Speculations: How did Muad'dib's Jihad start? Was there a rebellion of
some kind?

Tony wrote:

> Speculations: How did Muad'dib's Jihad start? Was there a rebellion of
> some kind?

Paul's jihad did not need a catalyst. The need to reinforce his rule on
the planets of the Empire was so obvious that Mohiam saw it even before
he fought Feyd...

WM


>
>

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:
>
>
> Tony wrote:
>
>> Speculations: How did Muad'dib's Jihad start? Was there a rebellion of
>> some kind?
>
> Paul's jihad did not need a catalyst. The need to reinforce his rule on
> the planets of the Empire was so obvious that Mohiam saw it even before he
> fought Feyd...

>
I don't recall that scene. Is that something Mohiam said before the fight
with Feyd?

Tony wrote:

> "Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:
>
>>
>>Tony wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Speculations: How did Muad'dib's Jihad start? Was there a rebellion of
>>>some kind?
>>
>>Paul's jihad did not need a catalyst. The need to reinforce his rule on
>>the planets of the Empire was so obvious that Mohiam saw it even before he
>>fought Feyd...
>
>
> I don't recall that scene. Is that something Mohiam said before the fight
> with Feyd?

"You cannot loose these people on the Universe"...Paraphrased, of course...

WM

>
>

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:3f8b5$4876a080$62101d6b$23679@ALLTEL.NET...
>
>
> Tony wrote:
>
>> "Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:
>>
>>>
>>>Tony wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Speculations: How did Muad'dib's Jihad start? Was there a rebellion
>>>> of some kind?
>>>
>>>Paul's jihad did not need a catalyst. The need to reinforce his rule on
>>>the planets of the Empire was so obvious that Mohiam saw it even before
>>>he fought Feyd...
>>
>>
>> I don't recall that scene. Is that something Mohiam said before the
>> fight with Feyd?
>
> "You cannot loose these people on the Universe"...Paraphrased, of
> course...
>

It's great to hear from you. So you interpreted Mohiam's statement to mean
that Paul needed to reinforce his rule on the planets. Do you mean that
Paul needed to start a Jihad as a preemptive move to avoid future problems?

Tony wrote:

> "Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message
> news:3f8b5$4876a080$62101d6b$23679@ALLTEL.NET...
>
>>
>>Tony wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tony wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Speculations: How did Muad'dib's Jihad start? Was there a rebellion
>>>>>of some kind?
>>>>
>>>>Paul's jihad did not need a catalyst. The need to reinforce his rule on
>>>>the planets of the Empire was so obvious that Mohiam saw it even before
>>>>he fought Feyd...
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't recall that scene. Is that something Mohiam said before the
>>>fight with Feyd?
>>
>>"You cannot loose these people on the Universe"...Paraphrased, of
>>course...
>>
>
>
> It's great to hear from you. So you interpreted Mohiam's statement to mean
> that Paul needed to reinforce his rule on the planets. Do you mean that
> Paul needed to start a Jihad as a preemptive move to avoid future problems?

Obviously, if Paul Legions show up on a Planet to introduce the "new
reality" and the populace says, "Kewl", we wouldn't see the war and
resistance detailed in Dune Messiah. So, yes, they were either sent to
quell current uprisings or were there to put down any resistance to the
new regime. Mohiam was a very skilled operative with likely wide ranging
methods of seeing what was going on, especially concerning her position
in Shaddam's court. When Paul wrested the throne with the help of the
Fremen she saw the way things were going to go. Despite her outburst,
I'm sure she knew it was basically a "done deal"...


WM


>
>

<snip>
>
> Obviously, if Paul Legions show up on a Planet to introduce the "new
> reality" and the populace says, "Kewl", we wouldn't see the war and
> resistance detailed in Dune Messiah.

Now hold on, Paul was the legitimate Emperor. He had married Irulan. It
wasn't necessary for his Legions to show up on any planet to introduce new
reality.

> So, yes, they were either sent to quell current uprisings or were there to
> put down any resistance to the new regime.

How could anyone really threaten Paul's rule? No one could invade Arrakis.

Tony wrote:

> <snip>
>
>>Obviously, if Paul Legions show up on a Planet to introduce the "new
>>reality" and the populace says, "Kewl", we wouldn't see the war and
>>resistance detailed in Dune Messiah.
>
>
> Now hold on, Paul was the legitimate Emperor. He had married Irulan. It
> wasn't necessary for his Legions to show up on any planet to introduce new
> reality.

I know you read Dune Messiah, so I am confused by your statement. Not
only that, but even Dune shows us how the Emperor Shaddam maintained
control. The Sardukar were not the Royal serving staff.
>
>
>>So, yes, they were either sent to quell current uprisings or were there to
>>put down any resistance to the new regime.
>
>
> How could anyone really threaten Paul's rule? No one could invade Arrakis.

And? You still have to maintain control/subservience over the scattered
subjects, People do not pay tribute/taxes because they think of it as
fun. Especially in the Feudal society FH envisioned....

WM
>
>

<snip>

>
> I know you read Dune Messiah, so I am confused by your statement. Not only
> that, but even Dune shows us how the Emperor Shaddam maintained control.
> The Sardukar were not the Royal serving staff.

But Shaddam had accepted Paul's authority. Shaddam controlled the Sardukar
who were carefully monitored and confined to their planet.

<snip>
>
> And? You still have to maintain control/subservience over the scattered
> subjects, People do not pay tribute/taxes because they think of it as fun.
> Especially in the Feudal society FH envisioned....
>

So tax collection problems represented a possible cause of the Jihad?

Tony - the little tease! - took the piss ,on 11/07/2008 10:17:
> <snip>
>
>> I know you read Dune Messiah, so I am confused by your statement. Not only
>> that, but even Dune shows us how the Emperor Shaddam maintained control.
>> The Sardukar were not the Royal serving staff.
>
> But Shaddam had accepted Paul's authority. Shaddam controlled the Sardukar
> who were carefully monitored and confined to their planet.
>
> <snip>
>> And? You still have to maintain control/subservience over the scattered
>> subjects, People do not pay tribute/taxes because they think of it as fun.
>> Especially in the Feudal society FH envisioned....
>>
>
> So tax collection problems represented a possible cause of the Jihad?
>
He's taking the piss, WM! Winding you up. Yanking your chain. Spank him
on the willy!!!

Tony wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>I know you read Dune Messiah, so I am confused by your statement. Not only
>>that, but even Dune shows us how the Emperor Shaddam maintained control.
>>The Sardukar were not the Royal serving staff.
>
>
> But Shaddam had accepted Paul's authority. Shaddam controlled the Sardukar
> who were carefully monitored and confined to their planet.

During Dune, it was mentioned or implied several times about how the
Emperor used the Sardukar. Duke Leto, and Hawat, before it even
happened, predicted Sardukar on Arrakis disguised in Harkonnen livery.
They were often used just as a threat, but, obviously, there was follow
through.
>
> <snip>
>
>>And? You still have to maintain control/subservience over the scattered
>>subjects, People do not pay tribute/taxes because they think of it as fun.
>>Especially in the Feudal society FH envisioned....
>>
>
>
> So tax collection problems represented a possible cause of the Jihad?

Among a myriad of others. I never got the sense that Paul just
automatically sent them without cause. The Empire was a far flung affair
and, yes, the Jihad was a consolidation affair, and, in those Feudal
times, a necessity. You could say that the whole of the Dune Novel, with
Paul's attendant oracular vision and dreams were a precursor to the
Jihad....

WM


>
>

Stoned in Arrakeen wrote:

> Tony - the little tease! - took the piss ,on 11/07/2008 10:17:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I know you read Dune Messiah, so I am confused by your statement. Not
>>> only that, but even Dune shows us how the Emperor Shaddam maintained
>>> control. The Sardukar were not the Royal serving staff.
>>
>>
>> But Shaddam had accepted Paul's authority. Shaddam controlled the
>> Sardukar who were carefully monitored and confined to their planet.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> And? You still have to maintain control/subservience over the
>>> scattered subjects, People do not pay tribute/taxes because they
>>> think of it as fun. Especially in the Feudal society FH envisioned....
>>>
>>
>> So tax collection problems represented a possible cause of the Jihad?
>
> He's taking the piss, WM! Winding you up. Yanking your chain. Spank him
> on the willy!!!

I'll leave you to, erm, handle his willy. :P

WM

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:
>
>
> Tony wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>I know you read Dune Messiah, so I am confused by your statement. Not
>>>only that, but even Dune shows us how the Emperor Shaddam maintained
>>>control. The Sardukar were not the Royal serving staff.
>>
>>
>> But Shaddam had accepted Paul's authority. Shaddam controlled the
>> Sardukar who were carefully monitored and confined to their planet.
>
> During Dune, it was mentioned or implied several times about how the
> Emperor used the Sardukar. Duke Leto, and Hawat, before it even happened,
> predicted Sardukar on Arrakis disguised in Harkonnen livery. They were
> often used just as a threat, but, obviously, there was follow through.

Are you saying that the Sardukar posed a threat that necessitated a Jihad?


>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>And? You still have to maintain control/subservience over the scattered
>>>subjects, People do not pay tribute/taxes because they think of it as
>>>fun. Especially in the Feudal society FH envisioned....
>>>
>>
>>
>> So tax collection problems represented a possible cause of the Jihad?
>
> Among a myriad of others. I never got the sense that Paul just
> automatically sent them without cause. The Empire was a far flung affair
> and, yes, the Jihad was a consolidation affair, and, in those Feudal
> times, a necessity.

If Shaddam could control things without a Jihad, why not Paul?

> You could say that the whole of the Dune Novel, with Paul's attendant
> oracular vision and dreams were a precursor to the Jihad....
>

Tony wrote:
> "Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:
>
>>
>>Tony wrote:
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>I know you read Dune Messiah, so I am confused by your statement. Not
>>>>only that, but even Dune shows us how the Emperor Shaddam maintained
>>>>control. The Sardukar were not the Royal serving staff.
>>>
>>>
>>>But Shaddam had accepted Paul's authority. Shaddam controlled the
>>>Sardukar who were carefully monitored and confined to their planet.
>>
>>During Dune, it was mentioned or implied several times about how the
>>Emperor used the Sardukar. Duke Leto, and Hawat, before it even happened,
>>predicted Sardukar on Arrakis disguised in Harkonnen livery. They were
>>often used just as a threat, but, obviously, there was follow through.
>
>
> Are you saying that the Sardukar posed a threat that necessitated a Jihad?

No.
>
>
>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>And? You still have to maintain control/subservience over the scattered
>>>>subjects, People do not pay tribute/taxes because they think of it as
>>>>fun. Especially in the Feudal society FH envisioned....
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>So tax collection problems represented a possible cause of the Jihad?
>>
>>Among a myriad of others. I never got the sense that Paul just
>>automatically sent them without cause. The Empire was a far flung affair
>>and, yes, the Jihad was a consolidation affair, and, in those Feudal
>>times, a necessity.
>
>
> If Shaddam could control things without a Jihad, why not Paul?

Shaddam wasn't calling it a Jihad. Besides, he had been in power for
quite awhile. I doubt the necessity to sent a legion of Sardukar had
lessened with repetition and reputation. Paul was a new untested
quantity. And he likely had many changes to institute along with
regulatory and show of force maneuvers. Hence, Paul's Jihad.

WM

>
>
>>You could say that the whole of the Dune Novel, with Paul's attendant
>>oracular vision and dreams were a precursor to the Jihad....
>>
>
>
>

Mohiam predicted the Jihad in the first chapter:

"I see in the future what I've seen in the past. You well know the
pattern
of our affairs, Jessica. The race knows its own mortality and fears
stagnation
of its heredity. It's in the bloodstream -- the urge to mingle genetic
strains
without plan. The Imperium, the CHOAM Company, all the Great Houses,
they are
but bits of flotsam in the path of the flood."

This is what Paul called his "Race Consciousness".

Muad'dib's Jihad was not political, it was religious. As an above
poster stated, he was a legitimate emperor, but he had to stamp out
the old religions and enforce his at the point of a cryskinfe.

Muad'dib's Jihad was a band-aid where Leto II's Golden Path was a cure
for humankind's stagnation.

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:>>
>> If Shaddam could control things without a Jihad, why not Paul?
>
> Shaddam wasn't calling it a Jihad. Besides, he had been in power for quite
> awhile. I doubt the necessity to sent a legion of Sardukar had lessened
> with repetition and reputation. Paul was a new untested quantity. And he
> likely had many changes to institute along with regulatory and show of
> force maneuvers. Hence, Paul's Jihad.
>

Maybe Paul couldn't get the Fremen to police the galaxy like the Sarduakar
unless there was some putative religious motive involved.

"Freakzilla" <jlkiv@comcast.net> wrote

<snip>

>
> Muad'dib's Jihad was not political, it was religious. As an above
> poster stated, he was a legitimate emperor, but he had to stamp out
> the old religions and enforce his at the point of a cryskinfe.
>
> Muad'dib's Jihad was a band-aid where Leto II's Golden Path was a cure
> for humankind's stagnation.

But Paul wasn't actually religious, Was he?

On Jul 14, 4:26 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > Muad'dib's Jihad was not political, it was religious.  As an above
> > poster stated, he was a legitimate emperor, but he had to stamp out
> > the old religions and enforce his at the point of a cryskinfe.
>
> > Muad'dib's Jihad was a band-aid where Leto II's Golden Path was a cure
> > for humankind's stagnation.
>
> But Paul wasn't actually religious, Was he?

No, but the Fremen were and he couldn't denounce his religion without
losing the Fremen.

The spirit of Muad'Dib is more than words, more than the letter of the
Law which
arises in his name. Muad'Dib must always be that inner outrage against
the
complacently powerful, against the charlatans and the dogmatic
fanatics. It is
that inner outrage which must have its say because Muad'Dib taught us
one thing
above all others: that humans can endure only in a fraternity of
social justice.
-The Fedaykin Compact

"Freakzilla" <jlkiv@comcast.net> wrote in message news:

<snip>

No, but the Fremen were and he couldn't denounce his religion without
losing the Fremen.

The spirit of Muad'Dib is more than words, more than the letter of the
Law which
arises in his name. Muad'Dib must always be that inner outrage against
the
complacently powerful, against the charlatans and the dogmatic
fanatics. It is
that inner outrage which must have its say because Muad'Dib taught us
one thing
above all others: that humans can endure only in a fraternity of
social justice.
-The Fedaykin Compact

Are you saying the Paul couldn't renounce a religion that stated he must
have inner outrage against the complacently powerful, and consequently he
was compelled to have a Jihad?

Tony wrote:

> "Freakzilla" <jlkiv@comcast.net> wrote
>
> <snip>
>
>>Muad'dib's Jihad was not political, it was religious. As an above
>>poster stated, he was a legitimate emperor, but he had to stamp out
>>the old religions and enforce his at the point of a cryskinfe.
>>
>>Muad'dib's Jihad was a band-aid where Leto II's Golden Path was a cure
>>for humankind's stagnation.
>
>
> But Paul wasn't actually religious, Was he?

As the Spawn of a BG, he was a manipulator of religion. And as a
politician, twice that.

WM

>
>

On Jul 14, 7:21 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
wrote:
> Tony wrote:
> > "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> > <snip>
>
> >>Muad'dib's Jihad was not political, it was religious.  As an above
> >>poster stated, he was a legitimate emperor, but he had to stamp out
> >>the old religions and enforce his at the point of a cryskinfe.
>
> >>Muad'dib's Jihad was a band-aid where Leto II's Golden Path was a cure
> >>for humankind's stagnation.
>
> > But Paul wasn't actually religious, Was he?
>
>         As the Spawn of a BG, he was a manipulator of religion. And as a
> politician, twice that.
>
> WM
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think the Jihad belonged to Muad'dib in name only, it was really a
Fremen Jihad in Muad'dib's name. I don't think Paul became emperor
and said, OK my Fremen, go out and convert the universe to my
religion. It was probably more like the Fremen told Muad'dib, we will
be your missionaries to the universe. He can't say, no, don't push my
warrior religion, it's not for everyone, the Fremen would lose faith
in him. Just look at Korba in DM, he's a perfect example of death
commando turned religious zealot. There was no stopping the Jihad, if
it hadn't been for Muad'dib and the Fremen, it might have been Farad'n
and the Sardaukar, or whoever else the Bene Gesserit wanted. Paul
just gained power in the right place at the right time.

Freakzilla wrote:

> On Jul 14, 7:21 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Tony wrote:
>>
>>>"Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote
>>
>>><snip>
>>
>>>>Muad'dib's Jihad was not political, it was religious. As an above
>>>>poster stated, he was a legitimate emperor, but he had to stamp out
>>>>the old religions and enforce his at the point of a cryskinfe.
>>
>>>>Muad'dib's Jihad was a band-aid where Leto II's Golden Path was a cure
>>>>for humankind's stagnation.
>>
>>>But Paul wasn't actually religious, Was he?
>>
>> As the Spawn of a BG, he was a manipulator of religion. And as a
>>politician, twice that.
>>
>>WM
>>
>>
>>
>>- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> I think the Jihad belonged to Muad'dib in name only, it was really a
> Fremen Jihad in Muad'dib's name. I don't think Paul became emperor
> and said, OK my Fremen, go out and convert the universe to my
> religion. It was probably more like the Fremen told Muad'dib, we will
> be your missionaries to the universe. He can't say, no, don't push my
> warrior religion, it's not for everyone, the Fremen would lose faith
> in him. Just look at Korba in DM, he's a perfect example of death
> commando turned religious zealot. There was no stopping the Jihad, if
> it hadn't been for Muad'dib and the Fremen, it might have been Farad'n
> and the Sardaukar, or whoever else the Bene Gesserit wanted. Paul
> just gained power in the right place at the right time.

Well, I agree. That was the whole point of his visions and the horror
of them to Paul. It was inevitable.

WM

Wild Monkshood wrote:

>
>
> Freakzilla wrote:
>
>> On Jul 14, 7:21 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Tony wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Muad'dib's Jihad was not political, it was religious. As an above
>>>>> poster stated, he was a legitimate emperor, but he had to stamp out
>>>>> the old religions and enforce his at the point of a cryskinfe.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Muad'dib's Jihad was a band-aid where Leto II's Golden Path was a cure
>>>>> for humankind's stagnation.
>>>
>>>
>>>> But Paul wasn't actually religious, Was he?
>>>
>>>
>>> As the Spawn of a BG, he was a manipulator of religion. And as a
>>> politician, twice that.
>>>
>>> WM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the Jihad belonged to Muad'dib in name only, it was really a
>> Fremen Jihad in Muad'dib's name. I don't think Paul became emperor
>> and said, OK my Fremen, go out and convert the universe to my
>> religion. It was probably more like the Fremen told Muad'dib, we will
>> be your missionaries to the universe. He can't say, no, don't push my
>> warrior religion, it's not for everyone, the Fremen would lose faith
>> in him. Just look at Korba in DM, he's a perfect example of death
>> commando turned religious zealot. There was no stopping the Jihad, if
>> it hadn't been for Muad'dib and the Fremen, it might have been Farad'n
>> and the Sardaukar, or whoever else the Bene Gesserit wanted. Paul
>> just gained power in the right place at the right time.
>
>
> Well, I agree. That was the whole point of his visions and the
> horror of them to Paul. It was inevitable.

Sorry. I meant to add that Paul still had to take responsibility of it
and direct it. As we open to Dune Messiah, the jihad is over, but we see
Paul and his advisors still making related decisions....

WM

>
> WM

On Jul 15, 12:22 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
wrote:
> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
> > Freakzilla wrote:
>
> >> On Jul 14, 7:21 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> Tony wrote:
>
> >>>> "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> >>>> <snip>
>
> >>>>> Muad'dib's Jihad was not political, it was religious.  As an above
> >>>>> poster stated, he was a legitimate emperor, but he had to stamp out
> >>>>> the old religions and enforce his at the point of a cryskinfe.
>
> >>>>> Muad'dib's Jihad was a band-aid where Leto II's Golden Path was a cure
> >>>>> for humankind's stagnation.
>
> >>>> But Paul wasn't actually religious, Was he?
>
> >>>        As the Spawn of a BG, he was a manipulator of religion.. And as a
> >>> politician, twice that.
>
> >>> WM
>
> >>> - Hide quoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> I think the Jihad belonged to Muad'dib in name only, it was really a
> >> Fremen Jihad in Muad'dib's name.  I don't think Paul became emperor
> >> and said, OK my Fremen, go out and convert the universe to my
> >> religion.  It was probably more like the Fremen told Muad'dib, we will
> >> be your missionaries to the universe.  He can't say, no, don't push my
> >> warrior religion, it's not for everyone, the Fremen would lose faith
> >> in him.  Just look at Korba in DM, he's a perfect example of death
> >> commando turned religious zealot.  There was no stopping the Jihad, if
> >> it hadn't been for Muad'dib and the Fremen, it might have been Farad'n
> >> and the Sardaukar, or whoever else the Bene Gesserit wanted.  Paul
> >> just gained power in the right place at the right time.
>
> >     Well, I agree. That was the whole point of his visions and the
> > horror of them to Paul. It was inevitable.
>
>         Sorry. I meant to add that Paul still had to take responsibility of it
> and direct it. As we open to Dune Messiah, the jihad is over, but we see
> Paul and his advisors still making related decisions....
>
> WM
>
>
>
>
>
> > WM- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That was the terrible choice he had to make in the stilltent with
Jessica. Turn himself over to the Harkonnens or dupe the fremen into
thinking he was the messiah and be responsible for the deaths of 61
billion people. IMO it all boiled down to desire for revenge against
the Emperor and the Harkonnens for the death of his father, that was
more important to him.

"Freakzilla" <jlkiv@comcast.net> wrote

<snip>

"That was the terrible choice he had to make in the stilltent with
Jessica. Turn himself over to the Harkonnens or dupe the fremen into
thinking he was the messiah and be responsible for the deaths of 61
billion people. IMO it all boiled down to desire for revenge against
the Emperor and the Harkonnens for the death of his father, that was
more important to him."

