1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working together.
At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For example, people commit
crimes because the system needs criminals; otherwise there would be no
prisons, no law enforcement jobs, etc.

2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be class against
class (as in Marxism and some forms of conservatism); ethnic group or
castes fighting it out; or family against family.

3) Society is continually being made and remade by people's reactions
to what they think other people's words and actions mean.

4) There are no societies; there are only individuals. Nothing has
ever been accomplished by any group, every achievement is due to an
individual.

--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Futures http://clerkfuturist.wordpress.com
mirror 1: http://dsgood.insanejournal.com
mirror 2: http://dsgood.wordpress.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood

On 11 Jun 2008 04:45:22 GMT, Dan Goodman
<dsgood@iphouse.com> wrote in
<news:484f5861$0$96657$804603d3@auth.newsreader.iph ouse.com>
in rec.arts.sf.misc:

> 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working
> together. At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For
> example, people commit crimes because the system needs
> criminals; otherwise there would be no prisons, no law
> enforcement jobs, etc.

> 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be
> class against class (as in Marxism and some forms of
> conservatism); ethnic group or castes fighting it out; or
> family against family.

> 3) Society is continually being made and remade by
> people's reactions to what they think other people's
> words and actions mean.

> 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals.
> Nothing has ever been accomplished by any group, every
> achievement is due to an individual.

It seems to me completely obvious that any full description
of society must include elements of all four. Apart from
that, I note that the most extreme form of (1) is
unfalsifiable, while the second sentence of (4) is
demonstrably false.

Brian

Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:

> On 11 Jun 2008 04:45:22 GMT, Dan Goodman
> <dsgood@iphouse.com> wrote in
> <news:484f5861$0$96657$804603d3@auth.newsreader.iph ouse.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.misc:
>
> > 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working
> > together. At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For
> > example, people commit crimes because the system needs
> > criminals; otherwise there would be no prisons, no law
> > enforcement jobs, etc.
>
> > 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be
> > class against class (as in Marxism and some forms of
> > conservatism); ethnic group or castes fighting it out; or
> > family against family.
>
> > 3) Society is continually being made and remade by
> > people's reactions to what they think other people's
> > words and actions mean.
>
> > 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals.
> > Nothing has ever been accomplished by any group, every
> > achievement is due to an individual.
>
> It seems to me completely obvious that any full description
> of society must include elements of all four. Apart from
> that, I note that the most extreme form of (1) is
> unfalsifiable, while the second sentence of (4) is
> demonstrably false.

(4) is two separate, independent, statements. The first seems relevant
to the subject line, the second not. Call them (4.i) and (4.ii).

I actually think (3) and (4.i) go together, so that Dan is proposing
what looks to me like only three different viewpoints about society. (I
would replace (4.ii) by (3), and renumber.)

I'm inclined to think that (1) is false, except that I'm not sure what
"society" means here. I suspect some equivocation is necessary for all
three (not four, now!) statements to be true simultaneously.

Jonathan

On 11 Jun 2008 04:45:22 GMT, "Dan Goodman" <dsgood@iphouse.com> wrote:

> 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working together.
> At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For example, people commit
> crimes because the system needs criminals; otherwise there would be no
> prisons, no law enforcement jobs, etc.

This is generally intended as a happy harmonious ideal, to be
acheived, and everyone will happy happy happy. Unfortunately, as a
minor detail on the way to this utopia, various people who don't fit
in or don't see very inclined to get with the program have to be
eliminated - with great regret, of course.

> 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be class against
> class (as in Marxism and some forms of conservatism); ethnic group or
> castes fighting it out; or family against family.

Which conflict shall of course be overcome, see above.

> 3) Society is continually being made and remade by people's reactions
> to what they think other people's words and actions mean.
>
> 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals. Nothing has
> ever been accomplished by any group, every achievement is due to an
> individual.

Small groups can in fact accomplish things - small groups half a dozen
or so individuals. However, as the group gets larger, it becomes less
capable of making decisions collectively.

So there is no society. There is only individuals and quite small
groups.




--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

Brian M. Scott wrote:

> On 11 Jun 2008 04:45:22 GMT, Dan Goodman
> <dsgood@iphouse.com> wrote in
> <news:484f5861$0$96657$804603d3@auth.newsreader.iph ouse.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.misc:
>
> > 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working
> > together. At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For
> > example, people commit crimes because the system needs
> > criminals; otherwise there would be no prisons, no law
> > enforcement jobs, etc.
>
> > 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be
> > class against class (as in Marxism and some forms of
> > conservatism); ethnic group or castes fighting it out; or
> > family against family.
>
> > 3) Society is continually being made and remade by
> > people's reactions to what they think other people's
> > words and actions mean.
>
> > 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals.
> > Nothing has ever been accomplished by any group, every
> > achievement is due to an individual.
>
> It seems to me completely obvious that any full description
> of society must include elements of all four.

American sociologists use the first three; and at least some
sociologists consider all three necessary. Not for any one researcher,
but for the field as a whole.

> Apart from
> that, I note that the most extreme form of (1) is
> unfalsifiable,

Which doesn't mean it can't be believed in, or used for a story.

> while the second sentence of (4) is
> demonstrably false.

I used to know someone who believed it, and was certain it was
demonstrably true.


--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Futures http://clerkfuturist.wordpress.com
mirror 1: http://dsgood.insanejournal.com
mirror 2: http://dsgood.wordpress.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:04:05 +0100, Jonathan L Cunningham
<spam@sofluc.co.uk.invalid> wrote in
<news:1iidcwv.n786bd1tixm4aN%spam@sofluc.co.uk.inva lid> in
rec.arts.sf.misc:

> Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>> On 11 Jun 2008 04:45:22 GMT, Dan Goodman
>> <dsgood@iphouse.com> wrote in
>> <news:484f5861$0$96657$804603d3@auth.newsreader.iph ouse.com>
>> in rec.arts.sf.misc:

>>> 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working
>>> together. At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For
>>> example, people commit crimes because the system needs
>>> criminals; otherwise there would be no prisons, no law
>>> enforcement jobs, etc.

>>> 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be
>>> class against class (as in Marxism and some forms of
>>> conservatism); ethnic group or castes fighting it out; or
>>> family against family.

>>> 3) Society is continually being made and remade by
>>> people's reactions to what they think other people's
>>> words and actions mean.

>>> 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals.
>>> Nothing has ever been accomplished by any group, every
>>> achievement is due to an individual.

>> It seems to me completely obvious that any full description
>> of society must include elements of all four. Apart from
>> that, I note that the most extreme form of (1) is
>> unfalsifiable, while the second sentence of (4) is
>> demonstrably false.

> (4) is two separate, independent, statements. The first seems relevant
> to the subject line, the second not. Call them (4.i) and (4.ii).

> I actually think (3) and (4.i) go together, so that Dan is
> proposing what looks to me like only three different
> viewpoints about society. (I would replace (4.ii) by (3),
> and renumber.)

I disagree. In my view (3) is clearly consistent with each
of (1) and (2) and inconsistent with a literal
interpretation of (4.i), since it postulates the existence
of a society.

[...]

Brian

In article <484f5861$0$96657$804603d3@auth.newsreader.iphouse. com>,
dsgood@iphouse.com says...
> 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working together.
> At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For example, people commit
> crimes because the system needs criminals; otherwise there would be no
> prisons, no law enforcement jobs, etc.
>
> 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be class against
> class (as in Marxism and some forms of conservatism); ethnic group or
> castes fighting it out; or family against family.
>
> 3) Society is continually being made and remade by people's reactions
> to what they think other people's words and actions mean.
>
> 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals. Nothing has
> ever been accomplished by any group, every achievement is due to an
> individual.

I've an idea this exact post was posted before...

- Gerry Quinn

In article <484f5861$0$96657$804603d3@auth.newsreader.iphouse. com>,
dsgood@iphouse.com says...
> 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working together.
> At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For example, people commit
> crimes because the system needs criminals; otherwise there would be no
> prisons, no law enforcement jobs, etc.
>
> 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be class against
> class (as in Marxism and some forms of conservatism); ethnic group or
> castes fighting it out; or family against family.
>
> 3) Society is continually being made and remade by people's reactions
> to what they think other people's words and actions mean.
>
> 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals. Nothing has
> ever been accomplished by any group, every achievement is due to an
> individual.

Haven't I seen this post before?

- Gerry Quinn

In article <MPG.22bbe3756e490f85989929@news.indigo.ie>,
Gerry Quinn <gerryq@indigo.ie> wrote:

> In article <484f5861$0$96657$804603d3@auth.newsreader.iphouse. com>,
> dsgood@iphouse.com says...
> > 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working together.
> > At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For example, people commit
> > crimes because the system needs criminals; otherwise there would be no
> > prisons, no law enforcement jobs, etc.
> >
> > 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be class against
> > class (as in Marxism and some forms of conservatism); ethnic group or
> > castes fighting it out; or family against family.
> >
> > 3) Society is continually being made and remade by people's reactions
> > to what they think other people's words and actions mean.
> >
> > 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals. Nothing has
> > ever been accomplished by any group, every achievement is due to an
> > individual.
>
> Haven't I seen this post before?
>
> - Gerry Quinn

I seem to be seeing a scattering of old posts--I don't know why.

--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, paperback in bookstores now

David Friedman wrote:

> In article <MPG.22bbe3756e490f85989929@news.indigo.ie>,
> Gerry Quinn <gerryq@indigo.ie> wrote:
>
> > In article <484f5861$0$96657$804603d3@auth.newsreader.iphouse. com>,
> > dsgood@iphouse.com says...
> > > 1) Society is an organic whole, with all its parts working
> > > together. At the extreme, there are no exceptions. For example,
> > > people commit crimes because the system needs criminals;
> > > otherwise there would be no prisons, no law enforcement jobs, etc.
> > >
> > > 2) Society is made up of groups in conflict. It may be class
> > > against class (as in Marxism and some forms of conservatism);
> > > ethnic group or castes fighting it out; or family against family.
> > >
> > > 3) Society is continually being made and remade by people's
> > > reactions to what they think other people's words and actions
> > > mean.
> > >
> > > 4) There are no societies; there are only individuals. Nothing
> > > has ever been accomplished by any group, every achievement is due
> > > to an individual.
> >
> > Haven't I seen this post before?
> >
> > - Gerry Quinn
>
> I seem to be seeing a scattering of old posts--I don't know why.

I've been seeing old posts in various newsgroups.

--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Futures http://clerkfuturist.wordpress.com
mirror 1: http://dsgood.insanejournal.com
mirror 2: http://dsgood.wordpress.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood