A reminder: Did these threads call me a tit?

ANGEL
Season Five, Episode 12: "You're Welcome"
Writer: David Fury
Director: David Fury

Talk about a loaded episode. So, the 100th episode is a time to be
backward looking, and what better way to do that than to have Cordelia
around quipping about silliness old and new? I never quite got
comfortable with the play of the scenes with Cordelia berating our
hero and generally giving her vague and contradictory spiritual
guidance (like I said, it goes right back to not really working the
same way it didn’t really work originally). In the end, I don’t get
what Angel’s supposed to have learned here. Lindsey panicking (I
guess) and shifting into a kind of plan that’s so totally different
from his previous plan doesn’t fly either. The adrenaline rush of the
second half keeps one engaged as everyone converges for a pretty
exciting climax. Harmony “torturing” Eve, Cordelia getting back to
swinging a sword, Spike casting his lot in with the team, Wesley
saving the day while Lorne literally bleeds for us, and the duel with
Lindsey and his subsequent punishment all follow each other so quickly
that it’s hard to imagine wanting to look away. Those things, even
together with the beautiful ending, can’t quite cover up the fact that
from a plot standpoint, “You’re Welcome” is a mess. But they do go a
long way towards winning my favor, the ending most of all. Given that
I or other people often accuse one or the other of these two actors of
being uneven, I’d like to point out how pitch-perfect every line is.
Even having been spoiled about the death, I was taken aback by how
simple and elegant it was, and how much it affected me.
Rating: Good


Season Five, Episode 13: "Why We Fight"
Writers: Steven S. DeKnight and Drew Goddard
Director: Terrence O'Hara

I originally harped on this for doing parallels and analogies without
a meaningful point. One thing that’s changed upon re-watching is that
especially having now seen where the season goes, and what ends up
happening with the concepts of mission and family, I’m willing to
concede that there was a point to this. It’s not an episode whose
existence is fundamentally a mistake – unlike Lawson, it has a reason.
One thing that hasn’t changed is that besides not making its points
very clearly, “Why We Fight” remains boring. In particular, I’d like
to advance the opinion that more than any other show in the ME canon,
it suffers from One Minute Syndrome, in that every scene (the
flashbacks, at least) is about one minute longer than it should be.
I’ll also refer everyone to OBS’s comments in the original thread, in
which (by way of preamble to eventually explaining why he found so
much to appreciate) he meticulously points out the many things about
the episode which are stupid beyond belief. It’s good reading, or at
least relatively interesting compared to that submarine episode of
that one vampire spinoff.
Rating: Weak


Season Five, Episode 14: "Smile Time"
Writer: Ben Edlund; story by Edlund and Joss Whedon
Director: Ben Edlund

I hadn’t seen a hand puppet on TV in years. Do regional shows like
“Smile Time” still exist? It made me wonder whether puppetry is a
dying business in the age of CGI. This isn’t some neophyte thing –
I’m not inherently opposed to the age of CGI, and certainly BTVS
wouldn’t have happened without it. Cheap computer animation, used
well, can do a lot to let a supernatural show obviate the need to use
cheap ridiculous looking costumes or inanimate objects as stand-ins
for the fantastic. But it’s equally possible that the reason I don’t
see many puppets is simply that they show up in products aimed at
young kids and not much elsewhere. At a certain age, one can take it
for granted that a cartoonish little prop can walk to the other side
of Sesame St. under its own power and be a “character,” and then one
gets older and starts looking around for the string and the
puppeteer. But sometimes adults can be induced to watch the right
puppet shows, and “Smile Time” manages the magic of making a character
turning into a felt puppet into a natural a part of the Buffyverse. I
didn’t question for a second that the title character was Angel, and
that he was capable of walking, moping, fighting, vamping out, etc.
any more than I used to for Grover. Kudos to the designers and string-
manipulators that made it happen.

It helps that the mix is perfect between absurd all-out-wacky humor
and character-driven humor – this is pretty much the way I’d expect
Angel and the people around him to react to him waking up as Puppet!
Angel. I’m still not sold on the social commentary or the Wesley/Fred
angle, but I’m generally too amused to care much. A big test for me,
a known hater of all humor, of whether comedy can be truly brilliant
is how well it holds up once familiarity has started to work its
insidious anti-comedic power. Two viewings in and I’m still
appreciative.
Rating: Excellent


Season Five, Episode 15: "A Hole In The World"
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon

Based on a sample size of n=2, Joss Whedon will always write and
direct an episode in the middle of the fifth season of a ME show that
addresses death, and particularly the mundane side of it. “The Body”
emphasized the moment of discovery for the people left behind. If
“The Body” is about the immediate reaction after death, “A Hole In The
World” is an attempt to convey the process of dying or witnessing it
happen. Although it’s a supernatural situation this time, Fred’s
demise is deliberately drawn out so as to emphasize the mundane parts:
suffering, physical decay, futility, and so on. So, does it work?
Yes and no. (Similar to how I reacted to TB, actually.) My favorite
snarky comment I’ve ever read about _Angel_ on a scan through the TWOP
forums is that “Fred died a lot in this episode.” And it’s certainly
a slow killing (by TV standards, anyway). But I don’t find myself
looking at my watch, either. I wish I could better explain the
reasons the scenes with Fred and Wes do largely succeed and/or why
they still seem like they’re falling short of some intended crushing
effect. I doubt I’ll ever be able to feel as strongly about it as the
characters do, and since this was one of the few major character
deaths I wasn’t spoiled about, I was the target audience. As for the
extracurricular side, the show is let down by the thorough tepidness
of the entire visit to England (including an ending which I still
think is more confusing than it’s supposed to be – oh yes, *obviously*
“the hell with the world” means the opposite). It’s elevated by the
cavemen and astronauts (yeah, you people were right, it’s funny) and
by pretty much any scene in which Gunn appears. So, call it a wash.
Overall, it’s a frustrating but ultimately mostly rewarding viewing
experience, I think, and gets to be my first rating upgrade (or change
of any kind) of the season.
Rating: Good (up from Decent)


Additional comments on S5D4: In one of those nice bits of synergy
that you can’t even try to plan, the ninth episode of the televised
Buffyverse was “The Puppet Show,” while the ninth to last was “Smile
Time.”

I got a fair amount of resistance to the suggestion that Fred’s
ultimate fate wasn’t clear at the concluding beat of “A Hole In The
World,” nor was it supposed to be. I still feel that way. Her actor
is still mincing around at the end of AHITW, which is very much a
cliffhanger. I don’t feel like I’ve said goodbye to her until after
watching “Shells,” an episode which continues to largely concern
itself with bringing her back. Denial and fighting against the
inevitable do not end at the moment of death. Especially true because
it’s a supernatural show; the body’s walking, and people get
resurrected or possessed all the time here.

The romantic possibilities between our vampire leads are often played
up this season in a way that seems to amount to more than just a
running joke. I can’t seem to find the quote anymore and don’t
remember who said it, but one person commented that they didn’t buy
into the innuendo because it would be wrong, in-story, for Angel and
Spike to get together. This wasn’t because of any sexual orientation
issues, but because of Spike’s arc coming from BTVS, where he’s
already ignited into a fiery blaze in the service of the object of his
affection. By this line of argument, an A/S relationship would simply
move him from devotion to one leader into a second similarly
devotional relationship, whereas bringing him back at all should
demand more character growth. I’m not as bothered by the idea simply
because I can’t see Spike ever feeling the way about Angel as he does
about Buffy. Even when his path through life is an echo of Angel’s,
Spike has to do it his own way, and won’t be single-mindedly fixated
on him to the extent of his everything-changing obsession with Buffy.
I can’t see Spike rather be doing anything else, with or without the
infatuation (Marsters’s word). Yes, I realize that this can get a
little muddy since being a member of Team Angel disturbingly often
means giving up the right to proper Informed Consent about major life
decisions, but choosing that is still a choice.

That being said, I believe that the “that one…” whatever in which they
were “intimate” has to come from the soulless period. It doesn’t fit
anywhere in S5, because at all times Angel is in a different physical
plane than Spike, in a different part of the city and out of regular
contact with him, or dating a werewolf. I’m glad to know Joss agrees,
since in the commentary for AHITW, he mentions the line from “Power
Play” and says something along the lines of “they hung out together
for decades, and they’re open-minded vampires. Do you really think
they *never*…?”

Thoughts?

-AOQ

In article <930eb2d0-d020-4c14-bf5f-bccf80186a95@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

> A reminder: Did these threads call me a tit?

no you booby

> Season Five, Episode 12: "You're Welcome"

> around quipping about silliness old and new? I never quite got
> comfortable with the play of the scenes with Cordelia berating our
> hero and generally giving her vague and contradictory spiritual
> guidance (like I said, it goes right back to not really working the
> same way it didn¹t really work originally). In the end, I don¹t get

i guess it depends on what her point was
and how much the first three seasons are to be reinterpreted to jasmine

jasmines sin wasnt peace on earth or eating people
but taking away free choice
what appears to be important the powers that befuddle
is that people have choices

in that case cordelias various jabs could be simply to get angel to think
to realize he actually does have choices
and that he can choose to continue or to do differently

so that cordelia chose to return to shake up the paradigm

or that the writers really screwed up the episode
your choice

> being uneven, I¹d like to point out how pitch-perfect every line is.
> Even having been spoiled about the death, I was taken aback by how
> simple and elegant it was, and how much it affected me.

too bad cordelias roommate in the hospital miss one-foot-in-the-grave
never woke up

> Season Five, Episode 13: "Why We Fight"

> I originally harped on this for doing parallels and analogies without
> a meaningful point. One thing that¹s changed upon re-watching is that

the intent of season five was to be more seaon one episodic
and less season four soap opera

pehaps the point was an story to explore what ends justify what means

if lawson had died and stayed dead
(accepting the premise of the episode rather than the real world)
the intelligence derived from the uboat wouldve been lost
the remaining crew wouldve died
and soldiers and merchant marine wouldve died

instead lawson got to feed on and torment some number of americans as a demon

which is better?

it also touches again on the question whether vampires are evil
becuase they are demons which are evil
or because the humans that they were were evil

> Season Five, Episode 14: "Smile Time"

> I hadn¹t seen a hand puppet on TV in years. Do regional shows like
> ³Smile Time² still exist? It made me wonder whether puppetry is a

molly on the big comfy couch

> It helps that the mix is perfect between absurd all-out-wacky humor
> and character-driven humor ­ this is pretty much the way I¹d expect
> Angel and the people around him to react to him waking up as Puppet!
> Angel. I¹m still not sold on the social commentary or the Wesley/Fred

i was hoping the power shot of puppet angel with his sword leaving his office
and his people armed and following to do battle with the evil puppets
i was hoping that shot would be editted into the credits

> I got a fair amount of resistance to the suggestion that Fred¹s
> ultimate fate wasn¹t clear at the concluding beat of ³A Hole In The
> World,² nor was it supposed to be. I still feel that way. Her actor
> is still mincing around at the end of AHITW, which is very much a
> cliffhanger. I don¹t feel like I¹ve said goodbye to her until after
> watching ³Shells,² an episode which continues to largely concern
> itself with bringing her back. Denial and fighting against the
> inevitable do not end at the moment of death. Especially true because
> it¹s a supernatural show; the body¹s walking, and people get
> resurrected or possessed all the time here.

my understanding is that this is whedons own experience
that he doesnt believe there anything after death
you die you cease to exist and everyone else has to continue
until they cease to exist

so you can be overwhelmed by the futility of it all
or enjoy what time you do have living well and fulfilling
not because it will change anything
but because it will let you enjoy what you have

> into the innuendo because it would be wrong, in-story, for Angel and
> Spike to get together. This wasn¹t because of any sexual orientation
> issues, but because of Spike¹s arc coming from BTVS, where he¹s
> already ignited into a fiery blaze in the service of the object of his
> affection. By this line of argument, an A/S relationship would simply

its clear angelus abused william
given evil demons and all it wouldnt surprise me if that included sexual abuse
not about love devotion or tenderness
but simply to prove who was the alpha dog

then spike could take all that obsession with cecily or his mum
and redirect it to drusilla or buffy
obsession isnt love but the demon in spike wouldnt understand that

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven

>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 12: "You're Welcome"
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: David Fury
>
But they do go a
> long way towards winning my favor, the ending most of all. Given that
> I or other people often accuse one or the other of these two actors of
> being uneven, I’d like to point out how pitch-perfect every line is.
> Even having been spoiled about the death, I was taken aback by how
> simple and elegant it was, and how much it affected me.
> Rating: Good
>

So was Cordelia's departure from the series Charisma Carpenter's
choice, or was it Joss Whedon's? Sources vary.

Anyway, Cordelia's rejection line 'This isn't me anymore.' is
interesting. Yes, the ending shows what she really means, but it also
speaks of her moral integrity. If she wasn’t already dead, would
Cordelia stay at Evil Inc.? No. She has no problem about continuing
the good fight. She just doesn't want to compromise herself like the
rest of Angel Investigations. If still alive, Cordy would have headed
for Scotland and rejoined the Scoobies. This episode is the final
transformation of a seven-year characterization (excluding her S4
actions). Looking back at 'Welcome to the Hellmouth', we had two
supporting female characters: the vicious shallow bitch and the sweet
'never tell a lie' girl next door. One became a noble heroine (despite
a period of actions NOT of her own doing) while the other went through
some ethically questionable actions (ALL her own doing). One has to
admit Cordelia has come a long way.

> Season Five, Episode 13: "Why We Fight"
> Writers: Steven S. DeKnight and Drew Goddard
> Director: Terrence O'Hara

Where is the mention of Cordelia? I suppose it was the writers'
decision to leave Cordangel behind them. But as unpopular the romance
was, the friendship at the beginning was an important part of the
show. Then again, in the Buffyverse, whereas dead (popular) love
interests get mentioned a lot (Tara, Jenny, Angel- yeah, he *is*
dead), dead friends are quickly forgotten (Jesse).

Oh, Lawson. So much potential in so little time. As shaky as my last
explanation on this episode, I still maintain the point that Lawson
was a different vampire from Drusilla, Angela, and Penn. His saying
that he embraced the dark side implies he had the ability of moral
choice that his brethren lacked. As for the soul inside of him, was it
a part of Angel's (which seems to be self-replenished, if nearly 8
seasons is any clue), or did the magical nature in Angel's soul allow
Lawson to keep his own? (With Lawson's accusations just him avoiding
responsibility; souls seem to be treated as filth by vampires). I
don't know. But I can't help believing that if Lawson had some
advantages (a dark experience in taking lives, Angel deciding to take
him under his wing, etc.), the first ensouled-sired vampire might have
made his fellow colleagues proud.

A.Gerard

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:930eb2d0-d020-4c14-bf5f-bccf80186a95@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 12: "You're Welcome"

> In the end, I don’t get
> what Angel’s supposed to have learned here.

To believe in himself? I don't know if there's a good dime store aphorism
for it, but I think that, "I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys," is supposed to
be a statement of self affirmation on par with Buffy's famous moment of self
affirmation in Anne. And I observe that Angel's rivalry with Spike over
destiny seems largely put to rest here. The situation at W&H still
paralyzes him, but the all consuming self doubt seems to end. (Maybe a self
esteem puppet sing along will help too.)


> Lindsey panicking (I
> guess) and shifting into a kind of plan that’s so totally different
> from his previous plan doesn’t fly either.

That's probably the biggest reason I just can't get the rating for this
episode above Decent. When Lindsey is later retrieved from hell we'll learn
more about what's making him tick. Alas, it won't really explain the Spike
gambit. More to the point, it won't explain why such an elaborate and
lovingly played out ploy by Lindsey could be dropped so easily - as if it
were a trivial thing - in favor of a brute force attack that could have been
employed day 1 (without Spike) with much less risk to Lindsey.

Perhaps I can guess what happened. In terms of thematic flow, this is a
natural climax and resolution to Angel's bout with self doubt. On the path
to S5's version of Angel knowing himself and coming to terms with his demon
nature. In the process, the fear of Spike replacing him loses its power.
So there's no longer any purpose to the elaborate helping the helpless
charade.

That's fine for plot in service to theme. Not so fine for plot making any
sense in itself. Perhaps this encapsulates why I end up liking BtVS so much
more than AtS. (Or at least one reason for that.) It's not that
sacrificing plot in service to theme is foreign to Joss's shows. I just
seem to get hung up on it a lot more in AtS. Maybe AtS's elaborate and
extravagant story lines work against themselves when the heavy hand of
thematic purpose intercedes.


> Harmony “torturing” Eve,

As you pointed out in Destiny, once Lindsey enters the picture and Eve is
shown to be motivated by love, she's no longer as interesting - even stops
being a real player. (Usurped by Lindsey.)

But I don't think interest goes away entirely. Especially this episode.
This is when her house of cards collapses. In the process her true
inexperience and vulnerability is revealed to the audience and to herself.
She has been cool as a cucumber until now - including some pretty dangerous
situations. But she's been brazening it out on the basis of her confidence
in winning. Now when she suddenly realizes that disaster can't be averted,
she crumbles. Her backbone turns to jelly.

There's a kind of sadness to Eve not truly understanding until now the true
consequences of her chosen path - of discovering too late that for all her
skills, she's not made out of strong enough stuff. Lilah, on the other
hand, understood perfectly. She harbored no illusions. It made her a much
more formidable foe. But only Wesley could feel sorrow in her fall. Eve
evokes greater sympathy as the girl who got in over her head.

On the other hand, Eve has earned her fate. Consequences aren't swayed by
feelings - one of Joss's repeated background themes.

The play of this as Eve panics while watching Lindsey's ploy unravel and
then so easily betrays her love to save her skin is a highlight of the
episode for me.


> Those things, even
> together with the beautiful ending, can’t quite cover up the fact that
> from a plot standpoint, “You’re Welcome” is a mess. But they do go a
> long way towards winning my favor, the ending most of all.

My sentiments follow yours pretty closely - only the balance isn't quite as
positive.


> Rating: Good

I rate it Decent. But still pretty entertaining. Irrespective of episode
rating, it's successful at its most important objective of relieving the
audience of the sour taste left over from S4 concerning Cordelia.


> Season Five, Episode 13: "Why We Fight"

> I originally harped on this for doing parallels and analogies without
> a meaningful point. One thing that’s changed upon re-watching is that
> especially having now seen where the season goes, and what ends up
> happening with the concepts of mission and family, I’m willing to
> concede that there was a point to this. It’s not an episode whose
> existence is fundamentally a mistake – unlike Lawson, it has a reason.

It also foreshadows. Wesley learned the art of the hard decision from the
feet of the true master - Angel. What happens to Lawson is just what Angel
does - and will do again. A long time ago Drusilla was presented to us as
Angel's creation - an artistic masterpiece. Spike's back story was
re-jiggered a bit this season to show Angel in considerable part creating
him too. Lawson is another creation - at his best conceptually when you
consider how tragically well the result perverts the source. How much has
Angel likewise "created" Wesley, Gunn and even Lorne?


