A reminder: It's these threads' inner megalomaniac. They, uh, rebel
at serving coffee.

ANGEL
Season Four, Episode 12: "Calvary"
Writers: Jeffrey Bell and Steven S. DeKnight and Mere Smith
Director: Bill L. Norton

Finally, we enter my favorite part of the year, when setup turns to
payoff. "Calvary" of course ends with a big shocking reveal that
suddenly makes us see everything very differently, and which does hold
up among the ranks of surprise endings on re-watching. Before we get
there, credit also goes to the way the show comes up with a fairly
unexpected method for the inevitable release of Angelus from his
cage. I'm not quite as swept up by the play as I was originally
(hence the rating demotion), but still think it's paced pretty well
with its mix of violence, drama, and banter. Lilah, proudly self-
interested and amoral, is a great addition to the group dynamic,
particularly since she ****s with Wesley and Fred's heads just by
being there. A far better reluctant ally than Gwen was in that role
(and Gwen was pretty good in LDJ), although she'll arguably be
eclipsed by an even better guest star next time. I think I find Lilah
more intriguing a character than ever when she's divorced from her
usual role as W&H's representative. So of course, the evil show then
goes and kills her. So many things go wrong, and a good time is had
by all.
Rating: Good (down from Excellent)


Season Four, Episode 13: "Salvage"
Writer: David Fury
Director: Jefferson Kibbee

It seems a fair number of people adore "Salvage." I mean, Faith
busting out of prison! And the Beast gets killed! And Faith beating
up Connor! And Faith! It's certainly a pleasure to see a Slayer come
in just as the show is starting to run out of heroes to root for, and
immediately run into her limitations. Faith vs. Angel confrontations
are good things, and I do not stand with those who think that the
Slayer concept fits awkwardly into the allegedly more grown-up world
of ATS. This re-watching, though, I couldn't help but notice that the
show mostly seems to boil down to people hitting each other and things
going boom. There's not a whole lot of emotional impact. I
originally expressed my admiration for the part in which our favorite
dark Slayer does her best to boast about being a murder. I want more
of that. But there isn't more, since at heart, "Salvage" is a pretty
simple story whose big moments and reversals are almost all on the
surface. At least the surface is on the bombastic side.
Rating: Good


Season Four, Episode 14: "Release"
Writers: Steven S. DeKnight and Elizabeth Craft and Sarah Fain
Director: James A. Contner

We run into the opposite strengths and weaknesses here. "Release" is
a complex story. This is an episode that starts with Faith telling us
and Wes how quickly she heals, and then slowly uses the camera to show
us how much she has to heal from. It's quietly striking, and leads
beautifully into the loudly striking destruction of the innocent
shower wall. (Plus, naked Faith, woo.) This is also a story that
will incorporate a lot being done with subtle glances and the notion
of blame, Wesley fully throwing himself into the part of the dark
Watcher and Faith making the choice to follow his path against her
"best nature," and the image of Faith on the ground before Angel
again, this time begging to live. In short, this is some deep ****.
That's why it's so frustrating that the depiction doesn't always live
up to the potential, because although "Release" is pretty good, it
could've been "Orpheus"-good, if only the writing had been just a
little tighter. Especially at the end. The lengthy closing sequence
ought to be both explosive and resonant, but the violence is curbed in
favor of the near-endless clunky speeches into which the themes are
awkwardly twisted. (We've previously gone over the bit of
"incompleteness" caused by holding off on the last dose of revelations
and re-contextualizing until the first scene of "Orpheus." I still
say that it hurts the play of "Release" taken on its own with no
particular benefit for the benefit for the series taken as a whole.)
Elsewhere, Angel's invasion of the Hyperion is filmed and performed
very well, while his conversations with the Booming Evil Voice not so
much so. Special mention for one of the single least convincing uses
of a blue/green screen in Buffyverse history during the shower scene,
although it'll soon be topped by the end of "Sacrifice."
Rating: Good (up from Decent)


Season Four, Episode 15: "Orpheus"
Writer: Mere Smith
Director: Terrence O'Hara

Geez, what a flawed masterpiece. My adoration of the entire dream-
walk as well as every other scene with either Faith or Angel in it
knows few bounds. The dialogue sparkles, and we learn a lot about
Angel from finally filling in the last big gaps in his history. This
leads to Good Angel's stirring re-appearance and the cathartic triumph
as Faith makes one last, hardest choice and Angel gets to share his
epiphany with someone else and truly save them. In another thread, I
commented that this portion of Faith's arc completes her story in a
way that makes one wonder how one could have ever thought it was
complete (which I did) after "Sanctuary." That is truly satisfying.
Part of why I'll always think of Faith as an ATS character despite her
appearing on BTVS a lot more often; the heaviest lifting gets done on
this show, and her connection with Angel is richer, IMHO, than
anything either character ever has with Buffy. Which is quite a
standard to exceed. Hell, I'll throw in a few more superlative
comparisons. This part of the story is as good as "Consequences," and
only the tiniest of shades behind "Five By Five."

And on top of that, "Orpheus" throws in a BTVS crossover... and the
problems begin. I like the initial glee of Willow appearing at all,
and I like her interacting with Fred and trading notes on dark places
with Wesley. But her part of the story jars horribly with the way
she's being portrayed over on the other show (some people have
disputed the "horribly," but not the jarring). *And* it degenerates
into a big ridiculous magic-off in the middle of the sublime plot it's
influencing. *And* by making the soul able to fly straight to Angel
regardless of where anything is, Faith's gamble is rendered pointless,
and thus this subplot actually badly undermines the whole A-story. At
times like this "Orpheus" is awkward, clumsy, and genuinely not good.
So, guys, what do you think? How do you rate an episode that ****ing
nails the important stuff so brilliantly while fumbling the
surrounding details so often? I was finally forced to do the
comparison game, thinking of "Becoming (Part Two)," a show that annoys
the hell out of me at times but whose central bits are everything they
should be and more. Well, I like the two episodes just about
equally. Ergo, if "Becoming II" got upgraded to Excellent, so does
"Orpheus."
Rating: Excellent (up from Good)


Additional comments on S4D4: This disc has multiple episodes with
more than two credited writers, which seems unusual. Don't know if it
means much of anything.

The "Orpheus" commentary track was a bit of a disappointment for me.
With that much stuff in the show, there's no excuse for awkward
silences or generally being boring. Too bad they couldn't drag Mere
back into the ME warehouse for an hour; people tend to be more
articulate with their own episodes.

Okay, it's time for a big bit of hand-waving. We're told that
everything Pod!Cordy does was for the single-minded purpose of getting
Angel de-souled. Well, *why*? How does this contribute to arranging
for giving birth, especially since Good Angel returning doesn't seem
to make much of a difference? Why not just, oh, say, keep a low
profile? That's the one thing that Lord Usher, who spent a lot of
time trying to explain S4, had trouble with. [This is from an older
pre-AOQ post:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.angel/browse_frm/thread/607150b0537e0975/203c5c88bb7e24da?lnk=gst&q=lord+usher+fanwanks#203c5c88bb7e24da
He comes to a very different set of conclusions than I do, almost
universally, but I give him credit for at least trying to tackle
something my version can't explain away - why misguided peace-goddess
Jasmine manifests as cackling evil Pod!Cordy.]

I joked that I've been saving up as many fanwanking points as possible
so I can spend them all here. The best most people can come up with
is distraction. Keep everyone else running around in circles during
the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby. I'll go a step
further in the same direction. Rightly or wrongly, Jasmine has
fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's champion. One
she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then, he's the threat. She
knows that she can't hide the fact of her pregnancy from him forever.
And - here's the crux of this argument - she knows for an absolute
fact that he will find out quickly, and upon doing so, he will
recognize that the birth is an evil thing, and he will stop it. Make
it mystical instinct if necessary. Her solution is to do whatever it
takes to get him under her control, or, failing that, at least get him
out of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his sidekicks
up). Molding Connor into her champion and going into hiding is plan
B, which helps her get through the last few days, but only barely. It
wouldn't have been enough had she not kept Angel away until then.

This is fanwank, and clearly so. But what matters is that it's enough
to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally, get past what
would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my enjoyment of re-watching
Season Four. Any irritation left over when things don't fit can be
transferred to the Jasmine episodes, which I don't like so much,
without tainting my appreciation of the run leading to favorites like
"Orpheus" and "Inside Out."

Thoughts?

-AOQ


P.S. For those playing along at home, take note that I'm flipping the
order of the shows here, so the next Second Look thread will be ATS
S4D5.

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.
com:


>
>
> Season Four, Episode 15: "Orpheus"
> Writer: Mere Smith
> Director: Terrence O'Hara
>

>
> And on top of that, "Orpheus" throws in a BTVS crossover... and
> the problems begin. I like the initial glee of Willow appearing
> at all, and I like her interacting with Fred and trading notes
> on dark places with Wesley. But her part of the story jars
> horribly with the way she's being portrayed over on the other
> show (some people have disputed the "horribly," but not the
> jarring).

I'd quarrel with the term "jarring". It's perfectly natural for
someone to act differently in different circumstances. And the way
in which Willow acts differently feels natural to me, given how the
different circumstances interact with Willow's personality and
history.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

On Apr 14, 5:05 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote innews:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.
> com:
>
>
>
> > Season Four, Episode 15: "Orpheus"
> > Writer: Mere Smith
> > Director: Terrence O'Hara
>
> > And on top of that, "Orpheus" throws in a BTVS crossover... and
> > the problems begin. I like the initial glee of Willow appearing
> > at all, and I like her interacting with Fred and trading notes
> > on dark places with Wesley. But her part of the story jars
> > horribly with the way she's being portrayed over on the other
> > show (some people have disputed the "horribly," but not the
> > jarring).
>
> I'd quarrel with the term "jarring". It's perfectly natural for
> someone to act differently in different circumstances. And the way
> in which Willow acts differently feels natural to me, given how the
> different circumstances interact with Willow's personality and
> history.

Are the circumstances so different, though? I'm not talking so much
about the chipper tone of the interactions with the characters (some
of which works better than others; I like her trying to get Wesley to
joke and bonding with her fellow yammerer). I'm thinking more about
her reaction to circumstances which involve her being treated as a
great witch and her attitude in tossing around needed spells in
"Orpheus," compared to her reaction to circumstances which involve her
being treated as a great witch and her attitude while cautiously
casting needed spells back home.