If Paul was a master a religious manipulation as mentioned by a poster
above, Paul would be well equipped to stop any Jihad he didn't approve of.
And if it was the Fremen who initiated the Jihad in Paul's name, wouldn't it
be expected to hear an observer comment on this fact in Dune Messiah?

Tony wrote:

> "Freakzilla" <jlkiv@comcast.net> wrote
>
> <snip>
>
> "That was the terrible choice he had to make in the stilltent with
> Jessica. Turn himself over to the Harkonnens or dupe the fremen into
> thinking he was the messiah and be responsible for the deaths of 61
> billion people. IMO it all boiled down to desire for revenge against
> the Emperor and the Harkonnens for the death of his father, that was
> more important to him."
>
> If Paul was a master a religious manipulation as mentioned by a poster
> above, Paul would be well equipped to stop any Jihad he didn't approve of.
> And if it was the Fremen who initiated the Jihad in Paul's name, wouldn't it
> be expected to hear an observer comment on this fact in Dune Messiah?

Tony FH was explicit as any author could be that the oracular vision
was set if he took that path. In a way, the jihad was like a force of
nature. Individuals could make small differences, but human nature and
the nature of the Duniverse dictated that it would play out in a certain
fashion. Like a boulder down a hill. The path can vary depending on
terrain, but its going down the mountain....

WM

>
>

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:

<snip>
>
> Tony FH was explicit as any author could be that the oracular vision was
> set if he took that path.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I think there was the implication that the
Oracle "created the future." Are you saying that Paul's actions in the
novel Dune made the Jihad inevitable?

> In a way, the jihad was like a force of nature. Individuals could make
> small differences, but human nature and the nature of the Duniverse
> dictated that it would play out in a certain fashion. Like a boulder down
> a hill. The path can vary depending on terrain, but its going down the
> mountain....
>

Yes, I believe that Paul noted that the Jihad could occur even if he died.
I'm just trying to reconstruct how it occurred in the interval between Dune
and Dune Messiah. It had to occur somehow. I figure there had to be some
type of event that started it.

Tony wrote:
> "Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message news:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Tony FH was explicit as any author could be that the oracular vision was
>>set if he took that path.
>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here. I think there was the implication that the
> Oracle "created the future." Are you saying that Paul's actions in the
> novel Dune made the Jihad inevitable?

At the end of the day, really what difference did it make? It was a
question that was never answered.
>
>
>>In a way, the jihad was like a force of nature. Individuals could make
>>small differences, but human nature and the nature of the Duniverse
>>dictated that it would play out in a certain fashion. Like a boulder down
>>a hill. The path can vary depending on terrain, but its going down the
>>mountain....
>>
>
>
> Yes, I believe that Paul noted that the Jihad could occur even if he died.
> I'm just trying to reconstruct how it occurred in the interval between Dune
> and Dune Messiah. It had to occur somehow. I figure there had to be some
> type of event that started it.

You can speculate, but FH gives little real detail. Presumably the
details were not important to FH, so much as the result and where he
picked up the story threads. This is why the prequels, even if they had
been well written, were a curiosity. Obviously, FH started at the
precise place that suited the story he had to tell.

WM
>
>

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote

<snip>

> At the end of the day, really what difference did it make? It was a
> question that was never answered.

<snip>
>
> You can speculate, but FH gives little real detail. Presumably the details
> were not important to FH, so much as the result and where he picked up the
> story threads.

I think the question has important implications for the evaluation for
Paul's character. In addition, it's worth exploring whether this ambiguity
represents a major flaw in Frank Herbert's story telling. One might also
ask, Is this a plot point the author wrote notes on?

Tony wrote:
> "Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote
>
> <snip>
>
>>At the end of the day, really what difference did it make? It was a
>>question that was never answered.
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>You can speculate, but FH gives little real detail. Presumably the details
>>were not important to FH, so much as the result and where he picked up the
>>story threads.
>
>
> I think the question has important implications for the evaluation for
> Paul's character. In addition, it's worth exploring whether this ambiguity
> represents a major flaw in Frank Herbert's story telling. One might also
> ask, Is this a plot point the author wrote notes on?

Well, speculate the details of the jihad, then. I think FH gave us
plenty of information to evaluate Paul's character, up to and including
his most personal thoughts. There is no major flaw. Just an author not
detailing everything for a reader, or not getting the story he wanted to
tell bogged down in unnecessary detail. The jihad was horrible. People
died, massively so. Lots o' destruction. Do we really need to know that
Crenos Filbutt of Remligoad III had his groin crushed before he died. Or
that a Fremen Jihadist farted on Plumkas Major? Good luck with the
Herbert heirs releasing notes....

WM

>
>
>

On Jul 15, 6:15 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> <snip>
>
> "That was the terrible choice he had to make in the stilltent with
> Jessica.  Turn himself over to the Harkonnens or dupe the fremen into
> thinking he was the messiah and be responsible for the deaths of 61
> billion people.  IMO it all boiled down to desire for revenge against
> the Emperor and the Harkonnens for the death of his father, that was
> more important to him."
>
> If Paul was a master a religious manipulation as mentioned by a poster
> above, Paul would be well equipped to stop any Jihad he didn't approve of..
> And if it was the Fremen who initiated the Jihad in Paul's name, wouldn'tit
> be expected to hear an observer comment on this fact in Dune Messiah?

I thought that was covered in Dune:

In a rush of loneliness, Paul glanced around the room, noting how
proper and
on-review his guards had become in his presence. He sensed the subtle,
prideful
competition among them -- each hoping for notice from Muad'Dib.
Muad'Dib from whom all blessings flow, he thought, and it was the
bitterest
thought of his life. They sense that I must take the throne, he
thought. But
they cannot know I do it to prevent the jihad.

...

They're accustomed to seeing the future, Paul thought. In this place
and
time they're blind . . . even as I am. And he sampled the time-winds,
sensing
the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place.
Even the
faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here
was the
race consciousness that he had known once as his own terrible purpose.
Here was
reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the
halting
schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own
dormancy,
sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience
turmoil in
which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All
humans
were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment,
experiencing a kind
of sexual heat that could override any barrier.
And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest
bit
of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the
jihad would
be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They
needed only
the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given
them mastery
even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist.

It wasn't Paul who was the master of religious manipulation, it was
Jessica who was an adept of the Panoplia Prophetica, the infectious
superstitions used by the Bene Gesserit to exploit primitive regions.

Freakzilla wrote:
> It wasn't Paul who was the master of religious manipulation, it was
> Jessica who was an adept of the Panoplia Prophetica, the infectious
> superstitions used by the Bene Gesserit to exploit primitive regions.
>


You're not quoting, so that makes it difficult to know what you are
specifically responding to. However, just because Jessica was adept at
religious manipulation doesn't lessen Paul's talent, natural or
otherwise, in this regard. I don't recall her ever being described as an
"adept of the Panoplia Prophetica". Wouldn't that require she be a
member of the Missionaria Protectiva? That was never indicated that I
know of, but I will concede that she knew something of their methods.

WM

>

Wild Monkshood wrote:

>
>
> Freakzilla wrote:
>
>> It wasn't Paul who was the master of religious manipulation, it was
>> Jessica who was an adept of the Panoplia Prophetica, the infectious
>> superstitions used by the Bene Gesserit to exploit primitive regions.
>>
>
>
> You're not quoting, so that makes it difficult to know what you are
> specifically responding to. However, just because Jessica was adept at
> religious manipulation doesn't lessen Paul's talent, natural or
> otherwise, in this regard. I don't recall her ever being described as an
> "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica". Wouldn't that require she be a
> member of the Missionaria Protectiva? That was never indicated that I
> know of, but I will concede that she knew something of their methods.

