A reminder: These threads spend all their time making out with other
vampires, like in Anne Rice novels.

ANGEL
Season Five, Episode 16: "Shells"
Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
Director: Steven S. DeKnight

I’ve always liked this one, and it gets better with age, like a fine
wine or an ancient hell god. A few have mentioned this being when the
whole season comes together, and we all know how much fun that is.
Nothing puts me in a good mood like seeing an impressively cool scene
before I’ve had time to completely digest the previous one. “Shells”
sparked what I think is one of my best reviews – probably more worth
reading than this post, anyway, but I didn’t totally love it because
of some undefined spark it didn’t quite have, scenes that weren’t
quite tight enough, or something. Well, the hell with that, it’s good
enough for me now. Last time I was most drawn to Gunn’s world
collapsing and all the unexpected bits of humor thrown in. Still
great, but this time I was like everyone else and paid most attention
to Wesley, who’s back to drifting through the episode in his own
headspace and writhing for our entertainment, as Joss (should have
always) intended. Illyria quickly emerges as one of the show’s most
memorable creations with her ability to bend time leading to two cool
and, more importantly, creative action sequences. The denouement
might have been an anticlimax in lesser hands, but “Shells” is working
hard enough to prime the audience for it that I think it pretty much
works. Finally, there’s that montage set to song, the last of the
series (I think)… well, have I called any of the episode-closing
montages my favorite yet? If so I didn’t mean it, because this is my
favorite. They found the perfect song for taking a step back to say
goodbye to Fred (driving off hopefully into her bright future – damn
you, Whedon). I backed up and re-watched it a few times this time
through.
Rating: Excellent (up from Good)


Season Five, Episode 17: "Underneath"
Writers: Elisabeth Craft and Sarah Fain
Director: Skip Schoolnik

This one feels kinda tedious to me for some reason. It’s not that
it’s in any way bad – it‘s actually pretty good – but I’d call itthe
weak link of this run falling between “Shells” and “Origin.” The
holding dimension has some nice imagery, even if I don’t know if it
means much of anything, whereas the stuff they learn after going to
all the trouble of bringing Lindsey back still underwhelms me a
little, especially given that we don’t see him again until the end.
“Underneath” has some good moments like Lorne’s monologue and
Hamilton’s extended entrance (I quite like the whole defending-the-
fort story thread), and it’s a pretty good Gunn episode. I just have
very little to say about it.
Rating: Good


Season Five, Episode 18: "Origin"
Writer: Drew Goddard
Director: Terrence O'Hara

I think I’ve already mentioned this, but I’m glad to see the _Mad Men_
acclaim supporting my contention that Vincent Kartheiser is a pretty
damn great actor, and this episode gives him a chance to put a
different spin on Connor. Now, I was wondering whether I’d need to
downgrade my rating for “Origin” as it ambled along in an enjoyable
but indulgent sort of way. Then it hit its climax, and no, no
downgrade. This is one of those completions of something I’d thought
was already complete, with Connor being restored to what he could be
now that he’s been given the chance to handle it, and it’s a story
that couldn’t have been told properly without most of a season of
something else around to separate it from “Home.” The way Fred ends
up triggering Wesley’s crisis of faith is something I hadn’t expected
or anything, but makes great sense. Then even already knowing how
it’ll end, the confrontation outside the isolation chamber is
amazingly intense, rivaling the first time Wes lost faith in his
boss. My one issue originally was the lack of fallout, and now I
think I didn’t fully appreciate the way Wes reacts to getting his
memory back, deliberately making a decision to endorse Angel’s
choice. It helps that Drew’s writing throughout “Origin” is top-
notch, from its dead-on Sahjhan to all those lines of dialogue with
unobtrusive but clever double meanings. I have this weird thing with
Mr. Goddard where I can’t quite get over that he’s the guy who wrote
“Selfless” on his first time out, and will probably never be able to
match it, but this is one of his masterpieces.

Occasionally I’ll write something cool and totally forget about it.
Here’s a self-quote from the original thread about Wesley: “He has an
answer to the ‘why,’ which he didn't before he smashed the ball o'
memory. Fred still may not be ‘worth’ Connor for him, but she died
(indirectly) because Angel was trying to protect someone he loved, not
just because he sold out or made a bad tactical choice. That might
make a difference.”
Rating: Excellent


Season Five, Episode 19: "Time Bomb"
Writer: Ben Edlund
Director: Vern Gillum

This one improved on second viewing. It’s a clever puzzle, full of
unexpected reversals and stuff that doesn’t mean what you originally
thought it did (notice a theme with the best Wesley episodes?) It’s
equally successful as food for the left brain with the chronology to
unravel and the right brain with the high-octane sequences in the
training room, especially the vampire dusting. The weakest link of TB
is still the end for me (other than Spike’s line about Illyria pre-
and post-depowering). Illyria’s big speech is way too droning to hold
my attention, and completely submerges the intended money moment
(which I’ve been lead to believe is “fighting to hold on to what you
were - it's
destroying you"). The result is that the ending seems to come out of
nowhere and be more confusing than portentous. Yeah, I know we’re not
supposed to know the whole story yet, but a smoother bridge would have
been appreciated as the series moves, uninterrupted by any horribly
misconceived or awkwardly juxtaposed interludes, into its next
episode, “Power Play.”
Rating: Good (up from Decent)


Additional comments on S5D5: I sometimes spend more time than seems
appropriate trying to figure out Harmony in late S5. Especially when
she’s sitting with an injured Gunn and doing an amazing impression of
ability to be not completely self-centered. Evil and vapid as she is,
she could have belonged in this place.

Although I’m not normally interested in such things, the “making of a
stunt” featurette is pretty cool. They picked one where not
everything went flawlessly, so we can marvel over how much pain and
painstaking effort goes into five seconds that flash by during a
series that’s not really driven by how stuff looks. I guess it’s got
to be a dream job for someone, but how does one not find it thankless?

Some people commented that Adam Baldwin seemed a little full of
himself on the commentary track, particularly when he complains about
actors playing around and delaying everyone. He does give off the air
that he’s slumming it by being in shows with demons (as opposed to
more serious pop sci fi?). Of course, I don’t know how much stock to
put into those impressions given that people who actually know him and
work with him never have anything but good things to say. I just
kinda wish, as a Buffyverse geek, that someone had been on hand to
mention they made the Lorne Greene reference on screen when they first
named the character.

Thoughts?

-AOQ

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f159f74-163f-4bc4-aa20-7c62050cf42e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

I'm heading out of town and won't be able to respond to anything for about a
week. But I'll get to this (and presumably the last DVD too).

This is a really good set of episodes though - one of the best runs of the
series. I think S2 and S3 both peak higher, but nothing is as steadily high
quality as this little Ilyria mini-story. I think I have 3 Excellents and a
Good here.

OBS

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f159f74-163f-4bc4-aa20-7c62050cf42e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> A reminder: These threads spend all their time making out with other
> vampires, like in Anne Rice novels.

You know, I still haven't read an Anne Rice novel.


> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 16: "Shells"

> I’ve always liked this one, and it gets better with age, like a fine
> wine or an ancient hell god.

My favorite of the season with the possible exception of the closer.


> A few have mentioned this being when the
> whole season comes together, and we all know how much fun that is.

In retrospect I'm not sure that it comes together exactly. The situation at
W&H hasn't changed so much, but everything seems to have finally been
granted some meaning. Nothing like a sudden death in the family to stir
things up I suppose.


> Nothing puts me in a good mood like seeing an impressively cool scene
> before I’ve had time to completely digest the previous one. “Shells”
> sparked what I think is one of my best reviews – probably more worth
> reading than this post, anyway, but I didn’t totally love it because
> of some undefined spark it didn’t quite have, scenes that weren’t
> quite tight enough, or something. Well, the hell with that, it’s good
> enough for me now. Last time I was most drawn to Gunn’s world
> collapsing and all the unexpected bits of humor thrown in. Still
> great, but this time I was like everyone else and paid most attention
> to Wesley, who’s back to drifting through the episode in his own
> headspace and writhing for our entertainment, as Joss (should have
> always) intended.

"Writhing for our entertainment," will serve to make this commentary notable
too. And he'll continue writhing to the end, further leaving us puzzled as
to who that imposter was through the first 14 episodes of the season.


> Illyria quickly emerges as one of the show’s most
> memorable creations with her ability to bend time leading to two cool
> and, more importantly, creative action sequences.

A number of things get interesting again in AtS as it runs to the end, but
Illyria is the element that really excited me and made me truly bemoan the
lack of a season six. I wanted to find out what would happen to her. And
Fred for that matter - the intrusion of Fred's memories seem to insistent
and powerful not to have a big role in the future.

Joss does seem to like stories of fallen gods in human bodies. But instead
of the insane and vile versions of the past, this time we get one that's
smart and strangely earning sympathy. The tantalizing glimpses of Illyria
adapting to her diminished(?) fate is some of my favorite material in the
AtS run. And it curiously also leads to my identifying with Wesley more
than anytime in his BtVS/AtS run.


> The denouement
> might have been an anticlimax in lesser hands, but “Shells” is working
> hard enough to prime the audience for it that I think it pretty much
> works.

Having Illyria ask Wesley to guide her and then having him accept is just
awesome in my book - awesome for both. It simultaneously captures the
greatest strength and greatest vulnerability of both characters. It's a
perfect start of a relationship that should (if only it had been allowed)
forever be unclear whether they support each other or are merely enablers.


> Finally, there’s that montage set to song, the last of the
> series (I think)… well, have I called any of the episode-closing
> montages my favorite yet? If so I didn’t mean it, because this is my
> favorite. They found the perfect song for taking a step back to say
> goodbye to Fred (driving off hopefully into her bright future – damn
> you, Whedon). I backed up and re-watched it a few times this time
> through.

"We cling to what is gone." The montage is of everybody sadly musing.
Presumably about Fred, but actual content left to our own imagination. The
one who didn't know Fred - Illyria - is first shown touching her former
casket - the only physical connection to her old world. Then looking up.
(The transcript says looking at Fred's office.) And the scene shifts to the
final one of Fred driving off from home. My imagination takes the sequence
as one of those memory fragments going off in Illyria's head and playing the
ensuing scene to her.


> Rating: Excellent (up from Good)

Illyria: My last Qwa'ha Xahn was taller.

Funny line. I'm not sure what a "Qwa'ha Xahn" is (or if that's how it's
really spelled), but I have this sense that Illyria imagines selecting
Wesley as her new Qwa'ha Xahn.

Anyway, brief props to the Gunn story that well earns a lot of attention -
it's just that there's all this other great stuff too. A strong Excellent
for me.


> Season Five, Episode 17: "Underneath"

> This one feels kinda tedious to me for some reason.

I think it's because the hell dimension is mostly high concept with little
substance. I do like Gunn's decision though.


> It’s not that
> it’s in any way bad – it‘s actually pretty good – but I’d call it the
> weak link of this run falling between “Shells” and “Origin.”

Agreed.


> The
> holding dimension has some nice imagery, even if I don’t know if it
> means much of anything, whereas the stuff they learn after going to
> all the trouble of bringing Lindsey back still underwhelms me a
> little, especially given that we don’t see him again until the end.

There's no fixing the abandonment of his big ploy with Spike back in You're
Welcome. If that weren't a problem, I don't think this would be a problem.
By emphasizing the Senior Partners as his target (or target audience), and
now owing Angel a favor, I suppose the reunion with Lindsey does serve to
make their later alliance seem more plausible.


> “Underneath” has some good moments like Lorne’s monologue and
> Hamilton’s extended entrance (I quite like the whole defending-the-
> fort story thread),

I'm not sure whether I like it, but I do find it interesting how diminished
Eve seems this episode. Especially in contrast to Hamilton. Tiny to huge.
Casual dress to business suit. They're really emphasizing Eve's fall. Even
Lindsey sort of teases her about being mortal.


> and it’s a pretty good Gunn episode. I just have
> very little to say about it.
> Rating: Good

Good is where I rate it too. Moderately so. It made a big impression the
first time I saw it, but has been slightly dull since. There are elements
that still stand out to me as special.

Angel: Gunn, you paid a high price for what's in that brain, so use it.

Angel pushing Gunn to stop feeling sorry for himself is probably the episode
highlight for me. It's good in the way that it moves Gunn, but of course
it's more about Angel. Never ending opportunity for atonement is Angel's
philosophy. The significance of this comes clear in a couple episodes from
here when Illyria scolds Angel much the same way.

Illyria: So much power here, and you quibble at its price.

I love the Illyria element in this run of four episodes, but ultimately they
really focus their impact upon Angel, who is the one who comes out the back
end with steel in his eyes. Illyria will provide the prompt in Time Bomb
for Angel to finally recognize who he has to be, but the essence of that
starts coming clear here.

Lorne: Where's Gunn? Angel?
Angel: He, uh, he stayed behind.
Lorne: Stayed behind? But you never leave a...or...I guess we do. That's
what we do now.

I mentioned never ending opportunity for atonement. The essence of that is
Angel knowing that he'll never stop sinning. It's not just his Angelus past
beating him down. Angelus is still with him when he acts today. Perversely
that makes it easier for him to make the hard decision - Angel style.


> Season Five, Episode 18: "Origin"

> I think I’ve already mentioned this, but I’m glad to see the _Mad Men_
> acclaim supporting my contention that Vincent Kartheiser is a pretty
> damn great actor, and this episode gives him a chance to put a
> different spin on Connor.

I haven't seen that show. I will say that I seem to always go into this
episode quite ready to hate it. (Not being a Connor fan.) And then, damn
it, it wins me over anyway. Mainly because of the version of Connor that
shows up. It kind of blows me away.


> Now, I was wondering whether I’d need to
> downgrade my rating for “Origin” as it ambled along in an enjoyable
> but indulgent sort of way. Then it hit its climax, and no, no
> downgrade. This is one of those completions of something I’d thought
> was already complete,

It works on that level for Connor personally, but I think it's more
important for bringing some order back to this season of AtS. It's kind of
neat how it bares the illusion of what brought them to W&H while
demonstrating that just maybe their sacrifice had been worthwhile after all.
Connor not only got to live a better life, but also had become so strong as
to be able to readily withstand the revelation of truth.

Perversely, the memory spell's greatest mercy had been laid upon Wesley.
And it's he that's devastated by it's end. The rush of old scene fragments
as the memories flood back in is pretty neat all around. But it's the
Wesley pieces that make me cringe at the horror of the truth revealed.

> with Connor being restored to what he could be
> now that he’s been given the chance to handle it, and it’s a story
> that couldn’t have been told properly without most of a season of
> something else around to separate it from “Home.” The way Fred ends
> up triggering Wesley’s crisis of faith is something I hadn’t expected
> or anything, but makes great sense. Then even already knowing how
> it’ll end, the confrontation outside the isolation chamber is
> amazingly intense, rivaling the first time Wes lost faith in his
> boss. My one issue originally was the lack of fallout, and now I
> think I didn’t fully appreciate the way Wes reacts to getting his
> memory back, deliberately making a decision to endorse Angel’s
> choice. It helps that Drew’s writing throughout “Origin” is top-
> notch, from its dead-on Sahjhan to all those lines of dialogue with
> unobtrusive but clever double meanings. I have this weird thing with
> Mr. Goddard where I can’t quite get over that he’s the guy who wrote
> “Selfless” on his first time out, and will probably never be able to
> match it, but this is one of his masterpieces.

The little thing that always sells the episode for me is the way Connor
briefly takes on the old feral look after the memories come back. It double
emphasizes the impact of his later announcement that this fighting thing
isn't for him.


> Rating: Excellent

Excellent for me too - and I'm always surprised by that. This does bring
completion to Connor's story for me. I wish his final line had forever
been, "You gotta do what you can to protect your family. I learned that from
my father." I'm not so keen on his final return to the series.

Illyria: I've been hitting the half-breed. He makes noise.

There are a ton of cool and amusing lines this episode. Goddard has his
way.

Connor: I guess I've always had a thing for older women.
Angel: They were supposed to fix that.

Heh. But I suspect the late episode scene between Illyria and Wesley has
Joss's fingerprints on it. As I understand it, the concept of Illyria was
at least in part drawn from Joss's observation of Amy Acker's skill during
weekend Shakespeare readings at Joss's home. AA often gives a Shakespearian
feel to her readings of Illyria. This is one of those places.


> Season Five, Episode 19: "Time Bomb"

> This one improved on second viewing. It’s a clever puzzle, full of
> unexpected reversals and stuff that doesn’t mean what you originally
> thought it did (notice a theme with the best Wesley episodes?) It’s
> equally successful as food for the left brain with the chronology to
> unravel and the right brain with the high-octane sequences in the
> training room, especially the vampire dusting. The weakest link of TB
> is still the end for me (other than Spike’s line about Illyria pre-
> and post-depowering). Illyria’s big speech is way too droning to hold
> my attention, and completely submerges the intended money moment
> (which I’ve been lead to believe is “fighting to hold on to what you
> were - it's
> destroying you"). The result is that the ending seems to come out of
> nowhere and be more confusing than portentous. Yeah, I know we’re not
> supposed to know the whole story yet, but a smoother bridge would have
> been appreciated as the series moves, uninterrupted by any horribly
> misconceived or awkwardly juxtaposed interludes, into its next
> episode, “Power Play.”

Uh, well, I think the money line of the episode is, "If you want to win a
war, you must serve no master but your ambition," delivered a little earlier
by Illyria - the line Angel repeats to Wesley a little later.

Another good one along the same line is, "A true ruler is as moral as a
hurricane, empty but for the force of his gale."

Or perhaps the strongest one is the one I referenced in Underneath. "So
much power here, and you quibble at its price."

It's all a lot like Giles in S7 talking about how generals win wars. (Much
better applied here.) Utterly ruthless. And one of the ways Angel can
really be Angel is to be utterly ruthless.

Whatever it is Angel and team thought they were doing at W&H, they were
actually attempting to fight the power - and being corrupted by it instead.
Angel's "epiphany" is that the only thing you can do from the inside is to
truly wield the power. He stops trying to change W&H. Instead he chooses
to use it as it is.

I believe that's the point of the end. It seems clear to me.

Tied in with this is a kind of reversal of roles among the Angel team.
Angel had been the one plagued with doubts while his team was gung-ho on the
reforming of W&H. Now his team has lost all of its belief, but suddenly
Angel is carrying the W&H banner.


> Rating: Good (up from Decent)

I love this episode. One of my favorites in all AtS. Intriguing and
exciting. When Illyria kills everybody I gasp. So fast. So dead. (In my
more perverse moods I'd actually kind of like the series to end like that.)
There are little things I get a charge out of - like a "liberated" Wesley
feeling free to lie to Angel as necessary. (Of course Angel will return the
favor yet again. It's kind of like an open marriage now where they can
cheat at will.) And I really like how Wesley's obsession with Illyria is
moving beyond merely looking like Fred. He can't help but be fascinated by
and drawn to the entity that is Illyria. At times he sounds almost
worshipful himself. Yet in saving her he knows that he's exacting a form of
retribution in the process. And it's satisfying.

It's just a cool episode all the way around.

What's an organic cola anyway?

Excellent


> Additional comments on S5D5: I sometimes spend more time than seems
> appropriate trying to figure out Harmony in late S5. Especially when
> she’s sitting with an injured Gunn and doing an amazing impression of
> ability to be not completely self-centered. Evil and vapid as she is,
> she could have belonged in this place.

I always notice the scene with Gunn as out of place - although she also has
a pensive moment in the Shells montage. I don't know if they were trying to
grow her character - or if she was just the only one available to talk to
Gunn then. I think it's an aberration. She gets her cheerful evil on again
in the end.


OBS

> Angel: Gunn, you paid a high price for what's in that brain, so use it.

i dont think gunnwears a suit after this

the suit was about gunn being somebody to other people
an appeal to his vanity and pride

once he learns the price of that he abandons the vanity
and its about what gunn can actually do to help people

> Illyria: So much power here, and you quibble at its price.

in a couple of episodes anne offers an alternative way to win
winning isnt about defeating your enemy
winning is about living your own life

if winning is living forever nobody wins
if winning is living as best you can in an imperfect world everyone can win

> The little thing that always sells the episode for me is the way Connor
> briefly takes on the old feral look after the memories come back. It double
> emphasizes the impact of his later announcement that this fighting thing
> isn't for him.

i think people are more than biological machines
whose functioning is decided solely by memory encoding past stimuli

it bothered me when connor was denied the possibility of atonement
because the memory of his crimes was deleted

so i like that he was aware of what he had done
he had an opportunity to decide what to do about
(apparently prefering pacifism)

i dont think atonement requires pain and punishment
especially when it is a child suffereing horrendous child abuse
but it does require acknowledging what you chose to do in the past
and choosing to be a better person in the future
(not being a better a person but at least trying to be better)

so i like that connor had a chance to heal from his abuse
and then to acknowledge what he had done
and process it and decide to turn away from that

