The Lights of Zetar
The Plot:
- Scott falls in love with a beautiful lieutenant, whose body
and mind are taken over by a colony of aliens. (Tivo)

This is yet another of those third-season episodes which seems
to exist mostly because they had to do 24 episodes to fill out the third
season and that's that. I think this is the first time that the menace
of invading noncorporeal beings is defeated by letting one of the crew
be possessed -- in 'Return to Tomorrow' the noncorporeal beings aren't
specifically a menace, and the Medusan means only well -- which would
eventually get done so many times in 24th Century Trek it was almost a
rite of initiation.

I suppose to the extent this is anything it's a ghost story, and
you probably have to be in the mood for a ghost story to really
appreciate it. It's an episode which works better when you're watching
it late, in the dark, with a bit of a chill in the air, than it does in
the middle of a heat wave at the height of the mid-afternoon haze.

It's once again a Scotty Falls In Love episode, and his choices
seem to be as random as they ever were: according to Memory Alpha, the
web site, in earlier drafts they shared a technophilia which brought
them together, but here they don't seem to have all that much to like
about the other. In fact, the relationship looks a lot more like it's
Scott pursuing Romaine than Romaine particularly sharing the interest.
It does allow for some plot advantages: Scott has a reason to assure
Romaine that her visions don't mean anything and to not bother reporting
them, which keeps the plot from being too short-circuited, which he
wouldn't have if Romaine were just anyone who happened to be around.

However, it would be just as easily dramatically to have the
study of Romaine not make sense until sufficient study of the Lights
were done. There doesn't seem to have been any bad side effects from
Scott and Romaine covering up reporting, but there's no a priori reason
that it should have worked well other than that the regular cast did
have their contracts in order.

The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well it's hard
to see why it hadn't been mentioned already. It fits with Babel for
being worlds dedicated to specific and peaceful tasks.



Thoughts While Watching:
- The Enterprise is on its way to Memory Alpha, the Federation's
vastest Wiki.

- So they don't believe in distributed information sources?
You'd think that given how often catastrophes destroy one world or
another they'd want lots of copies of everything all over.

- Is Scott's romance really fitting material for the ship's log?

- A crane shot! This must be stock footage from the first
season.

- More use of the 'Where No Man Has Gone Before' music for the
Zetar cloud.

- ``What is that?''
CROW: Screensaver, dead ahead!

- And we get sparkling lights in a person's eyes for the
possession.

- And for once they try to *avoid* the mysterious anomaly.

- Romaine's stomach is rumbling. She hasn't eaten since lunch.

- Kirk's pretty quick to suppose the cloud was attacking rather
than just something mysterious that affects human beings. Could it be
he's gunshy ever since the galactic barrier turned his best friend into
a megalomaniac killer?

- Oh, the Lights have made Romaine obnoxious.

- Scott did a good job of staying at his post.

- Nice bit of idealism to have no shielding on Memory Alpha. Of
course, it would have been as easily dramatically to have there be
shields but they don't work on the Lights. The shields don't work later
on, after all.

- Uhura, anticipating orders is not what we have underlings for!

- Isn't that always the way? The moment all observers leave
your eyes start projecting impossible images.

- Memory Alpha Remastered has a nice toluene structure.

- Oh, they've got Norman's coordination panel at Memory Alpha.

- There's a 'central brain' to Memory Alpha. Probably this was
just meant to be the sort of 1950s and early 60s ideas of computers as
electronic brains, but the use of the slightly archaic term means we're
not committed to there being purely electronic or duotronic or
multitronic computers in the Trek era. Garfield and Judith
Reeves-Stevens would run with this in their novel _Memory Prime_ and set
up a repository featuring several actual 'synthetic consciousnesses'.
These silver eggheads, to borrow Fritz Leiber's term, are quite potent
and ingenious, but are also a touch prone to madness (at least one of
them even thought it had evaluated pi as a rational number). It's still
a neat novel even though it feels more like it fits with Diane Duane's
novels than the original show.

- Captain! It's the Regula One scientists!

- Oh, no! It's Lwaxana Troi and she's starving!

- Memory Alpha is given its own look -- much like the
Enterprise, but there's nothing in there that could really be taken for
an Enterprise component. It's a neat bit of design work.

- They remembered the Emergency Manual Monitor, I guess because
they paid for that set last year and they're going to use it.