Just wanted to add that Jessica wasn't even a Reverend Mother circa
Dune, but was a B.G. Adept. I would imagine that to be either a member
of the Missionaria Protectiva or an "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica",
would require the Agony or a more elevated rank than B.G. Adept. I could
be wrong, though. Do you have any idea where that was in the text?

WM

>
> WM
>
>>

On Jul 16, 3:40 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
wrote:
> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
> > Freakzilla wrote:
>
> >> It wasn't Paul who was the master of religious manipulation, it was
> >> Jessica who was an adept of the Panoplia Prophetica, the infectious
> >> superstitions used by the Bene Gesserit to exploit primitive regions.
>
> >     You're not quoting, so that makes it difficult to know what youare
> > specifically responding to. However, just because Jessica was adept at
> > religious manipulation doesn't lessen Paul's talent, natural or
> > otherwise, in this regard. I don't recall her ever being described as an
> > "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica". Wouldn't that require she be a
> > member of the Missionaria Protectiva? That was never indicated that I
> > know of, but I will concede that she knew something of their methods.
>
>         Just wanted to add that Jessica wasn't even a Reverend Mother circa
> Dune, but was a B.G. Adept. I would imagine that to be either a member
> of the Missionaria Protectiva or an "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica",
> would require the Agony or a more elevated rank than B.G. Adept. I could
> be wrong, though. Do you have any idea where that was in the text?
>
> WM
>
>
>
>
>
> > WM- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"Matters cannot be allowed to continue in this way," the leader of the
Bene
Gesserit delegation had argued. "Surely the signs of decay have not
escaped you
-- you of all people! We know why you left us, but we know also how
you were
trained. Nothing was stinted in your education. You are an adept of
the Panoplia
Prophetica and you must know when the souring of a powerful religion
threatens
us all."
~Children of Dune

To me that would insinuate that Jessica was trained to work in the
Missionaria Protectiva.

"Freakzilla" <jlkiv@comcast.net> wrote in message news:

<snip>

> If Paul was a master a religious manipulation as mentioned by a poster
> above, Paul would be well equipped to stop any Jihad he didn't approve of.
> And if it was the Fremen who initiated the Jihad in Paul's name, wouldn't
> it
> be expected to hear an observer comment on this fact in Dune Messiah?


<snip>

And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest
bit
of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the
jihad would
be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They
needed only
the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given
them mastery
even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist.

Hi Freakzilla,

It's always great to hear from you. :-) Are you saying that a comment by
an observer in Dune Messiah about Paul not initiating the Jihad himself,
would be superfluous because Paul had a vision of a possible future with a
Jihad started without his initiative?

"Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:4f32$487df940$621016f8$16344@ALLTEL.NET...
>
>
> Tony wrote:
>> "Wild Monkshood" <Wild_Monkshood@windstream.net> wrote
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>At the end of the day, really what difference did it make? It was a
>>>question that was never answered.
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>You can speculate, but FH gives little real detail. Presumably the
>>>details were not important to FH, so much as the result and where he
>>>picked up the story threads.
>>
>>
>> I think the question has important implications for the evaluation for
>> Paul's character. In addition, it's worth exploring whether this
>> ambiguity represents a major flaw in Frank Herbert's story telling. One
>> might also ask, Is this a plot point the author wrote notes on?
>
> Well, speculate the details of the jihad, then. I think FH gave us plenty
> of information to evaluate Paul's character, up to and including his most
> personal thoughts. There is no major flaw. Just an author not detailing
> everything for a reader, or not getting the story he wanted to tell bogged
> down in unnecessary detail. The jihad was horrible. People died, massively
> so. Lots o' destruction. Do we really need to know that Crenos Filbutt of
> Remligoad III had his groin crushed before he died. Or that a Fremen
> Jihadist farted on Plumkas Major? Good luck with the Herbert heirs
> releasing notes....
>

Hi WM! :-) I'm wondering what the new prequel about the Jihad will be
about. It's probably better for us to formulate our own opinions about what
started the Jihad before we hear about Brian and Kevin's perspective on
this. :-o

Freakzilla wrote:
> On Jul 16, 3:40 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Wild Monkshood wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Freakzilla wrote:
>>
>>>>It wasn't Paul who was the master of religious manipulation, it was
>>>>Jessica who was an adept of the Panoplia Prophetica, the infectious
>>>>superstitions used by the Bene Gesserit to exploit primitive regions.
>>
>>> You're not quoting, so that makes it difficult to know what you are
>>>specifically responding to. However, just because Jessica was adept at
>>>religious manipulation doesn't lessen Paul's talent, natural or
>>>otherwise, in this regard. I don't recall her ever being described as an
>>>"adept of the Panoplia Prophetica". Wouldn't that require she be a
>>>member of the Missionaria Protectiva? That was never indicated that I
>>>know of, but I will concede that she knew something of their methods.
>>
>> Just wanted to add that Jessica wasn't even a Reverend Mother circa
>>Dune, but was a B.G. Adept. I would imagine that to be either a member
>>of the Missionaria Protectiva or an "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica",
>>would require the Agony or a more elevated rank than B.G. Adept. I could
>>be wrong, though. Do you have any idea where that was in the text?
>>
>>WM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>WM- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> "Matters cannot be allowed to continue in this way," the leader of the
> Bene
> Gesserit delegation had argued. "Surely the signs of decay have not
> escaped you
> -- you of all people! We know why you left us, but we know also how
> you were
> trained. Nothing was stinted in your education. You are an adept of
> the Panoplia
> Prophetica and you must know when the souring of a powerful religion
> threatens
> us all."
> ~Children of Dune
>
> To me that would insinuate that Jessica was trained to work in the
> Missionaria Protectiva.

This is after she shared with Ramallo (sp?, their wild Reverend Mother
who likely passed it on then. Good catch. Remember that Jessica, pre
agony, commented on the "Reverend Mother" who had caused the Fremen to
adapt the legends and call their own religious leaders Reverend Mothers.
So, then, Jessica's training was likely remnants of Fremen Panoplia
Prophetica training. It was likely very similar to B.G. Training. When
Jessica returns to the B.G., there is no indication that she wasn't
accepted as a B.G. Reverend Mother although her route to it was Fremen,
not strict B.G. This would imply that is was nearly identical. Of
course, she might have received additional training once she rejoined
the B.G. Training in the above example you quote would seem to imply
more than that passed on through the Agony, or maybe not.

