A reminder: Uh, do you want me to point my crossbow at this thread?
’Cause I think it’s gonna start talking about ants again.

ANGEL
Season Five, Episode 20: “The Girl In Question”
Writers: Steven S. DeKnight and Drew Goddard
Director: Daivd Greenwalt

One of the perks of leaving anonymous scrawlings on the Internets is
the luxury of making blanket statements without needing to back them
up. It’s an often abused privilege, but those of us who use it
sparingly are fine, I think. So, for instance, I can say that the
Italy portions of “The Girl In Question” are the TV equivalent of
being served a **** steak lightly sautéed in **** oil and smothered in
a ****-based sauce, served with a heaping side of ****, which a cow
has wandered by and defecated on. And although multiple people whose
opinions I respect on this NG have indicated that they wouldn’t agree
with that assessment, it is simply self-evident as far I’m concerned.
The saving grace of TGIQ, other than a few funny flashbacks and such,
is the story about that other girl back at W&H. I wasn’t sure what it
all meant, but there’s no denying how powerful it is to first see
Illyria as Fred. I think the point may well be to raise more
questions than answers. The question of how much Fred there is left
in this new creature hasn’t really been raised like this before now,
and it sparks a whole bunch of new possible directions for this
story. Too bad there isn’t more show in which to explore them.
Rating: Weak


Season Five, Episode 21: “Power Play”
Writer: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner

This one falls a little bit in my estimation. I wrote that I
appreciate the scope of what it’s trying to do, and in how Angel’s
plan of action is so grounded in the character’s nature. The play,
though, can’t help but feel forced and rushed. Much of the dialogue
has the volume turned way up and the nuance turned off completely;
maybe it’s intentional that we don’t buy Angel’s grotesquely over the
top speechifying, but that just leaves us waiting all episode for the
writers to show their hand. Also, apparently Wesley et al need to go
from zero to sixty in their hostility within a few lines. One
interesting topic that came up last time was the question of whether
or not Angel gives his friends much say in the final arc – is he
making up for the past by presenting them with their options, or is he
molding the situation so as to effectively takes the choice away from
them? I don’t really find a reason to conclude that the latter was
the intention, and think that if it comes off that way, it’s a
weakness in the writing rather than a conscious bit of storytelling.
In any case, my working theory is that the main purpose of “Power
Play” is to get all the objectionable parts of the final arc out in
the open so that they can’t contaminate the finale. The viewer has a
week to absorb and accept the implications of Angel’s strike on the
Senior Partners, and is now armed with the realization that we go into
“Not Fade Away” with the ongoing storyline we’ve got, not the one we’d
like to have…
Rating: Decent


Season Five, Episode 22: “Not Fade Away”
Writers: Jeffrey Bell and Joss Whedon
Director: Jeffrey Bell

… and given that setup, we can finish strong. Now, I think a series
finale naturally inspires a bias one way or the other in most viewers,
whether they want them to or not. Some can’t help but notice every
way in which it falls short of their dream ending. Some are anxious
for it to satisfy their sense of closure, and will forgive lots of
problems as long as it gives them a few evocative moments to remember
the show by. I fall in the latter category; I tend to be forgiving of
endings, and go out of my way to look for fitting nods backward and
memorable final images.

So given that I’m not a totally objective viewer, I ask the question –
is it just me, or is “Not Fade Away” the perfect finale? That’s
partially rhetorical, since everything has flaws. But given the
situation the episode has been handed, I can’t think of anything major
that it should have done differently. (Other than maybe more money
for the fight scenes, but that’s rarely a major focus of the
Buffyverse. And I’d have enjoyed a brief appearance by Faith, but I
kinda feel that way about every episode.) It’s got a poignant
reflective moment for every main character, a few twists along the way
to the denoument (did *anyone* see the bit with Lorne and Lindsey
coming?), an absolutely crushing death scene, Angel triumphing in a
way that plays off his core contradictions and getting to bask in some
true happiness, before bringing us back one more time to an alley at
night during a torrential downpour, where all the best endings
happen. Reading some of the reactions as it originally aired, I see a
few “IS NOT A ENDING!!” complaints, but most people seem to fall into
the “of course it is” camp, partiucularly now that we’ve had a few
years to sit on it. Excellent work, all.
Rating: Excellent


Additional comments on S5D6: Some people objected to Andrew’s final
scene in TGIQ, feeling like the show was suggesting that his
ambiguously gay-or-asexual phase was just a silly thing that he needed
to grow out of. Joss posted on Whedonesque a few months ago saying
that he’d originally specified that Andrew should be greeted by a half-
dozen or so Italian sophisticates of mixed gender, and was always
annoyed that they changed it (he says he was somewhere else the day
that scene was filmed). So, uh, there.

In my averaged number-crunching, Season Five ties exactly with S1 and
S4 In the middle of the ATS pack, with S3 in front and S2 in back.
Seems about right. It has a respectable percentage of episodes that I
like, and is also – here’s some truly useless trivia – the only season
anywhere in the Buffyverse that has more Weak episodes than Decent
ones in my book. So, a mixed bag. I generally have to side with the
consensus about the lack of momentum in the early going, and about how
S5 got about as good as ATS gets with the late-season run, and with
the puppets. I questioned the decision to shift to the more episodic
storytelling going into it the first time, and still do. For this
particular show, the convoluted internal mythology is what it does
best. I’d further submit that for veteran viewers, S5 almost has to
seem like a step down. While for the new audience they were trying to
draw, the entire premise of the Wolfram & Hart C.E.O. deal rests so
heavily on the knowledge of past events that I can’t imagine it
holding much appeal. But I guess the ratings were higher for S5, so
what do I know?

As has already become clear, I love _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ for the
show it grew into, whiles despite its inconsistency, I love _Angel_
for the show it aspired to be and the heights it achieved on its best
weeks. Well, I recently realized that, given the respective
protagonists of these two series, that’s just about perfect.

And that’s about it. This brings us to the end of the complete Mutant
Enemy canon. It’s certainly a relief to say that in a short time
(relatively speaking), that will no longer be the case, assuming Joss
keeps the ME name. For now, I’ve said my piece, and based on both my
level of enthusiasm and the amount of discussion these threads have
generated lately, it’s clear that play time’s over. For the last time
in what’s been an amazing and fun Buffyverse project, thanks for
reading and contributing. Let’s go (back) to work.

-The arbiter has left the building-

> Season Five, Episode 20: ³The Girl In Question²

> sparingly are fine, I think. So, for instance, I can say that the
> Italy portions of ³The Girl In Question² are the TV equivalent of

its a joke

a girl called death is another joke episode
and in the prisoner episode order used by kteh it is also antepenultimate

i think it serves the same purpose as the girl in question
both episodes summarize their series with humor
and give a pause before the two part emotional finale

> Season Five, Episode 21: ³Power Play²

> This one falls a little bit in my estimation. I wrote that I
> appreciate the scope of what it¹s trying to do, and in how Angel¹s
> plan of action is so grounded in the character¹s nature. The play,
> though, can¹t help but feel forced and rushed. Much of the dialogue
> has the volume turned way up and the nuance turned off completely;
> maybe it¹s intentional that we don¹t buy Angel¹s grotesquely over the
> top speechifying, but that just leaves us waiting all episode for the

both series have a timing problem
they know where they want to get in a season
knowing the start and finish
but the in between seems haphazard
often long pauses and then rushing too many things in one episode

> from zero to sixty in their hostility within a few lines. One
> interesting topic that came up last time was the question of whether
> or not Angel gives his friends much say in the final arc ­ is he
> making up for the past by presenting them with their options, or is he
> molding the situation so as to effectively takes the choice away from

there seems to be some kind of shift in the season
at the beginning they appear free to leave anytime they want
but at the end it appears they are basically enslaved
unless they do a john brown style revolution

> Season Five, Episode 22: ³Not Fade Away²

> situation the episode has been handed, I can¹t think of anything major
> that it should have done differently. (Other than maybe more money

i like annes response
you dont defeat evil by fighting it
you defeat it by ignoring

> to the denoument (did *anyone* see the bit with Lorne and Lindsey
> coming?), an absolutely crushing death scene, Angel triumphing in a

i see lorne as one of the most tragic characters
he escaped from hell to heaven
but everyone in heaven wants to turn it into hell
so lorne can see what people can be
and what they instead choose to be
and he has to constantly anethesize himself with alcohol

> happen. Reading some of the reactions as it originally aired, I see a
> few ³IS NOT A ENDING!!² complaints, but most people seem to fall into

there is angel - after the fall

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven

On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:24:06 -0700 (PDT), Arbitrar Of Quality
<tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote:

>And that’s about it. This brings us to the end of the complete Mutant
>Enemy canon. It’s certainly a relief to say that in a short time
>(relatively speaking), that will no longer be the case, assuming Joss
>keeps the ME name.

The front page of drhorrible.com lists it as a Mutant
Enemy production. So, in a *very* short time.
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?

George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

On Jul 6, 7:43 pm, mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fh...@yahoo.com>
wrote:


> there is angel - after the fall


Which is awesome imho. My fav. part of After the Fall? Definatly
having Lorne being a lord of paridise!

Can't wait for SPIKE-After the Fall, which I think is going to be just
a few issues, but still, it's supposed to explain everything between
Not Fade Away and when we first see Spike in Angel-After the Fall.
Exciting stuff!

Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Uh, do you want me to point my crossbow at this thread?
> ’Cause I think it’s gonna start talking about ants again.
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 20: “The Girl In Question”
> Writers: Steven S. DeKnight and Drew Goddard
> Director: Daivd Greenwalt
>
> One of the perks of leaving anonymous scrawlings on the Internets is
> the luxury of making blanket statements without needing to back them
> up. It’s an often abused privilege, but those of us who use it
> sparingly are fine, I think. So, for instance, I can say that the
> Italy portions of “The Girl In Question” are the TV equivalent of
> being served a **** steak lightly sautéed in **** oil and smothered in
> a ****-based sauce, served with a heaping side of ****, which a cow
> has wandered by and defecated on.

Oh look. AOQ is dissing the humourous part of the episode. What a surprise.

> And although multiple people whose
> opinions I respect on this NG have indicated that they wouldn’t agree
> with that assessment, it is simply self-evident as far I’m concerned.
> The saving grace of TGIQ, other than a few funny flashbacks and such,
> is the story about that other girl back at W&H. I wasn’t sure what it
> all meant, but there’s no denying how powerful it is to first see
> Illyria as Fred.

That is certainly the best part of the episode. Not just from the point
of view of the questions raised about how much memory is related to
idendity. The effect on Wes is pretty freaky as well. But I like the
humour of the Rome part as well, so its all good.

> Rating: Weak

Good for me. In fact it has risen a little for me on this viewing. It's
now my 30th favourite AtS episode, 14th best in season 5 (last time was
36th and 16th).


>
> Season Five, Episode 22: “Not Fade Away”
> Writers: Jeffrey Bell and Joss Whedon
> Director: Jeffrey Bell
>
> … and given that setup, we can finish strong. Now, I think a series
> finale naturally inspires a bias one way or the other in most viewers,
> whether they want them to or not. Some can’t help but notice every
> way in which it falls short of their dream ending. Some are anxious
> for it to satisfy their sense of closure, and will forgive lots of
> problems as long as it gives them a few evocative moments to remember
> the show by. I fall in the latter category; I tend to be forgiving of
> endings, and go out of my way to look for fitting nods backward and
> memorable final images.

Me too. There is a huge betrayal of the wisdom Angel came to in
Epiphany, that the Good Fight doesn't consist of seeking an apocalyptic
battle with Evil, but of simply doing good wherver one can, in the face
of Evil. But what kind of series finale would that have made? There is
at least a nod to the Epiphany philosophy in the appearance of Anne,
evicently having been doing all along what a practitioner of that
philosophy would have been doing.

For me, the highlight is Wesley's death, and Illyria's reaction (both
during and after).

> Rating: Excellent

Excellent for me too. It's my 2nd favourite AtS episode, 2nd best in
season 5 (unchanged from last time).


> In my averaged number-crunching, Season Five ties exactly with S1 and
> S4 In the middle of the ATS pack, with S3 in front and S2 in back.

For me it is easily the leader of the AtS pack. Previously it was neck
and neck with AtS 2, but now a large gap has opened between them (that
is less to do with revised ratings than with the fact that last year I
revised all my TV episode ratings to make them consistent with my movie
ratings. That meant revising them downwards, over a greater range, and
the practical effect was to increase the difference between the
Superlative and the mid-Good, and between the mid-Decent and the Bad,
while leaving the difference between the mid-Good and mid-Decent
relatively unchanged. There has not been any change in the order in
which I rate the seasons as a result, but many of the gaps between
seasons have greatly increased or decreased. AtS 5 now seems to me to
belong at the Buffyverse top table, along with the Holy Trinity of BtVS
1, 2 & 3, rather than mid table with AtS 2 and BtVS 4, 5, & 6).

> Seems about right. It has a respectable percentage of episodes that I
> like, and is also – here’s some truly useless trivia – the only season
> anywhere in the Buffyverse that has more Weak episodes than Decent
> ones in my book.

That would be the difference then between your ratings and mine - I
don't rate any AtS 5 episode as Weak.

> So, a mixed bag. I generally have to side with the
> consensus about the lack of momentum in the early going, and about how
> S5 got about as good as ATS gets with the late-season run, and with
> the puppets. I questioned the decision to shift to the more episodic
> storytelling going into it the first time, and still do. For this
> particular show, the convoluted internal mythology is what it does
> best. I’d further submit that for veteran viewers, S5 almost has to
> seem like a step down. While for the new audience they were trying to
> draw, the entire premise of the Wolfram & Hart C.E.O. deal rests so
> heavily on the knowledge of past events that I can’t imagine it
> holding much appeal. But I guess the ratings were higher for S5, so
> what do I know?

Indeed


> And that’s about it. This brings us to the end of the complete Mutant
> Enemy canon. It’s certainly a relief to say that in a short time
> (relatively speaking), that will no longer be the case, assuming Joss
> keeps the ME name. For now, I’ve said my piece, and based on both my
> level of enthusiasm and the amount of discussion these threads have
> generated lately, it’s clear that play time’s over. For the last time
> in what’s been an amazing and fun Buffyverse project, thanks for
> reading and contributing. Let’s go (back) to work.
>
> -The arbiter has left the building-

It's been fun. And certainly has kept the Buffyverse groups going beyond
what might otherwise have been their useby dates. Though there is still
an active Shakespeare group, and from what I understand there have been
no new plays from him for even longer than 4 years...


Apteryx

Apteryx <apteryx@xtra.co.nz> wrote in news:g4viua$l31$1@aioe.org:

> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Uh, do you want me to point my crossbow at this
>> thread? ’Cause I think it’s gonna start talking about ants
>> again.
>>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Five, Episode 20: “The Girl In Question”
>> Writers: Steven S. DeKnight and Drew Goddard
>> Director: Daivd Greenwalt
>
>The saving grace of TGIQ, other than a few funny
>> flashbacks and such, is the story about that other girl back at
>> W&H. I wasn’t sure what it all meant, but there’s no denying
>> how powerful it is to first see Illyria as Fred.
>
> That is certainly the best part of the episode. Not just from
> the point of view of the questions raised about how much memory
> is related to idendity.

And the "After the Fall" comics are continuing to explore the
Fred/Illyria issue.

--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

In article <g4viua$l31$1@aioe.org>, Apteryx <apteryx@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Uh, do you want me to point my crossbow at this thread?
> > ¹Cause I think it¹s gonna start talking about ants again.
> >
> > ANGEL
> > Season Five, Episode 20: ³The Girl In Question²
> > Writers: Steven S. DeKnight and Drew Goddard
> > Director: Daivd Greenwalt
> >
> > One of the perks of leaving anonymous scrawlings on the Internets is
> > the luxury of making blanket statements without needing to back them
> > up. It¹s an often abused privilege, but those of us who use it
> > sparingly are fine, I think. So, for instance, I can say that the
> > Italy portions of ³The Girl In Question² are the TV equivalent of
> > being served a **** steak lightly sautéed in **** oil and smothered in
> > a ****-based sauce, served with a heaping side of ****, which a cow
> > has wandered by and defecated on.
>
> Oh look. AOQ is dissing the humourous part of the episode. What a surprise.

The episode didn't have a humorous part. It just had a stupid part.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c313db4-f91d-4c95-b73b-5448bf768ff0@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
A reminder: Uh, do you want me to point my crossbow at this thread?
’Cause I think it’s gonna start talking about ants again.

ANGEL
Season Five, Episode 20: “The Girl In Question”
Writers: Steven S. DeKnight and Drew Goddard
Director: Daivd Greenwalt

One of the perks of leaving anonymous scrawlings on the Internets is
the luxury of making blanket statements without needing to back them
up. It’s an often abused privilege, but those of us who use it
sparingly are fine, I think. So, for instance, I can say that the
Italy portions of “The Girl In Question” are the TV equivalent of
being served a **** steak lightly sautéed in **** oil and smothered in
a ****-based sauce, served with a heaping side of ****, which a cow
has wandered by and defecated on. And although multiple people whose
opinions I respect on this NG have indicated that they wouldn’t agree
with that assessment, it is simply self-evident as far I’m concerned.
The saving grace of TGIQ, other than a few funny flashbacks and such,
is the story about that other girl back at W&H. I wasn’t sure what it
all meant, but there’s no denying how powerful it is to first see
Illyria as Fred. I think the point may well be to raise more
questions than answers. The question of how much Fred there is left
in this new creature hasn’t really been raised like this before now,
and it sparks a whole bunch of new possible directions for this
story. Too bad there isn’t more show in which to explore them.
Rating: Weak


Season Five, Episode 21: “Power Play”
Writer: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner

This one falls a little bit in my estimation. I wrote that I
appreciate the scope of what it’s trying to do, and in how Angel’s
plan of action is so grounded in the character’s nature. The play,
though, can’t help but feel forced and rushed. Much of the dialogue
has the volume turned way up and the nuance turned off completely;
maybe it’s intentional that we don’t buy Angel’s grotesquely over the
top speechifying, but that just leaves us waiting all episode for the
writers to show their hand. Also, apparently Wesley et al need to go
from zero to sixty in their hostility within a few lines. One
interesting topic that came up last time was the question of whether
or not Angel gives his friends much say in the final arc – is he
making up for the past by presenting them with their options, or is he
molding the situation so as to effectively takes the choice away from
them? I don’t really find a reason to conclude that the latter was
the intention, and think that if it comes off that way, it’s a
weakness in the writing rather than a conscious bit of storytelling.
In any case, my working theory is that the main purpose of “Power
Play” is to get all the objectionable parts of the final arc out in
the open so that they can’t contaminate the finale. The viewer has a
week to absorb and accept the implications of Angel’s strike on the
Senior Partners, and is now armed with the realization that we go into
“Not Fade Away” with the ongoing storyline we’ve got, not the one we’d
like to have…
Rating: Decent


Season Five, Episode 22: “Not Fade Away”
Writers: Jeffrey Bell and Joss Whedon
Director: Jeffrey Bell

… and given that setup, we can finish strong. Now, I think a series
finale naturally inspires a bias one way or the other in most viewers,
whether they want them to or not. Some can’t help but notice every
way in which it falls short of their dream ending. Some are anxious
for it to satisfy their sense of closure, and will forgive lots of
problems as long as it gives them a few evocative moments to remember
the show by. I fall in the latter category; I tend to be forgiving of
endings, and go out of my way to look for fitting nods backward and
memorable final images.

So given that I’m not a totally objective viewer, I ask the question –
is it just me, or is “Not Fade Away” the perfect finale? That’s
partially rhetorical, since everything has flaws. But given the
situation the episode has been handed, I can’t think of anything major
that it should have done differently. (Other than maybe more money
for the fight scenes, but that’s rarely a major focus of the
Buffyverse. And I’d have enjoyed a brief appearance by Faith, but I
kinda feel that way about every episode.) It’s got a poignant
reflective moment for every main character, a few twists along the way
to the denoument (did *anyone* see the bit with Lorne and Lindsey
coming?), an absolutely crushing death scene, Angel triumphing in a
way that plays off his core contradictions and getting to bask in some
true happiness, before bringing us back one more time to an alley at
night during a torrential downpour, where all the best endings
happen. Reading some of the reactions as it originally aired, I see a
few “IS NOT A ENDING!!” complaints, but most people seem to fall into
the “of course it is” camp, partiucularly now that we’ve had a few
years to sit on it. Excellent work, all.
Rating: Excellent

Maybe not my FAVORITE series finale (chalk that up to "Quantam Leap"), but a
good bet for my top five. One of the few "cliffhanger" series finales. I
seem to remember there being talk of maybe doing a movie that ties
everything up from this one. I would have loved to see what season six and
beyond would have looked like.


Additional comments on S5D6: Some people objected to Andrew’s final
scene in TGIQ, feeling like the show was suggesting that his
ambiguously gay-or-asexual phase was just a silly thing that he needed
to grow out of. Joss posted on Whedonesque a few months ago saying
that he’d originally specified that Andrew should be greeted by a half-
dozen or so Italian sophisticates of mixed gender, and was always
annoyed that they changed it (he says he was somewhere else the day
that scene was filmed). So, uh, there.

OK, this thing about Andrews sexuality has been floating around since the
last story arc of BtVS's season six. Is Andrew gay or not? If you believe
Kinzy, NOBODY is 100% gay or straight, it's a matter of degree We have a guy
like Lorne who reads minds after the subject sings. Being gay is the least
strange thing Andrew could be in the Whedonverse.

In my averaged number-crunching, Season Five ties exactly with S1 and
S4 In the middle of the ATS pack, with S3 in front and S2 in back.
Seems about right. It has a respectable percentage of episodes that I
like, and is also – here’s some truly useless trivia – the only season
anywhere in the Buffyverse that has more Weak episodes than Decent
ones in my book. So, a mixed bag. I generally have to side with the
consensus about the lack of momentum in the early going, and about how
S5 got about as good as ATS gets with the late-season run, and with
the puppets. I questioned the decision to shift to the more episodic
storytelling going into it the first time, and still do. For this
particular show, the convoluted internal mythology is what it does
best. I’d further submit that for veteran viewers, S5 almost has to
seem like a step down. While for the new audience they were trying to
draw, the entire premise of the Wolfram & Hart C.E.O. deal rests so
heavily on the knowledge of past events that I can’t imagine it
holding much appeal. But I guess the ratings were higher for S5, so
what do I know?

As has already become clear, I love _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ for the
show it grew into, whiles despite its inconsistency, I love _Angel_
for the show it aspired to be and the heights it achieved on its best
weeks. Well, I recently realized that, given the respective
protagonists of these two series, that’s just about perfect.

And that’s about it. This brings us to the end of the complete Mutant
Enemy canon. It’s certainly a relief to say that in a short time
(relatively speaking), that will no longer be the case, assuming Joss
keeps the ME name. For now, I’ve said my piece, and based on both my
level of enthusiasm and the amount of discussion these threads have
generated lately, it’s clear that play time’s over. For the last time
in what’s been an amazing and fun Buffyverse project, thanks for
reading and contributing. Let’s go (back) to work.

-The arbiter has left the building-

"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c313db4-f91d-4c95-b73b-5448bf768ff0@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 20: “The Girl In Question”
>
> One of the perks of leaving anonymous scrawlings on the Internets is
> the luxury of making blanket statements without needing to back them
> up. It’s an often abused privilege, but those of us who use it
> sparingly are fine, I think. So, for instance, I can say that the
> Italy portions of “The Girl In Question” are the TV equivalent of
> being served a **** steak lightly sautéed in **** oil and smothered in
> a ****-based sauce, served with a heaping side of ****, which a cow
> has wandered by and defecated on. And although multiple people whose
> opinions I respect on this NG have indicated that they wouldn’t agree
> with that assessment, it is simply self-evident as far I’m concerned.

You've got to be you.


> The saving grace of TGIQ, other than a few funny flashbacks and such,
> is the story about that other girl back at W&H. I wasn’t sure what it
> all meant, but there’s no denying how powerful it is to first see
> Illyria as Fred. I think the point may well be to raise more
> questions than answers. The question of how much Fred there is left
> in this new creature hasn’t really been raised like this before now,
> and it sparks a whole bunch of new possible directions for this
> story. Too bad there isn’t more show in which to explore them.

I've lamented that too. I'm not sure which was creepier - having Fred
suddenly appear - complete in all evident ways - or having that Fred
suddenly speak as Illyria. But while everyone is stunned and appalled and
so on, the other underlying element to this is Illyria's desire to do such a
favor for Wesley. It's not just about the remnants of Fred and all that
portends. For this season anyway (which is all that we get), it's even more
about the changes to Illyria.

> Rating: Weak

I'm with Apteryx on this one. There's both good humor and good drama to be
found in this. I rate it Good.

But by all appearances, we're in the minority on this one. This seems to be
among the most reviled episodes of the entire series. That's always puzzled
me. The part that bothers people so much is just another comic romp in a
tradition going back at least to BB&B. (Which I know is not in its favor
for you, AOQ, but that's a pretty popular show.) I actually like this
better than BB&B myself, but that's not the point. It's just a set of gags.
Some aren't great - the chase through the streets isn't very well staged for
example. But some work well - how can you not laugh at holding a gun to the
bag with a head? And of course the classic debate over who saved the world
more... So it makes people laugh to greater or lesser degrees. I get that.
I don't get the loathing. What's to hate?

Feh. I spit on all the nay-sayers. Ptuey! We will speak of this no more.


> Season Five, Episode 21: “Power Play”

> This one falls a little bit in my estimation. I wrote that I
> appreciate the scope of what it’s trying to do, and in how Angel’s
> plan of action is so grounded in the character’s nature. The play,
> though, can’t help but feel forced and rushed. Much of the dialogue
> has the volume turned way up and the nuance turned off completely;
> maybe it’s intentional that we don’t buy Angel’s grotesquely over the
> top speechifying, but that just leaves us waiting all episode for the
> writers to show their hand. Also, apparently Wesley et al need to go
> from zero to sixty in their hostility within a few lines.