- Spock figures natural conditions don't allow this to be a
storm, so it must be a life form. Well, why not?

- Scott doesn't believe in seeing into the future any more than
.... than he believes in mystics who can read minds.

- Evasive maneuvers: they never work, but they do pad the story
out a little bit.

- For all the trigger-happy reputation Kirk gets, he follows
pretty much the same procedure here that the by-reputation-gentle Picard
would: he tries to evade the cloud; then he tries to make contact and
explain why they shouldn't come in touch; then he fires a warning shot,
and only *then* does he attack directly.

- Now, granting they can't attack the Lights, why stand down
from red alert?

- 'The girl'? C'mon, Kirk, she's a graduate of the Academy.
Show some respect.

- McCoy's 'Steinman' analysis includes fingerprints, voice
analysis, and brain scans.

- Kirk hopes to see something from that brain-wave pattern?

- Spock has a sharp eye, although he's also got only tracks D
through H to consider, it appears.

- Gee. Not reporting strange anomalies has proven to be a bad
decision. And Scott's the one with decades of experience in outer
space.

- Guy in the hallway as they exit clearly started walking just
as the stagehands started swinging the door.

- Since when do they have cyan doors?

- Ooh, they overlaid New Lights on the old effects, which makes
things look rather the more convincing, actually.

- And so for the second time the possession of Star Fleet
officers by energy-based alien beings of unknown agendas is at least
dramatically necessary.

- ``All life was destroyed there long ago.'' Gee, might that be
consistent with their searching for millennia for a new home?

- Where did they come to figure the Zetars will be killed by
high enough pressures? Just luck?

- So, how many times is that Scott got killed in the line of
duty? Although once again, it didn't really count, not after the
commercial break.

- Pressure increasing by one atmosphere per second.

- Neat floating effect. They really pulled out all the
haunted-house illusions for this episode.

- So, the Zetar folks are giving up on their millennia-long
search because Mira's under 30 atmospheres of pressure for a minute or
two?

- ``Now we have all the time in the world.'' Except for the
series being cancelled. (Raising the question: why not keep Romaine
around, at least in dialogue, since maybe two or three mentions would
make her steady for the indefinite future of the Trek continuity?)

- The 'pliancy' of Romaine is mentioned. I don't remember that
being a particular peril beforehand. (Check that: no, in the briefing
when Scott's foretold to die her pliancy is mentioned, presumably to
explain why she's prime to have her brain taken over.)

- An Enterprise First: McCoy, Spock, and Scott in perfect
agreement. Kirk's getting mighty sarcastic about it.

In article <nebusj.1213073384@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>, nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:

| The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
| Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well it's hard
| to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
[...]
| - Nice bit of idealism to have no shielding on Memory Alpha.

I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you can
go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

Dan Lanciani wrote:

>I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
>once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
>non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you can
>go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.

That doesn't so much sound like an unintended consequence as the
designed purpose. You may argue with that purpose, but the
Federation does seem to expend time and treasure solving other
people's problems, (see the recent "John of Gideon,") this does
at least get the natives in on the effort, too. One could even
mention the plus of being able to learn about the other culture,
at least by the questions they ask, as a stay-at-home manner of
exploration, even though the Next Generation crew were amazed at
the idea in "The Nth Degree."

--
-Jack

> - Scott falls in love with a beautiful lieutenant, whose body
> and mind are taken over by a colony of aliens. (Tivo)

And proves yet again that his taste in women is both debatable and oft-
times tragic. And his romances are doomed.

> It's once again a Scotty Falls In Love episode, and his choices
> seem to be as random as they ever were: according to Memory Alpha, the
> web site, in earlier drafts they shared a technophilia which brought
> them together, but here they don't seem to have all that much to like
> about the other. In fact, the relationship looks a lot more like it's
> Scott pursuing Romaine than Romaine particularly sharing the interest.
> It does allow for some plot advantages: Scott has a reason to assure
> Romaine that her visions don't mean anything and to not bother reporting
> them, which keeps the plot from being too short-circuited, which he
> wouldn't have if Romaine were just anyone who happened to be around.

There was a reason?! ::blinks:: Mind, I haven't seen this ep in
forever, but when it comes to romance, reason + Scott = Does Not
Exist.


> - Is Scott's romance really fitting material for the ship's
log?

If I were him, I'd find that absurdly galling. "Ye don't see me
putting YOUR love-interests in the log!" On the other hand, given his
past attempts at romance, they usually ended up bad enough that if
there was going to be a log notation, it should be in the form of,
"Our chief engineer has fallen in love again. Reference prior log
entries to see why we're keeping sickbay on standby and maintaining a
yellow alert."

> - And we get sparkling lights in a person's eyes for the
> possession.

Servo: The contacts! They do nothing!

> - Isn't that always the way? The moment all observers leave
> your eyes start projecting impossible images.

Servo: Reference earlier riff.

> - 'The girl'? C'mon, Kirk, she's a graduate of the Academy.
> Show some respect.

Respect was the biggest thing missing from this episode.

> - Gee. Not reporting strange anomalies has proven to be a bad
> decision. And Scott's the one with decades of experience in outer
> space.

See: Common Sense and Romance: Why Scotty Can't Seem To Have Both at
the Same Time.

> - Where did they come to figure the Zetars will be killed by
> high enough pressures? Just luck?

Kirk pulled out the dartboard with random resolutions to debatable
problems.

> - So, how many times is that Scott got killed in the line of
> duty? Although once again, it didn't really count, not after the
> commercial break.

The only one to consistently survive the red shirt curse. Must give
the man marks for just outright refusing to die.

> - Pressure increasing by one atmosphere per second.

....

> - ``Now we have all the time in the world.'' Except for the
> series being cancelled. (Raising the question: why not keep Romaine
> around, at least in dialogue, since maybe two or three mentions would
> make her steady for the indefinite future of the Trek continuity?)

Because she really wasn't that great a character.


Overall, this episode has some many eyerolling moments that it's mind-
boggling. Just like a bunch of third season eps. Fun recap, though!

-Steff

In article <22us44tg4a24fpbbgkamsvepk5qgc0tb8u@4ax.com>, jackbohn@bright.net (Jack Bohn) writes:
| Dan Lanciani wrote:
|
| >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
| >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
| >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you can
| >go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
|
| That doesn't so much sound like an unintended consequence as the
| designed purpose. You may argue with that purpose,

I don't argue with the purpose (or even with an unintended consequence).
It's just that it doesn't seem to comport with the Federation's policy
of not sharing advanced technology with less advanced planets, at least
as that policy came to be understood in later years. I doubt you can
really separate science and technology well enough to make this work,
and the more advanced the Federation becomes the greater the leap such
a database would offer a population that had just achieved enough
technology to reach Memory Alpha on its own.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

In article <1348360@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

> In article <22us44tg4a24fpbbgkamsvepk5qgc0tb8u@4ax.com>, jackbohn@bright.net
> (Jack Bohn) writes:
> | Dan Lanciani wrote:
> |
> | >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
> | >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
> | >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you can
> | >go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
> |
> | That doesn't so much sound like an unintended consequence as the
> | designed purpose. You may argue with that purpose,
>
> I don't argue with the purpose (or even with an unintended consequence).
> It's just that it doesn't seem to comport with the Federation's policy
> of not sharing advanced technology with less advanced planets, at least
> as that policy came to be understood in later years. I doubt you can
> really separate science and technology well enough to make this work,
> and the more advanced the Federation becomes the greater the leap such
> a database would offer a population that had just achieved enough
> technology to reach Memory Alpha on its own.

Having interstellar space travel is usually considered to be the
criteria distinguishing "primitive" cultures that must be protected by
the Prime Directive and advanced cultures that they can share technology
with.

--
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***

In article <barmar-8338BC.01214811062008@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> In article <1348360@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
> ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>
> > In article <22us44tg4a24fpbbgkamsvepk5qgc0tb8u@4ax.com>,
> > jackbohn@bright.net
> > (Jack Bohn) writes:
> > | Dan Lanciani wrote:
> > |
> > | >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
> > | >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
> > | >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you can
> > | >go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
> > |
> > | That doesn't so much sound like an unintended consequence as the
> > | designed purpose. You may argue with that purpose,
> >
> > I don't argue with the purpose (or even with an unintended consequence).
> > It's just that it doesn't seem to comport with the Federation's policy
> > of not sharing advanced technology with less advanced planets, at least
> > as that policy came to be understood in later years. I doubt you can
> > really separate science and technology well enough to make this work,
> > and the more advanced the Federation becomes the greater the leap such
> > a database would offer a population that had just achieved enough
> > technology to reach Memory Alpha on its own.
>
> Having interstellar space travel is usually considered to be the
> criteria distinguishing "primitive" cultures that must be protected by
> the Prime Directive and advanced cultures that they can share technology
> with.