WM

Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
>
> Freakzilla wrote:
>
>> On Jul 16, 3:40 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Freakzilla wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> It wasn't Paul who was the master of religious manipulation, it was
>>>>> Jessica who was an adept of the Panoplia Prophetica, the infectious
>>>>> superstitions used by the Bene Gesserit to exploit primitive regions.
>>>
>>>
>>>> You're not quoting, so that makes it difficult to know what you are
>>>> specifically responding to. However, just because Jessica was adept at
>>>> religious manipulation doesn't lessen Paul's talent, natural or
>>>> otherwise, in this regard. I don't recall her ever being described
>>>> as an
>>>> "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica". Wouldn't that require she be a
>>>> member of the Missionaria Protectiva? That was never indicated that I
>>>> know of, but I will concede that she knew something of their methods.
>>>
>>>
>>> Just wanted to add that Jessica wasn't even a Reverend Mother
>>> circa
>>> Dune, but was a B.G. Adept. I would imagine that to be either a member
>>> of the Missionaria Protectiva or an "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica",
>>> would require the Agony or a more elevated rank than B.G. Adept. I could
>>> be wrong, though. Do you have any idea where that was in the text?
>>>
>>> WM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> WM- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>
>>
>> "Matters cannot be allowed to continue in this way," the leader of the
>> Bene
>> Gesserit delegation had argued. "Surely the signs of decay have not
>> escaped you
>> -- you of all people! We know why you left us, but we know also how
>> you were
>> trained. Nothing was stinted in your education. You are an adept of
>> the Panoplia
>> Prophetica and you must know when the souring of a powerful religion
>> threatens
>> us all."
>> ~Children of Dune
>>
>> To me that would insinuate that Jessica was trained to work in the
>> Missionaria Protectiva.
>
>
> This is after she shared with Ramallo (sp?, their wild Reverend
> Mother who likely passed it on then. Good catch. Remember that Jessica,
> pre agony, commented on the "Reverend Mother" who had caused the Fremen
> to adapt the legends and call their own religious leaders Reverend
> Mothers. So, then, Jessica's training was likely remnants of Fremen
> Panoplia Prophetica training. It was likely very similar to B.G.
> Training. When Jessica returns to the B.G., there is no indication that
> she wasn't accepted as a B.G. Reverend Mother although her route to it
> was Fremen, not strict B.G. This would imply that is was nearly
> identical. Of course, she might have received additional training once
> she rejoined the B.G. Training in the above example you quote would seem
> to imply more than that passed on through the Agony, or maybe not.


Tagging onto my own post because I didn't want to start a new thread.

This whole thread got me to thinking how duplicitous that Jessica was
as per her manipulations. First though, why didn't the Wild Reverend
Mothers of the Fremen know that the legends were false? They were
offshoots from the original BG of the Missionaria Protectiva that seeded
the legends on Dune. Didn't the manipulations transfer during the Agony?
I can think of two possible explanations. One, it is hinted that the BG
Reverend Mother was on Dune quite a long time ago, probably predating
the discovery of Melange. This may have even been spelled out. I can't
recall. Therefore the transfer may have been through the agony, but with
the older drugs/methods. Maybe the transfer was less clean. Or,
possibly, the Wild Reverend Mothers did know. After all, it behooved
them and their power base to carry on with these legends. Anyway,
regardless, Jessica knew before her agony, and afterwards. Of course, it
was in her best interest, and Paul's, to use the legends. That was what
they were created for.....

WM

>
> WM

On Jul 16, 11:16 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
wrote:
> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
> > Freakzilla wrote:
>
> >> On Jul 16, 3:40 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> Wild Monkshood wrote:
>
> >>>> Freakzilla wrote:
>
> >>>>> It wasn't Paul who was the master of religious manipulation, it was
> >>>>> Jessica who was an adept of the Panoplia Prophetica, the infectious
> >>>>> superstitions used by the Bene Gesserit to exploit primitive regions.
>
> >>>>    You're not quoting, so that makes it difficult to know what you are
> >>>> specifically responding to. However, just because Jessica was adept at
> >>>> religious manipulation doesn't lessen Paul's talent, natural or
> >>>> otherwise, in this regard. I don't recall her ever being described
> >>>> as an
> >>>> "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica". Wouldn't that require she be a
> >>>> member of the Missionaria Protectiva? That was never indicated that I
> >>>> know of, but I will concede that she knew something of their methods..
>
> >>>        Just wanted to add that Jessica wasn't even a ReverendMother
> >>> circa
> >>> Dune, but was a B.G. Adept. I would imagine that to be either a member
> >>> of the Missionaria Protectiva or an "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica",
> >>> would require the Agony or a more elevated rank than B.G. Adept. I could
> >>> be wrong, though. Do you have any idea where that was in the text?
>
> >>> WM
>
> >>>> WM- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> "Matters cannot be allowed to continue in this way," the leader of the
> >> Bene
> >> Gesserit delegation had argued. "Surely the signs of decay have not
> >> escaped you
> >> -- you of all people! We know why you left us, but we know also how
> >> you were
> >> trained. Nothing was stinted in your education. You are an adept of
> >> the Panoplia
> >> Prophetica and you must know when the souring of a powerful religion
> >> threatens
> >> us all."
> >> ~Children of Dune
>
> >> To me that would insinuate that Jessica was trained to work in the
> >> Missionaria Protectiva.
>
> >     This is after she shared with Ramallo (sp?, their wild Reverend
> > Mother who likely passed it on then. Good catch. Remember that Jessica,
> > pre agony, commented on the "Reverend Mother" who had caused the Fremen
> > to adapt the legends and call their own religious leaders Reverend
> > Mothers. So, then, Jessica's training was likely remnants of Fremen
> > Panoplia Prophetica training. It was likely very similar to B.G.
> > Training. When Jessica returns to the B.G., there is no indication that
> > she wasn't accepted as a B.G. Reverend Mother although her route to it
> > was Fremen, not strict B.G. This would imply that is was nearly
> > identical. Of course, she might have received additional training once
> > she rejoined the B.G. Training in the above example you quote would seem
> > to imply more than that passed on through the Agony, or maybe not.
>
>         Tagging onto my own post because I didn't want to start anew thread.
>
>         This whole thread got me to thinking how duplicitous thatJessica was
> as per her manipulations. First though, why didn't the Wild Reverend
> Mothers of the Fremen know that the legends were false? They were
> offshoots from the original BG of the Missionaria Protectiva that seeded
> the legends on Dune. Didn't the manipulations transfer during the Agony?
> I can think of two possible explanations. One, it is hinted that the BG
> Reverend Mother was on Dune quite a long time ago, probably predating
> the discovery of Melange. This may have even been spelled out. I can't
> recall. Therefore the transfer may have been through the agony, but with
> the older drugs/methods. Maybe the transfer was less clean. Or,
> possibly, the Wild Reverend Mothers did know. After all, it behooved
> them and their power base to carry on with these legends. Anyway,
> regardless, Jessica knew before her agony, and afterwards. Of course, it
> was in her best interest, and Paul's, to use the legends. That was what
> they were created for.....
>
> WM
>
>
>
>
>
> > WM- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The original Sayyadinas did not have the Water of Life cerimony:

Far down the corridor, an image-voice screamed: "They denied us the
Hajj!"
Jessica saw the slave cribs on Bela Tegeuse down that inner corridor,
saw
the weeding out and the selecting that spread men to Rossak and
Harmonthep.
Scenes of brutal ferocity opened to her like the petals of a terrible
flower.
And she saw the thread of the past carried by Sayyadina after
Sayyadina--first
by word of mouth, hidden in the sand chanteys, then refined through
their own
Reverend Mothers with the discovery of the poison drug on Rossak . . .
and now
developed to subtle strengthen Arrakis in the discovery of the Water
of Life.
Far down the inner corridor, another voice screamed: "Never to
forgive!
Never to forget!"

The BG MP must have planeted the Fremen superstitions before Rossak,
or Jessica would have remembered it.

OR...

The BG MP who planted the legends was not part of the tribe(s) and
didn't Share.