It has been suggested that the awkwardness is at least partly due to heading
towards a series close rather than a season close. Maybe. But with what
I've read of derailed future plans, I don't readily see what would have to
be done differently. Maybe the fate of Wesley and the final fight next
episode would have to be refined, but the lead-in that this episode
represents doesn't obviously point to a change in plans. I just think that
the pieces they were working to put together simply don't fit as well as
hoped and they're stuck with devices like literally stopping everything so
that Angel can explain what the hell is going on.

I'm amused at the device, but still...

The funny thing is that I think the plot is kind of interesting. It
probably reads great as a summary. Not so great in play. One of those
episodes were the ideas we draw from it are way superior to the viewing
experience in action.


> One
> interesting topic that came up last time was the question of whether
> or not Angel gives his friends much say in the final arc – is he
> making up for the past by presenting them with their options, or is he
> molding the situation so as to effectively takes the choice away from
> them? I don’t really find a reason to conclude that the latter was
> the intention, and think that if it comes off that way, it’s a
> weakness in the writing rather than a conscious bit of storytelling.

There may very well be weakness in the writing, but I still contend that
it's quite deliberate storytelling. Again, I point back to Why We Fight
with Gunn, Wesley & Fred bound and gagged, forced to watch Angel kill
Lawson - forced to watch what happens to people who fall under Angel's
wing - unable to do anything or even speak their feelings. It's one of the
most overt examples of symbolism all season. Following Angel means being
shut out, not permitted a meaningful choice, and paying for it all with your
life. The saving grace with the Lawson comparison is that, unlike Lawson,
Angel gave the team a meaningful mission at the end. But it's still Angel
deciding. Indeed, it is to a large extent the consequence of Angel's
original decision to perform the memory spell - the ultimate example of
Angel deciding for everyone.

The two episode conclusion is also constructed to roughly correspond to
Angel's S2 crisis, with him once again returning to the grand gesture while
rejecting the purity of the good fight. Included in the correspondence is
Angel coldly doing what has to be done while pushing his team away. The
biggest difference (at this point) is that where he previously ushered his
team to safety, this time he pulls them in for the finale. (I believe,
incidentally, that's his current lesson from S2. They were committed to
following him. He should have let them. Which is accurate to a point, even
if it slides over his team's resistance to his plans.)

Wesley and Gunn are to a very large extent Angel's creations. They each
represent core elements of Angel, and each learn from Angel. Wesley may be
a master of the hard decision, but he learned that from Angel most of all -
the true master. Gunn, at core, has always been about the fight. Put an
axe in his hand and there's order in the world. Angel was his perennial
role model at that. And then there's Spike, who hadn't seemed so much
Angel's creation - until this season, when considerable effort was made to
cast Spike as just that - doomed to follow Angel's footsteps to the end. In
an important sense they have all been crafted to say yes to Angel when he
asks for their sacrifice.

I believe this has been the aim of AtS all season. When Wesley accuses
Angel of sacrificing Fred for Connor's benefit, he comes to understand that
wasn't Angel's direct intent. (Though you will note that Angel's big scheme
does involve making it look like something akin to that.) But the
accusation carries much more weight than the Fred-centric view. The price
for Angel saving Connor was indeed feeding his team to the W&H beast. They
are all in peril according to Angel's framing of choices - not their own.
Right to the very end. However much Angel may be right that his is the only
meaningful choice, you'll note that he still doesn't solicit alternate ideas
from his team.

As I said before, I find this all true to character and even exciting. But
it's also a bit disappointing because it appears to represent giving up on
everything he had found peace with in the past - a lot of which was what
once motivated his followers.

So I still find this moment discomfiting. It is, however, substantially
mitigated by Angel removing the albatross of Shan-shu next episode. There
is
an unexpected peace to be found by letting go of that (probably false) hope,
which leads to an Angel that seems most at peace with his human/demon
divide.


> In any case, my working theory is that the main purpose of “Power
> Play” is to get all the objectionable parts of the final arc out in
> the open so that they can’t contaminate the finale. The viewer has a
> week to absorb and accept the implications of Angel’s strike on the
> Senior Partners, and is now armed with the realization that we go into
> “Not Fade Away” with the ongoing storyline we’ve got, not the one we’d
> like to have…
> Rating: Decent

They do load this episode down with background and exposition and last
minute enabling devices. Though I think that's the burden of the opening
episode of a two-parter in general. But I think the episode has its own
story function too. This is the culmination of the "Kill them all,"
attitude of an Angel tied down by W&H's bounds. All the rage and
frustration that's been building in him all year finally boiling up to the
bursting point. But for all the secret plotting, you can still see the
chains on him as he still must hurt those around him to achieve his aim.
Next episode is when Angel is finally let loose.

Izzy: Damn straight. We got you some supercharged warrior juice, not some
schmuck. You must feel great. (Referring to Angel drinking Drogyn's blood.)

It just occurred to me that this foreshadows Angel's fight with Hamilton
next episode. Sometimes I'm slow.


> Season Five, Episode 22: “Not Fade Away”
>
> … and given that setup, we can finish strong. Now, I think a series
> finale naturally inspires a bias one way or the other in most viewers,
> whether they want them to or not. Some can’t help but notice every
> way in which it falls short of their dream ending. Some are anxious
> for it to satisfy their sense of closure, and will forgive lots of
> problems as long as it gives them a few evocative moments to remember
> the show by. I fall in the latter category; I tend to be forgiving of
> endings, and go out of my way to look for fitting nods backward and
> memorable final images.

OK. I guess I come at it from a slightly different direction, but end up in
a similar place. Great endings are nice if you can pull it off. But then
great shows are nice whenever they occur. Getting hung up on the right or
wrong ending only serves to falsely negate what came before. (100+ episodes
in AtS's case.) There are things that only an ending can say, but I'm still
not going to let it define the much greater experience that came before.
Sometimes I think finales are burdened with expectations they don't deserve.
One of the things I appreciate about Not Fade Away is that it goes after
what it thinks is important then without feeling obligated to neatly wrap up
everything.


> So given that I’m not a totally objective viewer, I ask the question –
> is it just me, or is “Not Fade Away” the perfect finale? That’s
> partially rhetorical, since everything has flaws. But given the
> situation the episode has been handed, I can’t think of anything major
> that it should have done differently. (Other than maybe more money
> for the fight scenes, but that’s rarely a major focus of the
> Buffyverse. And I’d have enjoyed a brief appearance by Faith, but I
> kinda feel that way about every episode.) It’s got a poignant
> reflective moment for every main character,

This is probably nearly impossible to avoid in a finale. NFA succeeds quite
well with the brilliant poetry reading by Spike and Wesley's conversation
with Illyria. But the return of Ann and Wesley leave me indifferent at
best - mostly reminding me that I wished ending shows didn't have to force
the personal moments for each character and reach for old character reunions
to link to the past. It's a structural albatross controlled by external
demands rather than in-story ones. Be that as it may, this episode still
treads relatively softly through that minefield and doesn't let it drag down
the show.


> a few twists along the way
> to the denoument (did *anyone* see the bit with Lorne and Lindsey
> coming?),

Not me. Rewatching, however, has let me appreciate how much the weight of
the world bears down on Lorne late this season. While that doesn't exactly
predict the ending, it makes it ring true. Now I wish that had been fleshed
out even more. It may be too late in the series to finally give Lorne a
full character, but the effort is still worthy.

I like Lindsey's reaction too. "A flunky?"

> an absolutely crushing death scene, Angel triumphing in a
> way that plays off his core contradictions and getting to bask in some
> true happiness, before bringing us back one more time to an alley at
> night during a torrential downpour, where all the best endings
> happen. Reading some of the reactions as it originally aired, I see a
> few “IS NOT A ENDING!!” complaints, but most people seem to fall into
> the “of course it is” camp, partiucularly now that we’ve had a few
> years to sit on it.

As I mentioned before, I "thought" I had been spoiled that the finale closed
with an apocalypse. Heh. Well, I sure was initially flummoxed by the
understated ending. But that's just false expectations. I think the
decision was truly outstanding. I don't know if the moment represents the
best eternal image of the series, but it sure points to one of its great
constants.

"OK. You take the 30,000 on the left... "


> Excellent work, all.
> Rating: Excellent

There's much that's outstanding about the episode. It well earns an
Excellent rating. Even so, I find a fair amount of it to be kinda slow and
dull, while the emotional peaks don't really match a number of others I've
had with AtS. So it doesn't achieve standing as one of the series greats -
though it's probably second best of this season.

Last time I talked forever about the various ways to look at signing away
Shan-shu and implications for Angel's character throughout the series. This
time I just want to emphasize that whatever the truth of Shan-shu may be -
or of the validity of Angel signing the prophecy away - the primary
immediate impact upon Angel is liberation. He's no longer burdened by the
demands of this hope/curse - and really be extension no longer burdened by
the demands of W&H or PTB either. It's just Angel being true to himself -
whatever the hell that means even if he doesn't understand it - and exulting
in that freedom.

"Well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon."

That's a good way to end.


> Additional comments on S5D6: Some people objected to Andrew’s final
> scene in TGIQ, feeling like the show was suggesting that his
> ambiguously gay-or-asexual phase was just a silly thing that he needed
> to grow out of. Joss posted on Whedonesque a few months ago saying
> that he’d originally specified that Andrew should be greeted by a half-
> dozen or so Italian sophisticates of mixed gender, and was always
> annoyed that they changed it (he says he was somewhere else the day
> that scene was filmed). So, uh, there.

I swear. Some people (studiously not looking at myself) have way too much
time on their hands. There's nothing wrong with what was aired, which
doesn't even have to mean what the critics imply. Gay men hanging out with
the gals is not a foreign concept. I think his sexuality is safely
ambiguous forever.


> I questioned the decision to shift to the more episodic
> storytelling going into it the first time, and still do. For this
> particular show, the convoluted internal mythology is what it does
> best. I’d further submit that for veteran viewers, S5 almost has to
> seem like a step down. While for the new audience they were trying to
> draw, the entire premise of the Wolfram & Hart C.E.O. deal rests so
> heavily on the knowledge of past events that I can’t imagine it
> holding much appeal. But I guess the ratings were higher for S5, so
> what do I know?

Buffy had a fair number of two-parters and in S5 and S6 serialized the
closing 4 episodes. Maybe more at the end of S7 if you consider the Caleb
run serialized. But most of the series from start to end was episodic. It
usually had a strong back story arc that frequently intruded, but the
individual episodes remained stubbornly episodic anyway. It never
serialized to the degree that AtS did S2-S4. That's the kind of model they
could have used, which would have been fine with me.