I've wondered why the Ellan of Troyis people qualified (if they had any
travel at all, it was intrasteller) while the Ekosians and Zeon pigs
didn't.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.

In article <1348357@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>, ddl@danlan.*com says...
> In article <nebusj.1213073384@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>, nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
>
> | The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
> | Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well it's hard
> | to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
> [...]
> | - Nice bit of idealism to have no shielding on Memory Alpha.
>
> I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
> once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
> non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you can
> go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.

If you know its there (and have a card).

In article <ANIM8Rfsk-68E666.00572411062008@news.west.cox.net>, ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net (Anim8rFSK) writes:
| In article <barmar-8338BC.01214811062008@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
| Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
|
| > In article <1348360@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
| > ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
| >
| > > In article <22us44tg4a24fpbbgkamsvepk5qgc0tb8u@4ax.com>,
| > > jackbohn@bright.net
| > > (Jack Bohn) writes:
| > > | Dan Lanciani wrote:
| > > |
| > > | >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
| > > | >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
| > > | >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you can
| > > | >go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
| > > |
| > > | That doesn't so much sound like an unintended consequence as the
| > > | designed purpose. You may argue with that purpose,
| > >
| > > I don't argue with the purpose (or even with an unintended consequence).
| > > It's just that it doesn't seem to comport with the Federation's policy
| > > of not sharing advanced technology with less advanced planets, at least
| > > as that policy came to be understood in later years. I doubt you can
| > > really separate science and technology well enough to make this work,
| > > and the more advanced the Federation becomes the greater the leap such
| > > a database would offer a population that had just achieved enough
| > > technology to reach Memory Alpha on its own.
| >
| > Having interstellar space travel is usually considered to be the
| > criteria distinguishing "primitive" cultures that must be protected by
| > the Prime Directive and advanced cultures that they can share technology
| > with.
|
| I've wondered why the Ellan of Troyis people qualified (if they had any
| travel at all, it was intrasteller) while the Ekosians and Zeon pigs
| didn't.

Qualified for what exactly? Elas and Troyius qualified for contact because
they were in a strategically interesting place at the border of Federation
and Klingon space. In TOS (even in season three) the prime directive took
second place to such concerns. They had space travel but, as Mr. Scott said,
even impulse engines must look pretty fast compared to their methods of
propulsion.

The obvious question, then, is what would have happened if Elaan had said
something like, ``let's stop by Memory Alpha to drop off the scientist I
brought along so we can upgrade our primitive engines to impulse and then
warp drives''? Somehow I don't think that would have gone over too well.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

In article <nebusj.1213073384@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>,
nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) said:

> - They remembered the Emergency Manual Monitor, I guess because
> they paid for that set last year and they're going to use it.

Which (season two) episode was that?

--
William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com>

In article <g32dqe$oid$1@panix2.panix.com>,
wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:

> In article <nebusj.1213073384@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>,
> nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) said:
>
> > - They remembered the Emergency Manual Monitor, I guess because
> > they paid for that set last year and they're going to use it.
>
> Which (season two) episode was that?

Mirror Mirror (although that wasn't the REAL Enteprise)

Having come back from the Mirror universe, Scotty liked the EMM so much
he had one built on the real ship in time for I, Mudd.

--
Star Trek 09:

No Shat, No Show.

In article <1348357@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>, ddl@danlan.*com wrote:
nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:

>| The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
>| Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well
>| it's hard to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
>
>I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
>once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
>non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you
>can go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.

Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
Kirk and crew help themselves?

--
It is simply breathtaking to watch the glee and abandon with which
the liberal media and the Angry Left have been attempting to turn
our military victory in Iraq into a second Vietnam quagmire. Too bad
for them, it's failing.

In article <8vCdna0SxogiLlnVnZ2dnUVZ_rjinZ2d@comcast.com>, weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) writes:
| In article <1348357@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>, ddl@danlan.*com wrote:
| nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
|
| >| The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
| >| Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well
| >| it's hard to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
| >
| >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
| >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
| >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you
| >can go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
|
| Did Memory Alpha contain technological records?