On Jul 16, 5:53 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:
>
> <snip>
>
> > If Paul was a master a religious manipulation as mentioned by a poster
> > above, Paul would be well equipped to stop any Jihad he didn't approve of.
> > And if it was the Fremen who initiated the Jihad in Paul's name, wouldn't
> > it
> > be expected to hear an observer comment on this fact in Dune Messiah?
>
> <snip>
>
> And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest
> bit
> of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the
> jihad would
> be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They
> needed only
> the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given
> them mastery
> even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist.
>
> Hi Freakzilla,
>
> It's always great to hear from you.  :-)  Are you saying that a comment by
> an observer in Dune Messiah about Paul not initiating the Jihad himself,
> would be superfluous because Paul had a vision of a possible future with a
> Jihad started without his initiative?

No, I'm simply saying that Paul DID NOT start the Jihad, it was a
thing destined to be by the Race Consciousness. The only hand that
Paul had in it was giving the Fremen control over the Guild through
the threat of destruction of the spice.

Freakzilla wrote:
> On Jul 16, 11:16 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Wild Monkshood wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Freakzilla wrote:
>>
>>>>On Jul 16, 3:40 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>>Wild Monkshood wrote:
>>
>>>>>>Freakzilla wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>It wasn't Paul who was the master of religious manipulation, it was
>>>>>>>Jessica who was an adept of the Panoplia Prophetica, the infectious
>>>>>>>superstitions used by the Bene Gesserit to exploit primitive regions.
>>
>>>>>> You're not quoting, so that makes it difficult to know what you are
>>>>>>specifically responding to. However, just because Jessica was adept at
>>>>>>religious manipulation doesn't lessen Paul's talent, natural or
>>>>>>otherwise, in this regard. I don't recall her ever being described
>>>>>>as an
>>>>>>"adept of the Panoplia Prophetica". Wouldn't that require she be a
>>>>>>member of the Missionaria Protectiva? That was never indicated that I
>>>>>>know of, but I will concede that she knew something of their methods.
>>
>>>>> Just wanted to add that Jessica wasn't even a Reverend Mother
>>>>>circa
>>>>>Dune, but was a B.G. Adept. I would imagine that to be either a member
>>>>>of the Missionaria Protectiva or an "adept of the Panoplia Prophetica",
>>>>>would require the Agony or a more elevated rank than B.G. Adept. I could
>>>>>be wrong, though. Do you have any idea where that was in the text?
>>
>>>>>WM
>>
>>>>>>WM- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>>>- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>>>- Show quoted text -
>>
>>>>"Matters cannot be allowed to continue in this way," the leader of the
>>>>Bene
>>>>Gesserit delegation had argued. "Surely the signs of decay have not
>>>>escaped you
>>>>-- you of all people! We know why you left us, but we know also how
>>>>you were
>>>>trained. Nothing was stinted in your education. You are an adept of
>>>>the Panoplia
>>>>Prophetica and you must know when the souring of a powerful religion
>>>>threatens
>>>>us all."
>>>>~Children of Dune
>>
>>>>To me that would insinuate that Jessica was trained to work in the
>>>>Missionaria Protectiva.
>>
>>> This is after she shared with Ramallo (sp?, their wild Reverend
>>>Mother who likely passed it on then. Good catch. Remember that Jessica,
>>>pre agony, commented on the "Reverend Mother" who had caused the Fremen
>>>to adapt the legends and call their own religious leaders Reverend
>>>Mothers. So, then, Jessica's training was likely remnants of Fremen
>>>Panoplia Prophetica training. It was likely very similar to B.G.
>>>Training. When Jessica returns to the B.G., there is no indication that
>>>she wasn't accepted as a B.G. Reverend Mother although her route to it
>>>was Fremen, not strict B.G. This would imply that is was nearly
>>>identical. Of course, she might have received additional training once
>>>she rejoined the B.G. Training in the above example you quote would seem
>>>to imply more than that passed on through the Agony, or maybe not.
>>
>> Tagging onto my own post because I didn't want to start a new thread.
>>
>> This whole thread got me to thinking how duplicitous that Jessica was
>>as per her manipulations. First though, why didn't the Wild Reverend
>>Mothers of the Fremen know that the legends were false? They were
>>offshoots from the original BG of the Missionaria Protectiva that seeded
>>the legends on Dune. Didn't the manipulations transfer during the Agony?
>>I can think of two possible explanations. One, it is hinted that the BG
>>Reverend Mother was on Dune quite a long time ago, probably predating
>>the discovery of Melange. This may have even been spelled out. I can't
>>recall. Therefore the transfer may have been through the agony, but with
>>the older drugs/methods. Maybe the transfer was less clean. Or,
>>possibly, the Wild Reverend Mothers did know. After all, it behooved
>>them and their power base to carry on with these legends. Anyway,
>>regardless, Jessica knew before her agony, and afterwards. Of course, it
>>was in her best interest, and Paul's, to use the legends. That was what
>>they were created for.....
>>
>>WM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>WM- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> The original Sayyadinas did not have the Water of Life cerimony:
>
> Far down the corridor, an image-voice screamed: "They denied us the
> Hajj!"
> Jessica saw the slave cribs on Bela Tegeuse down that inner corridor,
> saw
> the weeding out and the selecting that spread men to Rossak and
> Harmonthep.
> Scenes of brutal ferocity opened to her like the petals of a terrible
> flower.
> And she saw the thread of the past carried by Sayyadina after
> Sayyadina--first
> by word of mouth, hidden in the sand chanteys, then refined through
> their own
> Reverend Mothers with the discovery of the poison drug on Rossak . . .
> and now
> developed to subtle strengthen Arrakis in the discovery of the Water
> of Life.
> Far down the inner corridor, another voice screamed: "Never to
> forgive!
> Never to forget!"
>
> The BG MP must have planeted the Fremen superstitions before Rossak,
> or Jessica would have remembered it.
>
> OR...
>
> The BG MP who planted the legends was not part of the tribe(s) and
> didn't Share.

Good points. Jessica recognized the patterns before the Agony, but, as
you point out, it is likely that the specific memories weren't passed on
for the reasons the text gives.

WM

"Freakzilla" <jlkiv@comcast.net> wrote

<snip>

>
> Hi Freakzilla,
>
> It's always great to hear from you. :-) Are you saying that a comment by
> an observer in Dune Messiah about Paul not initiating the Jihad himself,
> would be superfluous because Paul had a vision of a possible future with a
> Jihad started without his initiative?

"No, I'm simply saying that Paul DID NOT start the Jihad, it was a
thing destined to be by the Race Consciousness. The only hand that
Paul had in it was giving the Fremen control over the Guild through
the threat of destruction of the spice."

You seem very convinced. But these various ideas are not necessarily
mutually exclusive. For example, Race Consciousness could be one factor
among many, and an emperor's action or inaction would also be relevant.

I recall Mohiam mentioning that Paul used the Fremen to enforce "sanctions"
on the populace. Now, a sanction implies a provocation, and a provocation
is something that Paul, the emperor, would respond to.

Freakzilla said,

> On Jul 16, 5:53 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > If Paul was a master a religious manipulation as mentioned by a poster
> > > above, Paul would be well equipped to stop any Jihad he didn't approve of.
> > > And if it was the Fremen who initiated the Jihad in Paul's name, wouldn't
> > > it
> > > be expected to hear an observer comment on this fact in Dune Messiah?
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest
> > bit
> > of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the
> > jihad would
> > be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They
> > needed only
> > the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given
> > them mastery
> > even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist.
> >
> > Hi Freakzilla,
> >
> > It's always great to hear from you.  :-)  Are you saying that a comment by
> > an observer in Dune Messiah about Paul not initiating the Jihad himself,
> > would be superfluous because Paul had a vision of a possible future with a
> > Jihad started without his initiative?
>
> No, I'm simply saying that Paul DID NOT start the Jihad, it was a
> thing destined to be by the Race Consciousness. The only hand that
> Paul had in it was giving the Fremen control over the Guild through
> the threat of destruction of the spice.