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:a33e815c-5148-462d-84f8-3e2137f2f7f1@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.
com:

> On Apr 14, 5:05 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote
>> innews:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegr
>> oups. com:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Season Four, Episode 15: "Orpheus"
>> > Writer: Mere Smith
>> > Director: Terrence O'Hara
>>
>> > And on top of that, "Orpheus" throws in a BTVS crossover...
>> > and the problems begin. I like the initial glee of Willow
>> > appearing at all, and I like her interacting with Fred and
>> > trading notes on dark places with Wesley. But her part of
>> > the story jars horribly with the way she's being portrayed
>> > over on the other show (some people have disputed the
>> > "horribly," but not the jarring).
>>
>> I'd quarrel with the term "jarring". It's perfectly natural
>> for someone to act differently in different circumstances. And
>> the way in which Willow acts differently feels natural to me,
>> given how the different circumstances interact with Willow's
>> personality and history.
>
> Are the circumstances so different, though? I'm not talking so
> much about the chipper tone of the interactions with the
> characters (some of which works better than others; I like her
> trying to get Wesley to joke and bonding with her fellow
> yammerer). I'm thinking more about her reaction to
> circumstances which involve her being treated as a great witch
> and her attitude in tossing around needed spells in "Orpheus,"
> compared to her reaction to circumstances which involve her
> being treated as a great witch and her attitude while cautiously
> casting needed spells back home.

I think the circumstances are sufficiently different.

1) She made her decision back in Sunnydale. Now she's focused on
carrying out the decision. Willow can focus very well when she
wants to.

2) The Fang Gang NEEDS her to act confident and Willow likely
recognizes this.

3) Willow often acts more confident when Buffy isn't around.

4) The reensouling spell is a familiar one. As she notes, it's
the first major spell she ever did. The rest of the magic is just
Willow figuring out ways around obstacles and reacting to attacks.

5) Right after the spell, she's still in the afterglow of success.
Not something likely to be angst-inducing. When she has more time
to think, however, then she might start focusing on what could have
gone wrong.

6) There's also the possibility that simply being away from the
Hellmouth and away from the focus of the First's current attentions
is helpful.


--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:a33e815c-5148-462d-84f8-3e2137f2f7f1@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 14, 5:05 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote
>> innews:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.
>> com:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Season Four, Episode 15: "Orpheus"
>> > Writer: Mere Smith
>> > Director: Terrence O'Hara
>>
>> > And on top of that, "Orpheus" throws in a BTVS crossover... and
>> > the problems begin. I like the initial glee of Willow appearing
>> > at all, and I like her interacting with Fred and trading notes
>> > on dark places with Wesley. But her part of the story jars
>> > horribly with the way she's being portrayed over on the other
>> > show (some people have disputed the "horribly," but not the
>> > jarring).
>>
>> I'd quarrel with the term "jarring". It's perfectly natural for
>> someone to act differently in different circumstances. And the way
>> in which Willow acts differently feels natural to me, given how the
>> different circumstances interact with Willow's personality and
>> history.
>
> Are the circumstances so different, though? I'm not talking so much
> about the chipper tone of the interactions with the characters (some
> of which works better than others; I like her trying to get Wesley to
> joke and bonding with her fellow yammerer). I'm thinking more about
> her reaction to circumstances which involve her being treated as a
> great witch and her attitude in tossing around needed spells in
> "Orpheus," compared to her reaction to circumstances which involve her
> being treated as a great witch and her attitude while cautiously
> casting needed spells back home.

And you don't believe me that TKIM released a magic block. <hee>

Honestly, I just don't worry about it. It's a different series. It serves
itself first. What bothers me more is that Willow isn't well integrated
into AtS as a character on any terms. The scenes with her, while OK in
themselves, never quite feel like a natural part of AtS. I don't know how
to describe it any better than they feel a little awkward.

OBS

One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a33e815c-5148-462d-84f8-3e2137f2f7f1@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 14, 5:05 pm, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
>>> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote
>>> innews:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.
>>> com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Season Four, Episode 15: "Orpheus"
>>>> Writer: Mere Smith
>>>> Director: Terrence O'Hara
>>>> And on top of that, "Orpheus" throws in a BTVS crossover... and
>>>> the problems begin. I like the initial glee of Willow appearing
>>>> at all, and I like her interacting with Fred and trading notes
>>>> on dark places with Wesley. But her part of the story jars
>>>> horribly with the way she's being portrayed over on the other
>>>> show (some people have disputed the "horribly," but not the
>>>> jarring).
>>> I'd quarrel with the term "jarring". It's perfectly natural for
>>> someone to act differently in different circumstances. And the way
>>> in which Willow acts differently feels natural to me, given how the
>>> different circumstances interact with Willow's personality and
>>> history.
>> Are the circumstances so different, though? I'm not talking so much
>> about the chipper tone of the interactions with the characters (some
>> of which works better than others; I like her trying to get Wesley to
>> joke and bonding with her fellow yammerer). I'm thinking more about
>> her reaction to circumstances which involve her being treated as a
>> great witch and her attitude in tossing around needed spells in
>> "Orpheus," compared to her reaction to circumstances which involve her
>> being treated as a great witch and her attitude while cautiously
>> casting needed spells back home.
>
> And you don't believe me that TKIM released a magic block. <hee>
>
> Honestly, I just don't worry about it. It's a different series. It serves
> itself first. What bothers me more is that Willow isn't well integrated
> into AtS as a character on any terms. The scenes with her, while OK in
> themselves, never quite feel like a natural part of AtS. I don't know how
> to describe it any better than they feel a little awkward.
>

I know that Mere Smith, who wrote "Orpheus", has been described as a big
fan of Willow's, but I'd swear that she'd never *seen* the character,
judging by the dialogue.

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: It's these threads' inner megalomaniac. They, uh, rebel
> at serving coffee.
>
> ANGEL
> Season Four, Episode 12: "Calvary"

> Finally, we enter my favorite part of the year, when setup turns to
> payoff. "Calvary" of course ends with a big shocking reveal that
> suddenly makes us see everything very differently, and which does hold
> up among the ranks of surprise endings on re-watching. Before we get
> there, credit also goes to the way the show comes up with a fairly
> unexpected method for the inevitable release of Angelus from his
> cage. I'm not quite as swept up by the play as I was originally
> (hence the rating demotion), but still think it's paced pretty well
> with its mix of violence, drama, and banter. Lilah, proudly self-
> interested and amoral, is a great addition to the group dynamic,
> particularly since she ****s with Wesley and Fred's heads just by
> being there. A far better reluctant ally than Gwen was in that role
> (and Gwen was pretty good in LDJ), although she'll arguably be
> eclipsed by an even better guest star next time. I think I find Lilah
> more intriguing a character than ever when she's divorced from her
> usual role as W&H's representative. So of course, the evil show then
> goes and kills her. So many things go wrong, and a good time is had
> by all.
> Rating: Good (down from Excellent)

This episode has some limits. The way Angel ****s with people's heads,
while very good, still repeats much of the tone and content of the previous
episode. It can't achieve the same level of impact second time around. The
tension around an urgency to get Angel's soul back vs. counter efforts to
release him is a definite episode highlight - bringing in Lilah as a kind of
misdirect as threat and the big revelation at the end. But it also
highlights the question of why they created Angelus at all. (And the
question becomes even less easy if you attribute Angelus's creation to
manipulation by Cordy/Jasmine.) It's like AI charged up the hill.... and
then charged back down. The climax is awfully good, but not all that much
actually happens before it. Indeed, seeing this, I can't help but wonder if
this episode couldn't have been merged with the prior one to create a pretty
intense experience.

One little awkward moment is when the Beast gives the knife to an unseen
Cordelia. The Beast is extremely formal doing it. It's kind of a dull
scene, serving only to connect Cordelia to the Beast through the knife. But
what gets me about it now is how completely different it is to the give me
sugar scene in the next episode. This is not a creature with an intimate
relationship with Cordelia.

Those limits matter... a little. The greater impression is a very easy
episode to watch and be absorbed by. I'm also realizing in watching these
last two episodes that questioning why they created Angelus to begin with
highlights the simple facts shown - that they made a mistake. In an ill
conceived effort to get ahead of the game they fall behind instead, while
the AI team left behind is crumbling to boot. It makes for some good drama.

Special props from me for the mechanism of the reveal about Cordelia being
the killing of Lilah specifically. I haven't noticed people speak of the
moral ambiguity of what's going on, but just how "evil" is it for her to
kill the remaining leader of W&H LA? This was something I was very
conscious of on first view. While her behavior is screwed up on a number of
levels, it's not necessarily irredeemingly evil. Indeed, the primary target
of The Beast so far has been W&H. I like how the show does squeeze every
little bit of ambiguity out of the situation as possible. (Even if I don't
much like the characterization of Cordy/Jasmine.) This perspective works
even more so in retrospect since we learn that Jasmine perceives herself to
be a force of good.

I would rate the episode Good as well.

This is the last AtS episode not previously rated by me. Though I realized
that there are a few BtVS episodes to come that I haven't rated yet.



> Season Four, Episode 13: "Salvage"

> It seems a fair number of people adore "Salvage." I mean, Faith
> busting out of prison! And the Beast gets killed! And Faith beating
> up Connor! And Faith! It's certainly a pleasure to see a Slayer come
> in just as the show is starting to run out of heroes to root for, and
> immediately run into her limitations. Faith vs. Angel confrontations
> are good things, and I do not stand with those who think that the
> Slayer concept fits awkwardly into the allegedly more grown-up world
> of ATS. This re-watching, though, I couldn't help but notice that the
> show mostly seems to boil down to people hitting each other and things
> going boom. There's not a whole lot of emotional impact. I
> originally expressed my admiration for the part in which our favorite
> dark Slayer does her best to boast about being a murder. I want more
> of that. But there isn't more, since at heart, "Salvage" is a pretty
> simple story whose big moments and reversals are almost all on the
> surface. At least the surface is on the bombastic side.
> Rating: Good

I think what I like best about this episode is it concludes with Angelus
taking charge of the situation. For 3 episodes running, Angelus has
actually lived up to his reputation of being formidable, if not quite for
being blood thirsty. He's now undermined the unknown master (Jasmine) and
the AI team both quite effectively. He almost got Faith too - impressive
quick thinking by her barely preventing it. For a brief moment Angelus is a
genuine 3rd major player in the mix that could turn everything upside down.

The next best thing is Wesley talking to the ghost of Lilah - or actually
talking to his own imagination. Lilah pointing out that she must be
mouthing his thoughts is a cool and effective way of making her conclusion
convincing that Wesley was trying to rescue her. I also like how even with
Lilah dead, she remains an effective block to any Wesley/Fred connection.

The "big" event of Faith's return is also wonderful, but not as thoroughly
as the above. (I like her better in the next two episodes.) Here the idea
strikes me as just a little better than the reality. We mostly get Faith's
bravado - and perhaps a bit too much of a commanding attitude.

There's not enough Connor here - or in any of the surrounding episodes - for
him to really get in the way (plus we get his first knocking around by
Faith), but I'll note that just about every second he's on the screen annoys
me. As he does in all the episodes on this disk and going back some in the
prior disk. Just seeing his smug face gets me muttering. He never brings
down an episode's rating, but the cumulative affect of his presence is
wearing for me. I think that's worth noting because the string of Good
episode ratings around now can give the wrong impression. They're an
accurate and positive statement about the stirring action and pace that
leaves you wanting to see what happens next. But there are building
contrary elements. Like Connor. Another is the futility of it all, which
I'll come back to.

I rate this episode Good.


> Season Four, Episode 14: "Release"

> This is also a story that
> will incorporate a lot being done with subtle glances and the notion
> of blame, Wesley fully throwing himself into the part of the dark
> Watcher and Faith making the choice to follow his path against her
> "best nature," and the image of Faith on the ground before Angel
> again, this time begging to live. In short, this is some deep ****.

Dark watcher indeed. This is just about as low as Wesley gets for me. (I
don't mean that I disapprove of the story. I love the drama of it.) The
way he manipulates Faith by recalling her torture is rather appalling. (He
doesn't really care anymore. After having his throat slit and then
abandoned by his friends - well, the Faith history is comparatively trivial
to him.) The way he achieves his ends works, but how he does it... well,
I'll come back to this in Oprheus.

It's still good for Faith though. There's some nice setup for her story's
conclusion - having Angelus compare himself to her just as Angel once did.
And in this brief connection with Wesley, no matter how twisted it might be,
she gets her moment as a true Slayer. Not mentioned in story - and maybe
not thought of - is that Faith is effectively saving Angel here, which
partly matches a Buffy accomplishment, and quietly repays Buffy as well.
That ought to psychologically matter to Faith even if it's out of Buffy's
sight.


> That's why it's so frustrating that the depiction doesn't always live
> up to the potential, because although "Release" is pretty good, it
> could've been "Orpheus"-good, if only the writing had been just a
> little tighter. Especially at the end. The lengthy closing sequence
> ought to be both explosive and resonant, but the violence is curbed in
> favor of the near-endless clunky speeches into which the themes are
> awkwardly twisted. (We've previously gone over the bit of
> "incompleteness" caused by holding off on the last dose of revelations
> and re-contextualizing until the first scene of "Orpheus." I still
> say that it hurts the play of "Release" taken on its own with no
> particular benefit for the benefit for the series taken as a whole.)

I'll just repeat that in retrospect, many of the gaps in Release get filled
in by Orpheus, revealing more content than one gets on first view. I agree
that it's not the best way to do it, but it still improves the episode next
time around for me. The words and choreography of the fight makes more
sense. (I especially like how Faith's plea to live that Angelus will
triumphantly use as an invitation to vampirism is actually aimed to
encourage Angelus to do just that.) Wesley's missing follow-through with
Faith is now known. You seem to have raised the rating too. I don't know
if that's the reason.


> Elsewhere, Angel's invasion of the Hyperion is filmed and performed
> very well, while his conversations with the Booming Evil Voice not so
> much so.

That bothered me more this time around. It's pretty badly done isn't it.
Not too keen on the demon hangout either.


> Special mention for one of the single least convincing uses
> of a blue/green screen in Buffyverse history during the shower scene,
> although it'll soon be topped by the end of "Sacrifice."

What are you referring to?

> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

Also Good.



> Season Four, Episode 15: "Orpheus"

> Geez, what a flawed masterpiece. My adoration of the entire dream-
> walk as well as every other scene with either Faith or Angel in it
> knows few bounds. The dialogue sparkles, and we learn a lot about
> Angel from finally filling in the last big gaps in his history.

Other than WWII Angel.... OK, so maybe that wasn't a big gap. Only goes to
show how fantastic this episode's history is.


> This
> leads to Good Angel's stirring re-appearance and the cathartic triumph
> as Faith makes one last, hardest choice and Angel gets to share his
> epiphany with someone else and truly save them. In another thread, I
> commented that this portion of Faith's arc completes her story in a
> way that makes one wonder how one could have ever thought it was
> complete (which I did) after "Sanctuary." That is truly satisfying.

Yes.


> Part of why I'll always think of Faith as an ATS character despite her
> appearing on BTVS a lot more often; the heaviest lifting gets done on
> this show, and her connection with Angel is richer, IMHO, than
> anything either character ever has with Buffy. Which is quite a
> standard to exceed. Hell, I'll throw in a few more superlative
> comparisons. This part of the story is as good as "Consequences," and
> only the tiniest of shades behind "Five By Five."

That I think moves into hyperbole. This is a fantastic conclusion that
works exceptionally as knowledge about Faith. But the experience of
watching it - especially from a Faith centric perspective - is nowhere near
the other two IMO. (To the extent that it gets close is primarily because
of the Angel history parts.)


> And on top of that, "Orpheus" throws in a BTVS crossover... and the
> problems begin. I like the initial glee of Willow appearing at all,

As I said last time, there's a palpable sense of relief when she appears.
Maybe finally they're going to get ahead of the game. It seems to
positively affect everybody conscious other than Cordelia. Hell, even Faith
evidences a kind of distance awareness of what Willow's doing, and is
encouraged by it. That's probably the part of her appearance that works the
best, though a couple of the side conversations have their allure.


> and I like her interacting with Fred and trading notes on dark places
> with Wesley. But her part of the story jars horribly with the way
> she's being portrayed over on the other show (some people have
> disputed the "horribly," but not the jarring).

As I said elsewhere, she's not really part of this universe in any practical
sense. Her established role in the Buffyverse creates only a pretense of
established role here. And it shows.


> *And* it degenerates
> into a big ridiculous magic-off in the middle of the sublime plot it's
> influencing.

I like that part at least some. The action distracts a bit from her awkward
fit. On the other hand, she does sort of take over in a very BtVS kind of
way.


> *And* by making the soul able to fly straight to Angel
> regardless of where anything is, Faith's gamble is rendered pointless,
> and thus this subplot actually badly undermines the whole A-story.

I believe that's quite consistent with the way the original spell worked.
It may make Faith's gamble pointless, but not knowingly. Wesley didn't know
Fred had called Willow - probably didn't think of it. He and Faith acted in
good faith. I think that's good enough to support what's going on with
Angel and Faith. And, in a broader sense, it may also support the whole S4
story line where *everything* is pointless.

However, that said, let me point out something that could have been - and
actually was - thought out in advance. Why did Wesley push through the
orpheus solution to begin with? He and Faith weren't going to do that the
first time they went after Angelus. They were just going to capture Angelus
with the tranq gun (and probably more than a few punches to the head).
Sure, Faith came back a broken wreck from that. But not because of
Angelus!! That was the Beast that beat up Faith. Why do they embrace such
an extravagant solution now that the Beast is out of the way? If you recall
the conclusion of the fight in Release, Faith had Angelus beat until she
"let" Angelus take her.

Logically, that doesn't make sense to me. Unless... Unless it's Wesley's
state of mind that really leads to the extreme - a highly questionable
extreme. This goes to how low I feel that Wesley sank last episode. Doing
what's necessary has become so uncaring of collateral damage that he won't
even compromise from the extreme when a softer alternative is quite viable.

But all is not lost with Wesley. Unlike Release. Unlike Supersymmetry for
that matter. In Orpheus, Wesley starts showing remorse. Just a little. A
touch of doubt that it really was necessary. (Perhaps that's another reason
for Willow's solution not to have required Faith's sacrifice.) Last time
around, Scythe spoke of Wesley as a man who no longer has anything to care
about. Yet we can tell here that deep down he still does.


> At
> times like this "Orpheus" is awkward, clumsy, and genuinely not good.

Connor and Cordelia have clumsy aspects to. Aside from Connor generally
annoying me, here is also the period where Cordelia's manipulations start
being so clumsy, obvious and ill considered that one had difficulty
imagining Connor continuing to go with them. (Although I do at least like
the concept of Connor being ****ed with again by being sent to kill his
father. It's necessary for his greater story.)


> So, guys, what do you think? How do you rate an episode that ****ing
> nails the important stuff so brilliantly while fumbling the
> surrounding details so often? I was finally forced to do the
> comparison game, thinking of "Becoming (Part Two)," a show that annoys
> the hell out of me at times but whose central bits are everything they
> should be and more. Well, I like the two episodes just about
> equally. Ergo, if "Becoming II" got upgraded to Excellent, so does
> "Orpheus."
> Rating: Excellent (up from Good)

Well, I think this is the best episode of the season, so I guess Excellent
isn't such a struggle for me.


> Okay, it's time for a big bit of hand-waving. We're told that
> everything Pod!Cordy does was for the single-minded purpose of getting
> Angel de-souled. Well, *why*? How does this contribute to arranging
> for giving birth, especially since Good Angel returning doesn't seem
> to make much of a difference?

Good Angel figures out what's going on. Though that's mostly because of
becoming Angelus. So, Cordy appears to have made things worse with the
de-souling.

"You know Angelus is crucial to my plan." (Salvage) The plan never gets
explained. I suspect M.E. never successfully devised one.


> Why not just, oh, say, keep a low
> profile? That's the one thing that Lord Usher, who spent a lot of
> time trying to explain S4, had trouble with. [This is from an older
> pre-AOQ post:
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.angel/browse_frm/thread/607150b0537e0975/203c5c88bb7e24da?lnk=gst&q=lord+usher+fanwanks#203c5c88bb7e24da
> He comes to a very different set of conclusions than I do, almost
> universally, but I give him credit for at least trying to tackle
> something my version can't explain away - why misguided peace-goddess
> Jasmine manifests as cackling evil Pod!Cordy.]
>
> I joked that I've been saving up as many fanwanking points as possible
> so I can spend them all here. The best most people can come up with
> is distraction.

The best I have in-story is that Jasmine screwed up. First by not realizing
how strongly independent and effective Angelus would be as a free agent.
She assumed he would be easier to control. Then by not taking Willow into
account. She progressively lost control of the situation and fell back to
plan B - just barely successful. The unknown is what her original intent
was. But let me come back to that. I think you've underestimated the scope
of that question.


> Keep everyone else running around in circles during
> the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby. I'll go a step
> further in the same direction. Rightly or wrongly, Jasmine has
> fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's champion. One
> she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then, he's the threat. She
> knows that she can't hide the fact of her pregnancy from him forever.
> And - here's the crux of this argument - she knows for an absolute
> fact that he will find out quickly, and upon doing so, he will
> recognize that the birth is an evil thing, and he will stop it. Make
> it mystical instinct if necessary. Her solution is to do whatever it
> takes to get him under her control, or, failing that, at least get him
> out of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his sidekicks
> up). Molding Connor into her champion and going into hiding is plan
> B, which helps her get through the last few days, but only barely. It
> wouldn't have been enough had she not kept Angel away until then.