> > Additional comments on S5D5: I sometimes spend more time than seems
> > appropriate trying to figure out Harmony in late S5. Especially when
> > she’s sitting with an injured Gunn and doing an amazing impression of
> > ability to be not completely self-centered. Evil and vapid as she is,
> > she could have belonged in this place.
>
> I always notice the scene with Gunn as out of place - although she also has
> a pensive moment in the Shells montage. I don't know if they were trying to
> grow her character - or if she was just the only one available to talk to
> Gunn then. I think it's an aberration. She gets her cheerful evil on again
> in the end.

in a buffy episode vampire harmony said something like
they were supposed to be unholy creatures

it never really seems like harmony is really evil
she knows shes supposed to be evil
but her nonbeating heart never really seems to be in it

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven

"mariposas rand mair fheal" <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-AFCC9B.19280527062008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> Angel: Gunn, you paid a high price for what's in that brain, so use it.
>
> i dont think gunnwears a suit after this
>
> the suit was about gunn being somebody to other people
> an appeal to his vanity and pride
>
> once he learns the price of that he abandons the vanity
> and its about what gunn can actually do to help people

As I recall, you're correct. But I think that moment is as much about Angel
as it is about Gunn, and Angel is moving another direction. At the end of
Time Bomb the two are in very different places. Gunn is quite confused.


>> Illyria: So much power here, and you quibble at its price.
>
> in a couple of episodes anne offers an alternative way to win
> winning isnt about defeating your enemy
> winning is about living your own life
>
> if winning is living forever nobody wins
> if winning is living as best you can in an imperfect world everyone can
> win

I'm not sure what that has to do with the quote, which I see as instruction
to Angel about the role he has taken on at W&H, but I won't argue with your
point in itself. Illyria is more interesting to me than prior god figures
like Glory and Jasmine because Illyria is able to adapt. Barely able and
painfully so. But all 3 do touch upon the incompatability of God and human
as one. Illyria is the first to accept giving something up to survive as
human.

I've always thought that the story of Christ is more interesting if looked
upon in a similar fashion, where God cannot grasp his creation until
becoming human himself. God's journey of discovery and humility, with the
final epiphany on the cross being that, of course, humans can't grasp God
either. Forgive them father, for they know not what they do. How can you
condemn people for merely being what they are - human? You might as well
curse a rock for being hard. Death would presumably be his penalty for
experiencing humanity, though it gets a bit muddled with rebirth and all...
Joss muddles that stuff too.

Of course, not being Christian, I'm more drawn to the story for interesting
narrative possibilities than spiritual enlightentment, so who am I to say
what's true? But as a purely literary piece, that's the kind of direction
I'd go with it.


>> The little thing that always sells the episode for me is the way Connor
>> briefly takes on the old feral look after the memories come back. It
>> double
>> emphasizes the impact of his later announcement that this fighting thing
>> isn't for him.
>
> i think people are more than biological machines
> whose functioning is decided solely by memory encoding past stimuli
>
> it bothered me when connor was denied the possibility of atonement
> because the memory of his crimes was deleted
>
> so i like that he was aware of what he had done
> he had an opportunity to decide what to do about
> (apparently prefering pacifism)

I mostly agree there, but when you speak of Connor being denied the
possibility of atonement at the end of S4, I wonder what possibility he
would have without the spell. He didn't know then how to make this kind of
choice - or even what such a choice is or means. The spell allowed him to
acquire the foundation for such a choice. Within the AtS story, isn't it
more accurate that the spell is what gave him the possibility of atonement?


> i dont think atonement requires pain and punishment
> especially when it is a child suffereing horrendous child abuse
> but it does require acknowledging what you chose to do in the past
> and choosing to be a better person in the future
> (not being a better a person but at least trying to be better)
>
> so i like that connor had a chance to heal from his abuse
> and then to acknowledge what he had done
> and process it and decide to turn away from that

It's one of my favorite moments in AtS. It makes this episode sing and
redeems the conclusion of S4 - indeed Connor's whole life - far better than
the family dinner scene did. Which is quite an achievement in my book since
I think the conclusion of S4 was a minor miracle in itself.


