, see the completely gratuitous line "it's not in
> the headphones. It's out here."

I like that OK. But then I've never understood why they got ridiculed for
wiring Andrew.


> Rating: Decent

A low Good for me.

OBS

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> Season Seven, Episode 15: "Get It Done"

I was almost done with a thorough follow-up to our last discussion on this
when ineptitude took over and I essentially wiped out all my Usenet files.
I don't think I'll be re-creating that...

> The idea of this episode doesn't work for me in a few places. The
> entire Shadow Men sequence gets more unpleasant every time I see it,
> on several levels. I don't think the show benefits from going so
> overt with the evil-patriarchy thing, and besides, I just don't
> generally like rape/violation/whatever analogies unless they're really
> necessary.

The evil patriarchy element to this season is probably the most overdone
thematic element - maybe of the series. But BtVS has always gone for the
very simple allegory when dealing with the feminist underpinnings of the
series. Joss is using S7 in particular to depict a fundamental story of
empowerment overcoming an entrenched patriarchy. I don't think he wanted
any muddling of message by including anything resembling a sympathetic
portrayal of the patriarchal side. Just using Giles (a known decent guy) as
the representative of the WC (and corrupted by them) is as far as the show
seems to go that direction. Otherwise it's black and white. I believe the
Shadow Men and Caleb are also being used to represent an active, passionate
and ruthless resistance to empowerment. In other words, overcoming the
patriarchy takes more than the desire to. It has to be fought for against
people who believe in the status quo and will do anything to preserve it.

I have a lot of doubts about the choice, not least because it plays to some
of the more extreme and questionable feminist theories about patriarchy. On
the other hand, this is just a fable and an adventure that's not really
capable of supporting such nuanced thinking on its own. Going straight and
hard to the conflict might be the best story choice.

Meanwhile, I like quite a bit the look and feel of the Shadow Men scenes.
The imagery of this episode is generally very good. The rape analogy really
doesn't strike me that badly. It fits with the kind of feminism being
related to. Rape is commonly described as an act of power. Some feminist
philosophy treats rape as THE central metaphor for imposing mastery over
women. It's about the power.


> I go back on forth on whether I see the basis for Buffy
> going all leader-from-hell on her friends, and how much we're meant to
> admire the results, although the fact that I think about it at all may
> be a good sign in itself.

You should feel at least uneasy with what she did. Buffy sacrifices more
than she probably realizes with her tactic. She gets away with it here
because she's right and shown to be. But being right doesn't remove the
resentment at being treated that way. She sets herself up to be judged
entirely on the results of the moment. And nobody's good enough to be right
all of the time. The moment something goes wrong, so also goes the
motivation to follow her.

It's a difficult leadership situation. Kicking *** isn't an easy thing to
do - especially when it involves friends. (Can she afford to be friends?
Another leadership challenge. Many people believe leaders can't.) It might
have served her better to speak of kicking her own *** too. Something less
than standing above everybody in superiority. But might that only deflate
the necessary message? Chloe really does demonstrate that people won't
survive depending so heavily on Buffy. People really do have to rely on
themselves rather than just waiting on Buffy. Having her back doesn't mean
hiding behind it.

Is something like this really necessary? I think Cloe's death amply
demonstrates it. (That's 3 dead now in Sunnydale.) If there's any doubt,
the impact on Willow and Spike should settle it. Even Anya a little. One
might in retrospect go back and craft a different way of delivering the
message, but it's not crazy. The harsh words about Chloe are effective at
getting attention and passing on the message that you're going to die like
her if you don't change what you're doing.

Being right and justified isn't always enough. A leader is entirely
dependent on the willingness of people to follow. Without that the position
is hopeless. Possibly the most damaging mixed message of this scene was a
sense passed on that Buffy doesn't really care about them - that they're
expendable in her eyes. That's really unfortunate because I believe she's
motivated to do this because she cares too much. Buffy will speak of
consciously distancing herself from the Potentials because she knows some
will die - and she can't bear being close to them under those circumstances.
But she's fooling herself - not only as to what it does to her leadership -
but because she can't stop caring.

I don't have the energy to go back and follow-up our prior discussion, but I
wanted to point out how much I think this scene hurts Buffy going forward.
It pretty much primes the bunch for future resistance. I'm not entirely on
her side here.