> I’ll also refer everyone to OBS’s comments in the original thread, in
> which (by way of preamble to eventually explaining why he found so
> much to appreciate) he meticulously points out the many things about
> the episode which are stupid beyond belief. It’s good reading, or at
> least relatively interesting compared to that submarine episode of
> that one vampire spinoff.

Oh, gee, I earn recommended reading for one of the poorest episodes of the
AtS run. Oh, well. All publicity is good publicity. <g>

> Rating: Weak

I readily acknowledge that there's a lot of crap in this episode. Too much.
The best way to survive it is to just let it be stupid. Which I do and find
entertaining enough to let it off with a low Decent ranking.


> Season Five, Episode 14: "Smile Time"

> I’m still not sold on the social commentary

What social commentary? The child abuse thing? I'm not convinced there's
purpose (or function) to that other than providing a way for the puppets to
be menacing with a bite.


> or the Wesley/Fred
> angle,

Wesley still can't kiss - neener-neener!


> Rating: Excellent

Yep.


> Season Five, Episode 15: "A Hole In The World"

> If
> “The Body” is about the immediate reaction after death, “A Hole In The
> World” is an attempt to convey the process of dying or witnessing it
> happen. Although it’s a supernatural situation this time, Fred’s
> demise is deliberately drawn out so as to emphasize the mundane parts:
> suffering, physical decay, futility, and so on.

Since I last saw this episode I watched my father die. I don't want to draw
a bunch of parallels, but one curious thing happened that does connect me to
this episode. Shortly after he stopped breathing his color abruptly
changed - a scary and appalling moment that sure made death feel real. But
the odd thing about the moment is that it also served to smooth his
complexion and visually transform his drawn emaciated look to the natural
strong (and lean) bone lines that I'd known in him as a much younger man. I
remarked at that moment how handsome he was. And he really was.

This comes to mind because of a remark I made last time about how beautiful
Fred looks - especially a brief moment when she collapses in the laboratory
after attempting to research her illness. I've noticed that before - in
movies anyway - where somebody on their deathbed is made to look more
beautiful than ever. I've generally dismissed that as sweet, but obviously
unreal. Now I think I appreciate the idea a little differently.


> So, call it a wash.
> Overall, it’s a frustrating but ultimately mostly rewarding viewing
> experience, I think, and gets to be my first rating upgrade (or change
> of any kind) of the season.
> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

I still rate it Good. Even with the extra connection, the death scene
doesn't work emotionally for me as well as I feel it should. I think it's
because I had grown so weary of the Fred/Wesley dance that I could no longer
feel invested in their love. The rest of the episode doesn't particularly
bother me, but mainly serves to support the death watch. The ultimate
effect is still good. Just not the special thing it's aiming for. Next
episode, however, engages me much more strongly - and the season finally
takes off as a whole experience.


> I got a fair amount of resistance to the suggestion that Fred’s
> ultimate fate wasn’t clear at the concluding beat of “A Hole In The
> World,” nor was it supposed to be. I still feel that way. Her actor
> is still mincing around at the end of AHITW, which is very much a
> cliffhanger. I don’t feel like I’ve said goodbye to her until after
> watching “Shells,” an episode which continues to largely concern
> itself with bringing her back. Denial and fighting against the
> inevitable do not end at the moment of death. Especially true because
> it’s a supernatural show; the body’s walking, and people get
> resurrected or possessed all the time here.

Nor argument from me. Perhaps some people who know the whole series can't
separate all they know of her passing from the uncertainties of the moment.

On the other hand, I'm of the school that the memory restoration spell
leaves Fred's ultimate fate uncertain right through the ending of the
series.


> The romantic possibilities between our vampire leads are often played
> up this season in a way that seems to amount to more than just a
> running joke.

I still find too much smirk in the innuendo to treat it seriously.

OBS

> destiny seems largely put to rest here. The situation at W&H still
> paralyzes him, but the all consuming self doubt seems to end. (Maybe a self
> esteem puppet sing along will help too.)

maybe he just needs washus puppets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washu_Hakubi

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven

On Jun 12, 4:35 am, mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fh...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> In article <930eb2d0-d020-4c14-bf5f-bccf80186...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:

> > It helps that the mix is perfect between absurd all-out-wacky humor
> > and character-driven humor ­ this is pretty much the way I¹d expect
> > Angel and the people around him to react to him waking up as Puppet!
> > Angel. I¹m still not sold on the social commentary or the Wesley/Fred
>
> i was hoping the power shot of puppet angel with his sword leaving his office
> and his people armed and following to do battle with the evil puppets
> i was hoping that shot would be editted into the credits

He'd wipe the floor with Superstar!Jonathan.