That's an interesting question. They said it had "the total cultural
history and scientific knowledge" of all Federation members. Where
do you draw the line between science and technology? Maybe it gave
you warp theory but didn't tell you how to build a practical warp
drive. Still, it had to useful and state-of-the-art (by some planets'
standards) else why would scientists be studying there?

| If so, why didn't
| Kirk and crew help themselves?

Presumably they already had access to Federation technology...

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

In article <8vCdna0SxogiLlnVnZ2dnUVZ_rjinZ2d@comcast.com>,
weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:

> In article <1348357@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>, ddl@danlan.*com wrote:
> nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
>
> >| The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
> >| Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well
> >| it's hard to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
> >
> >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
> >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
> >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you
> >can go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
>
> Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
> Kirk and crew help themselves?

Captain's log : star date 5725.3.
The Enterprise is en route to Memory Alpha.
It is a planetoid set up by the Federation as a central library...
containing the total cultural history and scientific knowledge...
of all planetary Federation members.


Presumably he could have anything he wanted for the asking.

--
Multiple root canals; hopped up on multiple pain drugs.

It's an explanation, not an excuse!

ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net wrote:
> weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:

>> Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
>> Kirk and crew help themselves?
>
>Captain's log : star date 5725.3.
>The Enterprise is en route to Memory Alpha.
>It is a planetoid set up by the Federation as a central library...
>containing the total cultural history and scientific knowledge...
>of all planetary Federation members.

So this wasn't the ep with the three glowing orbs who possesed Kirk,
Spock, and the babe-of-the-week?

--
It is simply breathtaking to watch the glee and abandon with which
the liberal media and the Angry Left have been attempting to turn
our military victory in Iraq into a second Vietnam quagmire. Too bad
for them, it's failing.

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:01:29 -0500, weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
wrote:

>ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net wrote:
>> weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:
>
>>> Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
>>> Kirk and crew help themselves?
>>
>>Captain's log : star date 5725.3.
>>The Enterprise is en route to Memory Alpha.
>>It is a planetoid set up by the Federation as a central library...
>>containing the total cultural history and scientific knowledge...
>>of all planetary Federation members.
>
>So this wasn't the ep with the three glowing orbs who possesed Kirk,
>Spock, and the babe-of-the-week?

No, that was "Return to Tomorrow" (one of those episode titles that
can't exactly claim to provide much of a clue as to the content).

Jerry Brown
--
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

<http://www.jwbrown.co.uk>

Jerry Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:01:29 -0500, weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
> wrote:
>
>> ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net wrote:
>>> weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:
>>>> Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
>>>> Kirk and crew help themselves?
>>> Captain's log : star date 5725.3.
>>> The Enterprise is en route to Memory Alpha.
>>> It is a planetoid set up by the Federation as a central library...
>>> containing the total cultural history and scientific knowledge...
>>> of all planetary Federation members.
>> So this wasn't the ep with the three glowing orbs who possesed Kirk,
>> Spock, and the babe-of-the-week?
>
> No, that was "Return to Tomorrow" (one of those episode titles that
> can't exactly claim to provide much of a clue as to the content).

Science fiction titles in general tend to have too many "days" in the
titles: "Return to Tomorrow," "Tomorrow is Yesterday," "All Our
Yesterdays," "Tomorrow is Tuesday," on and on.


--
Steven L.
Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

In article <VsidnUqfc92Um1jVnZ2dnUVZ_sbinZ2d@comcast.com>,
weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:

> ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net wrote:
> > weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:
>
> >> Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
> >> Kirk and crew help themselves?
> >
> >Captain's log : star date 5725.3.
> >The Enterprise is en route to Memory Alpha.
> >It is a planetoid set up by the Federation as a central library...
> >containing the total cultural history and scientific knowledge...
> >of all planetary Federation members.
>
> So this wasn't the ep with the three glowing orbs who possesed Kirk,
> Spock, and the babe-of-the-week?

That's "Return to Tomorrow"

I
Am
Sargon!

--
Multiple root canals; hopped up on multiple pain drugs.

It's an explanation, not an excuse!

In article <1348608@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

> In article <8vCdna0SxogiLlnVnZ2dnUVZ_rjinZ2d@comcast.com>, weberm@polaris.net
> (Ubiquitous) writes:
> | In article <1348357@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>, ddl@danlan.*com wrote:
> | nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
> |
> | >| The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
> | >| Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well
> | >| it's hard to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
> | >
> | >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
> | >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
> | >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you
> | >can go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
> |
> | Did Memory Alpha contain technological records?
>
> That's an interesting question. They said it had "the total cultural
> history and scientific knowledge" of all Federation members. Where
> do you draw the line between science and technology? Maybe it gave
> you warp theory but didn't tell you how to build a practical warp

Yeah, that's what I was thinking; theory without blueprints. Sort of
like Wiki.

> drive. Still, it had to useful and state-of-the-art (by some planets'
> standards) else why would scientists be studying there?

Do we know that they are? It's possible that the people are only there
preserving the knowledge. The only reference to scientists I see is:
"how many people are on Memory Alpha?
It varies with the number of scholars, researchers, and scientists...
from various Federation planets who are using the complex."

Of course the whole thing is silly; with almost instantaneous
communications, why would you travel there to study?

>
> | If so, why didn't
> | Kirk and crew help themselves?
>
> Presumably they already had access to Federation technology...

"When the library complex was assembled,
shielding was considered inappropriate to its totally academic purpose.
Since the information on the planet is available to everyone,
special protection was deemed unnecessary."

--
Multiple root canals; hopped up on multiple pain drugs.

It's an explanation, not an excuse!

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 08:55:49 -0700, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net>
wrote:

>In article <1348608@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
> ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>
>> In article <8vCdna0SxogiLlnVnZ2dnUVZ_rjinZ2d@comcast.com>, weberm@polaris.net
>> (Ubiquitous) writes:
>> | In article <1348357@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>, ddl@danlan.*com wrote:
>> | nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
>> |
>> | >| The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
>> | >| Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well
>> | >| it's hard to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
>> | >
>> | >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
>> | >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
>> | >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you
>> | >can go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
>> |
>> | Did Memory Alpha contain technological records?
>>
>> That's an interesting question. They said it had "the total cultural
>> history and scientific knowledge" of all Federation members. Where
>> do you draw the line between science and technology? Maybe it gave
>> you warp theory but didn't tell you how to build a practical warp
>
>Yeah, that's what I was thinking; theory without blueprints. Sort of
>like Wiki.
>
>> drive. Still, it had to useful and state-of-the-art (by some planets'
>> standards) else why would scientists be studying there?
>
>Do we know that they are? It's possible that the people are only there
>preserving the knowledge. The only reference to scientists I see is:
>"how many people are on Memory Alpha?
>It varies with the number of scholars, researchers, and scientists...
>from various Federation planets who are using the complex."
>
>Of course the whole thing is silly; with almost instantaneous
>communications, why would you travel there to study?
>

They didn't have almost instantaneous communications.

In article <1P2dnVBM9YDI2ljVnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Jerry Brown wrote:
> > On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:01:29 -0500, weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
> > wrote:
> >
> >> ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net wrote:
> >>> weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:
> >>>> Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
> >>>> Kirk and crew help themselves?
> >>> Captain's log : star date 5725.3.
> >>> The Enterprise is en route to Memory Alpha.
> >>> It is a planetoid set up by the Federation as a central library...
> >>> containing the total cultural history and scientific knowledge...
> >>> of all planetary Federation members.
> >> So this wasn't the ep with the three glowing orbs who possesed Kirk,
> >> Spock, and the babe-of-the-week?
> >
> > No, that was "Return to Tomorrow" (one of those episode titles that
> > can't exactly claim to provide much of a clue as to the content).
>
> Science fiction titles in general tend to have too many "days" in the
> titles: "Return to Tomorrow," "Tomorrow is Yesterday," "All Our
> Yesterdays," "Tomorrow is Tuesday," on and on.

Day of the Dove? Friday's Child? The Doomsday Machine?

--
Multiple root canals; hopped up on multiple pain drugs.

It's an explanation, not an excuse!

In article <ANIM8Rfsk-BF0574.08554908092008@news.west.cox.net>, ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net (Anim8rFSK) writes:
| In article <1348608@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
| ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
|
| > In article <8vCdna0SxogiLlnVnZ2dnUVZ_rjinZ2d@comcast.com>, weberm@polaris.net
| > (Ubiquitous) writes:
| > | In article <1348357@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>, ddl@danlan.*com wrote:
| > | nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
| > |
| > | >| The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
| > | >| Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well
| > | >| it's hard to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
| > | >
| > | >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
| > | >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from some
| > | >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you
| > | >can go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
| > |
| > | Did Memory Alpha contain technological records?
| >
| > That's an interesting question. They said it had "the total cultural
| > history and scientific knowledge" of all Federation members. Where
| > do you draw the line between science and technology? Maybe it gave
| > you warp theory but didn't tell you how to build a practical warp
|
| Yeah, that's what I was thinking; theory without blueprints. Sort of
| like Wiki.
|
| > drive. Still, it had to useful and state-of-the-art (by some planets'
| > standards) else why would scientists be studying there?
|
| Do we know that they are?

Another reasonable question.

| It's possible that the people are only there
| preserving the knowledge.

Perhaps. But I would argue that it probably doesn't change the result
of the analysis. Unless the facility is very new (and possibly even
if it is) the people there would likely be preserving knowledge that
is state-of-the-art (and beyond) by _some_ planets' standards. Unless
they constrain the scientific knowledge to that of the least advanced
Federation world (which would hardly fit Kirk's description) the problem
remains. And that doesn't even consider non-Federation worlds.

| The only reference to scientists I see is:
| "how many people are on Memory Alpha?
| It varies with the number of scholars, researchers, and scientists...
| from various Federation planets who are using the complex."
|
| Of course the whole thing is silly; with almost instantaneous
| communications, why would you travel there to study?

Well, we have instantaneous communications across the whole planet to
probably a better approximation than the Federation has it across
worlds and people here still go to universities for some reason.
Possibly a closer look at the social interactions on Memory Alpha in
a non-emergency situation would show that the real attraction is the
parties...

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On 8 Sep 2008 20:58:51 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

>| It's possible that the people are only there
>| preserving the knowledge.
>
>Perhaps. But I would argue that it probably doesn't change the result
>of the analysis. Unless the facility is very new (and possibly even
>if it is) the people there would likely be preserving knowledge that
>is state-of-the-art (and beyond) by _some_ planets' standards.

Well back in those days, the Federation didn't deny knowledge to its
memories, so what's the issue?

In article <1348610@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

> In article <ANIM8Rfsk-BF0574.08554908092008@news.west.cox.net>,
> ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net (Anim8rFSK) writes:
> | In article <1348608@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
> | ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
> |
> | > In article <8vCdna0SxogiLlnVnZ2dnUVZ_rjinZ2d@comcast.com>,
> | > weberm@polaris.net
> | > (Ubiquitous) writes:
> | > | In article <1348357@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>, ddl@danlan.*com wrote:
> | > | nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
> | > |
> | > | >| The episode did give us Memory Alpha, a fine Library of
> | > | >| Alexandria-like idea which fit into the Trek mythology so well
> | > | >| it's hard to see why it hadn't been mentioned already.
> | > | >
> | > | >I always found the concept of Memory Alpha problematic. It seems like
> | > | >once you have a warp-capable ship (which maybe you can borrow from
> | > | >some
> | > | >non-Federation race that doesn't believe in the prime directive) you
> | > | >can go to Memory Alpha and instantly upgrade your planet's science.
> | > |
> | > | Did Memory Alpha contain technological records?
> | >
> | > That's an interesting question. They said it had "the total cultural
> | > history and scientific knowledge" of all Federation members. Where
> | > do you draw the line between science and technology? Maybe it gave
> | > you warp theory but didn't tell you how to build a practical warp
> |
> | Yeah, that's what I was thinking; theory without blueprints. Sort of
> | like Wiki.
> |
> | > drive. Still, it had to useful and state-of-the-art (by some planets'
> | > standards) else why would scientists be studying there?
> |
> | Do we know that they are?
>
> Another reasonable question.
>
> | It's possible that the people are only there
> | preserving the knowledge.
>
> Perhaps. But I would argue that it probably doesn't change the result
> of the analysis. Unless the facility is very new (and possibly even
> if it is) the people there would likely be preserving knowledge that
> is state-of-the-art (and beyond) by _some_ planets' standards. Unless
> they constrain the scientific knowledge to that of the least advanced
> Federation world (which would hardly fit Kirk's description) the problem
> remains. And that doesn't even consider non-Federation worlds.

Yes, Kirk's 'free to all' statement is ambiguous at best. Free to the
Klingons?
>
> | The only reference to scientists I see is:
> | "how many people are on Memory Alpha?
> | It varies with the number of scholars, researchers, and scientists...
> | from various Federation planets who are using the complex."
> |
> | Of course the whole thing is silly; with almost instantaneous
> | communications, why would you travel there to study?
>
> Well, we have instantaneous communications across the whole planet to
> probably a better approximation than the Federation has it across
> worlds and people here still go to universities for some reason.

Yeah, but that's a 20 minute drive, not a trip of days, weeks, months.
And we don't have everything online. Yet.

> Possibly a closer look at the social interactions on Memory Alpha in
> a non-emergency situation would show that the real attraction is the
> parties...

heh

--
Multiple root canals; hopped up on multiple pain drugs.

It's an explanation, not an excuse!

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:46:08 GMT, David Johnston <david@block.net>
wrote:

>On 8 Sep 2008 20:58:51 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>
>>| It's possible that the people are only there
>>| preserving the knowledge.
>>
>>Perhaps. But I would argue that it probably doesn't change the result
>>of the analysis. Unless the facility is very new (and possibly even
>>if it is) the people there would likely be preserving knowledge that
>>is state-of-the-art (and beyond) by _some_ planets' standards.
>
>Well back in those days, the Federation didn't deny knowledge to its
>memories, so what's the issue?

To it's members I meant to say.

Anim8rFSK wrote:
> In article <1P2dnVBM9YDI2ljVnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> "Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Jerry Brown wrote:
>>> On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:01:29 -0500, weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net wrote:
>>>>> weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:
>>>>>> Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
>>>>>> Kirk and crew help themselves?
>>>>> Captain's log : star date 5725.3.
>>>>> The Enterprise is en route to Memory Alpha.
>>>>> It is a planetoid set up by the Federation as a central library...
>>>>> containing the total cultural history and scientific knowledge...
>>>>> of all planetary Federation members.
>>>> So this wasn't the ep with the three glowing orbs who possesed Kirk,
>>>> Spock, and the babe-of-the-week?
>>> No, that was "Return to Tomorrow" (one of those episode titles that
>>> can't exactly claim to provide much of a clue as to the content).
>> Science fiction titles in general tend to have too many "days" in the
>> titles: "Return to Tomorrow," "Tomorrow is Yesterday," "All Our
>> Yesterdays," "Tomorrow is Tuesday," on and on.
>
> Day of the Dove? Friday's Child? The Doomsday Machine?

Yep, if you want to go beyond Star Trek to other SF/fantasy, there's

The DAY the Earth Stood Still
The DAY the Earth Caught Fire
DAY of the Triffids
The DAY After
The DAY After TOMORROW
Independence DAY
It Happened TOMORROW
Sky Captain and the World of TOMORROW


--
Steven L.
Email: sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Steven L. <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Anim8rFSK wrote:
>> In article <1P2dnVBM9YDI2ljVnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>> "Steven L." <sdlitvin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jerry Brown wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 06:01:29 -0500, weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ANIM8Rfsk@cox.net wrote:
>>>>>> weberm@polaris.net (Ubiquitous) wrote:
>>>>>>> Did Memory Alpha contain technological records? If so, why didn't
>>>>>>> Kirk and crew help themselves?
>>>>>> Captain's log : star date 5725.3.
>>>>>> The Enterprise is en route to Memory Alpha.
>>>>>> It is a planetoid set up by the Federation as a central library...
>>>>>> containing the total cultural history and scientific knowledge...
>>>>>> of all planetary Federation members.
>>>>> So this wasn't the ep with the three glowing orbs who possesed Kirk,
>>>>> Spock, and the babe-of-the-week?
>>>> No, that was "Return to Tomorrow" (one of those episode titles that
>>>> can't exactly claim to provide much of a clue as to the content).
>>> Science fiction titles in general tend to have too many "days" in the
>>> titles: "Return to Tomorrow," "Tomorrow is Yesterday," "All Our
>>> Yesterdays," "Tomorrow is Tuesday," on and on.
>>
>> Day of the Dove? Friday's Child? The Doomsday Machine?
>
>Yep, if you want to go beyond Star Trek to other SF/fantasy, there's
>
>The DAY the Earth Stood Still
>The DAY the Earth Caught Fire

It really did catch fire; good flick.

>DAY of the Triffids
>The DAY After
>The DAY After TOMORROW
>Independence DAY
>It Happened TOMORROW
>Sky Captain and the World of TOMORROW