Having just finished (just a few hours ago) re-reading Dune, Paul did what he
could to stop the jihad as it was his desire to prevent it. Paul came to realize
that the jihad was going to happen whether he was around or not.
--
Fred

> "Freakzilla" <jlkiv@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:9c2153ab-e810-4024-874d->
> de91a737e34c@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 15, 12:22 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> wrote:

[snip]

> IMO it all boiled down to desire for revenge against
> the Emperor and the Harkonnens for the death of his father, that was
> more important to him.

bingo

On Jul 22, 8:09 am, "Spicelon" <toxicdistort...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:9c2153ab-e810-4024-874d->
> > de91a737e...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jul 15, 12:22 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > IMO it all boiled down to desire for revenge against
> > the Emperor and the Harkonnens for the death of his father, that was
> > more important to him.
>
> bingo

What the hell are you doing here??? LOL

I don't totally blame Paul for choosing revenge/jihad vs. surrender to
thte Harkonnens, it was how he was raised, as a noble. Society was to
blame.

In article <RYednbiOAsodphjVnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Fred" <>
says...
> Freakzilla said,
>
> > On Jul 16, 5:53 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > If Paul was a master a religious manipulation as mentioned by a poster
> > > > above, Paul would be well equipped to stop any Jihad he didn't approve of.
> > > > And if it was the Fremen who initiated the Jihad in Paul's name, wouldn't
> > > > it
> > > > be expected to hear an observer comment on this fact in Dune Messiah?
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest
> > > bit
> > > of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the
> > > jihad would
> > > be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They
> > > needed only
> > > the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given
> > > them mastery
> > > even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist.
> > >
> > > Hi Freakzilla,
> > >
> > > It's always great to hear from you.  :-)  Are you saying that a comment by
> > > an observer in Dune Messiah about Paul not initiating the Jihad himself,
> > > would be superfluous because Paul had a vision of a possible future with a
> > > Jihad started without his initiative?
> >
> > No, I'm simply saying that Paul DID NOT start the Jihad, it was a
> > thing destined to be by the Race Consciousness. The only hand that
> > Paul had in it was giving the Fremen control over the Guild through
> > the threat of destruction of the spice.
>
> Having just finished (just a few hours ago) re-reading Dune, Paul did what he
> could to stop the jihad as it was his desire to prevent it. Paul came to realize
> that the jihad was going to happen whether he was around or not.

It might be his desire to avoid it, but it takes a backseat to his
desires to live, to avenge his father, and to reclaim his position.

At several points Paul enumerates what would be needed to avert the
Jihad, and every time finds the cost too high. The only action he ever
takes in an attempt to go against his vision is calling himself "Paul-
Muad'dib" instead of "Muad'dib". Hurray.

He keeps deluding himself, hoping he could somehow find a way to avert
the jihad without paying the cost required (and the cost keeps rising
the longer he delays), and puts it off until he finds himself way past
the point of no return. Then he justifies his moral cowardice by
concluding the jihad was inevitable.

--
Juho Julkunen

In article <6ad432ed-5025-4698-8b3f-
af606b5262aa@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, jlkiv@comcast.net says...
> On Jul 22, 8:09 am, "Spicelon" <toxicdistort...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:9c2153ab-e810-4024-874d->
> > > de91a737e...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jul 15, 12:22 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > IMO it all boiled down to desire for revenge against
> > > the Emperor and the Harkonnens for the death of his father, that was
> > > more important to him.
> >
> > bingo
>
> What the hell are you doing here??? LOL
>
> I don't totally blame Paul for choosing revenge/jihad vs. surrender to
> thte Harkonnens, it was how he was raised, as a noble. Society was to
> blame.

It always is, isn't it. "Sixty billion strangers dead or the honour of
my House? OF COURSE the honour of my House."

--
Juho Julkunen

On Jul 22, 5:12 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <6ad432ed-5025-4698-8b3f-
> af606b526...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, jl...@comcast.net says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 22, 8:09 am, "Spicelon" <toxicdistort...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:9c2153ab-e810-4024-874d->
> > > > de91a737e...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jul 15, 12:22 pm, Wild Monkshood <Wild_Monksh...@windstream.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > [snip]
>
> > > > IMO it all boiled down to desire for revenge against
> > > > the Emperor and the Harkonnens for the death of his father, that was
> > > > more important to him.
>
> > > bingo
>
> > What the hell are you doing here??? LOL
>
> > I don't totally blame Paul for choosing revenge/jihad vs. surrender to
> > thte Harkonnens, it was how he was raised, as a noble.  Society was to
> > blame.
>
> It always is, isn't it. "Sixty billion strangers dead or the honour of
> my House? OF COURSE the honour of my House."
>
> --
> Juho Julkunen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

sixty-ONE billion!

Juho Julkunen said,

> In article <RYednbiOAsodphjVnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Fred" <>
> says...
> > Freakzilla said,
> >
> > > On Jul 16, 5:53 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > > If Paul was a master a religious manipulation as mentioned by a poster
> > > > > above, Paul would be well equipped to stop any Jihad he didn't approve
> > > > > of. And if it was the Fremen who initiated the Jihad in Paul's name,
> > > > > wouldn't it
> > > > > be expected to hear an observer comment on this fact in Dune Messiah?
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest
> > > > bit
> > > > of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the
> > > > jihad would
> > > > be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They
> > > > needed only
> > > > the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given
> > > > them mastery
> > > > even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist.
> > > >
> > > > Hi Freakzilla,
> > > >
> > > > It's always great to hear from you.  :-)  Are you saying that a comment by
> > > > an observer in Dune Messiah about Paul not initiating the Jihad himself,
> > > > would be superfluous because Paul had a vision of a possible future with a
> > > > Jihad started without his initiative?
> > >
> > > No, I'm simply saying that Paul DID NOT start the Jihad, it was a
> > > thing destined to be by the Race Consciousness. The only hand that
> > > Paul had in it was giving the Fremen control over the Guild through
> > > the threat of destruction of the spice.
> >
> > Having just finished (just a few hours ago) re-reading Dune, Paul did what he
> > could to stop the jihad as it was his desire to prevent it. Paul came to
> > realize that the jihad was going to happen whether he was around or not.
>
> It might be his desire to avoid it, but it takes a backseat to his
> desires to live, to avenge his father, and to reclaim his position.
>
> At several points Paul enumerates what would be needed to avert the
> Jihad, and every time finds the cost too high. The only action he ever
> takes in an attempt to go against his vision is calling himself "Paul-
> Muad'dib" instead of "Muad'dib". Hurray.
>
> He keeps deluding himself, hoping he could somehow find a way to avert
> the jihad without paying the cost required (and the cost keeps rising
> the longer he delays), and puts it off until he finds himself way past
> the point of no return. Then he justifies his moral cowardice by
> concluding the jihad was inevitable.

Well, being 17 I guess he could delude himself. <g> In my recent reading, it
appears that when he runs into Gurney, all hell breaks loose. He was headed to
visit with his family and the next thing we know, he is attacking Arakeen. I
would say Halleck was a bad influence. <g>

--
Fred