But at the same time there's a failure component for the Scoobies and
Potentials too. One of the hardest things for followers to learn is that
following direction does not preclude initiative. Xander sure isn't getting
it, which leads to that most unfortunate line, "Well, from now on, I'm your
leader as in do what I say." It's funny and no different than what Xander
said on the face of it. But what is it that Buffy is telling Xander and
everybody to do? To stop waiting on her. That's 100% opposite to what
Xander asserted.

The Scoobies and Potentials are here and through much of the season being
used to represent the powerful inertia of societal norms. Self empowerment
isn't the way they understand the world. It isn't the way they understand
the relationship with a leader. One would be missing half the scene not
recognizing how much it's about their struggle to change their own way of
thinking.


> But when I tried seeing if I could come up
> with ten really good things about the episode, I quickly lost count.
> Just a few parts that'd be on that list would include the Spike/Wood
> non-confrontation, the lengthy scene that takes us seamlessly from
> humor to shock value to high drama to name-checking Tigger, Dawn
> having a good episode and keeping her head, the shadow puppets, and
> the one and only minute in the series during which I'm feeling the
> Willow/Kennedy relationship.

That's a pretty good moment, but I still can't help wonder where the love is
for Anya who suffered Willow's reach for power just as Kennedy did.


> The whole episode is studded with well-
> done scenes. The music is great when the stories climax too. Despite
> my misgivings about what GID, uh, gets done, it generally does those
> things stylishly enough to make for a solid bit of TV. I kinda feel
> like something in this mini-run ought to get upgraded to Good, and it
> might as well be this one.
> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

Still Excellent in my book.

One somewhat different thing about the big argument. Big arguments have
been a staple for BtVS at least since S2. (S1 arguments don't seem as
hostile.) They're pretty much always marked by competing perspectives with
comparable basis. S7 is no exception to that. But the usual pattern in the
past has been pretty rapid reconciliation. This season things just keep
getting worse until the hard divorce between Buffy and everybody else.

I think this has a perhaps unintended effect upon the audience. We've seen
many "debates" in this newsgroup about which side of the argument is
"right", but the show doesn't provide much compelling need to choose, and I
suspect most watchers of the show never do. This season, however, those
conflicts are hard enough with consequences that actually split people so
hard, that I feel like the audience is almost being compelled to choose
sides. I suspect that's why a considerable number of people were turned off
by late S7. They don't want to choose between Buffy and Giles. Or choose
any of the other sides.



> Additional comments on S7D4: The show _Dexter_ is screwing with my
> perception a little bit, since Drew Greenberg (this is the last time
> I'll single him out to pick on. Probably) is a producer-type, and
> both the show in general and the first episode for which he's the
> credited writer are quite good.

Brilliant first episode. I sure didn't expect something like that. The
next few weren't that powerful, but still quite good. Alas, I haven't been
able to keep up with the broadcasts. I guess it's another DVD set I'll need
to hunt down used.


> Sadly, the
> series seems to have lost whatever interest it ever had in that
> dynamic, and later episodes will instead use Anya as the Scoobie who
> develops a sort of understanding with Andrew, which also works pretty
> okay. I'm telling you, though, there was a missed opportunity
> somewhere.

Sure, but then what do you do with Anya? I don't think the problem is
missed opportunity so much as it is too many opportunities to fit into the
season.

OBS

On Apr 12, 12:08 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"

> Part of the problem with using that as a misdirect is that the issue of
> Willow living with the power strikes me as more -er- powerful than the issue
> of letting go of Tara. I know that there's a personal emotional element to
> the Tara question that the more abstract power issue lacks. But come on,
> even Willow understands (when she thinks about it) that she has to let go
> some day - and the guilt along with it. Living with the power, however, is
> a genuine mystery that never really does get effectively addressed. Unless
> you think that white eyes are better than black eyes is good enough.

It's not really an either-or question, since the show feels it needs
to address both topics, separately. Living without Tara gets covered
here. Living with what she can do is supposed to be this background
thing running through S7 as it weighs on her, and she slowly learns to
live with it, day by day. In theory. Actually, what happens is that
the series runs out of story for Willow around the time of "Bring On
The Night" and then slaps a few protentious lines in the last couple
episodes and gives her white eyes instead of black. But as much as I
jump at the chance to find another flaw in TKIM, I don't think it's
this episode's "fault" that the rest of the season skimps on Willow's
arc.

> One of the defenses of Kennedy is that she's independent and won't allow
> Willow to dominate her like with Tara and - sort of - Oz. I'm actually
> moving the opposite direction in my thinking now. By the end of the season
> Kennedy is practically worshiping Willow. "You are a goddess."

Gotta agree there. I'll add a reminder that someone like S4-Tara
would let Willow dominate her, but late-S6-Tara, not so much. So I
don't think it's an informative comparison to make when contrasting
Willow's girlfriends. (Oz isn't really comparable, since Willow was
only dabbling in the harder stuff when she was with him, and none of
the characters had picked up on the destructive road she was
skirting. More generally, he tended to know what to say to deflate
Willow's attempts to wave her hand and fix things, but it's hard to
say how things would have progressed and whether he would have let her
lose control.)

> For Kennedy, I think she's first hit with a sense of responsibility. After
> all, her kiss seemed to have provoked all the trouble. And then seeing
> everybody else just let her go off alone - well, that can't be right. And,
> then, when she effectively saves Willow, well, damn! I think Kennedy gets a
> little like Xander in the early years when he thought of himself as Buffy's
> protector. It becomes kind of Kennedy's job to be with Willow all the time
> and stand up for her against any perceived slight.

I see Kennedy as more of a fit for the defender role, as seen mostly
in the big group argument scenes, than for the kite-string role, which
plays like a scene written for Tara.

> > Season Seven, Episode 14: "First Date"
> > The series has decided to give Giles what I find to be a thoroughly
> > unsatisfying story this season (see OBS's response to the S7D3 post
> > for more). In this particular episode, it's not pleasant viewing for
> > someone who's always liked the character (who's never been a saint or
> > anything to begin with) to see him as alternately a bumbling idiot and
> > a bumbling guy lashing out in frustration. (Part of the dubious point
> > of "First Date" is to move him into place for LMPTM.)
>
> By channeling early S3 Xander? It's not just the quality of his choices in
> question, it's behavior that seems unhinged. OK, even thoughtful people can
> come unhinged under pressure. I do kind of enjoy how the episode is
> constructed to show people not paying attention to Giles - even unable to by
> having one Potential literally speak another language.

I kinda smiled at one joke involving Cho-Ahn, once. It wasn't in this
episode.

> It's just that this
> ultimately is supposed to reflect poorly on Buffy's leadership in the eyes
> of others. And all the time I'm thinking you should never trust the
> judgement of somebody acting like Giles.

I keep going back to the same words over and over, but Seasons Six and
(especially) Seven do seem to make a point of undercutting Giles's
integrity, and it continues to be frustrating to me, as a fan. "First
Date" is a good example of this, as it repeatedly shows him dispensing
wise-sounding words while he's talking out of his ***, attempting to
raise doubts about whether he ever had anything genuine to
contribute. Not only is Giles frustrated and often wrong-headed, he's
a ridiculous figure, worthy of scorn as he pompously yells at everyone
and tries to lay down the rules while not having a clue what he's
doing. As we've both kinda said, in line with making him a stand-in
for the WC/Shadow Men, who are in turn a stand-in for patronizing
patriarchy, the show's storyline makes Giles part of the problem, not
part of the solution. I share the frustration of those who enjoyed
what the character contributed to Seasons 1-5, and would simply rather
see him as a more admirable (if far from a flawless) person in
episodes that aren't "Chosen." The net effect is that I can't see his
point of view at all by the time we get to LMPTM, which feeds into my
feeling that the show is basically forcing us to side with Buffy by
stacking the deck. And I do blame this episode in part for it.

> The Giles part feels worse in retrospect than it did first time. Now I know
> what it's leading to. But it doesn't necessarily have to. His outburst
> really could stay as frustration at being on a different page and not being
> properly heard. There's a lot that could be done with that without taking
> it as far as they chose to do. At this point it's still largely the same
> type of conflict Giles and Buffy have had since the start. So I'm not
> inclined to penalize this episode quite so much.

As you say elsewhere, the end of S7 is, for whatever reason, all about
getting everyone into fights and picking between two camps.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:20eb82a7-2734-4ff5-adeb-e97840938158@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 12, 12:08 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
>
>> Part of the problem with using that as a misdirect is that the issue of
>> Willow living with the power strikes me as more -er- powerful than the
>> issue
>> of letting go of Tara. I know that there's a personal emotional element
>> to
>> the Tara question that the more abstract power issue lacks. But come on,
>> even Willow understands (when she thinks about it) that she has to let go
>> some day - and the guilt along with it. Living with the power, however,
>> is
>> a genuine mystery that never really does get effectively addressed.
>> Unless
>> you think that white eyes are better than black eyes is good enough.
>
> It's not really an either-or question, since the show feels it needs
> to address both topics, separately. Living without Tara gets covered
> here. Living with what she can do is supposed to be this background
> thing running through S7 as it weighs on her, and she slowly learns to
> live with it, day by day. In theory. Actually, what happens is that
> the series runs out of story for Willow around the time of "Bring On
> The Night" and then slaps a few protentious lines in the last couple
> episodes and gives her white eyes instead of black. But as much as I
> jump at the chance to find another flaw in TKIM, I don't think it's
> this episode's "fault" that the rest of the season skimps on Willow's
> arc.

I'm not so sure. As incomplete as it seems, she did learn from the Coven
and Giles early on and before the season. The power is part of her.
Everything's connected. And so on. What the season seems to focus on is
how Willow is scared to use the power and is pushed to get back on that
horse. Indeed, living with the power seems to center on actually using it
in order to be liberated. The Tara story isn't just about living without
her. I think it's about being released from her restraints - mainly the
restraint from using magic. Remember that the First's primary ploy in CWDP
was to reinforce Willow's commitment to Tara not to use the magiks. And
Kennedy's primary function with regard to Willow is to push her to use her
power.

I think the show pretty much adopted the stance that Willow doesn't really
have a problem with power anymore. Maybe she learned her lesson. Maybe the
Coven's dose of humanizing magic really transformed her. Maybe the
circumstances of Tara's death created an aberrant result. Maybe the balance
she had is who she is and shall always be - a balance that's actually mainly
good. Maybe some combination of that and other influences. I don't know.
But whatever it is, the problem they actually deal with this season is
Willow's shyness from grasping her power. I'm not sure the story in S7 ever
wanted to go further than that - and that the big reveal was always going to
be how Tara was holding her back.


>> One of the defenses of Kennedy is that she's independent and won't allow
>> Willow to dominate her like with Tara and - sort of - Oz. I'm actually
>> moving the opposite direction in my thinking now. By the end of the
>> season
>> Kennedy is practically worshiping Willow. "You are a goddess."
>
> Gotta agree there. I'll add a reminder that someone like S4-Tara
> would let Willow dominate her, but late-S6-Tara, not so much. So I
> don't think it's an informative comparison to make when contrasting
> Willow's girlfriends. (Oz isn't really comparable, since Willow was
> only dabbling in the harder stuff when she was with him, and none of
> the characters had picked up on the destructive road she was
> skirting. More generally, he tended to know what to say to deflate
> Willow's attempts to wave her hand and fix things, but it's hard to
> say how things would have progressed and whether he would have let her
> lose control.)
>
>> For Kennedy, I think she's first hit with a sense of responsibility.
>> After
>> all, her kiss seemed to have provoked all the trouble. And then seeing
>> everybody else just let her go off alone - well, that can't be right.
>> And,
>> then, when she effectively saves Willow, well, damn! I think Kennedy
>> gets a
>> little like Xander in the early years when he thought of himself as
>> Buffy's
>> protector. It becomes kind of Kennedy's job to be with Willow all the
>> time
>> and stand up for her against any perceived slight.
>
> I see Kennedy as more of a fit for the defender role, as seen mostly
> in the big group argument scenes, than for the kite-string role, which
> plays like a scene written for Tara.

Kite-string. That's not ringing a bell for me. What are you referring to?



>> The Giles part feels worse in retrospect than it did first time. Now I
>> know
>> what it's leading to. But it doesn't necessarily have to. His outburst
>> really could stay as frustration at being on a different page and not
>> being
>> properly heard. There's a lot that could be done with that without
>> taking
>> it as far as they chose to do. At this point it's still largely the same
>> type of conflict Giles and Buffy have had since the start. So I'm not
>> inclined to penalize this episode quite so much.
>
> As you say elsewhere, the end of S7 is, for whatever reason, all about
> getting everyone into fights and picking between two camps.

come all you good workers
good news to you I'll tell
of how the good old union
has come in here to dwell

which side are you on boys?
which side are you on?

my daddy was a miner
he's now in the air and sun
he'll be with you fellow workers
until the battle's won

which side are you on boys?
which side are you on?

they say in Harlan County
there are no neutrals there
you'll either be a union man
or a thug for J. H. Claire

which side are you on boys?
which side are you on?

oh workers can you stand it?
oh tell me how you can
will you be a lousy scab
or will you be a man?

which side are you on boys?
which side are you on?

don't scab for the bosses
don't listen to their lies
poor folks ain't got a chance
unless they organize

which side are you on boys?
which side are you on?