Arguably, that's actually what they did. The relatively unchanging
background story of trapped at W&H got frustrating and dull, but not for
lack of presence. It was every bit as intrusive on the episodes as a
typical Buffy arc - maybe more. It just sat there stuck in neutral.


> As has already become clear, I love _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_ for the
> show it grew into, whiles despite its inconsistency, I love _Angel_
> for the show it aspired to be and the heights it achieved on its best
> weeks. Well, I recently realized that, given the respective
> protagonists of these two series, that’s just about perfect.

I kinda loved Buffy for what it aspired to be too. Of course I just love
BtVS a whole lot more than AtS. I don't mean that as knock on AtS, which
has been a terrific viewing experience in its own way. I just like BtVS
better.


> And that’s about it. This brings us to the end of the complete Mutant
> Enemy canon. It’s certainly a relief to say that in a short time
> (relatively speaking), that will no longer be the case, assuming Joss
> keeps the ME name. For now, I’ve said my piece, and based on both my
> level of enthusiasm and the amount of discussion these threads have
> generated lately, it’s clear that play time’s over. For the last time
> in what’s been an amazing and fun Buffyverse project, thanks for
> reading and contributing. Let’s go (back) to work.

And thank you too. It's been quite an experience.

OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:v4Odnf4X-ohHWOrVnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d@supernews.com...

> But the return of Ann and Wesley

Ooops!! I meant the return of Ann and Connor of course.

OBS

"One Bit Shy" <OBS@nomail.sorry> wrote in
news:v4Odnf4X-ohHWOrVnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d@supernews.com:

> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8c313db4-f91d-4c95-b73b-5448bf768ff0@k37g2000hsf.googlegroup
> s.com...
>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Five, Episode 20: “The Girl In Question”
>>

> I'm with Apteryx on this one. There's both good humor and good
> drama to be found in this. I rate it Good.
>
> But by all appearances, we're in the minority on this one. This
> seems to be among the most reviled episodes of the entire
> series. That's always puzzled me. The part that bothers people
> so much is just another comic romp in a tradition going back at
> least to BB&B. (Which I know is not in its favor for you, AOQ,
> but that's a pretty popular show.) I actually like this better
> than BB&B myself, but that's not the point. It's just a set of
> gags. Some aren't great - the chase through the streets isn't
> very well staged for example. But some work well - how can you
> not laugh at holding a gun to the bag with a head? And of
> course the classic debate over who saved the world more... So
> it makes people laugh to greater or lesser degrees. I get that.
> I don't get the loathing. What's to hate?

I actually rather like the episode. Angel and Spike are funny when
they're frustrated.

Although I wouldn't place it above BB&B

>
> Feh. I spit on all the nay-sayers. Ptuey! We will speak of
> this no more.
>

Filthy, Filthy nay-sayers!


--
Michael Ikeda mmikeda@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association

One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsmtsm@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8c313db4-f91d-4c95-b73b-5448bf768ff0@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Five, Episode 20: “The Girl In Question”
>>
>
> I'm with Apteryx on this one. There's both good humor and good drama to be
> found in this. I rate it Good.
>
> But by all appearances, we're in the minority on this one. This seems to be
> among the most reviled episodes of the entire series. That's always puzzled
> me. The part that bothers people so much is just another comic romp in a
> tradition going back at least to BB&B.

Yeah, but those were both funny and well-written... *HAW!*

--
Rowan Hawthorn

"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"

"Michael Ikeda" <mmikeda@erols.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9AD8BF30C1249mmikedacomcastnet@216.196.97. 136...

> Although I wouldn't place it above BB&B

It's the Illyria/Fred part that elevates TGIQ for me. BB&B has a comedy
edge - though it too is a bit up and down.

One Bit Shy wrote:

>
>>ANGEL
>>Season Five, Episode 20: “The Girl In Question”

>
> But by all appearances, we're in the minority on this one. This seems to be
> among the most reviled episodes of the entire series. That's always puzzled
> me. The part that bothers people so much is just another comic romp in a
> tradition going back at least to BB&B. (Which I know is not in its favor
> for you, AOQ, but that's a pretty popular show.) I actually like this
> better than BB&B myself, but that's not the point. It's just a set of gags.
> Some aren't great - the chase through the streets isn't very well staged for
> example. But some work well - how can you not laugh at holding a gun to the
> bag with a head? And of course the classic debate over who saved the world
> more... So it makes people laugh to greater or lesser degrees. I get that.
> I don't get the loathing. What's to hate?
>
> Feh. I spit on all the nay-sayers. Ptuey! We will speak of this no more.
>

I think a lot of it is timing rather than content. With only 3 episodes
to go in the series, why spend half of one on a rather irrelevant romp?
Once they knew they were being cancelled after "You're Welcome" finished
filming, the Angel/Spike comedy hour could have come sooner rather than
later. Or not at all.




>
>>Season Five, Episode 21: “Power Play”
>

>
> So I still find this moment discomfiting. It is, however, substantially
> mitigated by Angel removing the albatross of Shan-shu next episode. There
> is
> an unexpected peace to be found by letting go of that (probably false) hope,
> which leads to an Angel that seems most at peace with his human/demon
> divide.
>
>

Spoiler space for "After the Fall".....









































Of course, then they go and make him human anyway......



Mel