> > I got a fair amount of resistance to the suggestion that Fred¹s
> > ultimate fate wasn¹t clear at the concluding beat of ³A Hole In The
> > World,² nor was it supposed to be. I still feel that way. Her actor
> > is still mincing around at the end of AHITW, which is very much a
> > cliffhanger. I don¹t feel like I¹ve said goodbye to her until after
> > watching ³Shells,² an episode which continues to largely concern
> > itself with bringing her back. Denial and fighting against the
> > inevitable do not end at the moment of death. Especially true because
> > it¹s a supernatural show; the body¹s walking, and people get
> > resurrected or possessed all the time here.
>
> my understanding is that this is whedons own experience
> that he doesnt believe there anything after death
> you die you cease to exist and everyone else has to continue
> until they cease to exist
>
> so you can be overwhelmed by the futility of it all
> or enjoy what time you do have living well and fulfilling
> not because it will change anything
> but because it will let you enjoy what you have

Well, I believe the same things in real life; I was just arguing that
within the rules set down by these shows, the end of AHITW clearly
qualifies as a cliffhanger, not an unambiguous death.

-AOQ

On Jun 12, 11:29 am, angm...@hotmail.com wrote:

> So was Cordelia's departure from the series Charisma Carpenter's
> choice, or was it Joss Whedon's? Sources vary.

As far as leaving after S4, I heard she got fired, no two ways around
it. As far as "You're Welcome," the tale is that Carpenter, due to
some bad blood about the whole getting-fired thing, initially refused
to do one guest-star appearance if it'd lead to Cordelia getting
killed off. Then she changed her mind because of how much she liked
the YW script. I've never heard anything on the NG to contradict
either of these stories; anyone?

-AOQ

On Jun 12, 11:41 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:930eb2d0-d020-4c14-bf5f-bccf80186a95@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > ANGEL
> > Season Five, Episode 12: "You're Welcome"
> > In the end, I don’t get
> > what Angel’s supposed to have learned here.
>
> To believe in himself? I don't know if there's a good dime store aphorism
> for it, but I think that, "I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys," is supposed to
> be a statement of self affirmation on par with Buffy's famous moment of self
> affirmation in Anne. And I observe that Angel's rivalry with Spike over
> destiny seems largely put to rest here. The situation at W&H still
> paralyzes him, but the all consuming self doubt seems to end. (Maybe a self
> esteem puppet sing along will help too.)

The key word being "supposed to be." Angel's declarations about how
they'll use the job and won't let the lawyers beat them are
interchangable with any from those in the first eleven episodes in
which we're led to believe he didn't believe it as much or whatever.

> > Season Five, Episode 14: "Smile Time"
> > I’m still not sold on the social commentary
>
> What social commentary? The child abuse thing? I'm not convinced there's
> purpose (or function) to that other than providing a way for the puppets to
> be menacing with a bite.

Tell that to the people in the original thread who were talking about
how brilliant and daring it is to show TV being damaging to kids... in
a TV show!!!!111!!

Condolences re: your father. I'm often interested to see what people
who've had experiences with death react to how it's depicted in
fiction (although as Tara reminds us, it's hardly identical for
everyone).

> > I got a fair amount of resistance to the suggestion that Fred’s
> > ultimate fate wasn’t clear at the concluding beat of “A Hole In The
> > World,” nor was it supposed to be. I still feel that way. Her actor
> > is still mincing around at the end of AHITW, which is very much a
> > cliffhanger. I don’t feel like I’ve said goodbye to her until after
> > watching “Shells,” an episode which continues to largely concern
> > itself with bringing her back. Denial and fighting against the
> > inevitable do not end at the moment of death. Especially true because
> > it’s a supernatural show; the body’s walking, and people get
> > resurrected or possessed all the time here.
>
> Nor argument from me. Perhaps some people who know the whole series can't
> separate all they know of her passing from the uncertainties of the moment..
>
> On the other hand, I'm of the school that the memory restoration spell
> leaves Fred's ultimate fate uncertain right through the ending of the
> series.

Do you think the memories make a difference one way or the other? I'm
more inclined to think that any uncertainty is right there in
Illyria's nature, irrespective of who remembers what.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:ae0c62e0-6aa2-4e4e-aafc-45cbbad551e9@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 12, 11:41 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> messagenews:930eb2d0-d020-4c14-bf5f-bccf80186a95@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...


>> > ANGEL
>> > Season Five, Episode 12: "You're Welcome"
>> > In the end, I don’t get
>> > what Angel’s supposed to have learned here.
>>
>> To believe in himself? I don't know if there's a good dime store
>> aphorism
>> for it, but I think that, "I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys," is supposed
>> to
>> be a statement of self affirmation on par with Buffy's famous moment of
>> self
>> affirmation in Anne. And I observe that Angel's rivalry with Spike over
>> destiny seems largely put to rest here. The situation at W&H still
>> paralyzes him, but the all consuming self doubt seems to end. (Maybe a
>> self
..> esteem puppet sing along will help too.)
>
> The key word being "supposed to be." Angel's declarations about how
> they'll use the job and won't let the lawyers beat them are
> interchangable with any from those in the first eleven episodes in
> which we're led to believe he didn't believe it as much or whatever.

Hey, I'm not going to defend it. As far as I'm concerned they don't get out
of the broad story rut until Shells. But you asked what you were "supposed"
to have learned, and I think that's the answer.


>> > Season Five, Episode 14: "Smile Time"
>> > I’m still not sold on the social commentary
>>
>> What social commentary? The child abuse thing? I'm not convinced
>> there's
>> purpose (or function) to that other than providing a way for the puppets
>> to
>> be menacing with a bite.
>
> Tell that to the people in the original thread who were talking about
> how brilliant and daring it is to show TV being damaging to kids... in
> a TV show!!!!111!!

Yeah, I just re-read that. Um, well I guess I shouldn't discourage finding
all the subtext you can get since I generally work overtime on that kind of
thing. It's just that... Isn't it the really obvious way to make the kid
show puppets evil? It's not like they actually go anywhere with it. Back
in S1's I've Got You Under My Skin they hint at child abuse as a misdirect -
and still achieve more depth in that direction than this.


> Condolences re: your father.

Thank you.


> I'm often interested to see what people
> who've had experiences with death react to how it's depicted in
> fiction (although as Tara reminds us, it's hardly identical for
> everyone).

It was pretty strange watching House for a while. (Especially since part of
my father's story was a struggle coming up with a diagnosis.) When I was
around my mother I was afraid to turn on the TV since it seemed like
everything touched on death somewhere and I thought it would upset her.
(Which may have been projection on my part.) But that's all pretty generic.
This may be the first case that connected more personally.


>> On the other hand, I'm of the school that the memory restoration spell
>> leaves Fred's ultimate fate uncertain right through the ending of the
>> series.
>
> Do you think the memories make a difference one way or the other? I'm
> more inclined to think that any uncertainty is right there in
> Illyria's nature, irrespective of who remembers what.

We can't really know since the series was so quickly brought to a close. I
don't think the memories have to make a difference - or that's the only
possible path to brining Fred back in some fashion. But it sure felt to me
like a setup to offer a way back. The show seemed to go to special effort
to create an initial impression of finality by leaving Fred's body as a mere
"shell". And then, in classic fantasy fashion, provides the unexpected
loophole of Illyria being there when the memory bomb goes off. At the least
it raises doubt.

My theory for Time Bomb (unprovable of course) is that Illyria would have
planned well enough to ensure an adequate vessel for herself. (And the
first words we ever hear from Illyria are, "This will do," in appraisal of
her new body.) So something must be messing things up if suddenly Fred's
shell can't contain her. The logical something is the unexpected addition
of Fred's memories that were supposed to have been burned out. That's the
only thing I know of that's counter to plan.

OBS

> My theory for Time Bomb (unprovable of course) is that Illyria would have
> planned well enough to ensure an adequate vessel for herself. (And the
> first words we ever hear from Illyria are, "This will do," in appraisal of
> her new body.) So something must be messing things up if suddenly Fred's
> shell can't contain her. The logical something is the unexpected addition
> of Fred's memories that were supposed to have been burned out. That's the
> only thing I know of that's counter to plan.

when she enters her palace she stands before what looks like a destroyed statue
which corresponds to illyria itself in the book illustration
with its army ranked beyond

it might have been freds shell was only intended to last long enough
to reach the palace and transfer illyria to her original form

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven

"mariposas rand mair fheal" <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-62385A.03024613062008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> My theory for Time Bomb (unprovable of course) is that Illyria would have
>> planned well enough to ensure an adequate vessel for herself. (And the
>> first words we ever hear from Illyria are, "This will do," in appraisal
>> of
>> her new body.) So something must be messing things up if suddenly Fred's
>> shell can't contain her. The logical something is the unexpected
>> addition
>> of Fred's memories that were supposed to have been burned out. That's
>> the
>> only thing I know of that's counter to plan.
>
> when she enters her palace she stands before what looks like a destroyed
> statue
> which corresponds to illyria itself in the book illustration
> with its army ranked beyond
>
> it might have been freds shell was only intended to last long enough
> to reach the palace and transfer illyria to her original form

Yeah, that's a possibility that could easily have been expanded upon if they
had ever gotten to that point. But that didn't happen. So, working with
what's known, the memory spell strikes me as much more suggestive. It's an
active force with a known function and Illyria is seen standing within its
field of effect. Since her physical breakdown starts soon after it seems
natural to me to look there first for causation. The statue (and anything
else in the ruins for that matter) could mean anything - affect anything -
but is only known to be a ruin. It comes across to me as an extra level of
extrapolation with fewer clues. So I prefer the memory spell.

I think it also better fits the Whedon style and Illyria's character
development. Joss seems positively obsessed with duality of identity.

OBS

One Bit Shy wrote:
> "mariposas rand mair fheal" <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-62385A.03024613062008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> My theory for Time Bomb (unprovable of course) is that Illyria would have
> >> planned well enough to ensure an adequate vessel for herself. (And the
> >> first words we ever hear from Illyria are, "This will do," in appraisal
> >> of
> >> her new body.) So something must be messing things up if suddenly Fred's
> >> shell can't contain her. The logical something is the unexpected
> >> addition
> >> of Fred's memories that were supposed to have been burned out. That's
> >> the
> >> only thing I know of that's counter to plan.
> >
> > when she enters her palace she stands before what looks like a destroyed
> > statue
> > which corresponds to illyria itself in the book illustration
> > with its army ranked beyond
> >
> > it might have been freds shell was only intended to last long enough
> > to reach the palace and transfer illyria to her original form
>
> Yeah, that's a possibility that could easily have been expanded upon if they
> had ever gotten to that point. But that didn't happen. So, working with
> what's known, the memory spell strikes me as much more suggestive. It's an
> active force with a known function and Illyria is seen standing within its
> field of effect. Since her physical breakdown starts soon after it seems
> natural to me to look there first for causation. The statue (and anything
> else in the ruins for that matter) could mean anything - affect anything -
> but is only known to be a ruin. It comes across to me as an extra level of
> extrapolation with fewer clues. So I prefer the memory spell.
>
> I think it also better fits the Whedon style and Illyria's character
> development. Joss seems positively obsessed with duality of identity.

I'm with m.r.m.f. on this one. The story seems cleaner to me if
Illyria's simply too much to contain in a human shell for an extended
period of time.

None of this does anything to speak against your idea that S6 would
have explored how much humanity and Fred-ness can come from memory.

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:cce81c7a-00d5-4b71-b898-0f08091342c7@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> "mariposas rand mair fheal" <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:mair_fheal-62385A.03024613062008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> >> My theory for Time Bomb (unprovable of course) is that Illyria would
>> >> have
>> >> planned well enough to ensure an adequate vessel for herself. (And
>> >> the
>> >> first words we ever hear from Illyria are, "This will do," in
>> >> appraisal
>> >> of
>> >> her new body.) So something must be messing things up if suddenly
>> >> Fred's
>> >> shell can't contain her. The logical something is the unexpected
>> >> addition
>> >> of Fred's memories that were supposed to have been burned out. That's
>> >> the
>> >> only thing I know of that's counter to plan.
>> >
>> > when she enters her palace she stands before what looks like a
>> > destroyed
>> > statue
>> > which corresponds to illyria itself in the book illustration
>> > with its army ranked beyond
>> >
>> > it might have been freds shell was only intended to last long enough
>> > to reach the palace and transfer illyria to her original form
>>
>> Yeah, that's a possibility that could easily have been expanded upon if
>> they
>> had ever gotten to that point. But that didn't happen. So, working with
>> what's known, the memory spell strikes me as much more suggestive. It's
>> an
>> active force with a known function and Illyria is seen standing within
>> its
>> field of effect. Since her physical breakdown starts soon after it seems
>> natural to me to look there first for causation. The statue (and
>> anything
>> else in the ruins for that matter) could mean anything - affect
>> anything -
>> but is only known to be a ruin. It comes across to me as an extra level
>> of
>> extrapolation with fewer clues. So I prefer the memory spell.
>>
>> I think it also better fits the Whedon style and Illyria's character
>> development. Joss seems positively obsessed with duality of identity.
>
> I'm with m.r.m.f. on this one. The story seems cleaner to me if
> Illyria's simply too much to contain in a human shell for an extended
> period of time.
>
> None of this does anything to speak against your idea that S6 would
> have explored how much humanity and Fred-ness can come from memory.

Nor for it. It is admittedly all highly speculative. But that's S5's great
redeeming value for me. It leaves me imagining all the things that are left
possible. That might have been written. Illyria is a big part of the
intrigue for me. The idea of memories defining the person is certainly one
piece. But there's more. Memory as the central catalyst for the new
Illyria/Fred links her to Wesley's own experience and the greater AtS story
where their current circumstances have all been brought on by the Connor
memory spell. Everything that emphasizes the memory element adds a kind of
symmetry to the story.

Likewise anything that emphasizes an inner duality. Balancing the human and
the demon within Angel is kind of the core theme to the series and to Angel
before AtS. But more specifically, this is now the third "God" Joss has
offered us that must share their body in some fashion with a human. (Glory
and Jasmine before.)

It's not cleanness of story that I'm after with my suggested cause for
Illyria's woes. I just think that having Fred somehow be responsible for
Illyria having to relinquish much of her power is more interesting and more
connected to everything else than a generic human physical limitation.

Fred: And this is my power: to not let them take me. Not me.

OBS