The Shadout Mapes was obviously prepared to *try* to slay Jessica had
she determined that she wasn't the one the legend predicted. To my
thinking, even had Jessica not supplied the correct response(s), Mapes
would have likely failed. But, she must have thought she could win. And,
if she had, how would that help her cause, which seemingly was getting
the Atreides gone so a more appropriate family could gain Arrakis.
Surely her ploy/sacrifice was part of a larger scheme, but, IIRC, FH
doesn't really expound upon it.

WM

Wild Monkshood wrote:
> The Shadout Mapes was obviously prepared to *try* to slay Jessica
> had she determined that she wasn't the one the legend predicted. To my
> thinking, even had Jessica not supplied the correct response(s), Mapes
> would have likely failed. But, she must have thought she could win. And,
> if she had, how would that help her cause, which seemingly was getting
> the Atreides gone so a more appropriate family could gain Arrakis.
> Surely her ploy/sacrifice was part of a larger scheme ........
>

Under the Harkonnens, the Fremen - despite being occasionally hunted for
sport amongst other small indignities - were thriving. They practically
owned the deep desert, into which the Harkonnens rarely travelled, and
thus, in effect, controlled the spice. They managed to hide not only
their vast numbers but their entire culture as well from prying eyes.
They were underestimated, which suited them fine. At the same time, they
knew, understood, and could handle the Harkonnens.

The Atreides takeover represented change, a bad thing for a conservative
culture. Even if the Atreides turned out to be less brutal than the
Harkonnens, the Fremen still probably feared interference with their way
of life and influence over the planet.

I think the "larger scheme" was fairly pragmatic - 'better the devil you
know'. Though I doubt, myself, that Mapes could have killed Jessica at
that point, I'm sure that the plan was simply to get the Harkonnens back
if she wasn't the One.

Stoned in Arrakeen wrote:
> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
>> The Shadout Mapes was obviously prepared to *try* to slay Jessica
>> had she determined that she wasn't the one the legend predicted. To my
>> thinking, even had Jessica not supplied the correct response(s), Mapes
>> would have likely failed. But, she must have thought she could win.
>> And, if she had, how would that help her cause, which seemingly was
>> getting the Atreides gone so a more appropriate family could gain
>> Arrakis. Surely her ploy/sacrifice was part of a larger scheme ........
>>
>
> Under the Harkonnens, the Fremen - despite being occasionally hunted for
> sport amongst other small indignities - were thriving. They practically
> owned the deep desert, into which the Harkonnens rarely travelled, and
> thus, in effect, controlled the spice. They managed to hide not only
> their vast numbers but their entire culture as well from prying eyes.
> They were underestimated, which suited them fine. At the same time, they
> knew, understood, and could handle the Harkonnens.
>
> The Atreides takeover represented change, a bad thing for a conservative
> culture. Even if the Atreides turned out to be less brutal than the
> Harkonnens, the Fremen still probably feared interference with their way
> of life and influence over the planet.
>
> I think the "larger scheme" was fairly pragmatic - 'better the devil you
> know'. Though I doubt, myself, that Mapes could have killed Jessica at
> that point, I'm sure that the plan was simply to get the Harkonnens back
> if she wasn't the One.


I considered that, but the Harks the first time around were lacking
a Bene Gesserit to fulfill the prophecy. It seems doubtful that the
Fremen believed if they returned that would have changed in the
meanwhile. They were pragmatic, yes, but the fruition of their dream of
transforming Arrakis via the prophecy probably trumped the other
concerns. And surely Jessica must have sussed out that the Mapes
assassination angle meant that there were likely other agents to take
out other key members of the Atreides entourage. At the time Mapes
confronts Jessica, she isn't even aware of Jessica's station and
importance to Leto. Jessica has to explain it. Surely Mapes didn't think
killing who at the time she thought was a concubine, with the
possibility of a wife lurking about, would cause the Atreides to leave
Arrakis.