On Apr 13, 10:35 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:20eb82a7-2734-4ff5-adeb-e97840938158@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Apr 12, 12:08 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
>
> >> Part of the problem with using that as a misdirect is that the issue of
> >> Willow living with the power strikes me as more -er- powerful than the
> >> issue
> >> of letting go of Tara. I know that there's a personal emotional element
> >> to
> >> the Tara question that the more abstract power issue lacks. But come on,
> >> even Willow understands (when she thinks about it) that she has to let go
> >> some day - and the guilt along with it. Living with the power, however,
> >> is
> >> a genuine mystery that never really does get effectively addressed.
> >> Unless
> >> you think that white eyes are better than black eyes is good enough.
>
> > It's not really an either-or question, since the show feels it needs
> > to address both topics, separately. Living without Tara gets covered
> > here. Living with what she can do is supposed to be this background
> > thing running through S7 as it weighs on her, and she slowly learns to
> > live with it, day by day. In theory. Actually, what happens is that
> > the series runs out of story for Willow around the time of "Bring On
> > The Night" and then slaps a few protentious lines in the last couple
> > episodes and gives her white eyes instead of black. But as much as I
> > jump at the chance to find another flaw in TKIM, I don't think it's
> > this episode's "fault" that the rest of the season skimps on Willow's
> > arc.
>
> I'm not so sure. As incomplete as it seems, she did learn from the Coven
> and Giles early on and before the season. The power is part of her.
> Everything's connected. And so on. What the season seems to focus on is
> how Willow is scared to use the power and is pushed to get back on that
> horse. Indeed, living with the power seems to center on actually using it
> in order to be liberated. The Tara story isn't just about living without
> her. I think it's about being released from her restraints - mainly the
> restraint from using magic. Remember that the First's primary ploy in CWDP
> was to reinforce Willow's commitment to Tara not to use the magiks. And
> Kennedy's primary function with regard to Willow is to push her to use her
> power.
>
> I think the show pretty much adopted the stance that Willow doesn't really
> have a problem with power anymore. Maybe she learned her lesson. Maybe the
> Coven's dose of humanizing magic really transformed her. Maybe the
> circumstances of Tara's death created an aberrant result. Maybe the balance
> she had is who she is and shall always be - a balance that's actually mainly
> good. Maybe some combination of that and other influences. I don't know.
> But whatever it is, the problem they actually deal with this season is
> Willow's shyness from grasping her power. I'm not sure the story in S7 ever
> wanted to go further than that - and that the big reveal was always going to
> be how Tara was holding her back.

Okay, that's not something I'm seeing at all. Partly because tying
the story of this particular episode with the power theme... well, it
can be done, but it jumps through more philosophical hoops than I
think it can support And partly because this isn't the turning point
of that part of the arc, and only someone watching for subtle nuances
would really say that things are any different, magically speaking,
pre and post TKIM. Willow still won't-a at the beginning of GID,
still worries about whether or not she can use her power without it
taking her over through to the end of the show, etc. Tara isn't so
much as mentioned again after TKIM either, so if the episode has an
effect on Willow's magic story that the writers wanted to clearly
establish for the viewer, it'd be something additive from being with
Kennedy rather than something subtractive.

> >> For Kennedy, I think she's first hit with a sense of responsibility.
> >> After
> >> all, her kiss seemed to have provoked all the trouble. And then seeing
> >> everybody else just let her go off alone - well, that can't be right.
> >> And,
> >> then, when she effectively saves Willow, well, damn! I think Kennedy
> >> gets a
> >> little like Xander in the early years when he thought of himself as
> >> Buffy's
> >> protector. It becomes kind of Kennedy's job to be with Willow all the
> >> time
> >> and stand up for her against any perceived slight.
>
> > I see Kennedy as more of a fit for the defender role, as seen mostly
> > in the big group argument scenes, than for the kite-string role, which
> > plays like a scene written for Tara.
>
> Kite-string. That's not ringing a bell for me. What are you referring to?

One or another of their bedroom scenes toward the end of the series.
Possibly "Touched," but I don't care enough to look it up.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:902a6786-c142-4cbe-a08e-f647fa0266c0@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 13, 10:35 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:20eb82a7-2734-4ff5-adeb-e97840938158@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 12, 12:08 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> >> messagenews:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
>>
>> >> Part of the problem with using that as a misdirect is that the issue
>> >> of
>> >> Willow living with the power strikes me as more -er- powerful than the
>> >> issue
>> >> of letting go of Tara. I know that there's a personal emotional
>> >> element
>> >> to
>> >> the Tara question that the more abstract power issue lacks. But come
>> >> on,
>> >> even Willow understands (when she thinks about it) that she has to let
>> >> go
>> >> some day - and the guilt along with it. Living with the power,
>> >> however,
>> >> is
>> >> a genuine mystery that never really does get effectively addressed.
>> >> Unless
>> >> you think that white eyes are better than black eyes is good enough.
>>
>> > It's not really an either-or question, since the show feels it needs
>> > to address both topics, separately. Living without Tara gets covered
>> > here. Living with what she can do is supposed to be this background
>> > thing running through S7 as it weighs on her, and she slowly learns to
>> > live with it, day by day. In theory. Actually, what happens is that
>> > the series runs out of story for Willow around the time of "Bring On
>> > The Night" and then slaps a few protentious lines in the last couple
>> > episodes and gives her white eyes instead of black. But as much as I
>> > jump at the chance to find another flaw in TKIM, I don't think it's
>> > this episode's "fault" that the rest of the season skimps on Willow's
>> > arc.
>>
>> I'm not so sure. As incomplete as it seems, she did learn from the Coven
>> and Giles early on and before the season. The power is part of her.
>> Everything's connected. And so on. What the season seems to focus on is
>> how Willow is scared to use the power and is pushed to get back on that
>> horse. Indeed, living with the power seems to center on actually using
>> it
>> in order to be liberated. The Tara story isn't just about living without
>> her. I think it's about being released from her restraints - mainly the
>> restraint from using magic. Remember that the First's primary ploy in
>> CWDP
>> was to reinforce Willow's commitment to Tara not to use the magiks. And
>> Kennedy's primary function with regard to Willow is to push her to use
>> her
>> power.
>>
>> I think the show pretty much adopted the stance that Willow doesn't
>> really
>> have a problem with power anymore. Maybe she learned her lesson. Maybe
>> the
>> Coven's dose of humanizing magic really transformed her. Maybe the
>> circumstances of Tara's death created an aberrant result. Maybe the
>> balance
>> she had is who she is and shall always be - a balance that's actually
>> mainly
>> good. Maybe some combination of that and other influences. I don't
>> know.
>> But whatever it is, the problem they actually deal with this season is
>> Willow's shyness from grasping her power. I'm not sure the story in S7
>> ever
>> wanted to go further than that - and that the big reveal was always going
>> to
>> be how Tara was holding her back.
>
> Okay, that's not something I'm seeing at all. Partly because tying
> the story of this particular episode with the power theme... well, it
> can be done, but it jumps through more philosophical hoops than I
> think it can support And partly because this isn't the turning point
> of that part of the arc, and only someone watching for subtle nuances
> would really say that things are any different, magically speaking,
> pre and post TKIM. Willow still won't-a at the beginning of GID,
> still worries about whether or not she can use her power without it
> taking her over through to the end of the show, etc. Tara isn't so
> much as mentioned again after TKIM either, so if the episode has an
> effect on Willow's magic story that the writers wanted to clearly
> establish for the viewer, it'd be something additive from being with
> Kennedy rather than something subtractive.

CWDP linked (reminded us) Tara to not using magic. A central difference
with Kennedy is that she encourages/pushes Willow to accept and use her full
power. Since they seem centered on Willow's resistance to using magic,
that's how I take the intent of this episode.

As for taking a couple episodes to manifest and not referring directly to
Tara, this isn't an epiphany. There's no conscious thought from Willow
that, oh, it was the memory of Tara stopping me. It's the removal of a
subconcious, emotionally charged block. She still has to get over the
trauma of the day and get out of the habit of restraint. Inertia and all.
But when the issue is forced in Get it Done, I think she's more ready than
she was before this episode.

I'm not saying it's the only block. She's scared of loosing control too.
She still needs to be pushed. I'm just suggesting that it was the hidden
element making it all that much harder.

Besides, what else would it be? Was it all just so she can have a new girl
toy? I'd think that at the least it would have to be speaking more broadly
to releasing herself from her past so that she can move foreward.