>> > Additional comments on S5D5: I sometimes spend more time than seems
>> > appropriate trying to figure out Harmony in late S5. Especially when
>> > she’s sitting with an injured Gunn and doing an amazing impression of
>> > ability to be not completely self-centered. Evil and vapid as she is,
>> > she could have belonged in this place.
>>
>> I always notice the scene with Gunn as out of place - although she also
>> has
>> a pensive moment in the Shells montage. I don't know if they were trying
>> to
>> grow her character - or if she was just the only one available to talk to
>> Gunn then. I think it's an aberration. She gets her cheerful evil on
>> again
>> in the end.
>
> in a buffy episode vampire harmony said something like
> they were supposed to be unholy creatures
>
> it never really seems like harmony is really evil
> she knows shes supposed to be evil
> but her nonbeating heart never really seems to be in it

She's a different vampire and I'm as inclined to indulge her foibles as the
next guy. But really, as much as she sucks at being evil, she's worse at
being good.

OBS

> I mostly agree there, but when you speak of Connor being denied the
> possibility of atonement at the end of S4, I wonder what possibility he
> would have without the spell. He didn't know then how to make this kind of
> choice - or even what such a choice is or means. The spell allowed him to
> acquire the foundation for such a choice. Within the AtS story, isn't it
> more accurate that the spell is what gave him the possibility of atonement?

if his story had ended with season 4
it wouldve been a bad ending

instead it ends well

at least until he gets sucked into hell with the rest of los angeles

> She's a different vampire and I'm as inclined to indulge her foibles as the
> next guy. But really, as much as she sucks at being evil, she's worse at
> being good.

harmony is running for california governor in 2010

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven

On Jun 27, 8:06 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:7f159f74-163f-4bc4-aa20-7c62050cf42e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > A reminder:  These threads spend all their time making out with other
> > vampires, like in Anne Rice novels.
>
> You know, I still haven't read an Anne Rice novel.

Nor I. I was waved away from her when I was younger based on a single
annonymous internet person's description of her work as "romance
novels disguised as fantasy," and never really looked back.

> > A few have mentioned this being when the
> > whole season comes together, and we all know how much fun that is.
>
> In retrospect I'm not sure that it comes together exactly.  The situation at
> W&H hasn't changed so much, but everything seems to have finally been
> granted some meaning.  Nothing like a sudden death in the family to stir
> things up I suppose.

Fred's death gives pretty much the whole closing arc the jump-start it
needs. I recall that when I was reading those comic books, Angel
gives a voice-over about his fighting back that begins "it started
with a girl."

> I'm not sure whether I like it, but I do find it interesting how diminished
> Eve seems this episode.  Especially in contrast to Hamilton.  Tiny tohuge.
> Casual dress to business suit.  They're really emphasizing Eve's fall.  Even
> Lindsey sort of teases her about being mortal.

I don't think I like it much. This (and S5 in general) is one of
those times where the gender imbalance on ATS is also annoying me a
little bit. Other than Illyria who's only female on a technicality,
all the other women on the show are marginalized out of existence
about now, including the pseudo-villains like Eve and Harmony. Maybe
that's just a taste thing. Again, amused by the commentary about
Joss's role in defining Hamilton as a character - the writers
originally had a totally different vision for the new Liason.

> It's kind of
> neat how it bares the illusion of what brought them to W&H while
> demonstrating that just maybe their sacrifice had been worthwhile after all.
> Connor not only got to live a better life, but also had become so strong as
> to be able to readily withstand the revelation of truth.
>
> Perversely, the memory spell's greatest mercy had been laid upon Wesley.
> And it's he that's devastated by it's end.  The rush of old scene fragments
> as the memories flood back in is pretty neat all around.  But it's the
> Wesley pieces that make me cringe at the horror of the truth revealed.

The understanding goes along with the horror, though, and that's
enough to keep him from devoting his energies trying to fix things
that can't be changed. I'm a fan of truth coming out, but more
importantly, I'm a fan of finally getting S4 Wesley back instead of
the imposter.

My brother felt the same way as you that "Origin" shoud have been
Connor's final appearance. I think it's a big deal to Angel to have
him there "Awakening" style at the end, though, and I'm willing to
allow him that. Not a huge fan of the coffee shop, on the other hand,
but I guess they felt they had to set up the latter scene.

-AOQ