WM

Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
>
> Stoned in Arrakeen wrote:
>> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>>
>>> The Shadout Mapes was obviously prepared to *try* to slay Jessica
>>> had she determined that she wasn't the one the legend predicted. To
>>> my thinking, even had Jessica not supplied the correct response(s),
>>> Mapes would have likely failed. But, she must have thought she could
>>> win. And, if she had, how would that help her cause, which seemingly
>>> was getting the Atreides gone so a more appropriate family could gain
>>> Arrakis. Surely her ploy/sacrifice was part of a larger scheme ........
>>>
>>
>> Under the Harkonnens, the Fremen - despite being occasionally hunted
>> for sport amongst other small indignities - were thriving. They
>> practically owned the deep desert, into which the Harkonnens rarely
>> travelled, and thus, in effect, controlled the spice. They managed to
>> hide not only their vast numbers but their entire culture as well from
>> prying eyes. They were underestimated, which suited them fine. At the
>> same time, they knew, understood, and could handle the Harkonnens.
>>
>> The Atreides takeover represented change, a bad thing for a
>> conservative culture. Even if the Atreides turned out to be less
>> brutal than the Harkonnens, the Fremen still probably feared
>> interference with their way of life and influence over the planet.
>>
>> I think the "larger scheme" was fairly pragmatic - 'better the devil
>> you know'. Though I doubt, myself, that Mapes could have killed
>> Jessica at that point, I'm sure that the plan was simply to get the
>> Harkonnens back if she wasn't the One.
>
>
> I considered that, but the Harks the first time around were lacking
> a Bene Gesserit to fulfill the prophecy. It seems doubtful that the
> Fremen believed if they returned that would have changed in the
> meanwhile. They were pragmatic, yes, but the fruition of their dream of
> transforming Arrakis via the prophecy probably trumped the other
> concerns. And surely Jessica must have sussed out that the Mapes
> assassination angle meant that there were likely other agents to take
> out other key members of the Atreides entourage. At the time Mapes
> confronts Jessica, she isn't even aware of Jessica's station and
> importance to Leto. Jessica has to explain it. Surely Mapes didn't think
> killing who at the time she thought was a concubine, with the
> possibility of a wife lurking about, would cause the Atreides to leave
> Arrakis.
>

All fair points. Did Mapes think that Jessica was a concubine, though?
Before Jessica said so, I mean?

I think that the Fremen were taken by surprise at the Mahdi's
"premature" arrival, just as the B.G. were flummoxed over the premature
appearance of their Kwisatz Haderach. The Fremen were tuned to the idea
that it would take over 300 years for Arrakis to become a physical
"paradise" (as per Liet), and I'm sure they thought that the Mahdi would
appear at some time towards the end of this process to 'finish the job'.
So they had to be sure that this was the real thing, as it were.

It's true the Vladimir-era Harkonnens never availed themselves of any
B.G. women - but you never know. It *could* have happened, eventually.
But then, did the Fremen legends say that the Mahdi had to be born into
higher (or even lower) nobility? Even old Yueh married a B.G., after
all, and he was only a doctor.

As to Mapes' deadly intent ...... yes, the other Atreides would have had
to be wiped-out as well. That's probably why Stilgar was really there.
Or at least I like to think so. All in all, though, I think the real
answer to all this is that Herbert was simply careless. Or, to give him
credit, Mapes never actually admits that she would have killed Jessica
(the knife was just a gift).

Stoned in Arrakeen wrote:
> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Stoned in Arrakeen wrote:
>>
>>> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Shadout Mapes was obviously prepared to *try* to slay
>>>> Jessica had she determined that she wasn't the one the legend
>>>> predicted. To my thinking, even had Jessica not supplied the correct
>>>> response(s), Mapes would have likely failed. But, she must have
>>>> thought she could win. And, if she had, how would that help her
>>>> cause, which seemingly was getting the Atreides gone so a more
>>>> appropriate family could gain Arrakis. Surely her ploy/sacrifice was
>>>> part of a larger scheme ........
>>>>
>>>
>>> Under the Harkonnens, the Fremen - despite being occasionally hunted
>>> for sport amongst other small indignities - were thriving. They
>>> practically owned the deep desert, into which the Harkonnens rarely
>>> travelled, and thus, in effect, controlled the spice. They managed to
>>> hide not only their vast numbers but their entire culture as well
>>> from prying eyes. They were underestimated, which suited them fine.
>>> At the same time, they knew, understood, and could handle the
>>> Harkonnens.
>>>
>>> The Atreides takeover represented change, a bad thing for a
>>> conservative culture. Even if the Atreides turned out to be less
>>> brutal than the Harkonnens, the Fremen still probably feared
>>> interference with their way of life and influence over the planet.
>>>
>>> I think the "larger scheme" was fairly pragmatic - 'better the devil
>>> you know'. Though I doubt, myself, that Mapes could have killed
>>> Jessica at that point, I'm sure that the plan was simply to get the
>>> Harkonnens back if she wasn't the One.
>>
>>
>>
>> I considered that, but the Harks the first time around were
>> lacking a Bene Gesserit to fulfill the prophecy. It seems doubtful
>> that the Fremen believed if they returned that would have changed in
>> the meanwhile. They were pragmatic, yes, but the fruition of their
>> dream of transforming Arrakis via the prophecy probably trumped the
>> other concerns. And surely Jessica must have sussed out that the Mapes
>> assassination angle meant that there were likely other agents to take
>> out other key members of the Atreides entourage. At the time Mapes
>> confronts Jessica, she isn't even aware of Jessica's station and
>> importance to Leto. Jessica has to explain it. Surely Mapes didn't
>> think killing who at the time she thought was a concubine, with the
>> possibility of a wife lurking about, would cause the Atreides to leave
>> Arrakis.
>>
>
> All fair points. Did Mapes think that Jessica was a concubine, though?
> Before Jessica said so, I mean?

She told her she wasn't "noble born". She may have said she was Leto's
consort. I do remember Mapes asking about a wife, thinking there might
be one.
>
> I think that the Fremen were taken by surprise at the Mahdi's
> "premature" arrival, just as the B.G. were flummoxed over the premature
> appearance of their Kwisatz Haderach. The Fremen were tuned to the idea
> that it would take over 300 years for Arrakis to become a physical
> "paradise" (as per Liet), and I'm sure they thought that the Mahdi would
> appear at some time towards the end of this process to 'finish the job'.
> So they had to be sure that this was the real thing, as it were.
>
> It's true the Vladimir-era Harkonnens never availed themselves of any
> B.G. women - but you never know. It *could* have happened, eventually.
> But then, did the Fremen legends say that the Mahdi had to be born into
> higher (or even lower) nobility? Even old Yueh married a B.G., after
> all, and he was only a doctor.
>
> As to Mapes' deadly intent ...... yes, the other Atreides would have had
> to be wiped-out as well. That's probably why Stilgar was really there.
> Or at least I like to think so. All in all, though, I think the real
> answer to all this is that Herbert was simply careless. Or, to give him
> credit, Mapes never actually admits that she would have killed Jessica
> (the knife was just a gift).

True, but she doesn't refute Jessica saying it would be the means of
her death had she not proven to be "the one". I felt that Herbert meant
us to understand the deadly peril. He might have been careless, or left
us to render the plot details, or enjoyed the uncertainty. But he did
supply the necessary dynamic tension.

And, it does give us something to think about. And I've enjoyed your
reasoning.



WM

In article <857a1$4851edac$62102adf$13237@ALLTEL.NET>,
Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net says...

> >>>> thought she could win. And, if she had, how would that help her
> >>>> cause, which seemingly was getting the Atreides gone so a more
> >>>> appropriate family could gain Arrakis. Surely her ploy/sacrifice was
> >>>> part of a larger scheme ........

> > As to Mapes' deadly intent ...... yes, the other Atreides would have had
> > to be wiped-out as well. That's probably why Stilgar was really there.
> > Or at least I like to think so. All in all, though, I think the real
> > answer to all this is that Herbert was simply careless. Or, to give him
> > credit, Mapes never actually admits that she would have killed Jessica
> > (the knife was just a gift).
>
> True, but she doesn't refute Jessica saying it would be the means of
> her death had she not proven to be "the one". I felt that Herbert meant
> us to understand the deadly peril. He might have been careless, or left
> us to render the plot details, or enjoyed the uncertainty. But he did
> supply the necessary dynamic tension.
>
> And, it does give us something to think about. And I've enjoyed your
> reasoning.

"Who sees that knife must be cleansed or slain!" she snarled. The
crysknife is holy. Had Jessica failed the test, Mapes would have killed
her (or tried to) just for seeing the knife, not necessarily as a part
of any greater design. IMHO.

--
Juho Julkunen

Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <857a1$4851edac$62102adf$13237@ALLTEL.NET>,
> Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net says...
>
>
>>>>>>thought she could win. And, if she had, how would that help her
>>>>>>cause, which seemingly was getting the Atreides gone so a more
>>>>>>appropriate family could gain Arrakis. Surely her ploy/sacrifice was
>>>>>>part of a larger scheme ........
>
>
>>>As to Mapes' deadly intent ...... yes, the other Atreides would have had
>>>to be wiped-out as well. That's probably why Stilgar was really there.
>>>Or at least I like to think so. All in all, though, I think the real
>>>answer to all this is that Herbert was simply careless. Or, to give him
>>>credit, Mapes never actually admits that she would have killed Jessica
>>>(the knife was just a gift).
>>
>> True, but she doesn't refute Jessica saying it would be the means of
>>her death had she not proven to be "the one". I felt that Herbert meant
>>us to understand the deadly peril. He might have been careless, or left
>>us to render the plot details, or enjoyed the uncertainty. But he did
>>supply the necessary dynamic tension.
>>
>> And, it does give us something to think about. And I've enjoyed your
>>reasoning.
>
>
> "Who sees that knife must be cleansed or slain!" she snarled. The
> crysknife is holy. Had Jessica failed the test, Mapes would have killed
> her (or tried to) just for seeing the knife, not necessarily as a part
> of any greater design. IMHO.


Did Jessica make her statement about it being the means of her death
should she fail to prove to be the one before or after this revelation
by Mapes? I don't recall.

WM

>

In article <7c765$48548fab$62102191$31087@ALLTEL.NET>,
Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net says...
>
>
> Juho Julkunen wrote:
> > In article <857a1$4851edac$62102adf$13237@ALLTEL.NET>,
> > Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net says...
> >
> >
> >>>>>>thought she could win. And, if she had, how would that help her
> >>>>>>cause, which seemingly was getting the Atreides gone so a more
> >>>>>>appropriate family could gain Arrakis. Surely her ploy/sacrifice was
> >>>>>>part of a larger scheme ........
> >
> >
> >>>As to Mapes' deadly intent ...... yes, the other Atreides would have had
> >>>to be wiped-out as well. That's probably why Stilgar was really there.
> >>>Or at least I like to think so. All in all, though, I think the real
> >>>answer to all this is that Herbert was simply careless. Or, to give him
> >>>credit, Mapes never actually admits that she would have killed Jessica
> >>>(the knife was just a gift).
> >>
> >> True, but she doesn't refute Jessica saying it would be the means of
> >>her death had she not proven to be "the one". I felt that Herbert meant
> >>us to understand the deadly peril. He might have been careless, or left
> >>us to render the plot details, or enjoyed the uncertainty. But he did
> >>supply the necessary dynamic tension.
> >>
> >> And, it does give us something to think about. And I've enjoyed your
> >>reasoning.
> >
> >
> > "Who sees that knife must be cleansed or slain!" she snarled. The
> > crysknife is holy. Had Jessica failed the test, Mapes would have killed
> > her (or tried to) just for seeing the knife, not necessarily as a part
> > of any greater design. IMHO.
>
> Did Jessica make her statement about it being the means of her death
> should she fail to prove to be the one before or after this revelation
> by Mapes? I don't recall.

It was, of course, a direct response to Mapes' line "The weapon was
sent as a gift to _you_ should you prove to be the One." By that time
Jessica knew Mapes carried a concealed weapon and was capable of
violence, and had at least a strong suspicion she was prepared for it.
She knows many things, as she informes Mapes. She hadn't seen the blade
yet, or been told what must happen to outworlders who see it. "I know
it now", she thinks to herself after Mapes had snarled the
aforementioned, adding "You *know* that, my Lady."

--
Juho Julkunen

Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <7c765$48548fab$62102191$31087@ALLTEL.NET>,
> Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net says...
>
>>
>>Juho Julkunen wrote:
>>
>>>In article <857a1$4851edac$62102adf$13237@ALLTEL.NET>,
>>>Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net says...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>thought she could win. And, if she had, how would that help her
>>>>>>>>cause, which seemingly was getting the Atreides gone so a more
>>>>>>>>appropriate family could gain Arrakis. Surely her ploy/sacrifice was
>>>>>>>>part of a larger scheme ........
>>>
>>>
>>>>>As to Mapes' deadly intent ...... yes, the other Atreides would have had
>>>>>to be wiped-out as well. That's probably why Stilgar was really there.
>>>>>Or at least I like to think so. All in all, though, I think the real
>>>>>answer to all this is that Herbert was simply careless. Or, to give him
>>>>>credit, Mapes never actually admits that she would have killed Jessica
>>>>>(the knife was just a gift).
>>>>
>>>> True, but she doesn't refute Jessica saying it would be the means of
>>>>her death had she not proven to be "the one". I felt that Herbert meant
>>>>us to understand the deadly peril. He might have been careless, or left
>>>>us to render the plot details, or enjoyed the uncertainty. But he did
>>>>supply the necessary dynamic tension.
>>>>
>>>> And, it does give us something to think about. And I've enjoyed your
>>>>reasoning.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Who sees that knife must be cleansed or slain!" she snarled. The
>>>crysknife is holy. Had Jessica failed the test, Mapes would have killed
>>>her (or tried to) just for seeing the knife, not necessarily as a part
>>>of any greater design. IMHO.
>>
>>
>> Did Jessica make her statement about it being the means of her death
>>should she fail to prove to be the one before or after this revelation
>>by Mapes? I don't recall.
>
>
> It was, of course, a direct response to Mapes' line "The weapon was
> sent as a gift to _you_ should you prove to be the One." By that time
> Jessica knew Mapes carried a concealed weapon and was capable of
> violence, and had at least a strong suspicion she was prepared for it.
> She knows many things, as she informes Mapes. She hadn't seen the blade
> yet, or been told what must happen to outworlders who see it. "I know
> it now", she thinks to herself after Mapes had snarled the
> aforementioned, adding "You *know* that, my Lady."


Thanks. I wonder what became of Duncan's Crysknife. Does anyone
remember if it is referenced after the scene in which he receives
following the death of it's owner, the Fremen courier Turok?

WM
>

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:6f99$4855263c$62102191$23293@ALLTEL.NET...
>
>
> Juho Julkunen wrote:
>> In article <7c765$48548fab$62102191$31087@ALLTEL.NET>,
>> Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net says...
>>
>>>
>>>Juho Julkunen wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <857a1$4851edac$62102adf$13237@ALLTEL.NET>,
>>>>Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>thought she could win. And, if she had, how would that help her
>>>>>>>>>cause, which seemingly was getting the Atreides gone so a more
>>>>>>>>>appropriate family could gain Arrakis. Surely her ploy/sacrifice
>>>>>>>>>was part of a larger scheme ........
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>As to Mapes' deadly intent ...... yes, the other Atreides would have
>>>>>>had to be wiped-out as well. That's probably why Stilgar was really
>>>>>>there. Or at least I like to think so. All in all, though, I think the
>>>>>>real answer to all this is that Herbert was simply careless. Or, to
>>>>>>give him credit, Mapes never actually admits that she would have
>>>>>>killed Jessica (the knife was just a gift).
>>>>>
>>>>> True, but she doesn't refute Jessica saying it would be the means of
>>>>> her death had she not proven to be "the one". I felt that Herbert
>>>>> meant us to understand the deadly peril. He might have been careless,
>>>>> or left us to render the plot details, or enjoyed the uncertainty. But
>>>>> he did supply the necessary dynamic tension.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, it does give us something to think about. And I've enjoyed your
>>>>> reasoning.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Who sees that knife must be cleansed or slain!" she snarled. The
>>>>crysknife is holy. Had Jessica failed the test, Mapes would have killed
>>>>her (or tried to) just for seeing the knife, not necessarily as a part
>>>>of any greater design. IMHO.
>>>
>>>
>>> Did Jessica make her statement about it being the means of her death
>>> should she fail to prove to be the one before or after this revelation
>>> by Mapes? I don't recall.
>>
>>
>> It was, of course, a direct response to Mapes' line "The weapon was sent
>> as a gift to _you_ should you prove to be the One." By that time Jessica
>> knew Mapes carried a concealed weapon and was capable of violence, and
>> had at least a strong suspicion she was prepared for it. She knows many
>> things, as she informes Mapes. She hadn't seen the blade yet, or been
>> told what must happen to outworlders who see it. "I know it now", she
>> thinks to herself after Mapes had snarled the aforementioned, adding "You
>> *know* that, my Lady."
>
>
> Thanks. I wonder what became of Duncan's Crysknife. Does anyone remember
> if it is referenced after the scene in which he receives following the
> death of it's owner, the Fremen courier Turok?
>
> WM
>>

I don't remember it being mentioned after that.