And I'm still left with the sense that the only other thing that the show
does to address living with her power is to get her back on the horse. This
is the only place that really looks back to her big trouble in S6 that
caused the problem. (Well, I suppose that SMTP did a little, but that seems
kind of tangential to her ongoing struggle.)

Hey, there's only so far I'll go defending the construct of this episode and
its fit into the season. I'm not thrilled with it. Just trying to give it
its chance.


>> > I see Kennedy as more of a fit for the defender role, as seen mostly
>> > in the big group argument scenes, than for the kite-string role, which
>> > plays like a scene written for Tara.
>>
>> Kite-string. That's not ringing a bell for me. What are you referring
>> to?
>
> One or another of their bedroom scenes toward the end of the series.
> Possibly "Touched," but I don't care enough to look it up.

OK. I can wait to be appalled.

BOS

One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:902a6786-c142-4cbe-a08e-f647fa0266c0@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 13, 10:35 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>>> messagenews:20eb82a7-2734-4ff5-adeb-e97840938158@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>> I see Kennedy as more of a fit for the defender role, as seen mostly
>>>> in the big group argument scenes, than for the kite-string role, which
>>>> plays like a scene written for Tara.
>>> Kite-string. That's not ringing a bell for me. What are you referring
>>> to?
>> One or another of their bedroom scenes toward the end of the series.
>> Possibly "Touched," but I don't care enough to look it up.
>
> OK. I can wait to be appalled.
>
> BOS

"Touched." (It's Willow who actually uses the "kite-string" reference
first, off Kennedy's reassurance that "You can float around, and I'll
tether you down.")

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

On Apr 14, 12:55 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:902a6786-c142-4cbe-a08e-f647fa0266c0@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Apr 13, 10:35 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:20eb82a7-2734-4ff5-adeb-e97840938158@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Apr 12, 12:08 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> >> messagenews:a1bad5f4-8477-4684-9270-0262824a8fd4@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
>
> >> >> Part of the problem with using that as a misdirect is that the issue
> >> >> of
> >> >> Willow living with the power strikes me as more -er- powerful than the
> >> >> issue
> >> >> of letting go of Tara. I know that there's a personal emotional
> >> >> element
> >> >> to
> >> >> the Tara question that the more abstract power issue lacks. But come
> >> >> on,
> >> >> even Willow understands (when she thinks about it) that she has to let
> >> >> go
> >> >> some day - and the guilt along with it. Living with the power,
> >> >> however,
> >> >> is
> >> >> a genuine mystery that never really does get effectively addressed.
> >> >> Unless
> >> >> you think that white eyes are better than black eyes is good enough.
>
> >> > It's not really an either-or question, since the show feels it needs
> >> > to address both topics, separately. Living without Tara gets covered
> >> > here. Living with what she can do is supposed to be this background
> >> > thing running through S7 as it weighs on her, and she slowly learns to
> >> > live with it, day by day. In theory. Actually, what happens is that
> >> > the series runs out of story for Willow around the time of "Bring On
> >> > The Night" and then slaps a few protentious lines in the last couple
> >> > episodes and gives her white eyes instead of black. But as much as I
> >> > jump at the chance to find another flaw in TKIM, I don't think it's
> >> > this episode's "fault" that the rest of the season skimps on Willow's
> >> > arc.
>
> >> I'm not so sure. As incomplete as it seems, she did learn from the Coven
> >> and Giles early on and before the season. The power is part of her.
> >> Everything's connected. And so on. What the season seems to focus on is
> >> how Willow is scared to use the power and is pushed to get back on that
> >> horse. Indeed, living with the power seems to center on actually using
> >> it
> >> in order to be liberated. The Tara story isn't just about living without
> >> her. I think it's about being released from her restraints - mainly the
> >> restraint from using magic. Remember that the First's primary ploy in
> >> CWDP
> >> was to reinforce Willow's commitment to Tara not to use the magiks. And
> >> Kennedy's primary function with regard to Willow is to push her to use
> >> her
> >> power.
>
> >> I think the show pretty much adopted the stance that Willow doesn't
> >> really
> >> have a problem with power anymore. Maybe she learned her lesson. Maybe
> >> the
> >> Coven's dose of humanizing magic really transformed her. Maybe the
> >> circumstances of Tara's death created an aberrant result. Maybe the
> >> balance
> >> she had is who she is and shall always be - a balance that's actually
> >> mainly
> >> good. Maybe some combination of that and other influences. I don't
> >> know.
> >> But whatever it is, the problem they actually deal with this season is
> >> Willow's shyness from grasping her power. I'm not sure the story in S7
> >> ever
> >> wanted to go further than that - and that the big reveal was always going
> >> to
> >> be how Tara was holding her back.
>
> > Okay, that's not something I'm seeing at all. Partly because tying
> > the story of this particular episode with the power theme... well, it
> > can be done, but it jumps through more philosophical hoops than I
> > think it can support And partly because this isn't the turning point
> > of that part of the arc, and only someone watching for subtle nuances
> > would really say that things are any different, magically speaking,
> > pre and post TKIM. Willow still won't-a at the beginning of GID,
> > still worries about whether or not she can use her power without it
> > taking her over through to the end of the show, etc. Tara isn't so
> > much as mentioned again after TKIM either, so if the episode has an
> > effect on Willow's magic story that the writers wanted to clearly
> > establish for the viewer, it'd be something additive from being with
> > Kennedy rather than something subtractive.
>
> CWDP linked (reminded us) Tara to not using magic. A central difference
> with Kennedy is that she encourages/pushes Willow to accept and use her full
> power. Since they seem centered on Willow's resistance to using magic,
> that's how I take the intent of this episode.
>
> As for taking a couple episodes to manifest and not referring directly to
> Tara, this isn't an epiphany. There's no conscious thought from Willow
> that, oh, it was the memory of Tara stopping me. It's the removal of a
> subconcious, emotionally charged block. She still has to get over the
> trauma of the day and get out of the habit of restraint. Inertia and all.
> But when the issue is forced in Get it Done, I think she's more ready than
> she was before this episode.

I don't see much of a difference in readiness.

> I'm not saying it's the only block. She's scared of loosing control too.
> She still needs to be pushed. I'm just suggesting that it was the hidden
> element making it all that much harder.
>
> Besides, what else would it be? Was it all just so she can have a new girl
> toy?

Basically, yes. Don't underestimate how important getting Willow
hooked up and out of "gay celibacy" (Joss's term) was to ME. That
shows up often enough in the comments from both the people who worked
on this episode and Joss's general reflections that I do in fact
believe that giving Willow a girlfriend was a major agenda of Season
Seven. If Joss is to believed, he (rather uncharactertistically)
wanted to bring back Tara, and creating a new character was the backup
plan.

I don't know whether you're right or not, but I'll say that if this
was really an attempt to make a big statement about Willow's relation
to power and to be a turning point in that arc, then I have even more
contempt for the episode than I did before. Fortunately (I guess) for
my opinion of TKIM, it doesn't emerge as a major point for me.

-AOQ

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:M7ydnfLG3YZUbJ_VnZ2dnUVZ_uevnZ2d@supernews.co m:

> CWDP linked (reminded us) Tara to not using magic. A central
> difference with Kennedy is that she encourages/pushes Willow to
> accept and use her full power. Since they seem centered on
> Willow's resistance to using magic, that's how I take the intent
> of this episode.
>
> As for taking a couple episodes to manifest and not referring
> directly to Tara, this isn't an epiphany. There's no conscious
> thought from Willow that, oh, it was the memory of Tara stopping
> me. It's the removal of a subconcious, emotionally charged
> block. She still has to get over the trauma of the day and get
> out of the habit of restraint. Inertia and all. But when the
> issue is forced in Get it Done, I think she's more ready than
> she was before this episode.
>
> I'm not saying it's the only block. She's scared of loosing
> control too. She still needs to be pushed. I'm just suggesting
> that it was the hidden element making it all that much harder.
>

I tend to have similar thoughts. I suspect that Willow's guilt
feelings related to Tara's death are tied up enough with her feelings
about magic that she can't (or at least it's a lot harder for her)
deal with the magic issues until she deals with the guilt issues.

There's also the point that Willow, like the other Scoobies has a
tendency to place emotional issues in the "to deal with later"
category. So unless something forces the guilt issue to surface,
Willow is likely to avoid dealing with it. And it's something she
needs to deal with.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

In article
<e9eebd93-9654-4a93-a1d2-a5a473dc6148@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> If Joss is to believed,

Now, you see, that's where you have still to learn Joss's almost
infinite capacity for bullshit...
--
Ready for blast off: http://spacecaptainsmith.com