The pregnancy, as we know, is brief. Going low profile would have been as
simple as telling Angel that she needs a couple weeks to work this out on
her own, and then taking off to Death Valley or something (with Connor in
tow if she wants). It wouldn't be the first time that she's taken time off.


> This is fanwank, and clearly so. But what matters is that it's enough
> to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally, get past what
> would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my enjoyment of re-watching
> Season Four. Any irritation left over when things don't fit can be
> transferred to the Jasmine episodes, which I don't like so much,
> without tainting my appreciation of the run leading to favorites like
> "Orpheus" and "Inside Out."

OK. Here's the thing for me. It's not just Angel and Angelus. It's the
Beast and rain of fire and blotting out the sun too. What does *any* of it
accomplish other than alerting people that trouble's coming? The only thing
I know of is the destruction of W&H. I suppose that's kind of big, but that
only requires the Beast without the other flash/bang, and could be done with
one strike, without making the Beast a player in anything else at all.
Indeed, it would/should look like trouble W&H brewed up on its own rather
than trouble for Angel and team.

This is a core problem with the season for me. There's no purpose to most
of it until Jasmine finally is born. And then she proves to be more
annoying than just about anybody - maybe even Connor. It's a whole bunch of
noise signifying nothing. Even the Knights of Byzantium, who existed pretty
much to take the fates lined up against Buffy to the level of absurdity,
made more sense than the lead up to Jasmine.

OBS

"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:abqdnZ7PFrb_8ZjV4p2dnAA@giganews.com...

> I know that Mere Smith, who wrote "Orpheus", has been described as a big
> fan of Willow's, but I'd swear that she'd never *seen* the character,
> judging by the dialogue.

"Are you thinking what I'm thinking?" may be the least likely thing I could
imagine Willow saying to Cordelia ever.

Yeah, there are some odd moments during her visit. But I could kind of
imagine her chipper attitude in different times and circumstances. I think
it kind of works in her conversation with Wesley. It's a good way to let
drop what a bad girl she's been. And it's great at throwing Wesley back
into Sunnydale mode where the biggest deals for him are thoroughly
trivialized.

OBS

In article <CLydnSxTtuFR35jVnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@supernews.com>,
One Bit Shy <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>Honestly, I just don't worry about it. It's a different series. It serves
>itself first. What bothers me more is that Willow isn't well integrated
>into AtS as a character on any terms. The scenes with her, while OK in
>themselves, never quite feel like a natural part of AtS. I don't know how
>to describe it any better than they feel a little awkward.

The most jarring part about it is the Willow/Kennedy/Fred "triangle".

The scene where Willow abruptly dismisses Fred with `I'm seeing someone'
feels incredibly false (and confused) to me, especially since anyone, including
Amy Acker, has better chemistry with AH than what's-her-real-name Kennedy.

One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_hawthorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:abqdnZ7PFrb_8ZjV4p2dnAA@giganews.com...
>
>> I know that Mere Smith, who wrote "Orpheus", has been described as a big
>> fan of Willow's, but I'd swear that she'd never *seen* the character,
>> judging by the dialogue.
>
> "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?" may be the least likely thing I could
> imagine Willow saying to Cordelia ever.
>
> Yeah, there are some odd moments during her visit. But I could kind of
> imagine her chipper attitude in different times and circumstances. I think
> it kind of works in her conversation with Wesley.

Probably the closest scene that actually sounds like Willow.

> It's a good way to let
> drop what a bad girl she's been. And it's great at throwing Wesley back
> into Sunnydale mode where the biggest deals for him are thoroughly
> trivialized.

Yeah. Poor schmuck was *so* deflated... <snerk!>

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

Marc Espie wrote:
> In article <CLydnSxTtuFR35jVnZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@supernews.com>,
> One Bit Shy <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> Honestly, I just don't worry about it. It's a different series. It serves
>> itself first. What bothers me more is that Willow isn't well integrated
>> into AtS as a character on any terms. The scenes with her, while OK in
>> themselves, never quite feel like a natural part of AtS. I don't know how
>> to describe it any better than they feel a little awkward.
>
> The most jarring part about it is the Willow/Kennedy/Fred "triangle".
>
> The scene where Willow abruptly dismisses Fred with `I'm seeing someone'
> feels incredibly false (and confused) to me, especially since anyone, including
> Amy Acker, has better chemistry with AH than what's-her-real-name Kennedy.

Now, see, this is the kind of thing I don't get - regardless of what one
might think of the Kennedy/Willow pairing, I don't understand how anyone
can watch this episode and get "chemistry" out of any of it. Must be a
lot of wishful thinking going around, 'cause I can't see it. (I can see
where the two character *should* hit it off, but it would sure take a
different writer to make it work for me.)

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:fuKdnRXc_tLGFZjVnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@supernews.co m:

> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroup
> s.com...

>
>> Keep everyone else running around in circles during
>> the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby. I'll go a
>> step further in the same direction. Rightly or wrongly,
>> Jasmine has fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's
>> champion. One she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then,
>> he's the threat. She knows that she can't hide the fact of her
>> pregnancy from him forever. And - here's the crux of this
>> argument - she knows for an absolute fact that he will find out
>> quickly, and upon doing so, he will recognize that the birth is
>> an evil thing, and he will stop it. Make it mystical instinct
>> if necessary. Her solution is to do whatever it takes to get
>> him under her control, or, failing that, at least get him out
>> of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his
>> sidekicks up). Molding Connor into her champion and going into
>> hiding is plan B, which helps her get through the last few
>> days, but only barely. It wouldn't have been enough had she
>> not kept Angel away until then.
>
> The pregnancy, as we know, is brief. Going low profile would
> have been as simple as telling Angel that she needs a couple
> weeks to work this out on her own, and then taking off to Death
> Valley or something (with Connor in tow if she wants). It
> wouldn't be the first time that she's taken time off.

Some thoughts:

1) Perhaps the way that Jasmine sees the world is still influenced
by how Cordelia saw the world. Jasmine sees Angel as a great
champion who she must neutralize because Cordelia saw him as a great
champion--as a hero who would always find a way to help her.

(There is precedent for this sort of influence. Vampires, for
example. And the First Evil seems to be influenced by the
personality of the beings whose form it takes.)

2) Jasmine concluded, either from prophecies, or from divine
intuition that Angel would be a threat to her plans. So she decides
to eliminate the threat by turning him into Angelus.

(It is not clear whether this actually helped her in the long run.)

>
>> This is fanwank, and clearly so. But what matters is that it's
>> enough to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally,
>> get past what would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my
>> enjoyment of re-watching Season Four. Any irritation left over
>> when things don't fit can be transferred to the Jasmine
>> episodes, which I don't like so much, without tainting my
>> appreciation of the run leading to favorites like "Orpheus" and
>> "Inside Out."
>
> OK. Here's the thing for me. It's not just Angel and Angelus.
> It's the Beast and rain of fire and blotting out the sun too.
> What does *any* of it accomplish other than alerting people that
> trouble's coming?

Two things.

1) The Beast, etc. would have helped Jasmine appear as a Savior.
Various sorts of apocalyptic stuff happens. Then Jasmine appears and
makes it all go away. Even without her mind-control powers that
could get her an impressive following.

And while she didn't really NEED the extra boost that would have
given her, she might have wanted it as insurance in case her strength
didn't build as rapidly as she hoped.

2) In the shorter term, nothing short of apocalyptic events are
going to convince the Fang Gang that it's a good idea to bring out
Angelus.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

> The most jarring part about it is the Willow/Kennedy/Fred "triangle".
>
> The scene where Willow abruptly dismisses Fred with `I'm seeing someone'
> feels incredibly false (and confused) to me, especially since anyone, including
> Amy Acker, has better chemistry with AH than what's-her-real-name Kennedy.

About Fred...she sure goes through the romantic ringer in these
episodes, doesn't she? And much of it her own fault.
She's badly treated Wesley; for all her bravado about mending the
fences, she makes no attempt to personally see him (not even a 'thank
you' for the alcohol). She's looking down on him as bad and unsafe,
while praising Gunn as a white knight.
Sorry, Fred: Gunn kills someone. Now, she's seeing Wesley in a
different light while being wary of Gunn. After all, Wesley never
intended to kill Connor and it was all Holtz and Sanjan's fault
anyway! Better than murderer/patron Gunn, whom she avoids. She refuses
to consider making out with Wesley as an issue but sees Gunn's violent
reaction as one (in a black-and-white world, which seems to be Fred's
present view of things, wouldn't her actions label her as a slut?).
When Gunn ends their relationship, Fred barely makes a protest. She's
free for Wesley!
SORRY, FRED. Wesley had a sexual relationship with evil girl Lilah.
Now he's back to the 'unsafe' category. Oh well, time to rekindle
things with Gunn!
SORRY, FRED. Gunn's insecurities (catered by Fred) end any chance of a
reconciliation. Oh well. There's Willow. Maybe she can be friends with
her!
SORRY, FRED. Willow has another girl in mind (and she also flayed a
man, which would have be a major turn off if Fred knew).
Yes, I'm being hard on an emotionally and mentally unstable woman, but
I can't help feeling all these failures were somewhat justified. Or am
I wrong?

On Apr 16, 4:02 am, es...@lain.home (Marc Espie) wrote:
> In article <CLydnSxTtuFR35jVnZ2dnUVZ_uSgn...@supernews.com>,
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> >Honestly, I just don't worry about it. It's a different series. It serves
> >itself first. What bothers me more is that Willow isn't well integrated
> >into AtS as a character on any terms. The scenes with her, while OK in
> >themselves, never quite feel like a natural part of AtS. I don't know how
> >to describe it any better than they feel a little awkward.
>
> The most jarring part about it is the Willow/Kennedy/Fred "triangle".
>
> The scene where Willow abruptly dismisses Fred with `I'm seeing someone'
> feels incredibly false (and confused) to me, especially since anyone, including
> Amy Acker, has better chemistry with AH than what's-her-real-name Kennedy.

I like my approach for dealing with the premise of anyone being able
to "choose" Kennedy over Fred - remind yourself "hey, it's a fantasy
show."

-AOQ

On Apr 16, 12:02 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I think what I like best about this episode is it concludes with Angelus
> taking charge of the situation. For 3 episodes running, Angelus has
> actually lived up to his reputation of being formidable, if not quite for
> being blood thirsty. He's now undermined the unknown master (Jasmine) and
> the AI team both quite effectively. He almost got Faith too - impressive
> quick thinking by her barely preventing it. For a brief moment Angelus is a
> genuine 3rd major player in the mix that could turn everything upside down.

Adds to the chaos. And I'm always rooting for him whenever evil goes
up against evil, because he's an aspect of our main character - he
should be formidable. He shouldn't play second fiddle to a villain
called "the Beastmaster."

> There's not enough Connor here - or in any of the surrounding episodes - for
> him to really get in the way (plus we get his first knocking around by
> Faith), but I'll note that just about every second he's on the screen annoys
> me. As he does in all the episodes on this disk and going back some in the
> prior disk. Just seeing his smug face gets me muttering.

I simply don't have the visceral reaction to Connor that some do,
although I kinda understand it on an intellectual level at this point
in the series (not so much elsewhere). Fortunately, he tends to be at
his most annoying in episodes in which he's not central enough to be
more than a nagging background thing.

> > Season Four, Episode 14: "Release"
> > This is also a story that
> > will incorporate a lot being done with subtle glances and the notion
> > of blame, Wesley fully throwing himself into the part of the dark
> > Watcher and Faith making the choice to follow his path against her
> > "best nature," and the image of Faith on the ground before Angel
> > again, this time begging to live. In short, this is some deep ****.
>
> Dark watcher indeed. This is just about as low as Wesley gets for me. (I
> don't mean that I disapprove of the story. I love the drama of it.) The
> way he manipulates Faith by recalling her torture is rather appalling. (He
> doesn't really care anymore. After having his throat slit and then
> abandoned by his friends - well, the Faith history is comparatively trivial
> to him.) The way he achieves his ends works, but how he does it... well,
> I'll come back to this in Oprheus.
>
> It's still good for Faith though. There's some nice setup for her story's
> conclusion - having Angelus compare himself to her just as Angel once did.
> And in this brief connection with Wesley, no matter how twisted it might be,
> she gets her moment as a true Slayer.

There was a little bit of discussion last time about whether this is
the closest we get to a traditional Slayer/Watcher team, in all its
potency and all its mutual destructiveness. Here in L.A., so far
removed from that other TV show whose mythology it belongs to. It's
fascinating.

> I'll just repeat that in retrospect, many of the gaps in Release get filled
> in by Orpheus, revealing more content than one gets on first view. I agree
> that it's not the best way to do it, but it still improves the episode next
> time around for me [snip] You seem to have raised the rating too. I don't know
> if that's the reason.

Not really.

> > Special mention for one of the single least convincing uses
> > of a blue/green screen in Buffyverse history during the shower scene,
> > although it'll soon be topped by the end of "Sacrifice."
>
> What are you referring to?

Most of the falling water clearly isn't touching Faith, since it
exists in a dimension that she is not in. It's a little
embarrassing. Not quite as much so as when Angel first pops up in the
demon dimension and is a different brightness than everything else,
like in a cheap fake celebrity photo, but still bad.

> The dialogue sparkles, and we learn a lot about
> > Angel from finally filling in the last big gaps in his history.
>
> Other than WWII Angel.... OK, so maybe that wasn't a big gap. Only goes to
> show how fantastic this episode's history is.

I wondered a little bit about what Angel was like after first coming
to America, and spend a lot of time questioning out loud what finally
drove him into that alley. Angel's story was obviously incomplete;
now it's not. I can't say that I ever once, in any capacity pre- or
post-"Orpheus" thought to myself "hey, I really wonder what Angel was
up to during WWII. And while I'm thinking about this, the Initiative
were so interesting that it'd be nice to find out how they got
started. This is a tale that's demanding to be told!"

> Connor and Cordelia have clumsy aspects to. Aside from Connor generally
> annoying me, here is also the period where Cordelia's manipulations start
> being so clumsy, obvious and ill considered that one had difficulty
> imagining Connor continuing to go with them. (Although I do at least like
> the concept of Connor being ****ed with again by being sent to kill his
> father. It's necessary for his greater story.)

They're in a holding pattern in their scenes together for too long.
There's not enough story there to make it Connor's main arc for this
long.

> > Okay, it's time for a big bit of hand-waving. We're told that
>
> > everything Pod!Cordy does was for the single-minded purpose of getting
> > Angel de-souled. Well, *why*? How does this contribute to arranging
> > for giving birth, especially since Good Angel returning doesn't seem
> > to make much of a difference?

> > Why not just, oh, say, keep a low
> > profile?

> > I joked that I've been saving up as many fanwanking points as possible
> > so I can spend them all here. The best most people can come up with
> > is distraction.
>
> The best I have in-story is that Jasmine screwed up. First by not realizing
> how strongly independent and effective Angelus would be as a free agent.
> She assumed he would be easier to control. Then by not taking Willow into
> account. She progressively lost control of the situation and fell back to
> plan B - just barely successful. The unknown is what her original intent
> was. But let me come back to that. I think you've underestimated the scope
> of that question.

Well, that's almost neater than my version, innit? "She had an
elaborate plan that didn't work out; now, moving on..."

> > Keep everyone else running around in circles during
> > the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby. I'll go a step
> > further in the same direction. Rightly or wrongly, Jasmine has
> > fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's champion. One
> > she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then, he's the threat. She
> > knows that she can't hide the fact of her pregnancy from him forever.
> > And - here's the crux of this argument - she knows for an absolute
> > fact that he will find out quickly, and upon doing so, he will
> > recognize that the birth is an evil thing, and he will stop it. Make
> > it mystical instinct if necessary. Her solution is to do whatever it
> > takes to get him under her control, or, failing that, at least get him
> > out of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his sidekicks
> > up). Molding Connor into her champion and going into hiding is plan
> > B, which helps her get through the last few days, but only barely. It
> > wouldn't have been enough had she not kept Angel away until then.
>
> The pregnancy, as we know, is brief. Going low profile would have been as
> simple as telling Angel that she needs a couple weeks to work this out on
> her own, and then taking off to Death Valley or something (with Connor in
> tow if she wants). It wouldn't be the first time that she's taken time off.

This time it wouldn't work; the reason I'm trying to fanwank is that
this needs to be true (or Cordy needs to believe it, anyway) for the
story to make sense. He won't let her disappear entirely for too long
(in this case, the fact that she's been popping in and out might make
him less willing than ever to let her out of his extended sight), and
she won't be able to hide her pregnancy. Again, make it mystical
instinct if necessary - he'll feel it. Or instead run with Michael's
interesting premise that Angel is a central figure in Pod!Cordy's
world because of how the real Cordelia sees him.

> > This is fanwank, and clearly so. But what matters is that it's enough
> > to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally, get past what
> > would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my enjoyment of re-watching
> > Season Four. Any irritation left over when things don't fit can be
> > transferred to the Jasmine episodes, which I don't like so much,
> > without tainting my appreciation of the run leading to favorites like
> > "Orpheus" and "Inside Out."
>
> OK. Here's the thing for me. It's not just Angel and Angelus. It's the
> Beast and rain of fire and blotting out the sun too. What does *any* of it
> accomplish other than alerting people that trouble's coming? The only thing
> I know of is the destruction of W&H. I suppose that's kind of big, but that
> only requires the Beast without the other flash/bang, and could be done with
> one strike, without making the Beast a player in anything else at all.
> Indeed, it would/should look like trouble W&H brewed up on its own rather
> than trouble for Angel and team.

The characters conclude that all the early stuff - the rain of fire,
the sunblock, etc. - was orchestrated to let Cordelia lead the others
to de-soul Angel. Do we agree with them? We've already discussed the
weaknesses inherent in that plan as far as getting from point A to
point Angelus, but if we take its success as a given, the only
explanation still needed is the reason she's so obsessed with Angel.
Which is what I take my best crack at above.

Other possible rationalizations for the Beast, although not
particularly strong ones for me, come from the line about "birthing
pains" in SHP, and from the idea that it'll improve Jasmine's image if
she sends the Beast away (yeah, that's a real essential tool for
someone who can fill people with overwhelming love for her just by
being in the same room. Although as Michael points out, it could be a
backup for if her power doesn't grow as quickly as hoped).

> This is a core problem with the season for me. There's no purpose to most
> of it until Jasmine finally is born. And then she proves to be more
> annoying than just about anybody - maybe even Connor. It's a whole bunch of
> noise signifying nothing. Even the Knights of Byzantium, who existed pretty
> much to take the fates lined up against Buffy to the level of absurdity,
> made more sense than the lead up to Jasmine.

Okay, now here's where I'm at. One thing I've always tried to do, and
run into occassional resistance for doing, is treat the episodes as
individual building blocks that can be evaluated semi-autonomously on
the rubric of "is this entertaining television?" I do this because I
strongly believe that a good buildup isn't automatically negated by
what comes later, any more than a crappy sequel retroactively makes a
movie or book less good. The fact that something is an episode of a
TV series or a volume in a trilogy or whatever is only somewhat
relevant - it's still presented as a discrete piece. Here the fact
that it's not paid off properly doesn't undo the fact that there's
some great drama - something you obviously somewhat buy into given the
string of Goods and Excellents. If it wasn't solid work, then I'd be
more inclined to spend lots of viewing time saying "it feels like the
writers are making this up as the go along. Is this ever going to
make sense?" I would then enjoy these episodes less, and assign them
more "blame" for the unwieldiness of the arc. I don't, and that
includes re-watching. That's the difference that matters most to me.
(Incidentally, ATS4 compares favorably to BTVS7 in that regard, for
me.)

-AOQ

On Apr 16, 6:32 pm, angm...@hotmail.com wrote:

> About Fred...she sure goes through the romantic ringer in these
> episodes, doesn't she? And much of it her own fault.
> She's badly treated Wesley; for all her bravado about mending the
> fences, she makes no attempt to personally see him (not even a 'thank
> you' for the alcohol). She's looking down on him as bad and unsafe,
> while praising Gunn as a white knight.
> Sorry, Fred: Gunn kills someone. Now, she's seeing Wesley in a
> different light while being wary of Gunn. After all, Wesley never
> intended to kill Connor and it was all Holtz and Sanjan's fault
> anyway! Better than murderer/patron Gunn, whom she avoids. She refuses
> to consider making out with Wesley as an issue but sees Gunn's violent
> reaction as one (in a black-and-white world, which seems to be Fred's
> present view of things, wouldn't her actions label her as a slut?).
> When Gunn ends their relationship, Fred barely makes a protest. She's
> free for Wesley!
> SORRY, FRED. Wesley had a sexual relationship with evil girl Lilah.
> Now he's back to the 'unsafe' category. Oh well, time to rekindle
> things with Gunn!
> SORRY, FRED. Gunn's insecurities (catered by Fred) end any chance of a
> reconciliation. Oh well. There's Willow. Maybe she can be friends with
> her!
> SORRY, FRED. Willow has another girl in mind (and she also flayed a
> man, which would have be a major turn off if Fred knew).
> Yes, I'm being hard on an emotionally and mentally unstable woman, but
> I can't help feeling all these failures were somewhat justified. Or am
> I wrong?

I don't really agree. The reason no one happily falls in love is that
everyone's dysfunctional, not as a referndum on one particular
character. First of all, and most importantly, one needs to remember
how mutual the failure is in "Supersymmetry." The show draws very
heavy parallels between Gunn and Fred - check out a transcript. Each
imagines the other one to be a much different person than they really
are. Each takes it upon themself to provide unwanted "protection"
from the gray areas and dark places. "Only I can go there." They
both have this problem, and their relationship suffers for it.

After that, we mostly just read things differently. When Gunn ends
the relationship, Fred is accepting because she already basically knew
it was over - someone just had to pull the trigger. Her kiss with
Gunn in "Release" doesn't feel to me like she's crossing Wes off the
list and going back to him, so much as pining for a simpler time. Of
course, it's not like that anymore, for either of them. Finally, the
"I'm seeing someone" scene in "Orpheus" is just a silly joke, although
not a particularly funny one. I can't see any indication that it's
supposed to constitute any kind of traumatizing rejection for
Winifred.

-AOQ

"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
news:RYednU8KDPWuGpvVnZ2dnUVZ_oesnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:fuKdnRXc_tLGFZjVnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@supernews.co m:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroup
>> s.com...
>
>>
>>> Keep everyone else running around in circles during
>>> the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby. I'll go a
>>> step further in the same direction. Rightly or wrongly,
>>> Jasmine has fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's
>>> champion. One she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then,
>>> he's the threat. She knows that she can't hide the fact of her
>>> pregnancy from him forever. And - here's the crux of this
>>> argument - she knows for an absolute fact that he will find out
>>> quickly, and upon doing so, he will recognize that the birth is
>>> an evil thing, and he will stop it. Make it mystical instinct
>>> if necessary. Her solution is to do whatever it takes to get
>>> him under her control, or, failing that, at least get him out
>>> of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his
>>> sidekicks up). Molding Connor into her champion and going into
>>> hiding is plan B, which helps her get through the last few
>>> days, but only barely. It wouldn't have been enough had she
>>> not kept Angel away until then.
>>
>> The pregnancy, as we know, is brief. Going low profile would
>> have been as simple as telling Angel that she needs a couple
>> weeks to work this out on her own, and then taking off to Death
>> Valley or something (with Connor in tow if she wants). It
>> wouldn't be the first time that she's taken time off.
>
> Some thoughts:
>
> 1) Perhaps the way that Jasmine sees the world is still influenced
> by how Cordelia saw the world. Jasmine sees Angel as a great
> champion who she must neutralize because Cordelia saw him as a great
> champion--as a hero who would always find a way to help her.
>
> (There is precedent for this sort of influence. Vampires, for
> example. And the First Evil seems to be influenced by the
> personality of the beings whose form it takes.)

Illyria seemed to be heading towards a more interesting exploration of that.
I think you're right that it's something that the two series has always
explored to some extent. It goes back to Jesse in BtVS's second episode
defining that as a critical issue with vampires. And with The Pack, the
resulting creature very much brings into question what's a manifestation of
Xander and what's from the hyena. I'm not ill disposed to thinking along
those lines - especially since I think Illyria is constructed in part to be
a parallel to Jasmine.

But to my eyes it doesn't look like that's what's actually done. As
presented Jasmine seems to just play Cordelia to the extent necessary -
which, by the time she's with Connor alone isn't Cordy like at all. The
extent to which she actually acts like Cordy appears to me to be defined by
how much has been revealed first to the audience and then to team Angel.
Meanwhile, the plot by Jasmine begins immediately upon return of her
memory - Apocalypse Nowish is the next episode. By all appearances the
grand plan was worked out in advance in a fashion that's not really
distorted by Cordy logic and emotions.

That's not to say that Cordy logic didn't show up as the plan unfolded. But
all that does for me is continue to make this a hopeless mire to figure out.
The show seems to point everywhere and say nothing. My ultimate conclusion
is that sense is not what this is about. On the contrary, it's all supposed
to be a false exercise where nothing is real. Nothing is to be believed.
Nothing has meaning. Skip will claim that it's all been an illusion for
years. This particular exercise leads to Jasmine and the charade of her
shiny happy people. More broadly the season is focused through Connor as
the object of everything (sort of like Dawn was in BtVS S5). The primary
effect on him is the conclusion that everything is a lie. That he's just
some kind of tool for the people close to him to manipulate through
deception. The ultimate season conclusion is to make everything disappear
and replace it with a more likable replacement. Next season starts as if
the last two seasons pretty much didn't happen.

That's how far the show is willing to go with the notion that everything you
see is a facade. I really don't think there is or ever was a meaningful
plan with Angelus, Beast, rain of fire or darkened sun.

Back to the idea of a kind of personal influence by Cordy, one thing that I
think might have been neat - and it's sometimes semi-suggested - is for
Jasmine to feel some kind of personal connection to Angel herself. Maybe by
Cordy influence. Or perhaps a soft spot for her sort of "grandfather". She
does seem to act like Angel is special even after her birth. But I don't
think this actually gets pushed anymore than any other idea.


> 2) Jasmine concluded, either from prophecies, or from divine
> intuition that Angel would be a threat to her plans. So she decides
> to eliminate the threat by turning him into Angelus.

She could. But with the demonstrated readiness of this series to
incorporate prophecies into its stories, why wouldn't it show some of that
now?


> (It is not clear whether this actually helped her in the long run.)

Creating Angelus seems to have been the primary means to her discovery and
near destruction. Although creating the Beast comes in a close second.
After her birth, none of this seems relevant - except to the ongoing effect
upon Connor, who I think all of this is really aimed at.


>>> This is fanwank, and clearly so. But what matters is that it's
>>> enough to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally,
>>> get past what would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my
>>> enjoyment of re-watching Season Four. Any irritation left over
>>> when things don't fit can be transferred to the Jasmine
>>> episodes, which I don't like so much, without tainting my
>>> appreciation of the run leading to favorites like "Orpheus" and
>>> "Inside Out."
>>
>> OK. Here's the thing for me. It's not just Angel and Angelus.
>> It's the Beast and rain of fire and blotting out the sun too.
>> What does *any* of it accomplish other than alerting people that
>> trouble's coming?
>
> Two things.
>
> 1) The Beast, etc. would have helped Jasmine appear as a Savior.
> Various sorts of apocalyptic stuff happens. Then Jasmine appears and
> makes it all go away. Even without her mind-control powers that
> could get her an impressive following.
>
> And while she didn't really NEED the extra boost that would have
> given her, she might have wanted it as insurance in case her strength
> didn't build as rapidly as she hoped.

Maybe. Or maybe the Beast was just great in bed. I think there's about
equal evidence for that.


> 2) In the shorter term, nothing short of apocalyptic events are
> going to convince the Fang Gang that it's a good idea to bring out
> Angelus.

Which brings us full circle to Angelus being crucial to a plan without a
hint of an explanation.

Michael, I think your notions are fine - as good as I've seen on the
subject. I'm hardly shy myself about inferring a lot from little to no
evidence - seeking something consistent even if not directly pointed to.
One thing abut Joss shows that are generally to their credit is that they
try to avoid boring complicated explanations where leaving it to our
imagination works so much better.

It's just that these aren't tangential elements. The Beast, the rain of
fire, blotting out the sun & bringing back Angelus are THE central events of
the middle half of the season. Our heroes battle and nearly break
themselves upon them. Yet meaningful explanation is denied all of them.
They just happen. It all feels empty to me as a result.

The only explanation that actually works for me, though I don't consider it
an attribute, is that it's not supposed to be meaningful. Just as
everything this season is pretty much a lie. A bad dream literally to be
blotted out. When I look at how they use that to reset everything for S5, I
imagine alternate dream endings like returning to Angel at the bottom of the
sea having imagined the year in hallucination. Or maybe even returning all
the way to waking from his night with Darla. Why not? It's no more out
there than they went with.

OBS

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:72d1efbd-52b9-4685-92e9-65bcf725d2fa@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 16, 12:02 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> I think what I like best about this episode is it concludes with Angelus
>> taking charge of the situation. For 3 episodes running, Angelus has
>> actually lived up to his reputation of being formidable, if not quite for
>> being blood thirsty. He's now undermined the unknown master (Jasmine)
>> and
>> the AI team both quite effectively. He almost got Faith too - impressive
>> quick thinking by her barely preventing it. For a brief moment Angelus
>> is a
>> genuine 3rd major player in the mix that could turn everything upside
>> down.
>
> Adds to the chaos. And I'm always rooting for him whenever evil goes
> up against evil, because he's an aspect of our main character - he
> should be formidable. He shouldn't play second fiddle to a villain
> called "the Beastmaster."

I agree, though the perverse side of me can't help but note that "the
Beastmaster" would be Satan or something comparably godlike (like Jasmine).
The concept, the name and the apocalyptic deeds do tie into the religious
themes running through the background of the season. (I suppose that
thematic connection might be the only meaningful reason for the Beast and
his extravagant ways.)


>> There's not enough Connor here - or in any of the surrounding episodes -
>> for
>> him to really get in the way (plus we get his first knocking around by
>> Faith), but I'll note that just about every second he's on the screen
>> annoys
>> me. As he does in all the episodes on this disk and going back some in
>> the
>> prior disk. Just seeing his smug face gets me muttering.
>
> I simply don't have the visceral reaction to Connor that some do,
> although I kinda understand it on an intellectual level at this point
> in the series (not so much elsewhere). Fortunately, he tends to be at
> his most annoying in episodes in which he's not central enough to be
> more than a nagging background thing.

Hangover continues even after Jasmine appears, but at least it's heading for
a conclusion as things become a little more clearly about Connor. There are
some better acting opportunities too.


>> > Season Four, Episode 14: "Release"
>> > This is also a story that
>> > will incorporate a lot being done with subtle glances and the notion
>> > of blame, Wesley fully throwing himself into the part of the dark
>> > Watcher and Faith making the choice to follow his path against her
>> > "best nature," and the image of Faith on the ground before Angel
>> > again, this time begging to live. In short, this is some deep ****.
>>
>> Dark watcher indeed. This is just about as low as Wesley gets for me.
>> (I
>> don't mean that I disapprove of the story. I love the drama of it.) The
>> way he manipulates Faith by recalling her torture is rather appalling.
>> (He
>> doesn't really care anymore. After having his throat slit and then
>> abandoned by his friends - well, the Faith history is comparatively
>> trivial
>> to him.) The way he achieves his ends works, but how he does it... well,
>> I'll come back to this in Oprheus.
>>
>> It's still good for Faith though. There's some nice setup for her
>> story's
>> conclusion - having Angelus compare himself to her just as Angel once
>> did.
>> And in this brief connection with Wesley, no matter how twisted it might
>> be,
>> she gets her moment as a true Slayer.
>
> There was a little bit of discussion last time about whether this is
> the closest we get to a traditional Slayer/Watcher team, in all its
> potency and all its mutual destructiveness. Here in L.A., so far
> removed from that other TV show whose mythology it belongs to. It's
> fascinating.

I think it tilts to a more perverse side. Plus, saving a vampire isn't
exactly a traditional Slayer/Watcher objective. Helpless as a model might
point to something like this. But our models of traditional also include
Kendra and the earlier version of Wesley himself. That nuance probably
doesn't matter though. It's got to be a psychological release for both of
them no matter how twisted it is or isn't.


>> > Special mention for one of the single least convincing uses
>> > of a blue/green screen in Buffyverse history during the shower scene,
>> > although it'll soon be topped by the end of "Sacrifice."
>>
>> What are you referring to?
>
> Most of the falling water clearly isn't touching Faith, since it
> exists in a dimension that she is not in. It's a little
> embarrassing. Not quite as much so as when Angel first pops up in the
> demon dimension and is a different brightness than everything else,
> like in a cheap fake celebrity photo, but still bad.

Oh. I see what you mean. It's kind of odd, because she does get wet. I
wonder what it looks like without the spray.


>> > Okay, it's time for a big bit of hand-waving. We're told that
>>
>> > everything Pod!Cordy does was for the single-minded purpose of getting
>> > Angel de-souled. Well, *why*? How does this contribute to arranging
>> > for giving birth, especially since Good Angel returning doesn't seem
>> > to make much of a difference?
>
>> > Why not just, oh, say, keep a low
>> > profile?
>
>> > I joked that I've been saving up as many fanwanking points as possible
>> > so I can spend them all here. The best most people can come up with
>> > is distraction.
>>
>> The best I have in-story is that Jasmine screwed up. First by not
>> realizing
>> how strongly independent and effective Angelus would be as a free agent.
>> She assumed he would be easier to control. Then by not taking Willow
>> into
>> account. She progressively lost control of the situation and fell back
>> to
>> plan B - just barely successful. The unknown is what her original intent
>> was. But let me come back to that. I think you've underestimated the
>> scope
>> of that question.
>
> Well, that's almost neater than my version, innit? "She had an
> elaborate plan that didn't work out; now, moving on..."

That's pretty much it. Neater maybe, but satisfactory?


>> > Keep everyone else running around in circles during
>> > the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby. I'll go a step
>> > further in the same direction. Rightly or wrongly, Jasmine has
>> > fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's champion. One
>> > she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then, he's the threat. She
>> > knows that she can't hide the fact of her pregnancy from him forever.
>> > And - here's the crux of this argument - she knows for an absolute
>> > fact that he will find out quickly, and upon doing so, he will
>> > recognize that the birth is an evil thing, and he will stop it. Make
>> > it mystical instinct if necessary. Her solution is to do whatever it
>> > takes to get him under her control, or, failing that, at least get him
>> > out of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his sidekicks
>> > up). Molding Connor into her champion and going into hiding is plan
>> > B, which helps her get through the last few days, but only barely. It
>> > wouldn't have been enough had she not kept Angel away until then.
>>
>> The pregnancy, as we know, is brief. Going low profile would have been
>> as
>> simple as telling Angel that she needs a couple weeks to work this out on
>> her own, and then taking off to Death Valley or something (with Connor in
>> tow if she wants). It wouldn't be the first time that she's taken time
>> off.
>
> This time it wouldn't work; the reason I'm trying to fanwank is that
> this needs to be true (or Cordy needs to believe it, anyway) for the
> story to make sense. He won't let her disappear entirely for too long
> (in this case, the fact that she's been popping in and out might make
> him less willing than ever to let her out of his extended sight), and
> she won't be able to hide her pregnancy. Again, make it mystical
> instinct if necessary - he'll feel it. Or instead run with Michael's
> interesting premise that Angel is a central figure in Pod!Cordy's
> world because of how the real Cordelia sees him.

So release a murderous Angelus who's known to focus first on those close to
him. Nice solution.

I really don't have an objection to your idea or Michael's notions either.
But as I noted in response to him, this is an awfully big deal to leave with
the statement that he's crucial to Cordelia's plan, but with no hint as to
the plan.


>> > This is fanwank, and clearly so. But what matters is that it's enough
>> > to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally, get past what
>> > would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my enjoyment of re-watching
>> > Season Four. Any irritation left over when things don't fit can be
>> > transferred to the Jasmine episodes, which I don't like so much,
>> > without tainting my appreciation of the run leading to favorites like
>> > "Orpheus" and "Inside Out."
>>
>> OK. Here's the thing for me. It's not just Angel and Angelus. It's the
>> Beast and rain of fire and blotting out the sun too. What does *any* of
>> it
>> accomplish other than alerting people that trouble's coming? The only
>> thing
>> I know of is the destruction of W&H. I suppose that's kind of big, but
>> that
>> only requires the Beast without the other flash/bang, and could be done
>> with
>> one strike, without making the Beast a player in anything else at all.
>> Indeed, it would/should look like trouble W&H brewed up on its own rather
>> than trouble for Angel and team.
>
> The characters conclude that all the early stuff - the rain of fire,
> the sunblock, etc. - was orchestrated to let Cordelia lead the others
> to de-soul Angel. Do we agree with them? We've already discussed the
> weaknesses inherent in that plan as far as getting from point A to
> point Angelus, but if we take its success as a given, the only
> explanation still needed is the reason she's so obsessed with Angel.
> Which is what I take my best crack at above.

Accepting the first part as given is pretty big to swallow. Some we've
discussed. I also get the impression when Cordelia talks to the Beast that
what Angelus is crucial to then (after Angelus is created) is tied into
whatever the Beast is doing. That creates the circular logic that the Beast
is critical to Angelus who's critical to the Beast. Be that as it may, all
of it is pretty vague. We're mostly making stuff up because the show won't
tell us anything other than letting us think (mostly assume even here) that
it somehow has something to do with birthing Jasmine.


> Other possible rationalizations for the Beast, although not
> particularly strong ones for me, come from the line about "birthing
> pains" in SHP, and from the idea that it'll improve Jasmine's image if
> she sends the Beast away (yeah, that's a real essential tool for
> someone who can fill people with overwhelming love for her just by
> being in the same room. Although as Michael points out, it could be a
> backup for if her power doesn't grow as quickly as hoped).

Whatever. I'm sort of kidding when I suggest that maybe she just wanted
some beastly nookie while she was stuck in Cordy's body. But you know, the
show kind of tossed that idea out there too with the give me sugar scene.
Doesn't it feel like the show is just tossing everything against the wall
for the sake of confusion? I really don't think there's an answer.


>> This is a core problem with the season for me. There's no purpose to
>> most
>> of it until Jasmine finally is born. And then she proves to be more
>> annoying than just about anybody - maybe even Connor. It's a whole bunch
>> of
>> noise signifying nothing. Even the Knights of Byzantium, who existed
>> pretty
>> much to take the fates lined up against Buffy to the level of absurdity,
>> made more sense than the lead up to Jasmine.
>
> Okay, now here's where I'm at. One thing I've always tried to do, and
> run into occassional resistance for doing, is treat the episodes as
> individual building blocks that can be evaluated semi-autonomously on
> the rubric of "is this entertaining television?" I do this because I
> strongly believe that a good buildup isn't automatically negated by
> what comes later, any more than a crappy sequel retroactively makes a
> movie or book less good. The fact that something is an episode of a
> TV series or a volume in a trilogy or whatever is only somewhat
> relevant - it's still presented as a discrete piece. Here the fact
> that it's not paid off properly doesn't undo the fact that there's
> some great drama - something you obviously somewhat buy into given the
> string of Goods and Excellents. If it wasn't solid work, then I'd be
> more inclined to spend lots of viewing time saying "it feels like the
> writers are making this up as the go along. Is this ever going to
> make sense?"

When you watch a show like - say - Lost, then the interconnectedness of it
all is at least as much an attraction as the play of individual episodes.
For may viewers, a great deal more important. So much so, that weak
episodes by themselves can be salvaged by their contribution to the greater
whole.

Your point isn't invalid. It's just not the only force at work. Getting
lost in the setup may be why the payoff disappoints, for example. S4 of AtS
is the least episodic season of either AtS or BtVS in my opinion. Whether
it's intricately planned or made up as it goes along, the thing being
constructed is still something that's supposed to be an integrated season
long narrative. I find it nigh on impossible to watch each episode on its
own terms because each episode so heavily arises from the past and points to
the future.

If my premise is right about this season, then I think they actually achieve
the integration they're after. You can't believe anything. Everything is
fungible. Why Cordy/Jasmine wanted Angelus doesn't much matter because, as
Skip explains, Cordy's whole life doesn't matter, Jasmine's going to reset
the world to her liking anyway, until Angel resets it again to his liking.

There is no reality.

There are some abstractly interesting notions in that, but I find it an
empty experience in the end. Especially since the cap to it all is to throw
two seasons away so as to create a pretty disconnected and absurdly premised
season five.


> I would then enjoy these episodes less, and assign them
> more "blame" for the unwieldiness of the arc. I don't, and that
> includes re-watching. That's the difference that matters most to me.
> (Incidentally, ATS4 compares favorably to BTVS7 in that regard, for
> me.)

BtVS S7 hasn't fared very well for me on rewatch either. I'm probably most
critical of that season, which I consider to be the weakest of its seven
year run. It does have the virtue of a very satisfying conclusion to the
season and series though. And a few other attributes. AtS S4 has
attributes too. Not as many though. And only a partially satisfactory
ending.

OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:25OdnQ2-6IdJzZTVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@supernews.com:

> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:72d1efbd-52b9-4685-92e9-65bcf725d2fa@24g2000hsh.googlegroups
> .com...

>>
>> Adds to the chaos. And I'm always rooting for him whenever
>> evil goes up against evil, because he's an aspect of our main
>> character - he should be formidable. He shouldn't play second
>> fiddle to a villain called "the Beastmaster."
>
> I agree, though the perverse side of me can't help but note that
> "the Beastmaster" would be Satan or something comparably godlike
> (like Jasmine).

Either that or a blond quasi-Tarzan roaming the countryside with an
eagle, a tiger, and two ferrets...

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

In article <guSdnfy3L-rrXJTVnZ2dnUVZ_ournZ2d@comcast.com>,
Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote:

> "One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:25OdnQ2-6IdJzZTVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@supernews.com:
>
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:72d1efbd-52b9-4685-92e9-65bcf725d2fa@24g2000hsh.googlegroups
> > .com...
>
> >>
> >> Adds to the chaos. And I'm always rooting for him whenever
> >> evil goes up against evil, because he's an aspect of our main
> >> character - he should be formidable. He shouldn't play second
> >> fiddle to a villain called "the Beastmaster."
> >
> > I agree, though the perverse side of me can't help but note that
> > "the Beastmaster" would be Satan or something comparably godlike
> > (like Jasmine).
>
> Either that or a blond quasi-Tarzan roaming the countryside with an
> eagle, a tiger, and two ferrets...

beastmaster vs draculanimal

arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple

On Apr 19, 4:55 am, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote innews:25OdnQ2-6IdJzZTVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@supernews.com:
>
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:72d1efbd-52b9-4685-92e9-65bcf725d2fa@24g2000hsh.googlegroups
> > .com...
>
> >> Adds to the chaos.  And I'm always rooting for him whenever
> >> evil goes up against evil, because he's an aspect of our main
> >> character - he should be formidable.  He shouldn't play second
> >> fiddle to a villain called "the Beastmaster."
>
> > I agree, though the perverse side of me can't help but note that
> > "the Beastmaster" would be Satan or something comparably godlike
> > (like Jasmine).
>
> Either that or a blond quasi-Tarzan roaming the countryside with an
> eagle, a tiger, and two ferrets...

But then there'd be the risk of also incorporating an appalingly
scantily clad little boy.

-AOQ
~at the bad movie festival where I saw it, those close-ups of the kid
provoked the most horror, but the ferrets were more or less
universally beloved~

On Apr 18, 8:54 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:72d1efbd-52b9-4685-92e9-65bcf725d2fa@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Apr 16, 12:02 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:4cdb5302-bf6f-4392-a100-8bc04815235b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

> >> There's not enough Connor here - or in any of the surrounding episodes -
> >> for
> >> him to really get in the way (plus we get his first knocking around by
> >> Faith), but I'll note that just about every second he's on the screen
> >> annoys
> >> me.  As he does in all the episodes on this disk and going back some in
> >> the
> >> prior disk.  Just seeing his smug face gets me muttering.
>
> > I simply don't have the visceral reaction to Connor that some do,
> > although I kinda understand it on an intellectual level at this point
> > in the series (not so much elsewhere).  Fortunately, he tends to be at
> > his most annoying in episodes in which he's not central enough to be
> > more than a nagging background thing.
>
> Hangover continues even after Jasmine appears, but at least it's heading for
> a conclusion as things become a little more clearly about Connor.  Thereare
> some better acting opportunities too.

I've been impressed with Kartheiser as an actor, except for a few
moments during the Angelus period, and so have a few of the anti-
Connor commenters. It was a little vindicating seeing his new show do
so well (although he's again playing insufferably smug and self-
absorbed but somehow a little sympathetic).

> >> > I joked that I've been saving up as many fanwanking points as possible
> >> > so I can spend them all here.  The best most people can come up with
> >> > is distraction.
>
> >> The best I have in-story is that Jasmine screwed up.  First by not
> >> realizing
> >> how strongly independent and effective Angelus would be as a free agent..
> >> She assumed he would be easier to control.  Then by not taking Willow
> >> into
> >> account.  She progressively lost control of the situation and fell back
> >> to
> >> plan B - just barely successful.  The unknown is what her original intent
> >> was.  But let me come back to that.  I think you've underestimated the
> >> scope
> >> of that question.
>
> > Well, that's almost neater than my version, innit?  "She had an
> > elaborate plan that didn't work out; now, moving on..."
>
> That's pretty much it.  Neater maybe, but satisfactory?
>
> >> > Keep everyone else running around in circles during
> >> > the few weeks it takes to have herself as a baby.  I'll go a step
> >> > further in the same direction.  Rightly or wrongly, Jasmine has
> >> > fixated on Angel as her greatest enemy, the world's champion.  One
> >> > she's born, he'll be harmless, but until then, he's the threat.  She
> >> > knows that she can't hide the fact of her pregnancy from him forever.
> >> > And - here's the crux of this argument - she knows for an absolute
> >> > fact that he will find out quickly, and upon doing so, he will
> >> > recognize that the birth is an evil thing, and he will stop it.  Make
> >> > it mystical instinct if necessary.  Her solution is to do whatever it
> >> > takes to get him under her control, or, failing that, at least get him
> >> > out of the world-saving picture (in a way that also ties his sidekicks
> >> > up).  Molding Connor into her champion and going into hiding is plan
> >> > B, which helps her get through the last few days, but only barely.  It
> >> > wouldn't have been enough had she not kept Angel away until then.
>
> >> > This is fanwank, and clearly so.  But what matters is that it's enough
> >> > to satisfy my narrative sense and let me, personally, get past what
> >> > would otherwise be the biggest hiccup in my enjoyment of re-watching
> >> > Season Four.  Any irritation left over when things don't fit can be
> >> > transferred to the Jasmine episodes, which I don't like so much,
> >> > without tainting my appreciation of the run leading to favorites like
> >> > "Orpheus" and "Inside Out."
>
> >> OK.  Here's the thing for me.  It's not just Angel and Angelus.  It's the
> >> Beast and rain of fire and blotting out the sun too.  What does *any*of
> >> it
> >> accomplish other than alerting people that trouble's coming?  The only
> >> thing
> >> I know of is the destruction of W&H.  I suppose that's kind of big, but
> >> that
> >> only requires the Beast without the other flash/bang, and could be done
> >> with
> >> one strike, without making the Beast a player in anything else at all.
> >> Indeed, it would/should look like trouble W&H brewed up on its own rather
> >> than trouble for Angel and team.
>
> > The characters conclude that all the early stuff - the rain of fire,
> > the sunblock, etc. - was orchestrated to let Cordelia lead the others
> > to de-soul Angel.  Do we agree with them?  We've already discussed the
> > weaknesses inherent in that plan as far as getting from point A to
> > point Angelus, but if we take its success as a given, the only
> > explanation still needed is the reason she's so obsessed with Angel.
> > Which is what I take my best crack at above.
>
> Accepting the first part as given is pretty big to swallow.  Some we've
> discussed.  I also get the impression when Cordelia talks to the Beast that
> what Angelus is crucial to then (after Angelus is created) is tied into
> whatever the Beast is doing.  That creates the circular logic that the Beast
> is critical to Angelus who's critical to the Beast.  Be that as it may, all
> of it is pretty vague.  We're mostly making stuff up because the show won't
> tell us anything other than letting us think (mostly assume even here) that
> it somehow has something to do with birthing Jasmine.
>
> I'm sort of kidding when I suggest that maybe she just wanted
> some beastly nookie while she was stuck in Cordy's body.  But you know, the
> show kind of tossed that idea out there too with the give me sugar scene.
> Doesn't it feel like the show is just tossing everything against the wall
> for the sake of confusion?  I really don't think there's an answer.

That particular scene sticks out like... something that sticks out
inappropriately (I don't like the usual turn of phrase). I don't
really draw much beyond that except that a story this elaborate is
prone to accumulate some dead-ends and misfires.

With regard to your musing about nothing mattering and truth being
elusive, I resist it somewhat not because it doesn't make sense, but
just because it's unsatisfying. I enjoy the play of S4 more than you
do, so I don't want to settle for neater but unsatisfying. I'm fine
to throw that at the episodes I don't care about, or ocassionally try
to see that as a theme in how Connor percieves the world. For me,
that basically comes down to coming up with a reason for why Angel is
so important to Pod!Cordelia, and my bit of fanwanking lets me
accomplish that. Once that one ingredient is fitted into place, the
rest of the story really doesn't have enough gaps to irritate me too
badly.

> BtVS S7 hasn't fared very well for me on rewatch either.  I'm probably most
> critical of that season, which I consider to be the weakest of its seven
> year run.  It does have the virtue of a very satisfying conclusion to the
> season and series though.  And a few other attributes.  AtS S4 has
> attributes too.  Not as many though.  And only a partially satisfactory
> ending.

My highly scientific rating system says that "Home" is a better
episode than "Chosen," and I'm sticking with that.

-AOQ

Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
news:26cf5db2-a462-4fb7-abef-96c68a208957@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.
com:

> On Apr 19, 4:55 am, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
>> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote
>> innews:25OdnQ2-6IdJzZTVnZ2dnUVZ_u6
> dnZ2d@supernews.com:
>>
>> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:72d1efbd-52b9-4685-92e9-65bcf725d2fa@24g2000hsh.googlegrou
>> >ps
>> > .com...
>>
>> >> Adds to the chaos.  And I'm always rooting for him whenever
>> >> evil goes up against evil, because he's an aspect of our
>> >> main character - he should be formidable.  He shouldn't play
>> >> second fiddle to a villain called "the Beastmaster."
>>
>> > I agree, though the perverse side of me can't help but note
>> > that "the Beastmaster" would be Satan or something comparably
>> > godlike (like Jasmine).
>>
>> Either that or a blond quasi-Tarzan roaming the countryside
>> with an eagle, a tiger, and two ferrets...
>
> But then there'd be the risk of also incorporating an appalingly
> scantily clad little boy.
>

Not if you use the TV show version.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

Michael Ikeda <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in
news:dvadndacWtjn65fVnZ2dnUVZ_q6mnZ2d@comcast.com:

> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:26cf5db2-a462-4fb7-abef-96c68a208957
@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.
> com:
>
>> On Apr 19, 4:55 am, Michael Ikeda <mmik...@erols.com> wrote:
>>> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote
>>> innews:25OdnQ2-6IdJzZTVnZ2dnUVZ_u6
>> dnZ2d@supernews.com:
>>>
>>> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>> >news:72d1efbd-52b9-4685-92e9-65bcf725d2fa@
24g2000hsh.googlegrou
>>> >ps
>>> > .com...
>>>
>>> >> Adds to the chaos.  And I'm always rooting for him whenever
>>> >> evil goes up against evil, because he's an aspect of our
>>> >> main character - he should be formidable.  He shouldn't play
>>> >> second fiddle to a villain called "the Beastmaster."
>>>
>>> > I agree, though the perverse side of me can't help but note
>>> > that "the Beastmaster" would be Satan or something comparably
>>> > godlike (like Jasmine).
>>>
>>> Either that or a blond quasi-Tarzan roaming the countryside
>>> with an eagle, a tiger, and two ferrets...
>>
>> But then there'd be the risk of also incorporating an appalingly
>> scantily clad little boy.
>>
>
> Not if you use the TV show version.
>

I suppose I should specify the TV SERIES version.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling